Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over

[lord_hur]

And that's why I asked twice for people to post who they found scummy, like I did. Both times I was ignored though ><

[Musher333]

Musher333 - No suspects listed. Musher - What would you go for at deadline.

I have already said in my last post, hasd is weakly suspicious due to hammering quickly, not commenting very often and sticking to band-wagons without offering his own opinions.

[Musher333]

Sorry for double post but-

Musher-scum would not be clever enough to do something like this

Non taken but thats getting sigged

[strife220]

Sorry Hur, I glanced at your post history and saw that you haven't changed votes or FOS'd for your last 63 posts. I should've picked up on the Hacker-mindedness though. You were certainly explicit there. Will fix it when I update my running tally.

[lord_hur]

Sorry for double post but-

Musher-scum would not be clever enough to do something like this

Non taken but thats getting sigged

Musher333, you're great. I would be SO pissed if you're scum

[strife220]

I'm hoping for a bigger stance than a "weak FOS." Are you willing to see someone lynched based on a weak FOS? If that's your strongest opinion by now, I'm alarmed. If you're town, I'd think you would have big suspicions of people on your own wagon. How is no-lynch sounding? What about Hacker? Hur? SpringLullaby? Stoofer? Is Hasdgfas really the only person you're suspicious of at all right now?

[undo]

This votecount will be text-only because I am currently using a computer which doesn't have image-editing software.

Votecount

Musher333 - 3 (Mr Stoofer, hasdgfas, HackerHuck)
HackerHuck - 2 (lord_hur, springlullaby)
hasdgfas - 1 (strife220)

Not voting

: Musher333, SeraphicMirth, Musher333

With 9 alive, it's

5 to lynch

Since the majority of players is for a deadline extension, and since nobody has shown to be against that, the deadline is extended to

June 21 at 8 PM GMT

(this new deadline is not extendable).

[Singing Librarian]

Following a re-read, the two that stand out as most likely potential scum are still, for me, musher333 and TVOD. However, TVOD's replacement does not seem anywhere near as scummy, and it is true that lynching the doctor, if that's what musher really is, is a terrible idea.

I can sort of see why people have expressed suspicion of Mr Stoofer from time to time, but can't pin it down. There's a vague sense of unease, but that's not enough to go on.

To reiterate why I find musher suspicious - it's not the claim, in any way. That leaves me neither hot nor cold. What worries me about him is the way that he seemed to twist what people were saying so often, by misunderstanding them in such a way that it made either them or someone else seem unnecessarily scummy. Not once or twice, but several times, which is what makes me think it's not a simple case of misunderstanding. We all misunderstand things, but that often?

So, we're back to

Vote: Musher333

If he really is the doctor then obviously that's a bad thing, but I truly cannot find anyone scummier-seeming than him.

[hasdgfas]

Since people seem to think I haven't said much of anything on the claim, here are my thoughts on the claim, which I think I mentioned previously:

It's a null tell. I could see musher-scum, or musher-doc making the same claim. (Keep in mind, people, that if he's scum he's most likely not alone and he and his buddy/buddies would have probably TALKED about fake-claims.)

I find him neither more scummy nor less scummy for the claim, but he is still the one who seems the most scummy to me. It has already been mentioned why, so I'll leave you all to read that elsewhere in the thread.

[lord_hur]

Following a re-read, the two that stand out as most likely potential scum are still, for me, musher333 and TVOD. However, TVOD's replacement does not seem anywhere near as scummy, and it is true that lynching the doctor, if that's what musher really is, is a terrible idea.

I can sort of see why people have expressed suspicion of Mr Stoofer from time to time, but can't pin it down. There's a vague sense of unease, but that's not enough to go on.

To reiterate why I find musher suspicious - it's not the claim, in any way. That leaves me neither hot nor cold. What worries me about him is the way that he seemed to twist what people were saying so often, by misunderstanding them in such a way that it made either them or someone else seem unnecessarily scummy. Not once or twice, but several times, which is what makes me think it's not a simple case of misunderstanding. We all misunderstand things, but that often?

So, we're back to

Vote: Musher333

If he really is the doctor then obviously that's a bad thing, but I truly cannot find anyone scummier-seeming than him.

Did you read other games from him ? Games in which he was confirmed town ? He is always like that.

