mini 620 - pxm - GAME OVER

[ting =)]

Hmmm. I don't mind a name claim. I don't see how it'll help, but I don't see how it'll hurt either. If everyone's claiming, I'll claim.

---

Why are you voting for us, exactly? I haven't seen you having any reasoning for us being scum, and yet you're voting for us.

I already admitted I have no logical arguments for it. That's why I said:

This is more gut/elimination than anything.

You're voting for us, but you don't find us either of your two most suspicious players?

Yes, I said this already too. I'll switch my vote to one of naj/strangercoug later.

Just as a marker. I'll switch my vote to either of naj/stranger once I make up my mind.

@muf, maxwell.
You guys are engaging in a very circular argument. Just saying.

@

dahill.

i am content with TrojH putting our vote on Stranger, as i agree with everything he said about him.

You earlier said.

this is dahill chiming in real quickly.
unvote vote maxwell
this is so obvious scum that it hards

This came after trojan first voted stranger and made a case on him.

Why the change of mind?

@strife.
Your name is not the name of a player on mafiascum? If we have a name claim, and if no one objects, I'd rather you claim first.

For D2 leads I'm not particularly aggressive for any one person's lynch - even after a quick reread I don't have a major bias. The game mechanics here are putting an awkward spin on the usual strategy - with 5 days between lynches, it doesn't really leave much time for scumhunting.

I agree, this is the first time I've played in a game with 5 day deadlines. The lack of content before lynching irks me. That's why I was trying earlier to convince everyone to talk more.

Guys, it doesn't matter how often we post anymore. Whether we lurk or post a lot, the scum will still nk.

Because of the two modkills, we only have 3 lynches left till 5 player lylo. We need to find scum by then.

[StrangerCoug]

I

hate

how najd's vote is constantly changing. Naj posts were completely anti maxwell, but their recent post puts their vote on strangercoug.

So we have a bandwagon hopper, eh?

is there any other reason you suspect me? i've been done playing the newbie card. can you give up new reasons of suspicion?

If you define "new reasons" as reasons nobody has brought up yet, then no, but just because you're done with playing the newbie card does not necessarily mean you're done defending it.

But enough whining. I like NAJ's content so I'm not hoping on that wagon. I thought Icemufin's last post was reasonably townie, so I'll avoid that wagon. I'm a little hesitant to jump on Maxwell's wagon because he seems like a good newbie mislynch. Under that assumption, I'm going to hop on the StrangerCoug wagon. If Maxwell is town (which... well may not be true), your behaviour fits how I think scum would handle the situation.

Vote: StrangerCoug

This post is full of bleh. You don't like maxwellhouse's wagon, and the only reason you're giving for your voting me instead also involves a wagon? You've got to do better than that.

MUCH

better.

Unvote: maxwellhouse
Vote: strife220

[Muerrto]

Ok, first off, sorry about the Shadow post. I did simul post that with the mod. Oh well.

B. Wtf is up with all the modkills??? All you have to do is POST.

Fourth, the name claim really only benefits the one's who actually know these people on the site. I mean Mr. Flay obv but Adel? I know the name but a new person like Max might not. I'm not seeing the point of it, can you elaborate? I'll participate because I've nothing to hide but I also don't recognise my name so *shrug*

And finally, Strife is obv town so far. Stranger jumping off Max to Strife is straight OMGUS with no basis, no evidence, posts, reason etc and makes my vote stronger. I don't see it moving before the end of the day.

That said, I don't like muffin's posts. The whole 'voting on page 1 and not page 2 but FoS'ing on the third tuesday' is just crap. The pages represent how many posts have gone by. Why would something be scummy at one point and not scummy at another point 10 posts down? Makes no sense.

@Max: You'll never drop the fact you pulled the newbie card. Let it go, learn from it, don't do it in your next game.

Is that enough to vote him for it? No. Is he scummy otherwise? Yes. Does my partner think so? No.

Do I care if people like the fact that hydra's opinions are split? No. Is it bound to happen since we're all different people? Yes.

What's your solution? Lynch all the hydra's?

[Now a JDodge]

dahill again

first off, i would like to show muffinhead something...presenting Newbie 586! Meet clammy. clammy made big posts. clammy is a newbie. clammy was scum. i rest my case.
that should break that ridiculous meta that newbie scum don't make big posts.

anyways @ting:

Why the change of mind?

maxwell's more recent posts have seemed a little bit more townish than before. also, i am now starting to see how her actions could be made by either newbie scum

or

town. i am definitely still suspicious of her though. on the other hand, strangercoug's actions are far more scummy, in the sense that a townie probably would not do so. i guess i was a little rash in calling maxwell "obvious scum" at the time. furthermore, stranger's last post made me faaar more comfortable with our vote atm. also i agree with muerrto about the hydra thing. people shouldn't automatically expect us to agree on everything, because it's people naturally disagree sometimes.

[xyzzy]

Sorry for my absence the last couple of days.

Please recall that this game is no-replace; only modkills, to hurt lurking as a strategy. No posts made by non-players will be counted.

Now, let's make a fun ol' activity check, eh?

As I expected, kabenon007 is unfortunately dead, but the rest of you are quite alive. He was

Oman, a townie.

"Seriously, I come from a backwater nation where we don't have technology! My mother was probably a sheep! I'm completely innoce-" shouted Oman, swiftly cut off by the asp who suddenly dropped down and bit him.

Votecount 2-1

Now a JDodge: icemuffin
Green Cow: ting =)
icemuffin: maxwellhouse, Green Cow
StrangerCoug: strife220, Now a JDodge, Lawrencelot-Muerrto
strife220: StrangerCoug

Not voting:

edit: fixed VC

[StrangerCoug]

And finally, Strife is obv town so far. Stranger jumping off Max to Strife is straight OMGUS with no basis, no evidence, posts, reason etc and makes my vote stronger. I don't see it moving before the end of the day.

Please wake up and actually read my posts. I voted strife220 for admitting to bandwagon me and quoted the post where he did so.

Also, the phrase "obvious town" does not exist in my vocabulary as, without something to back it up, it is merely an excuse to clear somebody of suspicion and encourages tunnel vision. Use your deduction powers and stop putting us in a game of Russian roulette where your laziness to think is the gun. (I find "obvious scum" flawed in almost the same way, for the record.)

maxwell's more recent posts have seemed a little bit more townish than before. also, i am now starting to see how her actions could be made by either newbie scum

or

town. i am definitely still suspicious of her though. on the other hand, strangercoug's actions are far more scummy, in the sense that a townie probably would not do so.

