Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Netlava]

Hmm, I really want Netlava to defend himself first. He might be continuing on a suspicion from the last game. (I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) Did he hound you last game?

I think just for that, you get the honor of being on the second spot on my scum list. It appears that you've already made up your mind, and your attempt to cast off the suspicion as a personal vendetta is an indirect way of protecting CF Riot. Furthermore, last game doesn't have anything to do with this game. If you check the last game, you'll notice that I did change opinions on CF Riot, which means that I do try to keep an open mind.

Looking back through the thread, I also noticed that you never actually answered the question what are your reasons for bringing up the possibility of SK. Also, the way you've voted is suspicious. You voted Charter for one particular issue way back while ignoring the wealth of new info. Instead, you've been affirming your suspicions with comments such as:

My vote has been on him for a while because he keeps doing it.

without actually pushing his bandwagon.

[Lord Gurgi]

Not that I don't appreciate your skill for ignoring an attack on you, but you just criticised me for not answering questions while ignoring a page long post. And no, I voted him for hypocrisy and he keeps being a hypocrite.

However, your response to my post is in the extreme, I wanted to hold my vote until you had a chance to explain yourself and instead you jump down my throat. How the HECK is giving you a chance protecting CF Riot? Until you provide some decent explanation for yourself,

Unvote, Vote: Netlava

[Walnut]

SCUM: Walnut

AND POSSIBLY: Macavenger

I forget why. Replace me though, I don't have enough effort to do these.

Very sorry mod.

Thank you Blackberry! And no, not for deciding that I am SCUM. I appreciate that you have done the right thing in baling out of the game if you are not interested enough.

For those who thought I was suspicious for pressing Blackberry on this, feel free to continue to do so, but for myself I think it has played out to a mutually acceptable conclusion. In the context (especially as supported by Farside's evidence in post 162) I won't be thinking of BB's replacement as at all suspicious by default, as BB's actions seem more personal than role based.

@Lord Gurgi: While ideally they should be separate games or all players should have participated in both, it is inevitable that people have at least a subconscious reference to the trainwreck that was the first game. I don't know if you and Farside have the time, but if so, it wouldn't hurt to read through. And laugh at the ending...

[Battousai]

WTH Netlava? LG was actually defending YOU more than CF Riot in that last post. Did you even read those two posts or just one of them.

CF: I agree that Netlava has been singling you out the entire game, but I don't find that lynch worthy yet as tunnel vision can be attributed just as well to a townie as well as scum. Don't you think that is possible or since he's narrowed in on you, you feel he has to be scum?

[Tinsley]

A few here have already mentioned our tendencies from our last game. That's the reason why I'm hesitant to lynch Netlava right now. Sure, he's been contradicting himself, but if I remember correctly he did that in the last game in addition to twisting other's words, and yet he still wasn't scum.

I'm not too sure about charter being scum either. He was much more defensive as scum in the last game when the wagon started to build on him. He may have learned his lesson, but I'm not getting scum vibes from him right now.

My motives have cooled on CF Riot, I doubt he would do all of that research and write that mammoth of a post (173) if he were scum.

Unfortunately, I think the person who deserves the most attention right now is the one that's getting replaced. Blackberry claims a "super-kick-ass" role without anything to really prompt it. He also claims to suspect myself and Had without much of an explanation. Then he leaves us saying confidently that Walnut is scum and possibly Macavenger as well.

[farside22]

Why is no one paying attention to this:

For now,

strong FoS on Hadhfang

, waiting for the rest of the town's opinion on how to go about testing this claim. Battousai I'm also waiting for you to come in and clear your name.

Don't lynch him today and if he lives through the night lynch him tomorrow. Of course the mafia could always not NK him, but I see that as much more unlikely than him actually being mafia (if he lives). Saying this, there's no point in lynching him today, as there are probably two others, so I'll go ahead and

unvote had

However Had, you would do well to explain the discrepancies in your posting as pointed out by several of us.

A good place to start

vote blackberry

because I didn't get a super kickass role.

Now the hypocritical moment:

CF Riot's post 71:

I'd also like to add that I'm eating the most delicious apple right now. So good.

I saw it as a doc breadcrumb, with apple being the trigger word, except for the fact that it makes no sense for a doc to breadcrumb whatsoever. From my (limited) experience as mafia, I have been tempted to drop fake breadcrumbs, before realizing that doc breadcrumbs make no sense.

What if he really was a doc and it was a real breadcrumb? Then if the scum wasn't observant you just outed a town power role. What do you think should happen if CF is found dead tomorrow as the doc?

