Open 83 - Polygamist Mafia (Game over!) before 628

[SpyreX]

@Adel/Spyrex...
I would very much like to hear either/both your takes on the situation we are in at present.
1. If Gimbo/SSF are not to be lynched, what are your alternatives?
2. If there are alternatives, what are your reasons?

1.) If Gimbo is not to be lynched, I'm going to be very, very sad. I dont want to play the WIFOM dance with it tomorrow too and, personally, if he's not lynched today I'm going to be very wroth. I'd mentioned before being torn between Firestarter / Knight, but my opinion has now shifted to Knight/Forbidden.

2.) Alrighty, here we go.

Knight:
Through his posts he has said being willing to vote for:
Firestarter/Nameless
Chelseafan/Chensi
Gimbo/SSF
SpyreX/Adel

Funny thing about that is, it leaves only ONE other group. So, if Knight is scum, I'm calling the Knight/Forbid/Harvey/Zeek faction.

Also, of course, there was the very poorly thoughtout plan regarding flea. I've explained that and if we need more, well I can.

This alone, of course, wouldn't have been enough. But then we've got some strange play by his partner as well:

Zeek/Harvey are only mentioned once (FoS) in all the posts.
She tells her partner she wouldn't endorse a vote on me (which is good and all, but)
She shows serious exasperation with Knight involving his plan (which, again, makes sense but)
But, the kicker, and this one (honestly) is what will make my scummeter go into the red:

If the town decides a Gimbo lynch is the best move, I am perfectly willing to revote him.

This statement, of course, rubs me absolutely the wrong way. It's not a matter of "the town" - if you have feelings run with them. Yes, right now I dont have a vote up for Gimbo but you can bet your bottom dollar its going back up there once we've had enough time for discussion - regardless of what the "town" thinks.

In this game the only person I'm willing to follow, to a degree, is my lover because she's smart and sexy... wait, no, its because I KNOW she is town. The only one. Aside from that I'm going to stick with who I think is scum and I'll fight it tooth and nail.

Following along doesn't help the town, especially in this setup.

[eldarad]

Vote Count

Gimbo (4) -

KNIGHT42, Firestarter, Nameless, ZeekLTK

Forbiddanlight (1) -

chenhsi

Adel (1) -

Gimbo

chenhsi (1) -

somestrangeflea

Chelseafan (1) -

Adel

Not voting (4) -

Chelseafan, SpyreX, Harvey Pew, forbiddanlight

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

[forbiddanlight]

#6 - agrees with Gimbo that mass-claiming is a good idea.

You hadn't claimed scum then. Seemed like a good idea.

# 7 - 'completely' disagrees with Gimbo's plan. Claims Knight as lover saying that she'll 'catch hell from him' when I clearly recall Knight saying that HE is the one waiting for his partner to claim/not claim....These 2 don't seem sure that they are a couple.

Actually, I don't see anything where he says he's waiting for me to claim. If it exists, I honestly missed it. So, really, I was just backing up my previous assertation a mass claim is good. And, I disagreed with Knight's plan IIRC.

#10 - Gimbo should get lynched regardless of alignment per LAL

Not precisely. Really, claiming scum is just an auto lynch in my opinion. The WIFOM is too ridiculous to let a scum claimer live, and definitely not to lylo.

#11 - says that she thought my plan was a good idea in post#6 because 'she was tired'

Guilty, but to be fair, I had been up til 4 AM that day.

#12 - doesn't want to be the 'odd one out' on my wagon, thus she wants Knight to vote with her.

Even if I don't like your plan, there is the fact that being the odd one out DOES make it easier for scum to blend in if you ARE town by some RIDICULOUS offchance. Thusly, I'm screwing the results by being odd.

#14 - doesn't think that lovers should always agree, yet forces Knight to vote like her Rolling Eyes

I suppose my phrasing was forceful. I'd prefer Knight think for himself, but it does seem we both agree you were scummy as hell.

#17 - again she doesn't like to be the odd one out because if I flip town, she'll get 'scrutinized' by town

Did I say that? Well, either way, if I did say that, it's still true. Wasted scrutiny. But, if you really want to look at me hard, I have nothing to hide.