Explain both his townieness and my scumminess.

[strife220]

2 days left until the next kill. Stranger has the record with 3 votes. My original vote wasn't very confident, but the post 76 OMGUS leaves me more confident.
Stranger: I was choosing between wagons because I don't have any exceptional leads, and I want my vote to actually count towards the lynch. If there are 3 people with wagons, and 2 of them I don't particularly want to see lynch, I'm going to vote for the 3rd. Remember this game isn't based on majority - townies should be trying to contribute as much as they can towards deciding who is lynched, else scum get too much power. Unique game-mechanics lead to unique town-strategy.



I re-read Icemuffin (the other bandwagon still alive) and am happier with my vote placed on StrangerCoug. Given it's only 2 days left, if anybody thinks Icemuffin should be lynched over StrangerCoug they had better get their vote up there fast. No other players have much potential to be lynched today due to lack of votes.



About nameclaiming:

@strife.
Your name is not the name of a player on mafiascum? If we have a name claim, and if no one objects, I'd rather you claim first.

the name claim really only benefits the one's who actually know these people on the site. I mean Mr. Flay obv but Adel? I know the name but a new person like Max might not. I'm not seeing the point of it, can you elaborate? I'll participate because I've nothing to hide but I also don't recognise my name so *shrug*

My reasons for thinking a name-claim is not a bad thing:
a) knowing names in absolutely no way helps scum
b) there's a small (very small?) chance scum will be forced to make up a name, which may overlap with a townies name. Unlikely, but can't hurt.
c) When we lynch one scum, we could learn a fair bit. If they were telling the truth about their name claim, then we learn nothing. If they were forced to lie, then their actual name (revealed on death) may tell us something about who their last partner is. e.g. really crappy name claims = scum trying to avoid claiming a taken name.
d) it should NOT increase the game post count. people should be including their name claim as part of a regular post - nobody should be posting just to give their name-claim.



Yes Ting, my name is not the name of a mafiascum player. I have no problem claiming first, but I hope in doing so, that gives me the right to pick the ordering (via random.com) of who should name-claim. I think this is justified because: If I am scum, I went first and I won't have the chance to use other's claims to help me own. If I am town, then my ordering should be unbiased.

To avoid excessive posting, I'm going to assume everyone is on board with that proposition - it seems reasonable enough to me.


Order from random.org (using card shuffler):
Ting
Lawrencelot/Muerrto
Maxwellhouse
Greencow
Icemuffin
StrangerCoug
NAJ


My paraphrased flavor:
I am a PIRATE from texas. I'm clueless about what's going on, but I know I like xyyzy because he seems to have honor, so I'm going to help him. I got a note with the townie PM from someone who got it from xyyzy, and the townie PM is quoted as on the first page.

I had to PM xyyzy to make sure that I was a vanilla townie, because I thought it to be weird that I had to receive the townie PM from someone else. I guess the people that received the townie PM normally are those with player names. I'm very interested to learn if scum have townie names, or if they're something way off which will force them to make up a lot of flavor.


So, there's my bizarre flavor. Everybody should post a similar claim at an appropriate time, in the order stated above - Ting's up next. Again, please don't post just to address the name-claiming stuff. If you don't want to name-claim, please provide an argument why it is anti-town. "It's distracting" doesn't count because it's only distracting if people let it distract them. Name-claims should be most useful when one scum is dead - no real need to talk about them until then.

[Green Cow]

Cow here:
Well then. First off, I think a nameclaim won't hurt us at all, andd very likely could find scum. I have a couple theories about possible scum through names, but I won't say anything about it at this point.
I don't mind that strife went first, but

that wasn't a nameclaim

. That was a full claim, which I thought we had agreed not to do, because a nameclaim was more beneficial at this point.

I do slightly agree with SC about strife's vote on SC. He doesn't have good reasons for voting for him, it was purely bandwagon, which doesn't help the town at all. So SC's OMGUS vote is justified, if only barely. It's still not an excellent vote though.

NAJ: Please explain why maxwell's posts have been more townie.

I'm not really liking muerrto's last post. Let me attempt to explain why:

B. Wtf is up with all the modkills??? All you have to do is POST.

Seems like an attempt to act townie by showing disgust with the modkills. Yes, they're bad. Deal with it.

Fourth, the name claim really only benefits the one's who actually know these people on the site. I mean Mr. Flay obv but Adel? I know the name but a new person like Max might not. I'm not seeing the point of it, can you elaborate? I'll participate because I've nothing to hide but I also don't recognise my name so *shrug*

Not really scummy, but there are definitely reasons for it.

And finally, Strife is obv town so far. Stranger jumping off Max to Strife is straight OMGUS with no basis, no evidence, posts, reason etc and makes my vote stronger. I don't see it moving before the end of the day.

I completely disagree, as already mentioned. You seem to be ignoring what SC said about the vote, and about strife's vote/reasoning on SC. Plus, there are no reasons here for strife being obv town. At all. Period.

That said, I don't like muffin's posts. The whole 'voting on page 1 and not page 2 but FoS'ing on the third tuesday' is just crap. The pages represent how many posts have gone by. Why would something be scummy at one point and not scummy at another point 10 posts down? Makes no sense.

This, I do agree with.

@Max: You'll never drop the fact you pulled the newbie card. Let it go, learn from it, don't do it in your next game.

Sure, w/e. Not a tell either way, IMO.

Is that enough to vote him for it? No. Is he scummy otherwise? Yes. Does my partner think so? No.

Do I care if people like the fact that hydra's opinions are split? No. Is it bound to happen since we're all different people? Yes.

What's your solution? Lynch all the hydra's?

What was this supposed to do? I can't really tell.

[icemanE]

Iceman.

First of all, while I don't necessarily disagree with the nameclaim idea, I don't feel it will be all that productive. The only thing we know for sure so far is that three townies are dead, and all had mafiascum names. I find it strange that there are apparently additional titles (like strifes). This makes me think there MUST be some significance to these names - which makes me think the nameclaim, while ostensibly a good idea, might not favor the town after all. I don't see why scum would feel the need to invent a name regardless of what their PM said, because now that strife has revealed that there are more than just mafiascum titles, there's no immediately apparent significance to them. In fact, the only way to make this test truly effective would be to lynch strife (or, if everyone ends up claming a name, lynch someone else who has a non-mafiascum name) to test to see whether there's a difference between mafiascum names and non-mafiascum names in regards to allignment. Strife has not struck me as particularly worthy of a lynch outside of this logic though, so as I said, I don't know what the nameclaim would accomplish. I'll wait till it's our turn to nameclaim, in case we decide it's a bad idea before that time arrives.