[strife220]

While I agree in general that claiming Doc is a null-tell, I think that the chance of them actual being Doc should influence the decision as to whether or not a lynch is a good idea. For an extreme example, I'd rather lynch someone I was 50% sure of being scum who claimed Vanilla than someone who I was 51% sure of being scum who claimed Doc. The difference is the consequences have changed, and a living Doc is much more valuable than a living townie.

That is, even if you do consider a doc claim to be a null tell, it should not have a null effect on your vote choice. I find it strange that 4 of you voting Musher almost explicitly disagree. Nobody said they still think the chances of him being scum outweigh the consequences of lynching a pro-town powerrole. You all just said that the claim had zero effect on your stance.

That, + lots of other reasons I mention why I think Musher is a bad lynch, wah wah wah, it doesn't look like I'll get my way here. That's Musher at L-1.

The other 5 are myself, Hur, SpringLullaby, Seraphic, and Musher himself, all of which apparently disagree with the Musher-wagon. It seems like the only way to avoid the Musher-lynch is if we all agree together on no-lynch, or most likely, HackerHuck since he's the only other wagon going on right now. Hur and SpringLullaby are already voting Hacker, and Musher would obviously support any lynch that's not his own. I'm going to do a Huck re-read to see if I'd be up for his lynch, but I suspect I will be (over the alternative). SeraphicMirth, based on your previous statements, is seems you would also support Huck over Musher?

[HackerHuck]

To restate the case for not lynching Musher

He's definitely not played the last 10 pages exceptionally well. However:

He has claimed Doc. A good scum-claim no doubt, because lynching a claimed doc on D2 is a Bad Idea.

He has given good flavor (albeit in pieces), such as 'Physician' and 'Eats Fish.' Both of these bits of flavor fit in very well with the game, and the fact that they aren't countered almost proves he's town.

He played out the last 3 pages as if he had no idea that scum knew about townies having food. Supposedly he forgot that the townie PM was in the first post. Yet he was still able to state the townie win condition (eliminate menaces to the integrity of egypt). Either he was clever scum playing aloof, or he actually has that role PM. I'm VERY inclined to believe that Musher-scum would not be clever enough to do something like this (no offense musher), and thus I'm considering him to be essentially confirmed doc.

Were you not really paying attention closely? He never claimed fish - that was Stoofer. Musher's claim was pork. He also didn't claim the townie win condition exactly like it was posted. I don't see how physician and/or fish/pork are in any way good claims. Do you think that the scum don't have a food in their role PMs? And if you recall, Physician didn't come out right away but after his initial claim of doctor.

Lastly, you really need to consider the effectiveness of him as a doctor. If he survives today without being lynched, he's basically the same as someone who claimed townie. The scum are going to kill him tonight, so we won't get any benefit from his role.

[strife220]

Fish/Pork/Whatever, both are fine flavor. And Physician is perfect flavor. What else do you think the game's doc would be called?

He didn't claim the townie win condition exactly at first, but did it spot on upon further request. Same thing with stating 'physician.' He's just being sloppy and not checking his role-pm until more directly requested. Until the recent discussion of flavor, I certainly couldn't have said what my name, egyptian profession, and favorite food was.

[Mr Stoofer]

I'm speechless.

I'll post something when I recover.

[Mr Stoofer]

And Physician is perfect flavor. What else do you think the game's doc would be called?

I don't disagree with this sentiment. But if it is true, then how could Musher333 coming up with this be evidence of his innocence? Put another way: if he were Scum, what would he have claimed as his flavour? [And BTW, you can't say "he is too dumb to have come up with it" because if he Scum he has a buddy to help him with claims.]

And on the subject of fake-claims, don't you think "Pork" is the obvious thing for the Scum to claim that they eat?

I have read the "cross-examination" of Musher333 again, and I see the force of the argument that it shows him to be unbelievably stupid. So yes, I agree that he could be Very Very Very Dumb Town. He could also be Very Dumb Scum.

I have always taken the view that when you have someone who you know is either Scum or Very Very Very Dumb Town, you lynch them -- because either way they are going to be no help at the end of the game. (Ask yourself this, those who think Musher333 is town and want to keep him alive: If it comes to the endgame, with you, Musher333 and the last Scum alive, how much to you trust Musher333 to vote for the last Scum and not you?)

But Very Dumb =/= Town. Scum can be Dumb too. Do you think Musher333 would be playing a better game if he were Scum?

Furthermore, I don't particularly like either the hasdgfas or the HackHuck bandwagons. If someone wants to set out a detailed case on either of them, then I'll pay close attention, but at the moment I think that getting rid of Musher333 would be of the greatest benefit to the Town right now.

