Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608

[icemanE]

@IcemanE: Last I knew I was #3. When and why did I go up?

When muffin replaced Korts my suspicion of him went down a bit, because I just finished a game where muffin was town. I was expecting something that felt different if muffin were scum this game but he sounds just like his town self. For now I think it's a good enough reason to put him on the backburner and wait to see if he starts dropping scumtells.

So since I moved him down on the list, you moved up to #2. That means my lynch candidates are:

1. Farside
2. Tek
3. Muffinhead

I guess it makes more sense for me to

unvote - vote: farside

since she's still on top of the list. I still feel she is the safest bet, as I explained earlier in the game. I also liked your reaction enough that I feel justified in removing my vote for the moment.

Votecount as of post 350

farside22 - 4 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, icemanE)
dcorbe - 2 (killa_seven, farside22)
Muffinhead - 1 (Pokerface)
Surye - 1 (Rishi)
Tekkactus - 1 (dcorbe)

Not Voting - 3 (Surye, Muffinhead, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[dcorbe]

I like where this is going again.

Unvote

Vote: farside22

[muffinhead]

@Blonde and Muffinhead:

You're confusing an eagerness to wagon with an eagerness to lynch. Wagoning people is a good tool to get information out of D1, and it's in my opinion the only way to make D1 productive. I was supportive of a farside lynch; however, in lieu of that happening (which it doesn't seem as if it is going to at this point) I'd like to get another wagon going in order to get someone to drop some real scum tells instead of all this circumstantial crap that everyone is clinging to.

I don't think there's enough evidence to support a lynch on anyone else right now but that shouldn't stop us from wagoning someone, even if the reason they're being wagoned is weak.

@Blonde: All you're doing is posting large PBPAs to look busy. PBPAs on D1 really don't mean much and I wish you would stop. Your refusal to commit to any one case makes you look suspicious. It seems like you would rather throw doubt and suspicion around rather than do any real scum hunting.

It's mighty difficult to draw conclusions on D1 of who is connected to who and for what reasons. These relationships tend to become clearer once the results of successful wagons can be examined.

FoS Mr. Blonde

@dcorbe- I know what ur trying to do by badonwaging to try get some more information, however you dont go out there and say "lets badonwagon this person". This is because the person now knows its not to be lynched and therefore wont reveal anything or reveal a minimal amount of information.

Its this that seems odd

I like where this is going again.

Unvote

Vote: farside22

Now I personally dont understand the farside wagon so can you explain ur vote please?

unvote - vote: farside

since she's still on top of the list. I still feel she is the safest bet, as I explained earlier in the game. I also liked your reaction enough that I feel justified in removing my vote for the moment.

The same applies for icemane. How is she the safest person to lynch? I cant find where you said that and dont have time for a proper look.

Just a reminder that anyone can explain to me the why farside is scummy, if not then there is no chance i will join in.

Now what is the point in saying that. There are only 3 reasons that I can imagine for doing this

1- hes town using really unecessary sarcasm
2- he is scum making farside look sus so his partner stays alive
3- he is scum thinking he has lost.

Now I doubt reason 1 and really doubt reason 3 leaving him as scum. I would be really intrested to see tek explain this post.

I know what a stretch it is for someone to be sarcastic in

a game being played on the internet

. I was unaware this was such serious business, I'll try not to smile from now on. :rolleyes:

Overall he's being dodgy, evasive and he's actively lurking.

Dodgy and evasive were both pulled out of your ass and don't apply at all. I've answered every question directed at me quickly and clearly, and if you can find an example of one that I might have missed, I apologize for not seeing it originally and I'll answer it.

I would like to see a wagon get going so we can get some more useful information instead of going off into our own individual tangents about who we think is scum and who isn't

"I don't think we should vote on individual tangents. Therefor, I'm going to vote on my individual tangent." Way to go, D. Quality reasoning.

@IcemanE: Last I knew I was #3. When and why did I go up?

Well yes of course u can be sarcastic and have fun, that is the aim of the game besides winning. However the timing was terrible in that post because
a- if you were not being sarcastic then you are scum
b- I get no real indication telling me you were being sarcastic.

Also you dont have to apologise in this game. I personally learnt that early on that instead of apologising you have to go out there and prove urself.

[Tekkactus]

Being cordial is never a bad thing.

As for there being a "sign" of my sarcasm, there was a at the end of my post. Also, it was in Caps Lock.

And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't give up with no votes on me, either. Use your muffinhead.

[muffinhead]

haha. Ok then tek just wondering who do you think is most likly to be scum so far in the game since you havnt got a vote on anyone?