I don't agree with two of my partners core ideas - that is, that long posts are automatically indicative of protown alignment, and that FoS'ing in the early game is indicative of anti-town alignment.

It has become apparent that lurking as a strategy is not something scum are going to risk - all our lurkers turned up town, which is unfortunate. Therefore, my usual way of thinking (i.e., lurking = scummy) has to change to a certain degree. The scum are going to have a tough time balancing their posts, and we're going to have an even tougher time reading into how timing plays into this game.

I've become quite suspicious of strife. I strongly dislike his last post. The fact that he chose to claim first, and that he claims to have a non-mafiascum name, make me suspicious, because all the dead players have mafiascum names, and I'll say for now that we have a mafiascum name as well. Now, I'm not trying to say that if someone doesn't have a mafiascum name it means they're scum - what I'm saying is that strife has taken the easy way out - that is, considering how limited our knowledge of the setup is, claiming as a non-mafiascum name means that there's no chance for anyone to do a repeat claim - that is, there's no risk that a later claimer will counterclaim. That looks awfully scummy - so perhaps the nameclaim will help after all.

unvote - vote: strife

[maxwellhouse]

@max Why on earth is your vote on me? Your talking about scum lurking and all of a sudden a vote on me without explination? I really dont want to change my oponion about you cause I hate to be wrong.

actually, i have been voting you for the last day and i explained my reasonings for my vote, so it's not a random lurk vote. maybe you and others don't see my reasonings as valid, but i did make my reasonings and so, no it's not some random vote. i voted killa seven after that because he was being silly in the game, which wasn't helping us very much... but that was the reason for my not being on your vote for a bit.

also, just because you defend me, doesn't mean it changes my opinion. don't try to sucker me into that.

@Max: You'll never drop the fact you pulled the newbie card. Let it go, learn from it, don't do it in your next game.

can i please say this... one last time?

why don't i drop the fact i played the newbie card? first off, many people keep bringing it back up. i'm TRYING to let it go, but someone always brings it up. then when i say, let it go that i played the newbie card, someone says that i'm playing an appeal to emotion. where does it end? it doesn't. so please stop mentioning it.

i don't care if you look at the rest of my post and say that's why i'm mafia. that's playing the game. but please, stop reprimending me for saying i played a newb card. whoever said something along the sames lines as this, thank you. i can't seem to find the exact post at the moment.

ok, seriously, no more of that.

now, i find something interesting of strangercoug. i haven't really seen it until now: he does the same thing icemuffin has been doing, really. he posts a lot of repeated information or little to no information.

Seriously, maxwellhouse, with that much information and you can't think about something to say, take the posts that stand out the most to you and talk about what you think about those posts. "I can't think of anything" is not an excuse and equates as "I'm too lazy to think of anything" as far as this game is concerned. If you have to resort to asking players questions about their posts, then do so. The more you say things along the lines of "Hey, I was prodded, and I don't want to die because of the time limit, so here I am," the more you bankrupt your credibility.

Also, the phrase "obvious town" does not exist in my vocabulary as, without something to back it up, it is merely an excuse to clear somebody of suspicion and encourages tunnel vision. Use your deduction powers and stop putting us in a game of Russian roulette where your laziness to think is the gun. (I find "obvious scum" flawed in almost the same way, for the record.)

you seem to be saying that a lot- stop being lazy, start using your own deductions.

yet...

HoS: killa seven for voting without reason in a contentless post.

I find myself agreeing with Now a JDodge's logic in post #41, and he has a pretty big case on maxwellhouse. There were tons and tons of information out there—out of necessity, even—and maxwellhouse has nothing to say about diddly squat!? Way to lurk.

Seriously, maxwellhouse, with that much information and you can't think about something to say, take the posts that stand out the most to you and talk about what you think about those posts. "I can't think of anything" is not an excuse and equates as "I'm too lazy to think of anything" as far as this game is concerned. If you have to resort to asking players questions about their posts, then do so. The more you say things along the lines of "Hey, I was prodded, and I don't want to die because of the time limit, so here I am," the more you bankrupt your credibility.

ting =), if numbers are not of concern to you, then go ahead and keep posting them. You may have to explain them to us so it's easier for us to understand, though. (You seem to be quite the mathematician Wink)

same post as above- you are telling me to out more information. yet you bring out nothing from yourself. why? your "case" on me is just whatever NAJD said. then you tell me to build my own case. then you comment about ting's number crunching. and you HoS'ed killa. this was a basically useless post- no votes, no new information, nothing.


all right, i've done that too... but again. next post, post 54

Muerrto wrote:

Second, Maxwell just followed Stranger's vote for the SECOND time. First on JDodge, then on K7.

As maxwellhouse said, I never voted for killa seven. I HoS'd him the post immediately before maxwellhouse voted him.

okay, this is getting annoying. i am not pleaing to your emotions. i just spent a whole large post explaining myself and everyone cannot seem to let go that i messed up by being a newb. please, just let that go. please show me in the last post in which i said ONE time "don't vote me-- i'm new!!!" yeah i did mention being a newbie, but my first sentence was a sarcastic comment.

Please be very careful with the newbie card, because we're not likely to forget your newbie mistakes anytime in the near future. Yes, we may take them into account when considering what side you're on, but to give a real life example, nobody in their right mind goes to a bank, yells "This is a stickup!", and then says "Whoops—I didn't know bank robbery was illegal" when they see the cops.

you bring up i used the newbie card (already brought up by many people before me) and something i've already said. now, i get having emphasis for the second since you are defending yourself, but did you really have to have that short of a post? for one small defense and telling me not to play the newbie card?


and then again.. another shorter post. post 68, this one quoting a bunch of quotes. i just put the content he actually typed up himself.

Muerrto, I simply felt that maxwellhouse was scummier than killa seven at that point, and I did not want to go for what I felt turned into a policy lynch bandwagon. We now know that killa seven is town, and I still suspect maxwellhouse for his trying to play the newbie card. In fact, Vote: maxwellhouse in case a lynch resets everybody's votes.