I will move my vote as necessary to ensure that we have a lynch at deadline. At the moment that means keeping it on Musher333.

[Mr Stoofer]

I have always taken the view that when you have someone who you know is either Scum or Very Very Very Dumb Town, you lynch them -- because either way they are going to be no help at the end of the game.

This statement sometime causes controversy, so just to prove that I

do

always say this, here is an example from the most recent completed game I played in as Town. I gave the following as a reason to lynch Battle Mage:

Battle Mage is a complete idiot, who is bound to distract and hurt the Town regardless of his alignment, and the sooner he is dead the better.

For further proof go to this thread and "View All Posts by Mr Stoofer".

[springlullaby]

I'm against Musher lynch and I already said why, even though he is getting on my nerves thoroughly.

I prefer Hackerhuck lynch, his contribution is on the minimum side and I typically don't like his votes, he does more commenting on the game while agreeing with one wagon or another, then coming up with case of his own.

I understand the suspicion on hasdgfas, though I'm less suspicious of him because there is nothing he said that dramatically ring my 'dar, but the problem is that he contribute even less than Hacker. I think it's an okay lynch.

Stoofer, I think of the people on the Musher wagon is the less likely to be scum. He just doesn't sound like scum. Though I'd like him to unvote Musher if he is town: I already explained that lynching Musher is a bad idea because he is confirmable either by nightkill or by successful protection. I'm not understanding the hardline on lynching Musher because with of the possiblity of no cardflip, letting Musher go to night is just so much better. I'm not liking the 'Dumb Town' argument either, because 'dumb town' is always better than no town, especially in case of possible doc. I'm probably not up to lynch him today.

Lord_Hur I find him fishy, but I think his reaction to the Musher claim is markedly protown. I tend to be willing to write him off as 'playstyle I just don't like'.

[springlullaby]

Stoofer, though I'm kinda sympathetic with the lynch BM the earlier the better sentiment :p, I'm not liking the way you dragged that meta in there. You saying 'I do this as town' doesn't mean you won't do same as scum.

Your vote has been on Musher for awhile now, please post a review of the other players and what you think of them.

[strife220]

Post 791 contains logic and reason.

HackerHuck reread still coming from me soon.

[SeraphicMirth]

ughhh ok, so I found a cafe near my apartment with wifi..and I'm glad I did, cuz I have a feeling I'd be overwhelmed if I checked in only on Thursday.

I struggle because I completely agree with Stoofer's POV, usually when it comes to plain town. I'm not sure yet if my mind changes when it comes to doc.

Lastly, you really need to consider the effectiveness of him as a doctor. If he survives today without being lynched, he's basically the same as someone who claimed townie. The scum are going to kill him tonight, so we won't get any benefit from his role.

Yes, but if we don't lynch Musher, we put the scum in a good position for us because they either have to kill Musher, which saves anyone else from being killed that night, or they have to kill someone else and we get a possible save from the doc still. If we lynch Musher and we're wrong, then we've erroneously lynched one with a second town death during the night.

SeraphicMirth, based on your previous statements, is seems you would also support Huck over Musher?

No. I don't have any gripe against Hacker at this point. I haven't been really paying attention to him but nothing strikes me as off in the normal reading. I also think your strategizing on how many people you could get to vote for HH is interesting. Any argument against him that I have seen so far is extremely weak, and definitely not enough to even really question him on anything. So, those that are for a Hacker lynch..what exactly is it against him and could you pose some questions that he could answer?

I dunno...I keep waffling on this but we're in a tough position here. Part of me knows there is evidence against Musher, I re-read him, and I was totally willing for his lynch before he claimed. The doc claim is just freaking me out and makes me question if the evidence gathered is enough. I dunno. Musher just doesn't settle right in my gut, though my brain is saying we should hold off. So, I'm torn.

I'd like to see more details as far as the argument against HH goes. I'll check back in on Wednesday probably, but if it's not compelling I think I should just hammer and we can just move on and hopefully get info out of this. I dunno.

[lord_hur]

Come on people, can't you come up with two or three names of people you'd be fine with getting lynched ? Scum must be really talented then, because I really doubt there are less than 2 scum still alive.

You're all just stating and restating (and restating) your position regarding Musher333 and putting the burden of scum hunting on others. When I say that, I'm looking at HackerHuck, hasdgfas, SL, SeraphicMirth, and Mr Stoofer. Damn it, that's more than half the players.