Why are you asking other people what they think should happen if Riot is found dead tomorrow and is doc? Why don't you say what you think will happen? What good can you hope to gain from this question? I ask these because you seem unwilling to drop the Riot being doc thing, even after he explicitly said he wasn't dropping hints at his role.

If someone can explain why this is okay I will let it go.

[Mizzy]

camn replaces Blackberry effective immediately. Thanks, camn!

[Macavenger]

A few here have already mentioned our tendencies from our last game. That's the reason why I'm hesitant to lynch Netlava right now. Sure, he's been contradicting himself, but if I remember correctly he did that in the last game in addition to twisting other's words, and yet he still wasn't scum.

I'm not too sure about charter being scum either. He was much more defensive as scum in the last game when the wagon started to build on him. He may have learned his lesson, but I'm not getting scum vibes from him right now.

Evaluating people's play relative to last game isn't exactly a bad idea, and is probably inevitable up to a point, but shouldn't be carried too far. As you say, it's quite possible charter has learned a lesson from last game and is playing better as scum. It's also possible Netlava is scum taking advantage of the fact that he was playing in a scummy style as town last game.

This latest response from Netlava strikes me as basically just OMGUSing LG, which is obviously not good. Very tempted to shift my vote back to him right now.

farside, what exactly is the hypocritical bit you're referring to in those two quotes? I find them both independently scummy for different reasons, but I'm not seeing a link between them at the moment.

[camn]

Hello, everyone.

It was a quick read.. I will go over it again.. but for now, I

vote: Battousai

Why? 2 reasons.

a)

FYI, I was lurking on purpose to see who would say something and when. ...

To me.. lurking is almost universally Anti-Town. And I particularly hate lurking ON PURPOSE. What did you hope to gain by it? To see who would notice? I would have noticed!

b)

What if he really was a doc and it was a real breadcrumb? Then if the scum wasn't observant you just outed a town power role. What do you think should happen if CF is found dead tomorrow as the doc?

What IF that happens? Will you be leading the charge for Netlava to Hang? As Punishment? And then using vengeance as your justification if Netlava turned up innocent? Obviously pointing out breadcrumbs is bad play. But Scum need not do it.. they can simply kill. So what do YOU think should happen?

[farside22]

@Macavenger: charter is talking about lining up lynches, but the hypocritical part is he is talking about whether Had is still alive, then calls out another player who did exactly as he did.

[charter]

@Macavenger: charter is talking about lining up lynches, but the hypocritical part is he is talking about whether Had is still alive, then calls out another player who did exactly as he did.

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. In one I'm "lining up lynches" and in the other I'm questioning Bat. I don't see how they're connected either.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

charter 2 (Macavenger, farside22)
Netlava 2 (CF Riot, Lord Gurgi)
Hadhfang 1 (ShadowGirl)
Walnut 1 (Hadhfang)
farside22 1 (Battousai)
camn 1 (charter)
CF Riot 1 (Netlava)
Battousai 1 (camn)

Not Voting:

charter, Walnut

12 alive = 7 to lynch!

ShadowGirl has been prodded.

[Walnut]

If someone can explain why this is okay I will let it go.

I guess what makes it less scummy to me than to some is the lead up to it. In the first case he is responding to CFRiot's

For now, strong FoS on Hadhfang, waiting for the rest of the town's opinion on how to go about testing this claim. Battousai I'm also waiting for you to come in and clear your name.

Charter, whether everyone agrees he should or should not have, gives an opinion.

In the second instance, he was following this post from Battousai:

What if he really was a doc and it was a real breadcrumb? Then if the scum wasn't observant you just outed a town power role. What do you think should happen if CF is found dead tomorrow as the doc?

The first two sentences of this are somewhat reasonable, but I found the final question aggressive but ultimately pointless, which Charter picked up on. If CFRiot is a doctor there are two options. One is that Netlava is scum, in which case he has not just handed a big clue to the scum, as they had it already (by definition). The other is that Netlava is town, in which case there is no real point to that question. He should apologise? Vote for himself for having made a mistake? I don't know- Batt, what were you looking for here?

[Lord Gurgi]

Netlava likely didn't even read my post, just skimmed it, and jumped down my throat as a result of it, he seems way to jumpy and way too willing to flip around on his decisions. Also mod, Doesn't Netlava have two votes?

[Walnut]

Welcome camn! Apologies- it was only when re-reading I realised how much I had paraphrased you in my last post.

So yeah, I had a bit of a re-read, as Blackberry had kind of distracted me and I wanted to get a bit more of a sense of the rest of the day again. One post worth mentioning:

Tinsley- I'll get back to you on that, because if I just post who I find scummy without saying why (I have other games right now, so a reread will have to wait a bit) I'll get asked a bunch of questions and it might distract the town moreso.

