Normal 222: Black Versus White Mafia (Endgame)

[Something_Smart]

Henlo.

[Something_Smart]

Slow down.

What's the reasoning?

[Something_Smart]

Mod error. He initially got a "Vanilla" result, but it was later corrected to "No Result". General consensus is that the mod got roster's target wrong.

._.

[Something_Smart]

im here

and im VT

kill me if it'll help but im just town

[Something_Smart]

So I gather that Boon claimed tracker who tracked someone who then claimed ascetic, causing him to backpedal into the visitor claim.

If he thought the claim would be taken seriously, then he's scum. If not, it's NAI.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, I saw

I'm a macho tracker enabler.

[Something_Smart]

Don't really get why the massclaim was done so soon, but ok.

[Something_Smart]

I was in a game where a Mafioso claimed to be Informed out of the gate. They either claimed scum had a Strongman or a Ninja ability (I don't remember which). Scum did have two of them in fact iirc (either 2 Strongman roles or 2 NinJa roles).

Oh hey, I modded this game. It was two strongmen, and the guy who claimed it was one of them. He got caught because his dayplay was awful, but I actually was really impressed by that claim.

There's also the time that Boon claimed informed miller as scum.

[Something_Smart]

There are so many issues with your Tracker claim and when you realized that, you backpedaled into Visitor.

Do you think that the tracker claim was meant to be a serious claim?

[Something_Smart]

Why reaction test a vig claim?

[Something_Smart]

Something Smart here can confirm that I claim all the time like that as town

Yes.

and he should be able to see I’m town at this point.

No.

I don't think you could have reasonably expected that tracker claim to be believed, meaning it was just a dumb Boon gambit and not indicative of your alignment.

[Something_Smart]

I cannot decide whether RD made that move as scum trying to confirm himself or as town who tried to gambit and scum RD saw the opportunity to mislynch him.

I mean if he's scum his team has a ninja which means he must have known there was a tracker. I hardly think he'd make that claim and have it be serious.

[Something_Smart]

And he did it to draw the CC??? Why not that?

Well yeah, that's what I'm thinking about. That seems to be the most obvious scum motivation for it.

That seems like a super weak play, though. Like, if they do have a ninja, what are they so scared of a tracker for?

[Something_Smart]

PGO's not normal anyway lol.

[Something_Smart]

The question remains though, if you're informed of a ninja, you must have expected there to be a tracker? Why did you claim tracker knowing that the real one might CC?

[Something_Smart]

Is the cursed slot my slot?

[Something_Smart]

@S_S: Sorry to put you on the spot bro, but we kind of need you to pick a wagon ASAP.

I don't know why people are putting so much weight on my opinion when I literally just replaced in and still haven't read shit.

Regarding Boon, I've seen him fakeclaim as scum upwards of half a dozen times, and usually he has his shit together better than this.

He doesn't hate bussing anymore but I believe he still hates being bussed, so the wagon on him that AFAICT is solely due to his Boonclaim makes me think he's more likely town than not.

[Something_Smart]

Damn.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Croag

[Something_Smart]

Does that mean you don't think PM is scum?

[Something_Smart]

I just don’t think town withhold that modifier in order to catch someone in a lie. Too convenient for my taste.

[Something_Smart]

In fairness, if there's a ninja, the tracker was not all that useful to us.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think Mumble is scum.

[Something_Smart]

In fact I'm probably going to end up voting between the two people who instantly jumped on him.

[Something_Smart]

Seeing Rick visit someone wouldn't have confirmed anything, though...

[Something_Smart]

Why would you claim visitor as ninja, a role that specifically cannot be seen visiting?

If Rick is scum it's likely he has a visiting role and someone ELSE on his team is a ninja. In that case they have nothing to fear from the tracker but a lot to gain if Rick gets false confirmed.

[Something_Smart]

Full disclosure, I advised him not to protect her, but I don't know if he listened to me.

I won't say what I advised him to do, in case he doesn't want to publicly reveal whether he still has the shot.

[Something_Smart]

We should hear roster's result before we do anything.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, it was my point.

[Something_Smart]

Points awarded for the creative insults.

Points promptly subtracted for thinking a vig would ever shoot Chickadee.

[Something_Smart]

Okay that's enough.

[Something_Smart]

Rick was never informed of Ninjas, he made it up to make the Tracker feel not as useful.

Didn't Rick claim his information way before the tracker claimed?

[Something_Smart]

Rick is probably scum. I said as much to Something_Smart during last night.

I don't see why he'd kill the person whom he was trying to get to confirm him, though.