Not a JDodge, I failed to understand why Green Cow did not actually vote for killa seven at that post (remember—the bandwagon on killa seven did not yet exist, so I'm not contradicting myself here) if his concern was for wasted. FoS merely says "I suspect you, but don't feel that your actions warrant a vote just yet". That was the only person on his list of suspicion as we knew it at that time. Is the FoS not wasted space too?

first paragraph, no complaints really. you are explaining yourself and why you voted, even including a vote.

second, you are explaining yourself on your vote for green cow... yet your reasoning is faulty. if a FoS is wasted space, isn't a HoS? therefore, isn't your own post HoS wasted space also? so why did you scold someone for a FoS but it was perfectly fine for your HoS? you did nothing else in your post for your HoS except agree and repeat information. maybe you were a little bit more flowery with your repeated information, but it was still repeated.

NOTE, so far, these ARE his posts. i didn't exclude information.

okay, now his second to his latest post, post 76.

[quote="ting =)] wrote:
I hate how najd's vote is constantly changing. Naj posts were completely anti maxwell, but their recent post puts their vote on strangercoug.

So we have a bandwagon hopper, eh? [/quote]

okay, i don't know what you mean here. are you attacking ting=) or NAJD? i think you're attacking NAJD. all right. that sentence was absolutely vague and repetitive. ting=) already pointed this out, why did you have to point it out again, except in a much less question-like form? what was the point of this, or to make people take notice of it and keep discussing it and put suspicion on NAJD?

If you define "new reasons" as reasons nobody has brought up yet, then no, but just because you're done with playing the newbie card does not necessarily mean you're done defending it.

fair enough, though i'm not defending the newbie card though. i just want it to not be brought up again over and over as a reason/a scold. and people telling me over and over again to stop playing the newbie card when i'm not, yeah it's annoying.

This post is full of bleh. You don't like maxwellhouse's wagon, and the only reason you're giving for your voting me instead also involves a wagon? You've got to do better than that. MUCH better.

Unvote: maxwellhouse
Vote: strife220

i have to agree with him here. strife's reasons were yucky, but he did explain his own thoughts as to why he is not voting for others (strife- don't not vote anyone because you think they're a newb though).



on to latest post. it was shorter again. kind of vague. i'm breaking it up into parts again. not the first part, but the last two parts.

Also, the phrase "obvious town" does not exist in my vocabulary as, without something to back it up, it is merely an excuse to clear somebody of suspicion and encourages tunnel vision. Use your deduction powers and stop putting us in a game of Russian roulette where your laziness to think is the gun. (I find "obvious scum" flawed in almost the same way, for the record.)

okay, i am just being a little "..." at this part. maybe i am being picky, i don't know.

NAJD's post #26

this is dahill chiming in real quickly.

unvote vote maxwell

this is so obvious scum that it hards

strangercoug's post # 29

I also believe Not a JDodge's case on you in post #26.

all right. so he called me "obvious scum." you read his post apparently, since you said that you believed his case. you did not jump on him for using me as obvious scum. you jumped on me and voted me instead. i mean, it was a good time. everyone was starting to point fingers at me.

now, when muerrto calls strife "obvious town" and strife is voting against you, then that is something you jump on hard. so it is obvious that you don't take "obvious scum" as hard as "obvious town."

i feel as if icemuffin and strangercoug are in an alliance. icemuffin defended not voting for strangercoug on reason of not FoS on first page. granted, in icemuffin's latest post, he disagrees with his partner's idea.

I don't agree with two of my partners core ideas - that is, that long posts are automatically indicative of protown alignment, and that FoS'ing in the early game is indicative of anti-town alignment.

but i still think what your partner said revealed something- his defense for strangercoug. do you defend strangercoug as well? i am also kinda wondering why your posts never crossed paths except for in defense/support of a vote.

i'm suspicious right now of both strangercoug and icemuffin. since i focused mostly on strangercoug in my post, i'm going to go ahead and change my vote.

unvote: icemuffin
vote: strangercoug

no, not bandwagoning. i still find icemuffin suspicious. i just find them both suspicious. since my case is mostly on strangercoug, i'm putting my vote on strangercoug.

there has been a lot of information posted after i started writing this, and i will include it in my next post because this one has taken me hours. (my post originally was supposed to be after strangercoug's, so i apologize if my post doesn't include a lot of the information that was in between.)

[strife220]

Iceman.

First of all, while I don't necessarily disagree with the nameclaim idea, I don't feel it will be all that productive. The only thing we know for sure so far is that three townies are dead, and all had mafiascum names. I find it strange that there are apparently additional titles (like strifes). This makes me think there MUST be some significance to these names - which makes me think the nameclaim, while ostensibly a good idea, might not favor the town after all. I don't see why scum would feel the need to invent a name regardless of what their PM said, because now that strife has revealed that there are more than just mafiascum titles, there's no immediately apparent significance to them. In fact, the only way to make this test truly effective would be to lynch strife (or, if everyone ends up claming a name, lynch someone else who has a non-mafiascum name) to test to see whether there's a difference between mafiascum names and non-mafiascum names in regards to allignment. Strife has not struck me as particularly worthy of a lynch outside of this logic though, so as I said, I don't know what the nameclaim would accomplish. I'll wait till it's our turn to nameclaim, in case we decide it's a bad idea before that time arrives.

I don't agree with two of my partners core ideas - that is, that long posts are automatically indicative of protown alignment, and that FoS'ing in the early game is indicative of anti-town alignment.

It has become apparent that lurking as a strategy is not something scum are going to risk - all our lurkers turned up town, which is unfortunate. Therefore, my usual way of thinking (i.e., lurking = scummy) has to change to a certain degree. The scum are going to have a tough time balancing their posts, and we're going to have an even tougher time reading into how timing plays into this game.

I've become quite suspicious of strife. I strongly dislike his last post. The fact that he chose to claim first, and that he claims to have a non-mafiascum name, make me suspicious, because all the dead players have mafiascum names, and I'll say for now that we have a mafiascum name as well. Now, I'm not trying to say that if someone doesn't have a mafiascum name it means they're scum - what I'm saying is that strife has taken the easy way out - that is, considering how limited our knowledge of the setup is, claiming as a non-mafiascum name means that there's no chance for anyone to do a repeat claim - that is, there's no risk that a later claimer will counterclaim. That looks awfully scummy - so perhaps the nameclaim will help after all.

unvote - vote: strife

This post sucksssssss.