#20 - believes that its unthinkable for scums to bus each other (in regard to my comment that Adel might be bussing Knight with that vote since she doesn't make a case on Knight but still votes Knight)

It's true, isn't it? If scum start a wagon on fellow scum somehow, then they've shot themselves in the foot. It's very risky to throw bussing votes out.

#21 - Unvotes Gimbo because everyone else is doing so...so you're going with the flow?

This is bullshit and you know it. You were one lover pair away from lynch. Since the town decided to give you time so that everyone could weigh in, I wasn't going to let a single lover pair hammer you. My unvote forces it back to L-3, meaning a lover pair and someone else would have to hammer you, thus giving us enough breathing room to discuss the case.

Forbid: please post your thoughts on my recap/thought of you in this game. No wifom/omgus/jokes/smileys necessary. Thanks.

So, a guy walks into a bar...DAMN, that musta hurt

OMG, GIMBO! YOU SUCK!

HoS:Gimbo

Hmm...well, Gimbo claimed scum, so if he IS scum, then he's using WIFOM to avoid a lynch, but if he ISN'T scum...he (ad infinitum)

I'm done .

[forbiddanlight]

But, the kicker, and this one (honestly) is what will make my scummeter go into the red:

So, in other words, you take other actions that aren't really scummy to bolster a case that really only has that one point. Good scumhunting there. As for the Zeek Harvey thing, I haven't really noticed much scumminess from Harvey. I could be wrong about that, but Zeek is the only one that popped out at me. I still think it's anti town to ignore the wishes of the town, even if you put more credence in what your lover says. You are right, Knight42 is the only one I know is town. A whole lot of good that does me right now. So, listening to the overall town is wise I think. If you really want me to put Gimbo back at L-2, it's fine, but if a lover pair suddenly jumps on Gimbo, there goes our discussion. So, I'll stick where I'm at unless Knight OR the majority of the town asks me to put my vote on.

[SpyreX]

Woo, a nice heavily defensive response.

Your PARTNER was the one who I really thought was scummy - however, when you piped in with the "I'll do what the town wants." It reinforced my feelings about your group as a whole.

I still think it's anti town to ignore the wishes of the town, even if you put more credence in what your lover says.

How is it anti-town to stop, what you feel, is a bad move by the town? Was it anti town for me to not want to claim even when the pressure was put on in such a scummy manner?

Considering, taking group aside, 50% of the people who would be the "town" are scum yes you're damn right I'm going to do what I feel is right and not what the town thinks.

If you really want me to put Gimbo back at L-2, it's fine, but if a lover pair suddenly jumps on Gimbo, there goes our discussion.

I don't CARE where your vote is. I just care that you put it there with your own backing and your own reasons. Taking the vote off Gimbo is fine if you're doing it to bolster discussion. Saying you'll put it wherever the town wants isn't. We dont have power roles, or any fancy tricks - just deduction and a vote. You're saying you'll give that away to the majority.

[forbiddanlight]

Woo, a nice heavily defensive response.

Your PARTNER was the one who I really thought was scummy - however, when you piped in with the "I'll do what the town wants." It reinforced my feelings about your group as a whole.

Well of course it's defensive. I honestly have no idea what my partner is doing. Then there's the fact I was already defending against Gimbo, so might as well defend your points against me.

Considering, taking group aside, 50% of the people who would be the "town" are scum yes you're damn right I'm going to do what I feel is right and not what the town thinks.

Wrong. there are 4 scum, 12 players. Taking aside your lover pairing, that's 4/10. 40% of the town majority is scum. However, I actually see your point since I didn't even consider these numbers.

I don't CARE where your vote is. I just care that you put it there with your own backing and your own reasons. Taking the vote off Gimbo is fine if you're doing it to bolster discussion. Saying you'll put it wherever the town wants isn't. We dont have power roles, or any fancy tricks - just deduction and a vote. You're saying you'll give that away to the majority.

Ok...actually, when you've put it like that, my consideration for the towns wishes were pretty stupid, and I can even see where they are scummy. I screwed up, and thusly am not playing well. I'll start working with what I feel...in which case, I feel

VOTE: GIMBO!

.

[Gimbo]

forbid: your 'defensive response' was all talk and no reasoning. Especially your response to #12 and #17, also humour doesn't work here to deflect attention away from your scumminess.

[SpyreX]

Wrong. there are 4 scum, 12 players. Taking aside your lover pairing, that's 4/10. 40% of the town majority is scum. However, I actually see your point since I didn't even consider these numbers.

