Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[armlx]

@Arm: re your list of three reasons, it's also possible he's a townie playing in the BJ/JDodge manner. More people should do this, actually, so that cops can feel free to breadcrumb.

Yeah, but the issue is often people are wrong about their logic and doing that is just harmful. Those people can get away with it because they know what they are doing.

[forbiddanlight]

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

You should know how much a summary opens people's eyes. It's as much for me as it is for everyone. The fact that I SEPARATE my thoughts from the summary, meaning all you really have to read is the thoughts section if you want a tl;dr version, and also my list of suspects, should show that I genuinely consider that a good move to get my thoughts together and also tell my opinions of everyone with evidential backup. But, whatever, some people don't like megaposts, and I can see where they'd be scummy. I just still felt the need to do it to get my thoughts together.

[StrangerCoug]

IGMEOY: armlx

Way to be polite about it.

(Note: I don't object to your saying we shouldn't discuss the vig, as I tried to avoid talking about it as well. What I object to is the way you said it.)

Impoliteness is

definitely

not a scumtell.

Hence why it's not an FoS. That's me giving him a dirty look.

What IAUN said, and it definitely got everyone to stop talking about it, am I right?

Apparently.

Vigs are useless anyway. There, I said it.

HoS: Lowell

for calling a powerful pro-town power role useless.

[forbiddanlight]

That's an opinion, Coug. It doesn't affect his alignment either way. And in the end, discuss it after game. Seriously, you seem to be panicking, throwing accusations around for such little things. If I weren't already voting you I'd vote you now. and an "I've got my eye on you" still indicates suspicion. If it's not scummy, why are you looking at him?

[The Fonz]

Coug:

1 Why are you HoSing someone for a game theory opinion?
2 Why are you HoSing at all when your vote is currently sitting idle?
3 Would you say it is fair to describe your play today as jumping, tarzan-style, from popular wagon to popular wagon?

[roflcopter]

Some people appear to be quite blind to what seems quite obviously a protown attempt to get the game moving by rofl with the arm/strife thing.

<3 <3 <3!

Rofl 62: WTF? No reason whatsoever to claim like that.

</3

[StrangerCoug]

That's an opinion, Coug. It doesn't affect his alignment either way. And in the end, discuss it after game. Seriously, you seem to be panicking, throwing accusations around for such little things. If I weren't already voting you I'd vote you now. and an "I've got my eye on you" still indicates suspicion. If it's not scummy, why are you looking at him?

As I said, he wasn't polite in his post. I don't think IGMEOY was the best way to go about it, but I wanted to get his attention.

Coug:

1 Why are you HoSing someone for a game theory opinion?
2 Why are you HoSing at all when your vote is currently sitting idle?
3 Would you say it is fair to describe your play today as jumping, tarzan-style, from popular wagon to popular wagon?

1. If it's an opinion, it's a harsh one, and he didn't explain why he thinks so.
2. Because I don't feel that the comment, in and of itself, warrants a vote.
3. I have admitted to bandwagoning, so it makes some sense.

[Korts]

K, I've been working on the field all day, and I just woke up from sleep, so don't expect me to post coherently today...

[armlx]

3. I have admitted to bandwagoning, so it makes some sense.

Not valid reasoning. Just saying "I band wagon" and doing it does not give you a free pass to do so.

[The Fonz]

1. If it's an opinion, it's a harsh one, and he didn't explain why he thinks so.

And the reason for this is we're trying not to get into a discussion of whether vigging like that is good, to avoid outing the vig!

2. Because I don't feel that the comment, in and of itself, warrants a vote.

Then what does? At this stage of a game, you should be voting your top suspect.

3. I have admitted to bandwagoning, so it makes some sense.

Bandwagonning is a lot more effective when you use your vote. Like so:

unvote, Vote SC

What you seem to have been doing is throwing FOSes around like confetti, which I don't think is helpful to town.

[strife220]

362 is a VERY good point. Explanation, please, strife.

364: You really think it's scummy to disagree with the majority? Besides, vig-directing is not really scummy at all, as opposed to doc directing.

Disagreeing with the majority is fine, but trying to over-ride the majority is not. It looks like a defense to me when 5 players say "Vamp is definitely the best vig target" and IAUN says "GS is a very good vig target" afterwards. It's defending Vamp by trying to convince the vig to follow his suggestion over the majority's.