First you say you don't think name-claims will be productive. Then you say there must be significance to the names. Then you say you think it might not favor town at all.

Then you imply that lynching me is a good way to find out if my role-claim is indicative of alignment...

You lie and say: "he chose to claim first" when I was requested to because I already said my name was not of a MS player

You completely ignore my reasoning that the name-claims should not be considered of interest until EVERYBODY had claimed. One person (who you admit didn't seem scummy previously) claims a non-mafiascum name and you think it justifies their lynch?

You completely ignore the fact that name-claiming was MY idea and that it would be in me-scum's best interest to avoid such claiming if I knew all pro-town players had MS-names. If I'm scum and only scum have non-scum names, then my partner and I will be the only ones with non-MS names. If one of us gets lynched, the other is the obvious next choice. So by requesting a name-claim and not making one up, I doomed scum. Sound logic.




This post baffles me with failed logic and a horribly unjustified, 'intent-to-lynch' vote. Pardon the OMGUS, and pardon for posting more frequently than I usually intend to, but my vote needs to be replaced.

Unvote, Vote IcemanE

[Icemuffin]

First you say you don't think name-claims will be productive. Then you say there must be significance to the names. Then you say you think it might not favor town at all.

Right, that's how my thought process unfolded as I wrote the post. Usually conclusions are found at the end, so that's where you can look if you missed it somehow, which you apparently did.

I guess I should address why I thought it might not be a good idea to do a nameclaim. Poweroles might have a different type of name - it would suck to lynch a power role based on that. Either way I don't think that applies to your claim, as I explained.

Then you imply that lynching me is a good way to find out if my role-claim is indicative of alignment...

Technically, it is, isn't it? But that's not the only reason I voted for you.

You lie and say: "he chose to claim first" when I was requested to because I already said my name was not of a MS player

Nope. You already soft claimed and set yourself up to be able to claim the way you did by saying that your name was a non-MS name, so my point is still totally valid.

You completely ignore my reasoning that the name-claims should not be considered of interest until EVERYBODY had claimed. One person (who you admit didn't seem scummy previously) claims a non-mafiascum name and you think it justifies their lynch?

Not entirely. That's part of it - as I said, there must be significance to the fact that your name is of a totally different style, if it actually is - but in addition to that, it'd be OK to lynch you based on the rest of the reasons I gave - that is, because I think your claim is crap.

You completely ignore the fact that name-claiming was MY idea and that it would be in me-scum's best interest to avoid such claiming if I knew all pro-town players had MS-names.

I didn't ignore that at all - in fact, as I elaborated upon in my post, the fact that you started the claim process is what I found scummy in the first place. I think it's a gambit.

If I'm scum and only scum have non-scum names, then my partner and I will be the only ones with non-MS names. If one of us gets lynched, the other is the obvious next choice. So by requesting a name-claim and not making one up, I doomed scum. Sound logic.

I doubt your partner would be dumb enough to also claim a non-MS name.

This post baffles me with failed logic and a horribly unjustified, 'intent-to-lynch' vote. Pardon the OMGUS, and pardon for posting more frequently than I usually intend to, but my vote needs to be replaced.
Unvote, Vote IcemanE

It's OMGUS whether you ask for it to be pardoned or not. Also, you might want to switch your vote to "IceMuffin" as I am one head on a hydra account in this game.

[Green Cow]

Gorrad here. Strife, that last post is one huge ball of WIFOM. The complete off-the-wall nature of your claim is suspect AND you could easily have suggested a name claim to seem pro-town.

In fact, that seems extremely likely because your claim nigh-ruins the effectiveness of a mass name claim. You set up the mass name claim to seem pro-town, then you ruin it with your claim AND seem even MORE pro-town because you suggested it with such an off-the-wall claim. What doesn't make sense is WHY you would suggest it if you knew your claim was going to ruin it.

Unvote, Vote: Strife

.

[strife220]

I guess I should address why I thought it might not be a good idea to do a nameclaim. Poweroles might have a different type of name - it would suck to lynch a power role based on that. Either way I don't think that applies to your claim, as I explained.

This game doesn't have powerroles. It's mountainous - 10 vanilla town, 2 vanilla scum. Scum cannot benefit from knowing town names

Not entirely. That's part of it - as I said, there must be significance to the fact that your name is of a totally different style, if it actually is - but in addition to that, it'd be OK to lynch you based on the rest of the reasons I gave - that is, because I think your claim is crap.

So you want to lynch me when I'm the only person that's claimed? For all we know, half the players in the game might have names that aren't MS. Or there might be 3 of us. Or just myself. Your Vote is placed long before you get all the information that you Should be basing your vote on. How do you know my claim is 'crap' until everyone else chimes in with better ones?

I doubt your partner would be dumb enough to also claim a non-MS name.

Then I'm forcing my partner to make up a name claim which may overlap with someone elses? Or me-scum was clever and put my partner at the end of the claim-list, in which case he'll be under suspicion because he's at the end of the claim list And had a crappy claim.

In fact, that seems extremely likely because your claim nigh-ruins the effectiveness of a mass name claim. You set up the mass name claim to seem pro-town, then you ruin it with your claim AND seem even MORE pro-town because you suggested it with such an off-the-wall claim. What doesn't make sense is WHY you would suggest it if you knew your claim was going to ruin it.

Unvote, Vote: Strife

.

I explicitly stated the reasons why I think a name-claim would be helpful - I didn't make up any BS. You don't know if my claim "ruins" the point until all claims are out.

Again, your vote here is with the intention of lynching, but even if you think my claim sucks, you have NO reason not to wait until all name-claims are out. We're nowhere close to lylo, so you want to make a lynch now with less information than a lynch later with more?

[StrangerCoug]

now, i find something interesting of strangercoug. i haven't really seen it until now: he does the same thing icemuffin has been doing, really. he posts a lot of repeated information or little to no information.

Seriously, maxwellhouse, with that much information and you can't think about something to say, take the posts that stand out the most to you and talk about what you think about those posts. "I can't think of anything" is not an excuse and equates as "I'm too lazy to think of anything" as far as this game is concerned. If you have to resort to asking players questions about their posts, then do so. The more you say things along the lines of "Hey, I was prodded, and I don't want to die because of the time limit, so here I am," the more you bankrupt your credibility.

