Open 74 - C/9ths (Game Over!) before 601

[Iron Man]

TSN, I'm not getting how you think that donkey is aggresive? Donkey has, so far, been level and fairly inconspicious. Now, if you were going to try to puh a lynch based purely on aggression, did you miss the D1 EL/ZS arguement? Were you taking a nap or something? That argument was probably the most aggressive event this entire game. Granted, I dont really think ZS is scum, I just think that you are kinda throwing at the wrong catcher on this.

FoS TSN

[DarlaBlueEyes]

EL, the point of WIFOM is that theres no way to validate either side.

If I said Scum always defend each other, and you say, no they don't, and i said, well they would expect us all to believe that they would not be so dumb as to do so, so they do it, and claim its WIFOM that scum would not do that.

Its covering your tracks, IMO, I am really good with either Mokina or EL for a lynch today. I didn't like Mokina's OMGUS vote and hostile attitude honestly, thats why my vote's sitting here for now, but as it stands I would gladly hammer/vote for EL as well.

TSN is the one i have the most trouble reading, I still feel he might be scum, but I would prefer lynch one of the afore mentioned two first.

and I would like to see some of those scum tells as well EL, if you consider me not letting off the person/s I find most scummy = scum tell, Then I think you need to look up the definition of a scum tell.

And i will not lynch someone based solely on lurking, being that you are one of the more active players and incredibly scummy yourself, I have honed in on you and Mokina for the same reasons. I may be a bit black and white but thats because You have given me a ton to go on, and the lurkers have not. and most of our lurkers are newbies, now that mike was replaced I am hoping to get more input from others. Just having armlx in here is generating a lot more discussion which this game needs.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

EBWOP:

I agree on the donkeyz thing, how was he being agressive?

[Mokina]

Mokina FOSing the "lurkers" is not good.

FoSes don't put anyone closer to a lynch. They do, however, get people posting. Keep in mind that even a vanilla townie isn't helping the town one bit if he or she lurks. I pressured them to start talking, and they talked. It didn't much matter their alignment. The more the scum talk, the easier they are to spot, and the more the townies talk, the faster we reach a conclusion. I stand by my reasoning.

I'm kind of concerned that you don't see lurking as a valid argument; scum are at least as likely as anyone else to want to keep their heads down. Assuming the mod plans to replace those who don't pick up on prods, it's completely safe to FoS people who haven't been posting.

There was about one instance where Mokina/EL disagreed over each other (once each) D1/D2 and they quickly retracted their votes. TSN refused to vote for either without a truely good reason, only saying he thinks lurkers are more likely to be scum, which i can agree to to an extent, but his refusal to look at the other two based on activity is anti-town.. This is just way too much for me to deal with, when half the town is lurking. So if you must, put me out of my misery, and town..good luck. You're gonna need it.

This doesn't feel like a scummy post to me. Is this real or a trap?

[armlx]

Feeling nervous Snix?

Comments like this, though my read on him may be based on a flawed example.

FoSes don't put anyone closer to a lynch.

They do indirectly, and in no way should you be suspicious of a lurker until they voluntarily aren't replaced and don't post.

[Mokina]

They do indirectly, and in no way should you be suspicious of a lurker until they voluntarily aren't replaced and don't post.

Problem is, you don't really know when someone "voluntarily isn't replaced." Keep in mind that at the time it was apparent that some people in the game were picking up on prods without posting. That's what I meant by lurking.

[armlx]

Keep in mind that at the time it was apparent that some people in the game were picking up on prods without posting.

Was it? BTW, that is what I mean by what you singled out.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN, I'm not getting how you think that donkey is aggresive? Donkey has, so far, been level and fairly inconspicious. Now, if you were going to try to puh a lynch based purely on aggression, did you miss the D1 EL/ZS arguement? Were you taking a nap or something? That argument was probably the most aggressive event this entire game. Granted, I dont really think ZS is scum, I just think that you are kinda throwing at the wrong catcher on this.

This post thoroughly bewilders me. I haven't said anything about donkeyz's aggression level. Were you taking a nap when you read my posts?

Now, what I

did

say was that donkeyz worries too much about what people think, which can be seen in such posts as:

Well considering how everyone is switching to Darla, wouldn't that make it seem like I am joining the bandwagon?

So what if people

did

think you were joining it? You support it already, don't you? Why is it more important that people not think you're joining bandwagons rather than hunt the person you nominally think is scum.

