Mini #582: Meta Mafia Mini! GAME OVER!

[the silent speaker]

Vote count

:

Johoohno: 2 (TheSweatpantsNinja, massive)
Mr Stoofer: 1 (The Fonz)
EmpTyger: 1 (Mr Stoofer)
mathcam: 1 (DestroyerOfTheSky)

Not voting

: KingPin, mathcam, Johoohno, EmpTyger

4 more votes to lynch Joohohno, 5+ for anyone else.

[EmpTyger]

mathcam:
What do you think should happen the rest of today?

---

Johoohno:

@ EmpTyger:

Another equally valid theory would be difference in playstyle. The way I did it, gave us information that massive is the vote doubler, and an indication on who he wants to give that extra vote to (N0: Primate, N1: TSN). That gives me more to build my view of both their alignments on in combination with their actions D1.
<snip>

But that’s only because massive turned out to be the vote doubler- which you didn’t know at the time you selected your targets. If you’re trying to get information in a way that’s going to disrupt nightchoices- I still don’t understand why you wouldn’t be using that disruption on people you not as suspicious of instead of people you are.

Can I get a list from you, complete from most to least, of who you are suspicious of? I think this has much to do with my problem with you all day.

[The Fonz]

Posting this in all games I haven't posted in yet todaY: my net access could go at any second, so i don't have time to make the returning from vacation post I need to in this thread tonight. Please have patience, and it should be with you tomorrow.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

I plan to post a list like that, but not just yet. I want to do the reread first, and that has to be postponed until some time after July 15 unfortunately (I'll be away all next week with limited access, and up till then there are tons to do).

I'd also like to know if we're going to make a mass claim or not before I do my reread. EMp; you've probably kept notes on who's willing and who's not, what's the count pro and against?

[Johoohno]

EBWOP: If we're doing the mass claim, it would save me some time having it done before my reread (so that I don't have to do to this close to one another)

[EmpTyger]

@ EmpTyger:

I plan to post a list like that, but not just yet. I want to do the reread first, and that has to be postponed until some time after July 15 unfortunately (I'll be away all next week with limited access, and up till then there are tons to do).

That’s not what I’m looking for. I want *past* tense. I want to know what your suspicions *had* been. I want to know who you had thought suspicious and who you hadn’t been thinking suspicious. I do *not* want you to look for new evidence and reevaluate- I want you to put forth the evaluation you’ve already done. Because I’m trying to make sense of the way you have acted since the end of D1, and it’s not adding up.

(I mean, reread and find new evidence and reevaluate and make a new list if you want, too, I don’t care. But that’s not what I’m looking for here. I want a list, 1-8 or however you want to do it, as long as it indicates who and how strongly and relative positioning. That better not take 14 days.)

I'd also like to know if we're going to make a mass claim or not before I do my reread. EMp; you've probably kept notes on who's willing and who's not, what's the count pro and against?

The count is DotS and Fonz would be next to go, DotS and Fonz are unwilling to go, and there is no consensus. Don’t satll because of this.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I feel like I'm sort of just waiting on the inevitable massclaim.

I don't really like DoTS' play today. He's working hard to look protown without really doing much.

[Johoohno]

@ EmpTyger:

My suspects at the end of D1
Likely to be scums: mneme, DotS, The Fonz.
Possible scums: EmpTyger, mathcam
Unsure of how to read: massive (leaning to town), TSN (leaning to scum)
Leaning to town: Stoofer (sloppy, but nevertheless), KingPin

Now, I don't like you dictating the claim order anymore. My order of claims would be:
EmpTyger
DotS
The Fonz
TSN
KingPin

[KingPin]

I am calling BS on Johoohno's choices and suspicious list. First, the players that he is suspicious of being scum should have been his target. 1. Because if he can switch targets, then this is a pretty powerful role to 'catch' scum. By choosing someone he thought was scum he could see if their targets were killed because he would know, based on who targeted who, which one may truly be scum. But by targeting someone not even remotely on his scum list, and then his backup includes a "possible scum" (Emp) and a "leaning town" (Me) he is assuring himself that he wont find anything out about the person's he believes to be scum, like who they had targeted and who was actually targeted by scum. BS.