Also, the phrase "obvious town" does not exist in my vocabulary as, without something to back it up, it is merely an excuse to clear somebody of suspicion and encourages tunnel vision. Use your deduction powers and stop putting us in a game of Russian roulette where your laziness to think is the gun. (I find "obvious scum" flawed in almost the same way, for the record.)

you seem to be saying that a lot- stop being lazy, start using your own deductions.

That's true. Playing Mafia well relies heavily on information.

yet...

HoS: killa seven for voting without reason in a contentless post.

I find myself agreeing with Now a JDodge's logic in post #41, and he has a pretty big case on maxwellhouse. There were tons and tons of information out there—out of necessity, even—and maxwellhouse has nothing to say about diddly squat!? Way to lurk.

Seriously, maxwellhouse, with that much information and you can't think about something to say, take the posts that stand out the most to you and talk about what you think about those posts. "I can't think of anything" is not an excuse and equates as "I'm too lazy to think of anything" as far as this game is concerned. If you have to resort to asking players questions about their posts, then do so. The more you say things along the lines of "Hey, I was prodded, and I don't want to die because of the time limit, so here I am," the more you bankrupt your credibility.

ting =), if numbers are not of concern to you, then go ahead and keep posting them. You may have to explain them to us so it's easier for us to understand, though. (You seem to be quite the mathematician Wink)

same post as above- you are telling me to out more information. yet you bring out nothing from yourself. why? your "case" on me is just whatever NAJD said. then you tell me to build my own case. then you comment about ting's number crunching. and you HoS'ed killa. this was a basically useless post- no votes, no new information, nothing.

Well damn it >< I let myself become a hypocrite.

all right, i've done that too... but again. next post, post 54

Muerrto wrote:

Second, Maxwell just followed Stranger's vote for the SECOND time. First on JDodge, then on K7.

As maxwellhouse said, I never voted for killa seven. I HoS'd him the post immediately before maxwellhouse voted him.

okay, this is getting annoying. i am not pleaing to your emotions. i just spent a whole large post explaining myself and everyone cannot seem to let go that i messed up by being a newb. please, just let that go. please show me in the last post in which i said ONE time "don't vote me-- i'm new!!!" yeah i did mention being a newbie, but my first sentence was a sarcastic comment.

Please be very careful with the newbie card, because we're not likely to forget your newbie mistakes anytime in the near future. Yes, we may take them into account when considering what side you're on, but to give a real life example, nobody in their right mind goes to a bank, yells "This is a stickup!", and then says "Whoops—I didn't know bank robbery was illegal" when they see the cops.

you bring up i used the newbie card (already brought up by many people before me) and something i've already said. now, i get having emphasis for the second since you are defending yourself, but did you really have to have that short of a post? for one small defense and telling me not to play the newbie card?

The newbie card often gets used as an excuse for making mistakes. That's our problem with it.

and then again.. another shorter post. post 68, this one quoting a bunch of quotes. i just put the content he actually typed up himself.

Muerrto, I simply felt that maxwellhouse was scummier than killa seven at that point, and I did not want to go for what I felt turned into a policy lynch bandwagon. We now know that killa seven is town, and I still suspect maxwellhouse for his trying to play the newbie card. In fact, Vote: maxwellhouse in case a lynch resets everybody's votes.

Not a JDodge, I failed to understand why Green Cow did not actually vote for killa seven at that post (remember—the bandwagon on killa seven did not yet exist, so I'm not contradicting myself here) if his concern was for wasted. FoS merely says "I suspect you, but don't feel that your actions warrant a vote just yet". That was the only person on his list of suspicion as we knew it at that time. Is the FoS not wasted space too?

first paragraph, no complaints really. you are explaining yourself and why you voted, even including a vote.

second, you are explaining yourself on your vote for green cow... yet your reasoning is faulty. if a FoS is wasted space, isn't a HoS? therefore, isn't your own post HoS wasted space also? so why did you scold someone for a FoS but it was perfectly fine for your HoS? you did nothing else in your post for your HoS except agree and repeat information. maybe you were a little bit more flowery with your repeated information, but it was still repeated.

I try not to be repetitive if I can help it (exception is if it's been too long since it's been brought up), but it appears you've got me again. I do, however, have a habit of bringing up tidbits from certain posts that lead me to my vote.

NOTE, so far, these ARE his posts. i didn't exclude information.

okay, now his second to his latest post, post 76.

wrote:
I hate how najd's vote is constantly changing. Naj posts were completely anti maxwell, but their recent post puts their vote on strangercoug.

So we have a bandwagon hopper, eh?

okay, i don't know what you mean here. are you attacking ting=) or NAJD? i think you're attacking NAJD. all right. that sentence was absolutely vague and repetitive. ting=) already pointed this out, why did you have to point it out again, except in a much less question-like form? what was the point of this, or to make people take notice of it and keep discussing it and put suspicion on NAJD?

(I fixed your quote tag, by the way.)

I was attacking Now a JDodge. ting =) implied that NAJD was bandwagon hopping, and I made it explicit in the form of a question to see if my interpretation of his post was correct.

If you define "new reasons" as reasons nobody has brought up yet, then no, but just because you're done with playing the newbie card does not necessarily mean you're done defending it.

fair enough, though i'm not defending the newbie card though. i just want it to not be brought up again over and over as a reason/a scold. and people telling me over and over again to stop playing the newbie card when i'm not, yeah it's annoying.

Well, nothing in your most recent post suggests the newbie card, so that's a good thing.

on to latest post. it was shorter again. kind of vague. i'm breaking it up into parts again. not the first part, but the last two parts.

Also, the phrase "obvious town" does not exist in my vocabulary as, without something to back it up, it is merely an excuse to clear somebody of suspicion and encourages tunnel vision. Use your deduction powers and stop putting us in a game of Russian roulette where your laziness to think is the gun. (I find "obvious scum" flawed in almost the same way, for the record.)

okay, i am just being a little "..." at this part. maybe i am being picky, i don't know.

It's terminology that I fail to understand and don't see as necessary anyway since a good attack/defense doesn't need to use them. In addition, if somebody labelled as "obvious town" or "obvious scum" flips the opposite, then it wasn't obvious, now was it?