And I do think that directing the vig is bad. The vig knows that he is town, and thus any decision he makes should be pro-town. Unless an exceptional case can be made that the vig might not have seen himself, or a town majority advices it (in which case the vig doesn't have to worry if he's being mislead by scum), the vig should be plenty capable on his own. If he does listen to others, he's at risk of being convinced by scum to kill the player of his choice, which leaves said scum's hands blood-free of that townies death.

So, why is a single person directing the vig kill (when a 'majority' has essentially been decided) pro-town?





On a different note,

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

I don't like this kind of attack. Do you think FL typing out a summary before her suspicions was scummy? Anti-town? She did give her top suspects and nailed down an opinion on just about every player. I find it to be more than 'reaching' to attack her for that.

[Rogueben]

vamparific has requested that he be replaced. I'm trying to find a replacement today but otherwise it may have to wait until after the weekend.

[armlx]

So, why is a single person directing the vig kill (when a 'majority' has essentially been decided) pro-town?

It isn't. If we want to direct the vig, it should be a full town decision aka second lynch once we already decide on the first.

[The Fonz]

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

You should know how much a summary opens people's eyes. It's as much for me as it is for everyone. The fact that I SEPARATE my thoughts from the summary, .

Well, quite obviously, when I said that it was too long and didn't read it, it meant that I didn't read it, so I didn't see your 'thoughts.' But regardless- if you want to take notes, do it in a notepad file. Life is too short to read megaposts, and also, there's this insidious habit on MS of going, 'Oooh, (s)he made a really really long post, she's clearly analysing deeply, must be town then.' Which is a) wrong, and b) deeply annoying, since it causes them to proliferate. Lingustic dreadnaughts suck all the fun outta mafia imho.

Beyond that, I just don't think it's protown to make a list of all the players. Think about it- if everyone did it, then the mafia would have a perfect picture of who isn't really under suspicion from anyone, to make a better informed nightkill.

362 is a VERY good point. Explanation, please, strife.

364: You really think it's scummy to disagree with the majority? Besides, vig-directing is not really scummy at all, as opposed to doc directing.

Disagreeing with the majority is fine, but trying to over-ride the majority is not. It looks like a defense to me when 5 players say "Vamp is definitely the best vig target" and IAUN says "GS is a very good vig target" afterwards. It's defending Vamp by trying to convince the vig to follow his suggestion over the majority's.

So, again, you're taking issue with expressing a different opinion to a number of other players (not actually a majority).

And I do think that directing the vig is bad. The vig knows that he is town, and thus any decision he makes should be pro-town. Unless an exceptional case can be made that the vig might not have seen himself, or a town majority advices it (in which case the vig doesn't have to worry if he's being mislead by scum), the vig should be plenty capable on his own. If he does listen to others, he's at risk of being convinced by scum to kill the player of his choice, which leaves said scum's hands blood-free of that townies death.

Sure, but what's wrong with expressing an opinion on who needs to die? It's not like the vig is bound to listen. The only real problem i see with it is that if everyone expresses an opinion on who to vig, the vig basically has to either lie, or gives himself away by his choice. For instance, if, say, armlx says that Greasy Spot would be a horrible vig choice, and the vig then kills GS, it's pretty obvious it isn't armlx, isn't it?

You can paint this how you like, but your argument still boils down to 'It is scummy to express a preference for the vig kill, but only if you disagree with the most popular opinion.'

So, why is a single person directing the vig kill (when a 'majority' has essentially been decided) pro-town?

Again, how is he in particular 'directing' it? He is giving his opinion on who a good vig target would be. There hasn't been a majority, and furthermore, in this game of mafia, it is the EFFING IDEA that people attempt to convince a majority that their ideas are correct. Majorities are not static things. What if Vamp's replacement comes in and does some really sound scumhunting? Is the vig to be bound to still kill the replacement because a handful of people voiced support for the idea earlier?

A rather more pertinent point, I think, is why Iam is suggesting a vigging, and not using his vote and tryin to convince people to wagon greasy.

On a different note,

FL 303-304: And I also hate posts like this. TL;DR. Blinding us with text, a la vollkan. FL, we don't need a summation of everything everyone's done in the game. Give us your top couple of suspects, and why. Also, if necessary, point out a popular wagon you disagree with and why.