[roflcopter]

farside, seriously, i had gotten the idea from one of your earlier posts that you understood by now if you were town that dcorbe is too. so please stop voting for him. if you're scum, well, carry on and i'm glad i'm so hellbent on lynching you.

[farside22]

farside, seriously, i had gotten the idea from one of your earlier posts that you understood by now if you were town that dcorbe is too. so please stop voting for him. if you're scum, well, carry on and i'm glad i'm so hellbent on lynching you.

I have no reason to believe that dcorbe is town. Care to explain how you do know this?

[Tekkactus]

haha. Ok then tek just wondering who do you think is most likly to be scum so far in the game since you havnt got a vote on anyone?

roflcopter I'm on the fence about. I don't like how his aggressive bandwagoning is casually shrugged off because of meta-reasoning. If this was his first game on MS I think a lot more suspicion would be pointed his way.

farside has done some things that could be seen as scumtells, but I still believe that she's town.

dcorbe is decreasing on my watchlist, but I still think he's scummy.

I'd like to hear more from Killa 7. While Surye and Mr. Blond have been under fire for their lurking habits, he's flown under the radar. Celebloki did very little before he was replaced, as well.

[farside22]

fyi:

Will be on V/LA from June 28 and back on July 1st

[icemanE]

The same applies for icemane. How is she the safest person to lynch? I cant find where you said that and dont have time for a proper look.

Just a reminder that anyone can explain to me the why farside is scummy, if not then there is no chance i will join in.

I think a full reread would put everything in way better context and make you a much more useful part of the town.

This is from post 250 where I explained my reasons for voting farside:

3. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

[Mr. Blonde]

I like where this is going again.

Unvote
Vote: farside22

Okay, you've been jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon giving very little reasons - and defending by saying "my words make no sense". My post 338 points out how:
- dcorbe jumps from one vote to another very quickly, giving whatsoever no reasons besides "others must be right"
- worries about his imago (post 230)
- wants to lynch anybody besides himself, and actually accuses me of this

unvote
vote dcorbe

[Mr. Blonde]

Edit: darn quotes

Fixed

[icemanE]

Okay, you've been jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon giving very little reasons - and defending by saying "my words make no sense". My post 338 points out how:
- dcorbe jumps from one vote to another very quickly, giving whatsoever no reasons besides "others must be right"
- worries about his imago (post 230)
- wants to lynch anybody besides himself, and actually accuses me of this

You're very right about that. I have questioned his motives and methods of voting all along and they continue to be suspect.

[muffinhead]

Ok once again ive had a look over the game escpically the farside wagon which started from this comment below

Not having an avatar is a scum tell now?

I guess all the newbies here are in bad shape then!

@Mr. Blonde: curious why me not voting deserves scrutiny.

Someone needs to join a newbie game me thinks.

unvote:
vote: dcorbe

Now I understand how this caused a wagon due to the fact that farsides vote was based on the fact he doesnt doesnt have an aviatar which has nothing to do with this game.

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

dcorbe wagon is being ridden by scum, methinks

As such,

unvote, vote: farside

.

Oh well... let's put some bandwagon moving:

unvote
vote farside22

its seven to lynch.

farside has four votes so far.

My vote is safe, even if the deadline hits, because the four votes put her over the top in case of a deadline.

Vote: Farside

Grimmy
see ya monday

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post. Yet i see posts like this

thats pretty fatalistic. i still think farside's the right play.

@rofl- do you want farside lynched based on that one post? If not then plz explain.

Ok this next quote really drew my atention.

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.
I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

I'd like you to do a better job of explaining why you're so convinced that I'm scummy based on meta conversation which everyone pretty much agrees has no relevance to the game.

If you are town and for the sake of your team mates, please either quote posts, talk about some of my actions.. something.. *anything* that could be useful to us at all. Either that or back off until you have a better case.

A lynch this early on D1 is more likely to have a bad result rather than a good one.

Votecount as of post 125

farside22 - 6 (Roflcopter, IcemanE, Mr. Blonde, Korts, Grimmy, dcorbe)
Rishi - 1 (Tekkactus)
dcorbe - 1 (farside22)
Grimmy - 1 (Celebloki)

Not Voting - 3 (Pokerface, Surye, Rishi)

7 to lynch

dcorbe - What's suspicious about this post is that you recommend we not lynch this early and yet you don't withdraw your vote, which would take farside off of L-1.

The thread deserves a reread by the mod. Technically it looks like she was already hammered.

I voted (Lynch), then pokerface unvoted to put her at L-1

I thought she was at L-2, actually that's why I didn't remove my vote.

@Mod?