NAJD's post #26

this is dahill chiming in real quickly.

unvote vote maxwell

this is so obvious scum that it hards

strangercoug's post # 29

I also believe Not a JDodge's case on you in post #26.

all right. so he called me "obvious scum." you read his post apparently, since you said that you believed his case. you did not jump on him for using me as obvious scum. you jumped on me and voted me instead. i mean, it was a good time. everyone was starting to point fingers at me.

now, when muerrto calls strife "obvious town" and strife is voting against you, then that is something you jump on hard. so it is obvious that you don't take "obvious scum" as hard as "obvious town."

They're both flawed, but I think it's easier to prove somebody is scum as opposed to town. The easiest way for a townie to prove that someone is another townie is if the first is a cop, but that's not the only way to do it.

Probably why I failed to bring up the "obvious scum" bit when Now a JDodge called you obvious scum is because I thought you were scummy too. You're starting to clean up your act, though.

I also know there's more to Now a JDodge's post #26 than what you put, because I will not agree with someone just because they said someone was obviously this.

[Muerrto]

Grrr...I wish my partner would let me vote Maxwell:

Ok, first, when I say let it go, I don't mean other people. I mean you. Stop saying 'C'mon guys forget it happened' It happened, no one in this game will forget it, learn from it and don't claim it next game. The part in quotes is the plea to emotion. Stop doing it.

Second, are we trying to quickly outnumber Stranger's votes by leaping on Strife for horrible reasons?

FoS: Green Cow

If the name claim doesn't help OR hurt anyone, how is asking people to do it scummy? How is it WIFOM? Why does it even matter?

In fact:

I'm Brandi and I give 'Moar Hugz'. I have no clue who the hell that is but maybe my partner(who's V/LA) or someone else in this game does. That's why I said I've nothing to hide because I simply can't make something like that up.

Still happy with my vote on Stranger but really, REALLY dislike Ice's latest posts. Alot.

Then the Greencow jump onto Strife? Wow.

Possible distancing from Cow to Ice then jumping to Strife? I could see that with Stranger as their third. Weird coincidence none of them are voting for each other but Stranger and Cow are both voting Strife...

[Icemuffin]

This game doesn't have powerroles. It's mountainous - 10 vanilla town, 2 vanilla scum. Scum cannot benefit from knowing town names

Oops. Missed that. So the power role theory is out - which makes the non-MS names seem even more important.

So you want to lynch me when I'm the only person that's claimed? For all we know, half the players in the game might have names that aren't MS. Or there might be 3 of us. Or just myself. Your Vote is placed long before you get all the information that you Should be basing your vote on. How do you know my claim is 'crap' until everyone else chimes in with better ones?

Let me explain something: I don't believe your claim Strife. I think you probably have a mafiascum name, but like I said, you made up the pirate claim for two reasons:

1. To avoid someone repeating and thereby CC'ing you claim.
2. To appear protown without risking ^.

Also, here's why I don't think you actually have a non-MS name (or, if you actually do, why it means you're scum): you say that potentially half the players have non-MS names. However, given the evidence we already have (killa7, targ, shadow, kab, Ting (who implied he had a MS name), myself, and now muerrto ALL have MS names - that's over half the players in the game) I just don't see why the mod would give out some non-MS games unless there was something inherently different about the role, i.e., to scum.

My nameclaim is:

shaft.ed. It says I want to help Xyzzy and that Nibbler is a pimp.

Then I'm forcing my partner to make up a name claim which may overlap with someone elses? Or me-scum was clever and put my partner at the end of the claim-list, in which case he'll be under suspicion because he's at the end of the claim list And had a crappy claim.

Yes, that sounds like a plausible strategy. Stranger and NAJD are at the bottom of the list. Are you saying they are your partners? I see that as a possibility. I'm curious - if you're denying putting them at the bottom of the list with a motive, would you mind if they were the next two players to claim?

We're nowhere close to lylo, so you want to make a lynch now with less information than a lynch later with more?

We're still close to a lynch deadline pretty much at all times during this game with only 5 days between lynches. Here's the thing - I already think that, given the info we have, there's enough to support your lynch, so I don't need to wait around for any more, especially since we have such a limited amount of time to decide.

I don't like Greencow's style, but I agree entirely with this:

In fact, that seems extremely likely because your claim nigh-ruins the effectiveness of a mass name claim. You set up the mass name claim to seem pro-town, then you ruin it with your claim AND seem even MORE pro-town because you suggested it with such an off-the-wall claim. What doesn't make sense is WHY you would suggest it if you knew your claim was going to ruin it.

He's right - by claiming with a non-MS name, you've essentially destroyed the effectiveness of the nameclaim, which would of course be the intent of scum.

I'm Brandi and I give 'Moar Hugz'. I have no clue who the hell that is but maybe my partner(who's V/LA) or someone else in this game does. That's why I said I've nothing to hide because I simply can't make something like that up.

This sounds legit, and though I don't understand it, I know it relates to MS. TheStatusQuo's avatar and signature are about Brandi, whoever that is.

Weird coincidence none of them are voting for each other but Stranger and Cow are both voting Strife...

How is that a weird coincidence? Three people voting for the person they find scummiest is scummy? If that's the criteria for suspicion, every person on every wagon is immediatly suspect, and that's faulty logic.

[ting =)]

I am Cicero. I've only played one game with xyzzy, where I was annoyed at xyzzy for calling for a massclaim.

-----


I did a search of ms for times when Muerrto and Brandi posted in GD. Muerrto has only posted in GD either to mention that he's going v/la, or in another thread which he started.

He was posting in GD at about May 20ish and only for a couple of days.

Brandi started posting there early May, which means he

might

have seen some of her posts and decided on this claim.

That said, he nearly never posts in GD, so I'm willing to believe his claim.

-----



Spaces indicate time between votes. Strikethrough indicates a switch.
stranger:[col]mue,najd [col].[col].[col]

strife

[col].[col].[col]maxwell[col].[col].[col]3 najd:[col]

muffin

[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col]0 maxwell:[col]

stranger

[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col]0 muffin:[col].[col]

maxwell

[col]

greencow

[col].[col].[col].[col].[col]strife[col].[col]1 cow:[col]ting[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col].[col]1 strife:[col].[col].[col].[col].[col]stranger[col]muffin [col].[col].[col]greencow[col]3
Strife's unvote/vote makes me think he's town. He had the chance to put stranger above himself, which

[ting =)]

damn, sorry - i clicked submit instead of preview.

The box thing is the votes and the timing of unvotes.

I don't like the last 2 votes. Strife timed his vote so that stranger would still be above him in the vote count.