Wow, I'm bad at math. But the point was there at least. I keep thinking there's only 10 of us because I'm really smart (and some people ARENT TALKING AT ALL)

Ok...actually, when you've put it like that, my consideration for the towns wishes were pretty stupid, and I can even see where they are scummy. I screwed up, and thusly am not playing well. I'll start working with what I feel...in which case, I feel VOTE: GIMBO!.

OMG BACKPEDALING KEKEKEKEKE

Just kidding, of course. I'm glad you see what I mean. You two are still large on the radar (especially because of your partner) but the fact you saw my point helps me some instead of fighting it.

[forbiddanlight]

forbid: your 'defensive response' was all talk and no reasoning. Especially your response to #12 and #17, also humour doesn't work here to deflect attention away from your scumminess.

Actually, you were telling me what to do. I have a rebellious streak. That last part pissed me off. Well, what reasoning do you expect? Really, you've claimed scum, and now you've backpedalled from being hammered, and now you are pressing another case that you probably know is bullshit. Just...no. I mean, I admit, some of my play has been bad. But I still think most of us realize no matter how much we address that now, you are the only viable lynch option because of the WIFOM you caused. Now, if you all decide to kill me tomorrow, it's wrong, and will lose us the game, but it's actually understandable. However, I don't understand how ANYONE could risk letting Gimbo live to lylo. Now, I'm pretty sure Gimbo is scum, but this post is mostly from the perspective that we might actually have a D2. I really don't know what you want me to say. All I can say is that I've screwed up, Knight screwed up worse, and now we are up for a lynch that will lose the town the game. I'll try to do a better job defending myself or whatever, but really, I don't know what you are looking for.

[forbiddanlight]

Just kidding, of course. Razz I'm glad you see what I mean. You two are still large on the radar (especially because of your partner) but the fact you saw my point helps me some instead of fighting it.

If we lose the game because of Knight's actions, I'm gonna be pissed. I'm half tempted to say lynch us today so you don't kill us on lylo, but given what Gimbo did with the scum claim, that's no longer a luxury we have. Both Knight and I both have to clean our game up now, or we've screwed the town. I'll do what I can.

[Gimbo]

forbid please give your case on me besides my claim, thnx.

[forbiddanlight]

k. My case is

Gimbo claims to be scum on whatever post he did that on and claims his lover is somestrangeflea.

That's it, and a lot of intuition. The unfortunate kind I have trouble explaining. Look, I'll do a reread either tonight or tomorrow, and probably have a lot better case on you then. For now, I picked up on something that I'm not entirely sure what it is. It's probably also that part about how you seemed fine with being killed, then decided you shouldn't be hammered. But, I think there is more. I don't have time for a reread right now though, as I leave soon. So, I'll get back to you soon on that, no later than tomorrow.

[ZeekLTK]

forbidden, your reaction to a simple recap that I did is rather alarming. All I did was put up a recap so everyone could see how I read the game and so I can scan that over again a few times before drawing conclusions.

All I did was summarize what happened, the fact that you think this makes you look so bad speaks more about how your play makes you look bad than how I described it.

Look at some of the things you quoted. Especially the last one.

You and Knight both talked about voting for Gimbo and then you both did so (in successive posts). How on earth is that me trying to make you look bad by pointing it out? Did you read that and realize it stuck out as something fishy, so you felt like you needed to attack it?

Look at page 9, Posts #205 and #206 - how is my description of that (that you and Knight agree to both vote Gimbo and thus do so) biased at all?

Maybe, as scum, you just have a guilty conscience - so you are paranoid that anything written about you may cast you in a bad light and others will see you as scum?

---

Also I didn't really notice this before, but after looking back at you more specifically...

This is your FIRST reaction to Gimbo's claim of scum:

Ugh...I'm gonna catch hell from him for admitting this, but I am KNIGHT42s lover. To be quite honest, I completely disagree with his plan since it DOESN'T lead to any conclusive evidence.

I'm really confused as to what the hell Gimbo is trying to do, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Also, it was a random vote on chelsea, but

my lover is voting there as well. sticking there for now as per Gimbo's page 3 instructions

. I also FoS:Nameless for being on board for pair reveals before Gimbo's gambit, and now avoiding doing so. If I missed someone else doing this, please let me know.