Secondly, I have to agree with TSN. DotS is not playing protown. On N0 he targeted Primate & Greasy Spot. GS comes up dead and DotS votes immediately for Primate. Primate comes up innocent after a lynch. N1 he targets mathcam & mneme. mneme comes up dead and DotS votes immediately for mathcam. His reasoning is night results. However, based upon the night results from N0 he voted Primate and he was innocent. So why would he vote for mathcam? More than that, since he is the only one who targeted both night kills, how can we trust him at all? Why would he still vote mathcam, knowing that his "night result" was wrong on D1 and may likely be wrong D2 as well.

I like DotS, Johoohno and Stoofer as scum at this point. I also like Stoofer as not a townie, but more like a stripped powerless scum.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Hi Kingpin. I didn't "immediately" vote for mathcam. I'm pretty sure a number of IRL days had passed since Day 2 started before I made that vote. You also seem to ignore the fact that I submitted secondary choices in night 1 but not night 2 meaning that I did have a reason to believe I could play on what happened with a little more confidence. Did you miss that, or leave it out?

I've never said I know mathcam is guilty either (Emp's 548). All I said was that I was voting him based on "night results". At the time I made the vote, I didn't see a compelling reason to believe he was town, but did feel the possible result of my night action could be telling. Nothing has really changed since.

Emp, the above two paragraph may have done a bit to answer some of your questions, too.

DotS:
I have no interest in hearing you tell others how to select their nighttargets when you can’t justify your own. Answer my question.

So, what do you think about my suggestion anyway? It was never meant to be a direction and the question I opened the topic up was was pretty obviously designed to encourage a discussion. Please don't make it out like I'm trying to lead the town when the evidence obviously suggests the oposite.

Wrong way round, sorry, it was Emp -> Fonz, Stoof - > mneme.

If Primate and my first choice went through, he's probably lying - Greasy Spot should have lived. If Primate and my secondary choice went through, then mneme could be scum.

Would you mind, in the context of what has happened since you posted this, explaining this post. I realize that in the very next post that you said to disregard it, but I am requesting it now.

That'd mean role claiming, so I'd rather not. I'm willing to say, though, that for whatever reason, I thought that if my primary choice went through then Primate's must have too, and same with secondary choices. I had nothing to base this on - I wrote that as notes on the fly and never intended to post it.

TSN, I am almost completely at a loss of what I'm supposed to say in response to you comment. You think I haven't contributed anything worthwhile today?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Depends on how you define worthwhile. You haven't posted anything today that makes me feel that you're protown.

Your night actions don't line up with your day actions, and your continued refusal to claim doesn't make me think much better of you either.

[KingPin]

Hi Kingpin.

Hi DotS!

I didn't "immediately" vote for mathcam. I'm pretty sure a number of IRL days had passed since Day 2 started before I made that vote.

You are right, it was your second post of D2 and 4 real days had past since the start. So "immediate" may have been a poor choice of words. How about this: Your first and only vote on D1 was based on N0 results and you were wrong. Your first and only vote D2 is based on N1 results?

You also seem to ignore the fact that I submitted secondary choices in night 1 but not night 2 meaning that I did have a reason to believe I could play on what happened with a little more confidence. Did you miss that, or leave it out?

I realize that you had a secondary target on N0, I am fine with that. You seem to think that this information relieves you of the fact that you targeted both night kills on the night that they were killed. For example, your N0 choice of targeting GS (Greasy Spot) on each of your choices (first and second / backup) still ends with GS being dead.

If we were to assume that your N0 1st choice did not go through (because right now with the information that we have from all other players does not suggest that your 1st choice failed) then why not vote Stoofer today? In fact if your "night results" showed that Primate was guilty of something and in fact Stoofer was the result that you got, then why not vote Stoofer D2 based on N0 results? Instead you follow the same logic from D1 and vote for your 1st target based upon that result. Your reasoning here is flawed IMO.