Any chance for an update yet?

[Mizzy]

Netlava likely didn't even read my post, just skimmed it, and jumped down my throat as a result of it, he seems way to jumpy and way too willing to flip around on his decisions. Also mod, Doesn't Netlava have two votes?

Fixed, though he did have 2 names by him.

[ShadowGirl]

I apologize for the absence. I'm going to do a reread, and should up by the end of today.

[Battousai]

Camn: While lurking is anti town =/= scum. It's a new strategy that I've seen done that relies on the fact that scum try to shift blame everywhere (typically picking an inactive townie) and making them seem scummy, and townies usually pick up on inactives nearer deadline when they realize that they don't have much to go on when rereading. Now, as I said this is a new strategy, and it didn't really work that well in this game.

Camn & Walnut: I just wanted to see how he would respond to the fact that he, hypothetically, outted a town power role.

Walnut: I completely forgot about that, got busy with other games near deadline.

Netlava: Has basically tunnel vision of CF Riot. Outed the doc (he thought it was the doc at the time). Goes after LG for somewhat defending Netlava (gave an excuse for Netlava's actions), and completely ignores the post by CF Riot, not even touching the discrepencies and contradictions in the post.

BB: Doesn't give this game much effort (reasonable as asked to be replaced), claims a great role out of the blue, and tells people who he feels is scummy, but doesn't give much of a reason why.

Tinsley: This is more gut than anything. He defends CF Riot, saying he is most likely town because he wrote a big post. Scum writes big posts too.

Those three are the main people who

IGMEOY

UNVOTE

, forgot to do that earlier.

[Netlava]

Here's my reply to CF Riot's post. I don't think it was ever in doubt that I was going to reply.

First, his accusation centers around some "contradictions." I could go back and point out why they're technically not contradictions e.g. "I think the standard procedure is to leave him alive and watch him closely" vs "Maybe we should lynch him [Hadh] anyways." However, the bigger point is that much of this is speculation. In this case, I was debating whether a hadh lynch was plausible after all, since many people still had hadhfang on top of their list of suspicions.

Post 46: Misquotes LG's post, adding my name when no reference to me had been made.

I was guessing at his intention based off of my own line of thought. "I think what he meant..."

If there is no scenario or reason for a REAL doc to ever breadcrumb, why then would that be a tactic a scum would try?

I believe that scum are more likely to make that mistake because they aren't in a position to get NK'd or get called out for it. Thus the potential rewards (possibility of backing up a claim) outweigh the far lesser risks. If worse comes to worse, they can shrug if off as an inside joke.

This brings us to the present. All things considered, I see only two possibilities. Either Netlava is scum trying very hard to make me appear scummy and push my lynch, or he has the worst case of tunnel vision I have ever seen. I see the first as being far more likely.

Explain how these two options are scummy. Also, it's an either/or fallacy. I could be a townie trying to push your lynch. How is pushing your lynch scummy?

Also, you added some dramatic words such as "manipulating and scummy" and "calm and calculating" in your post. I don't think you've demonstrated such a link.

[ShadowGirl]

Day 1 has begun! A weird sense of deja vu comes with it. Hey, anyone think Blackberry is a bit odd?

He hasn't even made a post yet, and he's odd? [Other then confirming.]

Still not random voting, although putting one in for Charter

is

tempting. [= There's a 1/16 chance that Hadhfang would get mafia both games, assuming the number of mafia hasn't changed for this game. That's 6.25% chance he's mafia. Just sayin'.

Farside and Lord Gurgi have already matched the input from Near last game, so that's a good sign.

I don't really see anything too scummy about the statistic, it just seems like a random piece of information. However, saying that it's tempting to put a random vote on charter doesn't seem random.

@Charter's contradictions: Everybody makes assumptions, and it's not that hard to believe that there would be three scum like last game. But, I don't like how you call on CF Riot for it when you've done the same.

I think Tinsley is mafia cuz he tried to post an analysis of everyone. And after what we saw last game.

How is posting an analysis post scummy? Unless this is some tell that I just don't know about?

I might have to be replaced, as I am getting lazy in not only this, but all my games. I will stay in this game however only because I have a super-kick-ass role. I probably shouldn't mention that but I feel like bragging. I wonder what discussion this will bring up by me claiming I have a super-kick-ass role... lol.