You say it will be interesting to see how it plays out, aka you want to wait to see what everyone else makes of it. Besides that, you also cite that you are voting based on what Gimbo's instructions...

Then later you say:

Knight,

vote

Gimbo. This reminds me far too much of another game I played elsewhere. They didn't claim scum, but they did try to use a similar WIFOM argument and coasted to the end on it, resulting in a scum win. I'd rather lynch Gimbo now. And as they say, LAL. If he's town, he's lying, if he's scum, we need to lynch him anyway.

This is very different from your initial reaction of "let's see what happens" and following Gimbo. Now all of a sudden you decide to go against him and bring up something from a past game (why didn't you bring this up initially?) and then try to quantify it with "LAL" (again, why didn't you bring this up initially?).

[forbiddanlight]

This is very different from your initial reaction of "let's see what happens" and following Gimbo. Now all of a sudden you decide to go against him and bring up something from a past game (why didn't you bring this up initially?) and then try to quantify it with "LAL" (again, why didn't you bring this up initially?).

Tired. I've explained several times when I posted that I had been up til 4 AM that night (morning?).

You and Knight both talked about voting for Gimbo and then you both did so (in successive posts). How on earth is that me trying to make you look bad by pointing it out? Did you read that and realize it stuck out as something fishy, so you felt like you needed to attack it?

Look at page 9, Posts #205 and #206 - how is my description of that (that you and Knight agree to both vote Gimbo and thus do so) biased at all?

It was biased given the context of the other posts I pointed out:

-For some reason forbidden seems to think Gimbo's plan (from his "I'm scum post" is actually a good plan) and says that since Knight (forbidden's lover) is voting differently then by lynching Gimbo he would be the odd man out, thus he unvotes for Gimbo...

-Then forbidden and Knight both agree to vote Gimbo and both do so...

This is phrased in a way that makes it look bad. Also, I still never said it was a good plan, just that I didn't understand it and wanted to see what would happen, while somewhat sleep deprived.

Now, if you didn't mean to be biased (which I don't buy), prove it. Otherwise, it seems a lot like the things you were saying about me at least, and possibly others were attempts to cast them in a bad light. Normal analyses are generally done unbiasedly, with thoughts AFTER the various observations. This was just...a mess.

[ZeekLTK]

In fact the only accusations I made during my summary were against Adel/SpyreX about how they BOTH kept bringing up the fact that in the last game it was scum who proposed the mass-claim - making me wonder if they decided before this game that they would oppose mass claims and just attack everyone who supports them, citing the last game.

As scum, this would be a decent strategy because if they can convince a couple other townies that "the people who want to mass-claim are scum" just because it happened in the last game then they can get a mislynch and even after they are proven wrong they can just say "oh, well we were basing it on the last game, I guess we were just wrong" to try to avoid any suspicion/backlash...

[ZeekLTK]

Well I assumed that you thought it was a "good plan" because you referenced it numerous times and even changed your vote on occasion to coincide with the "plan"... again I don't see how this is biased because it's what actually happened.

[forbiddanlight]

I think what might have happened is I meant one thing, and you said another that made it look bad, but was a valid interpretation of what I said. However, I want to do a reread before I am completely sold on that.

[SpyreX]

In fact the only accusations I made during my summary were against Adel/SpyreX about how they BOTH kept bringing up the fact that in the last game it was scum who proposed the mass-claim - making me wonder if they decided before this game that they would oppose mass claims and just attack everyone who supports them, citing the last game.

We both have had other reasons as well, that just plays a part.

Adel mentioned how by not partitioning off into groups you leave room for the scum to screw up in the early stages before they've finalized how they are going to pair off (in the chance they didn't before the game started). Also, of course, by not announcing your partner it's easier to look for odder trends in voting.

MY problems with this plan involved Gimbo saying he was scum (this still hurts) and telling the town members to vote as a pair, period. Neither of these things I feel help the town and I'd like to think I've been pretty clear about that.

The fact it was brought up as some kind of amazing pro-town plan when, of course, the last time it was brought up was BY scum was, really, just icing on the cake of failure in it.

[ZeekLTK]

I agree that it was a bad plan, that's why in my summary I pointed out that forbidden was following it, because she was the only one who was treating it like "I have to vote with my lover or else I'll be seen as scummy" when clearly no one else (except for maybe Gimbo) felt this way.