I don't like this kind of attack. Do you think FL typing out a summary before her suspicions was scummy? Anti-town? She did give her top suspects and nailed down an opinion on just about every player. I find it to be more than 'reaching' to attack her for that.[/quote]

I hate those kinda posts. I think they are detrimental to the town, and i will say so. Sue me.

[armlx]

I hate those kinda posts. I think they are detrimental to the town, and i will say so. Sue me.

Will do. If its a large post saying nothing, its scummy for being active lurking, if its a large post thats relevant, grow a pair and read.

Sure, but what's wrong with expressing an opinion on who needs to die? It's not like the vig is bound to listen. The only real problem i see with it is that if everyone expresses an opinion on who to vig, the vig basically has to either lie, or gives himself away by his choice. For instance, if, say, armlx says that Greasy Spot would be a horrible vig choice, and the vig then kills GS, it's pretty obvious it isn't armlx, isn't it?

Or the chance the vig listens to people who aren't really playing for the town's best interest.

[Greasy Spot]

A rather more pertinent point, I think, is why Iam is suggesting a vigging, and not using his vote and tryin to convince people to wagon greasy.

Here, I'll answer this for you. He knows his argument against me won't hold water. He twisted what I said around and interpreted it into things I didn't say. When I didn't respond to some things he then twisted my no responses to mean whatever he wanted it to mean.

vote: iamausername

[Lowell]

Greasy- let's say, hypothetically, a friend of mine doesn't particularly buy the iamausername case. Who should my friend vote for instead, and why?

[The Fonz]

I hate those kinda posts. I think they are detrimental to the town, and i will say so. Sue me.

Will do. If its a large post saying nothing, its scummy for being active lurking, if its a large post thats relevant, grow a pair and read.

There is basically nothing you can say in a post taking up half a page that you couldn't say in one which

doesn't

make the reader lose the will to live before they're half way through.

Or the chance the vig listens to people who aren't really playing for the town's best interest.

Sure, but who someone recommends for vigging is worthwhile information in the same manner as who they vote.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

[Korts]

StrangerCoug's really flailing. HoS'ing for entirely subjective game theory and IGMEOY'ing for bad (?) manners (sic!), and doing his best to pin me to him, he's slipping.

unvote, vote: StrangerCoug

[BlakAdder]

Okay, I've been away for a while, but I should have no problems getting ahold of a computer now. I've reread and I'm finding StrangerCoug somewhat suspicious.

I'll

FOS GS

for tunnel vision.

Explain, even if you just spit out post numbers.

Where have you been for the last ten pages or so? He's been OMGUSing Username repeatedly without good reason.

HoS: Lowell

for calling a powerful pro-town power role useless.

Wtf. That's all I have to say.

That, and all the bandwagoning and votehopping, not getting off of rofl's back even after he claimed mason, and everything else that's been brought up already.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

3. I have admitted to bandwagoning, so it makes some sense.

Not valid reasoning. Just saying "I band wagon" and doing it does not give you a free pass to do so.

I did not admit to bandwagoning so I could do so. I admitted to bandwagoning because somebody was concerned that I was already doing so and that I needed to stop. There is a difference.

unvote, Vote SC

What you seem to have been doing is throwing FOSes around like confetti, which I don't think is helpful to town.

I'm trying to be as cautious as possible at this point, and voting Lowell just for speaking his mind about a power role, whether I like what he says or not, is making mountains out of molehills. Which is why it was an HoS instead of a vote. Until I saw this:

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

Vote: Lowell

for attempting what looks to me like a gambit without backing himself up.

I'll

FOS GS

for tunnel vision.

Explain, even if you just spit out post numbers.

Where have you been for the last ten pages or so? He's been OMGUSing Username repeatedly without good reason.

Here. I'm the kind of person who needs references if he doesn't get explanations.

Could somebody post a vote count please?

[Lowell]

It's meta of me, perhaps, but not a gambit. I still don't really get what that is.

I'm not opposed to a strangercoug lynch. I'm just in no hurry.

[StrangerCoug]

It's meta of me, perhaps, but not a gambit. I still don't really get what that is.

There's no reason to vote somebody to get a meta read on him or her.

[Sun Tzu]

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

I'mnot making any jokes this game.