[Mokina]

If I said Scum always defend each other, and you say, no they don't, and i said, well they would expect us all to believe that they would not be so dumb as to do so, so they do it, and claim its WIFOM that scum would not do that.

Horray! Way to bring reverse psychology into this discussion!

You illustrate the very nature of WIFOM here. Armlx argued that scum would defend each other if at all possible, and EL stated (correctly) that making assumptions about whether or not scum would defend each other is impossible to validate. Easy to see, end of story.

I feel like you've got a lot of tunnel vision against EL. I can give you the benefit of a doubt and review his case, but you really shouldn't take that mindset looking at any player, even one you're arguing against. That post about the WIFOM feels like you're

trying

to find something wrong with him, rather than simply noticing an error.

[Mokina]

Keep in mind that at the time it was apparent that some people in the game were picking up on prods without posting.

Was it? BTW, that is what I mean by what you singled out.

Singled out? Elaborate.

[armlx]

Problem is, you don't really know when someone "voluntarily isn't replaced

This is what I referring to by singled out.

Armlx argued that scum would defend each other if at all possible

Incorrect. Scum defend other scum where it is valuable to do so. However, when defending them would not decrease the likelyhood of their eminent death, it is not worth doing and bussing occurs.

[Mokina]

Incorrect. Scum defend other scum where it is valuable to do so. However, when defending them would not decrease the likelyhood of their eminent death, it is not worth doing and bussing occurs.

That makes more sense; sorry to misquote. EL responded to your point by mentioning that it's not possible to verify what a given set of scum will do. My concern about Darla still stands; she's being a bit narrow-minded in her assumptions and seems to be searching for evidence against EL. That might be part of her black/white dichotomy, so it's a null alignment tell. All the same, it doesn't help the town to think that way.

To answer your question, my own FoS was directed towards those who were picking up on prods but failing to post, meaning that they were actively avoiding discussion. They might have been lazy town or they might have been scum, but I had no qualms about trying to get as many people posting as possible. To that end, a pressure FoS is very effective (except on Lowell, who seems to be immune to it).

[armlx]

EL responded to your point by mentioning that it's not possible to verify what a given set of scum will do.

Which is not true. There are certain behaviors scum exhibit more then town, otherwise playing Mafia would be more or less random.

[Lowell]

For the first time ever I think TSN is town.

[Iron Man]

@TSN
My bad. Your correct. You were not the one who was jumping on donkey about aggression. I did a quick re-read of the past few pages and it turns out that it was armlx who thought donkey was agressive. My mistake.

In light of that, un-FoS TSN.

FoS armlx.

[Mokina]

FoS armlx.

Por que?

[Iron Man]

The same reasons why I was mistakenly FoS'ing TSN. Armlx was the one stating that donkey was agressive, not TSN.

[Eldritch Lord]

False characterization of other players is similar in my mind to the classic scum strawman, it makes townie-looking players easier to lynch.

Darla, I don't have much time, so here are some quick points that make me think you may be scum.
-Your surefire feeling about being NK'd (WIFOM though)
-Your jumping on Mokina after her hammer
-Your pushing other wagons without throwing your vote in their direction
-Your inability to let go of EL/TSN/Mokina, if you stopped to consider that I, or one of us, may be Town for a little while--you'd realize how dangerous this black/white thinking is to the Town, we can only afford so many mislynches like yesterday.
-Your two "F you" posts to the town when you get close to lynch--null tell, but still worth addressing.

Like I said, I don't have much time so I really must be going. Armlx, I will try to answer your questions tomorrow beyond saying that I disagree with your definition of WIFOM/Scum-tactics.

[armlx]

Armlx was the one stating that donkey was agressive, not TSN.

Relative to my town example of him, which I can not explain until said game is completed.

[donkeyz12212]

I wish I could reply lol but I think I know what your talking about. Whole different situation dude.

[armlx]

Whole different situation dude.

Hence the reason you are only in tier 2.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

For the first time ever I think TSN is town.

Ironically, I have never been scum in a game with you.

[Lowell]

For the first time ever I think TSN is town.

Ironically, I have never been scum in a game with you.

I never said I was good at the game.

[Iron Man]

Ok, way too much meta here.

[Mokina]

Ok, way too much meta here.

Meta is good, but it won't work on Lowell. He has an infuriating no-read thing going on in all his games, not just this one.