No wonder we can't get an alternative lynch option.

Now that SeraphicMirth has stated she will hammer on wednesday, scum just have to stall the game a bit more ><

[strife220]

Re-reading HackerHuck I don't see a very strong case. His first Vote on SlySly (only confirmed town) was a little off, but I can't find any big scumtells. LordHur and Hasdgfas are both better lynches for today - however LordHur would clearly rather vote Musher than himself, so that leaves me with just Hasdgfas.

SeraphicMirth, based on your previous statements, is seems you would also support Huck over Musher?

No. I don't have any gripe against Hacker at this point. I haven't been really paying attention to him but nothing strikes me as off in the normal reading. I also think your strategizing on how many people you could get to vote for HH is interesting. Any argument against him that I have seen so far is extremely weak, and definitely not enough to even really question him on anything. So, those that are for a Hacker lynch..what exactly is it against him and could you pose some questions that he could answer?

I think my reasons for this push have been made obvious. There are 9 players left. 4 of them are voting Musher. 5 of them don't want to vote Musher. I'm one of those 5. The only way a Musher lynch is going to be avoided is if we lynch someone else (or no-lynch). Right now the only competing bandwagon is HackerHuck, hence my 'strategizing.' If you think what I'm doing is scummy or anti-town, call me out, but don't imply I'm being unclear or conniving.


Between a Hacker lynch, a no-lynch, and a Musher lynch, I'm honestly a bit torn. The no-flip rule is quite frustrating, because on the surface it makes no-lynch seem like the right thing to do, given that no information is gained from a mislynch. I guess we have to assume that the game is properly balanced, and of course the only way to win is by lynching scum. I suppose my preference would be:
Hasdgfas > Hackerhuck > Musher > No lynch. I really hope people reconsider the lynch on Hasdgfas, based on a significant amount of lurker-ness, a bit of scumminess, and (perhaps most importantly) the lack of consequence if his alignment isn't revealed. Lynching lurkers isn't a great strategy in normal games, but becomes much better when the lynchees' alignment may not be revealed.


Musher - Why do you not have a vote out right now? I'm boggled by the fact that you're L-1 with people defending you, but you're not helping your own case. And this is not a rhetorical question - please answer it.

[HackerHuck]

I prefer Hackerhuck lynch, his contribution is on the minimum side and I typically don't like his votes, he does more commenting on the game while agreeing with one wagon or another, then coming up with case of his own.

I'd like to see an example of this. Actually, more than one example since that's what I supposedly do more of...

Lord_Hur - would you rather that I restate (and restate) my position on you and SpringLullaby? I've even recently mentioned that I would switch back to either of you if I cannot get the lynch on Musher.

Lastly, you really need to consider the effectiveness of him as a doctor. If he survives today without being lynched, he's basically the same as someone who claimed townie. The scum are going to kill him tonight, so we won't get any benefit from his role.

Yes, but if we don't lynch Musher, we put the scum in a good position for us because they either have to kill Musher, which saves anyone else from being killed that night, or they have to kill someone else and we get a possible save from the doc still. If we lynch Musher and we're wrong, then we've erroneously lynched one with a second town death during the night.

So if we're wrong about a random townie, we've erroneously lynched one and there will be a second townie death during the night. Really, the only difference is that we will either see Musher die tonight or we will see someone else die tonight. I'm still not sure how that makes it a bad idea to lynch Musher if you think he's scum.

[strife220]

So if we're wrong about a random townie, we've erroneously lynched one and there will be a second townie death during the night. Really, the only difference is that we will either see Musher die tonight or we will see someone else die tonight. I'm still not sure how that makes it a bad idea to lynch Musher if you think he's scum.

I know it's not directed towards me, but:
Your 'only difference' is based on the assumption that we lynch pro-town today. The argument is that we get a chance to catch scum. If you think pro-town Musher is going to die either way, then lynching him is a complete waste of a lynch.

[strife220]

EBWOP:
Above post sounded kind of disorganized, but I think my point is clear.

Huck says: If Musher is pro-town, he'll either die today or tonight so it doesn't make a difference.
I say: If Musher is pro-town and we lynch him, that's 2 townies guaranteed dead (Lynch + NK). If Musher is pro-town and we look for actual scum, then that's 1 townie guaranteed dead (NK) and a reasonably good shot of finding scum (lynch).