Now dcorbe comments that its to early to lynch however he then points out that farside should be lynched already with 7 votes. This gives me the impression that dcorbe is trying to hide the fact that he really wants farside lynch which is a scummy thing to do. Therefore

fos dcorbe

[icemanE]

@ Muffin - You have set up a strawman with the way you frame the above quotes. You turn everyone's reason for voting farside into "she had one scummy post". That is inaccurate and is not representative of the way that part of the game unfolded. There were three seperate reasons provided for the votes. Blonde's was the closest to what you give as a reason, but it is still inaccurate, as Blonde states that he was voting her for the purpose of bandwagoning. Bandwagoning and lynching are two seperate things. Grouping all three players votes into one category and giving a single reason for it is a clever way of subtly pinning suspicion on players without actually having to come out and say it.

The use of this tactic returns you to the realm of scum, in which your predecessor, Korts, dwelled.

unvote - vote: Muffinhead

[icemanE]

Additionally, you come very close to contradicting your own reasoning in your post.

Now I understand how this caused a wagon due to the fact that farsides vote was based on the fact he doesnt doesnt have an aviatar which has nothing to do with this game.

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

[muffinhead]

@ Muffin - You have set up a strawman with the way you frame the above quotes. You turn everyone's reason for voting farside into "she had one scummy post". That is inaccurate and is not representative of the way that part of the game unfolded. There were three seperate reasons provided for the votes. Blonde's was the closest to what you give as a reason, but it is still inaccurate, as Blonde states that he was voting her for the purpose of bandwagoning. Bandwagoning and lynching are two seperate things. Grouping all three players votes into one category and giving a single reason for it is a clever way of subtly pinning suspicion on players without actually having to come out and say it.

The use of this tactic returns you to the realm of scum, in which your predecessor, Korts, dwelled.

unvote - vote: Muffinhead

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me. All I can do is answer what you have said.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

[dcorbe]

Okay now I'm being accused by blonde of switching votes, and I'm not. If you read back far enough one of my original votes was on farside, and since a farside wagon has gotten going again that's where it is.

I've said many times that I'm supportive of a farside lynch and I've also explained why.

[icemanE]

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

What I'm saying is that the way you frame those three quotes implies something. You say

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

which is more or less accurate. However, after you cite the three votes, you say:

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

There is a difference between putting someone at L-1 by way of bandwagon and actually wanting to lynch that person. People form bandwagons to put pressure on someone. They don't necessarily want to lynch them when they place their votes, but people tend to drop more scum tells when they are under pressure - so lynching is not always the end goal when a vote is placed, yet your post attempts to make it seem as it that was the intent of all the votes when in fact you've invented that intention yourself.

[muffinhead]

Ok before I start I need to explain why the reasonsing for voting farside in the below quote is poor

. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

Now as you know there are 3 masons in this game. Now unless they are incredibly bad, they will make sure that a mason isnt lynched. Therefore there is a 45% chance that any person we lynch today will be scum.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

Well I have no control over what korts has done before i replaced him. So if I get lynched for his actions then i will be really po since ive posted alot in this game but ill know personally that I personally done nothing wrong.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

You are right. For some reason I got the feeling that everyone wanted to lynch farside. Proberbly because you and dcorbe put votes back on her and ive seen nothing really scummy from her recently.

Since thats the case then @dcorbe- what is your reasoning to put the vote back on farside? As im STILL waiting for ur orginal answer.

ty for explaining icemane

[icemanE]

A logical fallacy I've begun to see as recurrent through both rofl and dcorbe's posts is:

Argument from repetition: A simple but sometimes effective technique which simply requires a player or faction to repeat its (essentially false) argument so many times, usually in virtually identical words, that the group begins to see it as an assumption and acts on it. This can be an especially effective technique in the endgame when the scum are aware that they just need to confuse a floundering ProTown player, and the Town is unaware that they are actually facing a Lynch-or-Lose situation.

It works well when a player has an established reputation for excellent logic or play, and even moreso when faced with lurking or newbie players on the other side. The sheer weight of posts may prevent anyone from making an effective argument against them, and they may begin to believe "well, what harm can it do to test the idea?"

I'm wary of both the charges rofl tends to lead by repeating a simple idea over and over again briefly but authoritatively and the similar tactic employed by dcorbe, especially highlighted in his most recent post.

[Rishi]

Fallen behind in this game. Will try to get caught up soon.

[muffinhead]

mod can we send prods around?

Im not here to muck around, im here to win.

[Qman]

Yup, I was planning on doing that when i got home from work... which I just have.

Edit

Prodded K7 and Suyre everyone else has posted since Wednesday (grimmy is on a V/LA

[killa seven]

word, my bad im here.