Like I'm pretty sure he would just kill me given my claim and the fact that I'm one of the people who can most reliably catch him.

[Something_Smart]

No result does not equal no visits. That said, a vanilla cop would never check someone with a confirmed neighborizer power, so it's moot.

Also roster is the vanilla cop claim, not Vork.

[Something_Smart]

Err, no result does not equal not vanilla...

Uh I don't understand your argument in the slightest A50.

[Something_Smart]

Oh my god please stop the personal attacks.

[Something_Smart]

This is why I think there are no ninjas, and it was a bluff by Rick.

So he just got lucky that there was a tracker?

[Something_Smart]

Hello new friends.

Titus we need results from you.

[Something_Smart]

Rick claimed tracker on D1?

I thought he claimed on D3 and was immediately rebuked by VD claiming ascetic.

[Something_Smart]

Since post 1480? :thonk:

[Something_Smart]

Oh uh.

That's not cool pisskop. You can't just let a slot be afk like that going into the night :/

[Something_Smart]

Rick Dalton - informed visitor (there is a ninja)
roster/Titus - vanilla cop (don't remember if whether shots were limited was claimed or not)
Vaultdweller - Ascetic JOAT (Vig, JK) - shot eth0s
Mumble/PP - JOAT (neighborizer, commuter, BG) - neighborized me N1, commuted N3
Something_Smart - macho tracker enabler

[Something_Smart]

I believe there were no good targets on N2, and Mumble explained his logic for commuting on N3 just a few pages ago which you really should read.

[Something_Smart]

Well, sort of. He explained why he didn't BG, and I think he commuted just because why not.

[Something_Smart]

Also how could this be LYLO? 12:5 with this level of claimed power would be absurd.

[Something_Smart]

You're gonna attempt VCA on me of all people?

[Something_Smart]

...that's an RVS wagon.

[Something_Smart]

Rick Dalton - informed visitor (there is a ninja)
roster/Titus - vanilla cop (don't remember if whether shots were limited was claimed or not)
Vaultdweller - Ascetic JOAT (Vig, JK) - shot eth0s
Mumble/PP - JOAT (neighborizer, commuter, BG) - neighborized me N1, commuted N3
Something_Smart - macho tracker enabler

[Something_Smart]

Knowing Mumble's personality I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he claimed that even though his team didn't want him to.

Also, I did suggest that he not protect anyone, so it wouldn't have been completely out of the blue.

[Something_Smart]

The difference between killing the tracker and killing the enabler is that if they kill me, Chickadee still gets one more result.

[Something_Smart]

Kills are always resolved last, I believe. Same reason a jailkeeper who dies still jails their target.

[Something_Smart]

It seems really weird for whether an enabler disables that role the night they die or the next night to depend on the type of role enabled.

[Something_Smart]

What it actually is doesn't matter now; it only matters what the scum thought would happen, which we have no way of knowing. But I think my way is more intuitive?

[Something_Smart]

Enabler's not am action, though.

[Something_Smart]

I never told Mumble to commute...?

[Something_Smart]

@S_S: What exactly did Mumble say about his role action to you overnight?

He only asked whether to guard someone. I told him he shouldn't, then after the night was over I asked him if he guarded anyone and he said no. We never discussed commuting.

[Something_Smart]

Oh, 1607 was just me keeping the possibilities open in case Mumble didn't want to claim what he did. I told him to do nothing.

[Something_Smart]

If that's a soft it's a very bad one.

[Something_Smart]

I still don't believe that there isn't a ninja.

[Something_Smart]

Wouldn't it just be "keep Rick from getting confirmed"?

[Something_Smart]

Again, Scum would have easily NK'd you, whether to prove your Tracker claim false or to kill an actual Tracker, but the kill did not happen.

Didn't Chemist who had a bodyguard shot die that night?

[Something_Smart]

I should hope you're confident in your read on the confirmed vig...?

[Something_Smart]

S_S, you've defended Rick and PP/Mumble. That would imply scum didn't fakeclaim anything beyond VT from your perspective if you're town.

First of all, just because I defend someone doesn't mean I townread them. And even if I did (and I do townread Rick, not sure about PP), that doesn't mean that "from my perspective" they can't be scum. I'm not gonna claim that my reads are GOOD in a game I replaced into so late.

Also, you forgot Titus. Titus could be scum.

[Something_Smart]

I think Vorky may be town but beyond that not really. Like I said my preference among the VT's would be the two who jumped on Mumble at the start of the day (A50 and PM) though obviously that changes if PP flips scum.