I don't like greencow's because it seems intended more to prevent a stranger lynch than to lynch strife.

In the post where he votes strife, his reply to strife's wifom... is more wifom? In a setup where our votes are more important than normal, you're not trying very hard to justify yours.

----

unvote. vote: strangercoug

I don't like how quickly the wagon shifted to strife all of a sudden. There was hardly any case on strife.

This post is full of bleh. You don't like maxwellhouse's wagon, and the only reason you're giving for your voting me instead also involves a wagon? You've got to do better than that. MUCH better.

It's a valid observation, but hardly not that big a deal.

Even cow(hasfdgas) thought so.

I do slightly agree with SC about strife's vote on SC. He doesn't have good reasons for voting for him, it was purely bandwagon, which doesn't help the town at all. So SC's OMGUS vote is justified, if only barely. It's still not an excellent vote though.

Icemuffin's initial attack on strife reads like paranoia. It was just speculation with nothing to back it up.

What I don't get is why strife got heated over it and omgus'd muffin.

[Muerrto]

Let me explain something: I don't believe your claim Strife. I think you probably have a mafiascum name, but like I said, you made up the pirate claim for two reasons:

1. To avoid someone repeating and thereby CC'ing you claim.
2. To appear protown without risking ^.

Um... so he claimed first, claimed a NON-mafiascum name, claimed to be a PIRATE, all as a gambit because he's scum??? Because as scum and making something up...a PIRATE is the best thing he could come up with??? An F'ing PIRATE??? Are you joking???

KNOWING that we're mostly mafiascum names, he picks a PIRATE? Not even a name? Just 'random pirate #8'(pieces of eight, get it?)?

Weird coincidence none of them are voting for each other but Stranger and Cow are both voting Strife...

How is that a weird coincidence? Three people voting for the person they find scummiest is scummy? If that's the criteria for suspicion, every person on every wagon is immediatly suspect, and that's faulty logic.

Hmm...I said Stranger and Cow were voting Strife, not you. Why'd you feel compelled to add yourself to that group?

Not switching off Stranger, quite happy to lynch you next assuming Stranger is scum.

@Ting: Appreciate the vote of confidence on the claim but honestly, even if I HAD posted in the GD forum about the same time as her

1. Why'd I pick her?

2. How the hell would I know about 'Moar hugz'?

3. Why the hell would I pick her?

You're digging a tad deep there my friend.

[icemanE]

Um... so he claimed first, claimed a NON-mafiascum name, claimed to be a PIRATE, all as a gambit because he's scum??? Because as scum and making something up...a PIRATE is the best thing he could come up with??? An F'ing PIRATE??? Are you joking???

Sure... why is that any less plausible than anything else? It's completely random - that would be the idea, right?

A question for you, if you do believe his claim - why do you think he's the only one (so far) with a non-MS name? Even if you buy his claim, don't you see there's something inherently different about his role as evidenced by his name? And that he's in the minority in having a non-MS name - we already have enough claims to certify that - and that scum are the minority in this game?

Either way, whether you believe the claim or not, I think his claim is evidence of his being scum.

Hmm...I said Stranger and Cow were voting Strife, not you. Why'd you feel compelled to add yourself to that group?

Because... I'm voting strife...?

In regards to Muerrto's Brandi claim, I believe that. It fits with the style of all the other roles revealed so far. I don't know who Brandi is but by way of Ting's latest post it's clear she's a MS player.

[ting =)]

unvote. vote:strife

It's nearly deadline. I was waiting to see if strangercoug would spam the thread, he hasn't.

He's posted at other threads on the site since my post, so he's not v/la.

I'll admit I have no case on strife. I do, however, now think that strangercoug is town.

----

@mue.
Exactly, answers to 1,2,3 would imply that it's too unlikely a claim to have been made up - and so are probably real. Which, is what scum would want in a claim.

My post was just me saying I was willing to take the unlikely-ness at face value and not wifom myself over it.

[StrangerCoug]

Wait just a minute, ting =). Just three posts before that, you posted this:

unvote. vote: strangercoug

I don't like how quickly the wagon shifted to strife all of a sudden. There was hardly any case on strife.

This post is full of bleh. You don't like maxwellhouse's wagon, and the only reason you're giving for your voting me instead also involves a wagon? You've got to do better than that. MUCH better.

It's a valid observation, but hardly not that big a deal.

Even cow(hasfdgas) thought so.

And now you're saying this:

unvote. vote:strife

It's nearly deadline. I was waiting to see if strangercoug would spam the thread, he hasn't.

He's posted at other threads on the site since my post, so he's not v/la.

I'll admit I have no case on strife. I do, however, now think that strangercoug is town.

OK, you now believe I'm town, and I can't accuse you of thought crimes. My concern, however, is that you said you don't like the wagon on strife220 and say there was barely a case—you hinted at my vote on him being justifiable since he was bandwagoning me, but that's it—and now you've decided there's zero case on him, yet you vote him anyway solely because of the upcoming deadline.

Re: if I would spam the thread, I'm trying to be as conservative as possible, since you said it's better to post at most once or twice a day, at least for now, Mr. Mathematics. You are correct in that I am not V/LA, but scum may be following this exact same procedure that I am, so you've tested me on a null tell.

That said, your last two posts together don't make sense—in fact, there are parts of them that conflict.

Unvote: strife220
Vote: ting =)

[Muerrto]

Sure... why is that any less plausible than anything else? It's completely random - that would be the idea, right?

What?! No. The idea would be to be believable, not just random. Why the heck would you just claim 'my name's Bob'. Random? Yes. Believable? Hell no.

@Stranger: You better not be bussing. You're absolutely correct. Ting's posts completely and totally contradicted each other. His jump to Strife now near deadline is nothing short of the scummiest thing so far this game.

Unvote, Vote: Ting

Would you care to explain your rapid change in opinion without explanation Ting?

[ting =)]

Yes, they contradict.

At the time of my first post, strangercoug and strife were both at 3 votes each.

Whoever I voted would have been the lynch. If I picked the scum correctly, they would have spammed the thread.

I decided then that I'd watch whoever I voted for. If they spammed, they're scum. If they didn't, then they're most probably town.

Since stranger didn't spam, I'm inclined to think that he's town. This doesn't make strife scum, but it does make me think that my vote on strangercoug is on the wrong place. Hence, the switch to strife.