It's hard to make heads or tails of this claim. Without any provokation, to make a claim? I mean, on hand it wouldn't be a good idea to fake claim when you intend to be replaced as it could create problems for the replacee. It seems a bit attention seeker, but I believe you about 60 %. :\

I'd also like to add that I'm eating the most delicious apple right now. So good.

Uh... I don't think this was a claim, but it sure seems odd. People speculate that it's a doc claim, but what good does that do him at this moment? He'd get NKed if that was the case.

Don't lynch him today and if he lives through the night lynch him tomorrow. Of course the mafia could always not NK him, but I see that as much more unlikely than him actually being mafia (if he lives). Saying this, there's no point in lynching him today, as there are probably two others, so I'll go ahead and

There seems to be a lot of what 'if's' in this post. I'm getting the feeling you're basically saying: 'Don't lynch him because he'll get NKed anyway.' I don't know whether this is pro-town remark - trying to go after someone else seeing as how he's basically sacrificied himself, or whether you're scum and trying to save your partner.

And if we are letting Had live on the reasoning that he has claimed and could prove himself, why would we vote for BB who

also

claimed?

I wouldn't call what BB said a "claim" a kick ass role could mean anything.

What do you think of his claim?

I took more note of you saying that you were feeling lazy and considering being replaced. If that is the case, it is better for you to be replaced than the town to be forced to lynch you.

'Forced'? He hadn't really done that much to deserve to be lynched - his playing is due to him clearly losing interest in the game.

SCUM: Walnut

AND POSSIBLY: Macavenger

It's your last post in that game, you could at least give reasonings as to why you chose those people. Throwing out names is good, but a sentence just pointing something out [about them] would be better.

I just wanted to note that I was correct on my accusations last game. So maybe yall should follow my accusations this game.

Or atleast pressure Walnut and Macavenger !

And of course you're always right.

Hmm, I really want Netlava to defend himself first. He might be continuing on a suspicion from the last game. (I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) Did he hound you last game?

That was that game, this is this game. And, you seem like you've practically made up your mind. Also, I would also like to know the basis about bringing up the possibility of a SK.

Still, out of everyone, charter is the one that seems the most suspicious to me. You are hypocritical and call other people out on being so, and that doesn't bode well with me.

Unvote, Vote charter.

[Netlava]

Part II

Hmm, I really want Netlava to defend himself first. He might be continuing on a suspicion from the last game. (I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) Did he hound you last game?

I have a number of problems with this post. First, the "I really want Netlava to defend himself first" is redundant. Of course I'm going to defend myself! Consequently, it made your post seem superficial. The second problem is the way you asked the question "Did he hound you..." when you could have just checked the last thread yourself. It seemed like a set-up. Also, I think you may have skimmed the last thread already when you said that you had such suspicions, which further made the question unnecessary.

Now that I've answered Riot's accusations, would you answer mine?

I doubt he would do all of that research and write that mammoth of a post (173) if he were scum.

Hmm, last game I pointed out that one of the reasons I thought Mac was town for his long post. But then I noticed that hadh made increasingly long posts.

CF Riot has pointed out how much time he spent on his posts and how long his posts are multiple times in this game. Check his analysis of hadhfang for some examples.

Netlava likely didn't even read my post, just skimmed it, and jumped down my throat as a result of it, he seems way to jumpy and way too willing to flip around on his decisions.

First I'm "tunnel-visioned" and now I'm "flip-flopping?" And yes, I did read all two lines of your post.

---

Anyways my list looks like this:
1. CF Riot
2. Lord Gurgi
3. Macavenger

Macavenger claims the 3 spot over Batt for the use of the word "tempt" as well as my gut feeling. I don't think that's how a townie would think. A townie would be "unsure," but tempted suggests that there is something holding you back, such as prior knowledge of my alignment. Plus, CF Riot seems to be amused at the Riot-batt pairing.

[farside22]

What do you think of his claim?

In regards to BB I take most of what he says with a big grain of salt. He was in a couple of games that are currently taking place and asked to be replaced. I just think he is being silly. (He's being silly everyone I look).

[ShadowGirl]

Hm. I'll go look up some of his games, because I'm pretty puzzled over his 'claim'.

[charter]

@SG, were you even in the last game? References to it completely flew over your head, I don't know why you'd point them out and put trivial comments on them.

I'm going to do a reread when I get back from this weekend with my current thoughts, I'll be

V/LA

until monday probably.

[ShadowGirl]

@SG, were you even in the last game? References to it completely flew over your head, I don't know why you'd point them out and put trivial comments on them.

I'm going to do a reread when I get back from this weekend with my current thoughts, I'll be

V/LA

until monday probably.

Yes... I was in the last game.

Can you elaborate on these 'references'?