Wait, I think I can see a way out of this. You think based upon N1 results that mathcam is likely scum? Were you as sure about Primate on N0?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'll be out of town until the 7th.

[DestroyeroftheSky]

Depends on how you define worthwhile. You haven't posted anything today that makes me feel that you're protown.

I don't really know what to say to this besides maybe have a reread? Do you think my contribution is notable lacking in pro-content when compared to other players? I don't understand why you think this is especially true of me, to the point of posting it in thread.

Your night actions don't line up with your day actions, and your continued refusal to claim doesn't make me think much better of you either.

What isn't lining up?

I've stated why I opposed a massclaim earlier. Did you have a problem with it then? If not, why didn't you say something and what's changed now? What's scummy or anti-town about my refusal to claim? I'm not suspicious of you. I'm only asking to understand why you're thinking what you are.

You are right, it was your second post of D2 and 4 real days had past since the start. So "immediate" may have been a poor choice of words. How about this: Your first and only vote on D1 was based on N0 results and you were wrong. Your first and only vote D2 is based on N1 results?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I realize that you had a secondary target on N0, I am fine with that. You seem to think that this information relieves you of the fact that you targeted both night kills on the night that they were killed.

I don't think I even began to suggest this. What do you think my targets including the two night killed players actually means? You seem to be insisting that they implicate me as scum. Why?

If we were to assume that your N0 1st choice did not go through (because right now with the information that we have from all other players does not suggest that your 1st choice failed) then why not vote Stoofer today? In fact if your "night results" showed that Primate was guilty of something and in fact Stoofer was the result that you got, then why not vote Stoofer D2 based on N0 results? Instead you follow the same logic from D1 and vote for your 1st target based upon that result. Your reasoning here is flawed IMO.

But why? What benefit would voting Stoofer have provided? Why should I have ignored the results of Night 2 and dwelled further on Day 1? I didn't see much use in trying to start a Stoofer wagon at that point. A vote on mathcam made a lot more sense to me and I figured it'd be more informative than the almost dead Stoofer-horse.

Wait, I think I can see a way out of this. You think based upon N1 results that mathcam is likely scum? Were you as sure about Primate on N0?

Yes, based on last night's result, I thought that mathcam was likely scum. But I'm as aware as most of us that this setup is not straight forward. The vote had more to do with provoking reactions that declaring mathcam's guilt.

I wasn't sure of Primate at all at the start of Day 1, but obviously became convinced as the day went on, making a case on him myself. I never supported the wagon that grew on Stoofer because I didn't agree that the reason it started was a good one. While it really shouldn't have made me think he was more pro-town, it

did

make me think he was less scum, which was probably me falling for a fallacy. Though, I do remember saying at some point something like, "if Stoofer's scum, it's not because of 'this'."

I think it's entirely possible that I've been targeted at night by a role that's affected my night actions. Emp did target me, but I don't know what that did. It's also possible that scum targeted me too and lied about it.

[Johoohno]

I think it's entirely possible that I've been targeted at night by a role that's affected my night actions. Emp did target me, but I don't know what that did. It's also possible that scum targeted me too and lied about it.

This is one reason that supports a mass claim!

[DestroyeroftheSky]

I disagree. Massclaiming

may

reveal if lying scum, but not whether they targeted me. If Emp thinks his night actions affected my night choice, he could tell us, if he thought it was worth doing so.

[Johoohno]

And I disagree with you. First we now know everyones night targets, and if all roles are claimed now we can compare targets and roles and see where they add up to what we know and where they don't. Depending on what we find we can make a move on that, or go back to scum hunting in other areas beside roles and targets if that gives us nothing (which I find unlikely, when everyone has claimed we will have plenty material to work with).

I don't see a way around this day without a mass claim, and isn't the town in favor? I only here one or two or three voices against it. Therefore we need to get to it. You know my preferred order of claims from post 607, and EmpTyger has served his list in post 571. I suggest that the rest of you also serve your lists, or agree with one already voiced, and then we try to make one majority list from that.