But I also felt like you and (especially) Adel brought up the whole "scum did the mass claim last game" thing a little too much. A couple of references and I probably wouldn't have noticed, but there were so many it made me start to wonder why you two were making such a big deal about it (especially after eventually realizing that you two were lovers).

[SpyreX]

My replies to it, over and over, were because Gimbo was giving the vibe that part of his master plan is that announcing your lover was such a pro-town move. As its been proven, it wasn't and isn't.

I think, if ANYTHING, I've been far more apt to point out how the PLAN was scummy versus just the fact the lovers part was done by scum before.

[Nameless]

Um...a bussing vote for knight...waaaait a second here. One mafia dies, all of them die. There's no point in bussing in this game, obviously.

This isn't really true. The Mafia can (and probably WILL with that kind of attitude) still bus, they'll just find a reason to change their vote before reaching a lynch ...

Well, I'm convinced, the scum-detecting prowess of the ascending colon is irrefutable. I will just mention that I have played/replaced in three mafia games so far and been lynched in

every

one and been town in

every

one

and

correctly voted scum in two out of three - a fine record, I think.

NO. BAD. Whether you're town or not is random and that's not anywhere near a "fine" enough record to prove any kind of experience, being lynched 3/3 times is a

bad

thing and even if it weren't that would be an entirely different logical fallacy. Not to mention this came from, what, somebody stating a gut feeling?

FOS: Harvey Pew

why should I worry about someone's gut when they have a case of the scums?

I do not like this post ... at all

Well, I LOLed.

My replies to it, over and over, were because Gimbo was giving the vibe that part of his master plan is that announcing your lover was such a pro-town move. As its been proven, it wasn't and isn't.

... Okay, just for reference here, WHEN and HOW was this "proven", exactly?

Final note: I dislike Forbid's posts 283 and 284. They don't add anything, and don't seem to have much point other than protesting how sorry she is and how much harder she'll try and how she really is town, honest.

[Gimbo]

Final note: I dislike Forbid's posts 283 and 284. They don't add anything, and don't seem to have much point other than protesting how sorry she is and how much harder she'll try and how she really is town, honest.

ditto and

[Adel]

I find it interesting that SSF and chensi have been lurking.

I find it even more interesting that so many people unvoted Gimbo so quickly. If they were willing to lynch Gimbo they should be just as willing to lynch Chelseafan. The is a chance of Chelseafan being scum with Gimbo being town, but there is no chance of Gimbo being scum if Chelseafan is scum.

Obv, if Chelseafan is town then Gimbo is town. By lynching Chelseafan we either win or walk into Day 2 with one lover couple being confirmed as town.

I think the most interesting thing is that Gimbo hasn't lept at the chance to push for the lynch of Chelseafan.

~~~~

To be clear, the major reason I wanted to put off a massclaim was to allow the chance of one scum changing his mind (or even forgetting!) about who to claim as his lover. An early claim "locks" the scum pseudo-lover pairs in and helps prevent later mistakes.

~~~

So why aren't people voting for Chelseafan?

[Adel]

also let's for argument sake, say you are a scum: What would you do when you are forced into agreeing to a mass-claim, how will you interact with your scumbuddies after making a lover claim with 1 of your buddies?

During the pregame we would determine who was going to claim lover with whom. I would go along with an early massclaim, keep a low profile, posting more than 30% of other players, just enough to avoid being identified as a lurker. I would also go along with the first reasonable wagon, or exploit an early mistake by another player, with the goal of getting the first real wagon to go through to lynch.

I'll continue to decline to respond to the interaction part of your question, because I am actively looking for certain types of interaction, and answering your question would help the scum more than help the town identify and lynch the scum.

[Adel]

But I also felt like you and (especially) Adel brought up the whole "scum did the mass claim last game" thing a little too much. A couple of references and I probably wouldn't have noticed, but there were so many it made me start to wonder why you two were making such a big deal about it (especially after eventually realizing that you two were lovers).

During the pregame I laid out what I was bahavior I was going to be looking for. Pushing for the early massclaim was the big easy one to spot. A simple skim of the first game would leave a person with the impression that the massclaim was pro-town and started by town in that game, just as Gimbo claimed, and we had to repeat ourselves (and continue to have to do so) in order for the facts to become clear to the rest of the town.