[Something_Smart]

I resent that comparison.

[Something_Smart]

Why couldn't the slot be a scum rolecop or something? Or a scum tracker, for that matter.

[Something_Smart]

Far more likely Chemist was on Roster than Rick N2.

Chemist would only guard roster if he actually roster would die, though, right?

[Something_Smart]

Titus, any insight about that in the neighborhood? Did Chemist say or hint at who he would protect?

[Something_Smart]

Why would you votepark a confirmed vig?

[Something_Smart]

S_S: It's confirmed at this point that Mumble neighbored you, but outside of Night 3, did you communicate with Mumble in any way?

I mean we talked in the hood before N3, but not really about anything important.

[Something_Smart]

I'll summarize the neighborhood when I get home tonight. There really isn't much in there other than me telling Mumble not to protect anyone.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: Neighborhood synopsis

Mumble: You were my biggest townread, I think Croag could be scum.
Mumble (2 days later): Please say something here.
-johhny sno replaces Saudade-
Johhny: why did you townread my slot?
Mumble: Saudade was posting in a way that he usually does as town, and most of the other players were pretty bad.
Johhny: I suppose, normally the way Saudade posts gets him suspected so I was surprised that you townread him.
Mumble: How are you feeling about the game?
Johhny: I don't trust VD, the claim could have been a scum panic claim, but he was wagoned fast so I may not vote him right away. Scum seem to be happy with how the game's going, since not much is going on.
Johhny: Who do you want to add to the hood next?
Mumble: I'm only one-shot.
Mumble (4 days later): What happened? What do you think of Rick's lie?
Johhny: I've been busy. Rick lying isn't really indicative of much.
Mumble: Does Rick lie a lot when he's town?
-S_S replaces johhny sno-
S_S: Yeah, he does.
Mumble: Let me know what you're thinking once you've read up.
S_S: My thoughts on reading up usually suck, so don't expect much.
S_S: You thought Rick could be town, why is that? I think he could be too, but you never know with him.
S_S: I'm thinking PMysterious, The Fonz, Vaultdweller, Chickadee, and Rick are town. I'd like to lynch outside of them.
Mumble: I thought Rick might be town because you told me he lies as town frequently.
Mumble: My gut says LUV is scum. Maybe Vork as well.
Mumble: Should I guard anyone tonight?
Mumble: Looking at how the wagon went, Rick could be scum too.
S_S: Because scum were trying to save Rick?
S_S: I wouldn't guard anyone tonight.
S_S: LUV has left absolutely no impression on me thus far.
S_S: Scum-Rick usually has a good claim but weird arguments, this is the opposite though. I think he's more likely town.
Mumble: (In response to "Because scum were trying to save Rick?") Yeah, Croag's wagon went so quickly compared to Rick's.
S_S: That was probably just because deadline, but you are right that Rick is hard to wagon as scum.
S_S: Scum-Rick probably kills me tonight.
Mumble: I just meant that Croag's wagon popped up closer to deadline.
S_S: Did you guard somebody?
Mumble: No, I didn't.
-PenguinPower replaces Mumble-
S_S: You should read all of D4. Mumble did some weird stuff.
PP: Oh, he freaked out on A50, that's happened in the past. Why didn't you want him to guard Chickadee?
S_S: Cause of the likely ninja, I figured scum would hit the macho or the ascetic claim.
PP: Who's macho/ascetic?
S_S: I'm macho, VD is ascetic.

[Something_Smart]

I'd prefer A50 out of those three.

[Something_Smart]

Also, with the lack of town power we've seen, 14:3 isn't impossible, but I think it's more likely 13:3.5 (3 scum plus a traitor).

[Something_Smart]

Wanting to lynch me in LyLo/MyLo has alwa6s proven to be a scumtell of late.

I mean, I have three townreads plus one conftown. That leaves four people.

But after this reaction I'm even more down to lynch A50.

[Something_Smart]

Baker, would you vote A50?

[Something_Smart]

SS, are you town reading Baker?

No. But if he refuses to vote A50 and then A50 flips scum I'll feel even worse about him.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: A50

[Something_Smart]

I've made my vote. If anyone wants to hear an argument for why A50 is scum, I can put one together.

To be honest for me it was mostly process of elimination, plus his nasty Mumble vote yesterday, plus his vote on me.

[Something_Smart]

This setup was really scumsided.

Interested to see what the reviewers thought of it.

[Something_Smart]

I mean really strong townplay can overcome the most scumsided of setups but it's still an unfair standard to hold you against.