[KingPin]

I'll be out until July 7th.

I will re-think the massclaim until then. Right now though it does not appear that we can get around it.

[mathcam]

I agree. I feel overwhelmed with information at the moment, and contributing to that is the mind-boggling number of possibilities for what roles are still hidden, and their targets. No doubt my mind is being partially swayed by the fact that I've already claimed, but it's starting to feel to me like the rest of the day is going to have to include a massclaim.

Cam

[Mr Stoofer]

Right now though it does not appear that we can get around it.

QFT.


Any debate over whether it would be better to leave a massclaim until Day 3 or later is academic now. It's plain as day that we are not going to move forward without a massclaim -- we'll just end up going around and around forever speculating on possible interpretations of the nightchoices.

[Johoohno]

I also find it noteworthy that EmpTyger, who has psoted almost every day for a week, all of a sudden disappear when I ask him to be next to claim (post 607). I know he hasn't been posting elsewhere either, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is a "legitimate" reason for his absence.

[Mr Stoofer]

Personally, I don't care about the order of claims. Let's just do them so we can get the game moving forward. (NB. Loads of posts =/= moving forward.)

[EmpTyger]

I am trying to decide how much of a rant to post to DotS. And it basically comes down to how likely a 3-person mafia including Johoohno is, a possibility I can’t discount. Because if that is case, either he’s mafia or the town will need his vote (and judgment) to win.

In any case, I’ll reward him for doing the second-best job I have ever seen of attracting suspicion for no good reason, and I’ll retract my conclusion about his alignment. I have found 2 other explanations for his behavior: he is suicidal, or he is an atrocious player; either of which fit his behavior as well or better than him having to being protown.

Nevertheless I am *still* seeing him as town as a very real possibility, inheriting Primate’s legacy of distractingly imploding right as I’m about to argue a Stoofer-Johoohno-mathcam mafia. But his play D1 has been atrocious, his play D2 has been atrocious, and if he is a townsperson, his inability to play decently is a liability. I am frustrated enough to consider the alternative- that he’s mafia with a death wish.

{DotS, Johoohno, mathcam, Stoofer}. I feel certain that the mafia are entirely in that set. No one else’s behavior comes close.

---

Johoohno:
You don’t like my dictating the claim order so much that… you propose exactly what I “dictated”?

<snip>
Now, I don't like you dictating the claim order anymore. My order of claims would be:
EmpTyger
DotS
The Fonz
TSN
KingPin

<snip>
DotS
Fonz
TSN
KingPin
[I was going to place myself between Fonz and TSN, but someone less biased can insert me into that list.]
<snip>

Perhaps you meant that you don’t like *mathcam”’s decision to place me, but wanted to slander me instead of him? Which is it: Are you mafia will DotS and this is your best shot at throwing him a lifeline, or mafia with mathcam and so obviously can’t attack him? Both?

I mean, basically all you’re saying- without giving any reason- that you want me (who targeted DotS) to go before DotS, your alleged top suspect, who others are pressing because of problems with his claim so far, and who has been stalling and rolefishing me and trying to get out of claiming all day. Why?

As for my posting habits, you and KingPin can have a nice debate without me, I’m sure.

---

mathcam:
It’s just like yesterday. I feel you are playing this game far, far too passively to be a townsperson. I can’t remember ever seeing you actively trying to find mafia- just participating as minimally as you can off of what others are doing.

Heck, look at DotS’s actions today. You should have *something* to say about that, especially given how he’s fingered you. Or something to say about how he’s avoiding a claim. Or some suspicions. Something. Anything. But you can do is weakly go along with a massclaim. Despite the fact that you before you said, “If we have enough information to make a reasonable attempt at a lynch today, then there is no need to claim“ now that’s sheepily the only option you can mention?

[The Fonz]

I would feel a lot more comfortable with a massclaim if my top suspects weren't all pushing it.

[EmpTyger]

I would feel a lot more comfortable with a massclaim if my top suspects weren't all pushing it.

heh You noticed that too? Especially considering their prior feelings.