Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[Adel]

And I switched because it was clear to me the Cicero wagon wasn't going anywhere.

I'm unclear on how this was clear.

cicero/Simenon scumgroup +1

[Guardian]

Vote Count 4

Oman[4] (Erg0, vollkan, shaft.ed, Shanba)
cicero[2] (Adel, Oman)
Erg0[2] (cicero, Simenon)
Adel[1] (The Fonz)
vollkan[1] (Jitsu)
curiouskarmadog[1] (BillyTwilight)


Not Voting[1] (curiouskarmadog)

[Simenon]

And I switched because it was clear to me the Cicero wagon wasn't going anywhere.

I'm unclear on how this was clear.

The wagon didn't seem to be moving. Cicero posted something very dense and compact answering the points. More importantly, all the information that could be extracted from that wagon, except for a claim, was already there for the picking. Didn't seem worth it to continue. Fortunately, another, better wagon was waiting there. Also, while Cicero may still be scum, I don't think a wagon is going to be successful right now.

cicero/Simenon scumgroup +1

I would have ridden this wagon over Everest as soon as I spotted a weakness. And yes, that is a plug for my own scumtell, for future reference.

[Simenon]

1. Them's fighting words. How much longer are you going to imply that I'm scum while attacking someone else?

That statement seems to cut both ways. You say the cicero wagon started as a random joke wagon but "something changed" along the way. I would assume this means you became more suspicious of cicero. If that's the case why drop your vote, and why join the wagon he is pushing?

Read the reasons above. Also, cicero answered some of his points. I think it's better we shift our interest to another wagon for now. The whole point of this plan is to get as much information as possible, and that means pursuing the best wagon possible. Fifteen pages from now, we can all write our verbose analysis on the situation, but it's best to turn away from dead ends as soon as possible this stage of the game.

[vollkan]

People's logic here is interesting. By all means disagree with me about it being a weak town tell. Call it a null tell. But we were on the same basic wavelength. Nothing to vote Simenon over. Just as me saying it is a weak town tell is nothing to vote me over, Oman. Unfortunately because I was the player at issue with his chosen first bandwagon it demanded some sort of response from me. I'm not sure what the magic response was supposed to have been but the fact is I found him annoying and not scummy. The way he went about it felt like townie trying to be flippant playing silly bugger, and thereby promote conversation, which, yes, I feel is something more often engaged in by townies because anything can happen in the early game and most scum will tend towards self preservationism and try to stay out of the early controversies. Not all. Of course scum can WIFOM it. But that's the starting premise of the WIFOM. Scum will do this UNLESS they plan to confound expectations. Don't like my opinion, fine. But think Cicero would only hold that opinion as scum? You are quite incorrect as shall become apparent at some near or later point in the future.

Not true.

It depends on the individual. Some people will play scum by hiding in the shadows and hoping not to be noticed. Others will play hard and aggressive in order to "hide in the open". Arguing that scum will hide in the shadows only makes it more rational for scum to play hard and aggressive.

I like how you note that scum will hide in the shadows "UNLESS they plan to confound expectations", as though planning to confound expectations is somehow something that scum don't ordinarily do. Rational scum will seek to maximise their own survival and, as a result, will seek to confound expectations if they can do so.

This is a thought you are happening to have that lacks foundation.

It's just my opinion.

It's a weak town tell. Anyone else wants to say WIFOM null tell, fine, but you're missing the point. The point was that that action seemed like Simenon being a pest and I wasnt going to vote him for it. That didnt mean I was absolving him for the game or that I didnt think scum could do something townie. Scum do townie things all the time in every game. But so do townies. So I wait to see something scummy before I vote a person.

"It's just my opinion" sounds an awful lot like Gut in a Tuxedo.

man it seems cicero's defense to early bandwagoning is lots of words, which I'm going to have to read.

Please abridge for those of us on the go

[Oman]

My point here is that we were supposed to be bandwagoning you. But with your hard push on cicero in conjunction with Simenon's hard pushing, cicero became the predominant bandwagon.

Score

I'm at a loss as to why Shanba votes me and says Cicero's defence is unsatisfactory. Do you think that Cicero posts weak defence when town?

"It's just my opinion" sounds an awful lot like Gut in a Tuxedo.

I'm theiving this line. It rocks.

Please abridge for those of us on the go

BURN!

[The Fonz]

Considers jumping off bridge.

. But think Cicero would only hold that opinion as scum? You are quite incorrect as shall become apparent at some near or later point in the future.

As I'm sure you know, that isn't the only way things can be scummy.

Other players should be careful of this tendency of Simenon's as the game continues. There's an obvious tendency to stick his finger in the air and say "ah ah ah, I never SAID what can obviously inferred, so you are ASSUMING ha ha ha". This is a device designed to allow slippery wiggle room, the refuge of scum. Don't let him.

Early, weak bandwagons are good for the soul. Just because something doesn't have a great foundation, doesn't make it a joke. (In fact, had the wagon on you not gotten to a reasonable size sans moi, i'd have voted for you, since I had a premonition that you were scum in this game).

As for Oman, since the consensus is that he's making sense, let's be clear about what part makes sense and what doesn't. It is one thing to disagree that something is a town tell. It is quite another to vote me for believing that it is. Oman's itchy trigger finger on that point is what didnt make sense to me.

You have played with Oman before, right?

That's your reason. One of the most important thing one needs to be able to do as scum is make mislynches happen. Scum cant win on imprisonments alone. So one of the most important things to look at when someone is voting someone is "that thing they find scummy, is it really scummy? Or are they just being opportunistic". To me that's pretty basic. And that's what I meant with Oman.

Being opportunistic requires there to be a possibility of the wagon getting to lynch in the current form. Do you believe this, cicero?

There's nothing not right. I didnt do the "tell" on purpose. Feel free to disregard it. But Im letting you know, voting Cicero for saying he's town, is, well...stupid, if you've played with Cicero. Don't want to use that info, how can I stop you.

And yet, voting Oman for being wagony is dumb if you've played with Oman, but still..

And, Simenon, I wasnt "pretending" I was going to vote him. An intercessionary event - Adel's reasonless vote - occurred. I may vote him yet at a time of my choosing. At the moment he's at 3 votes which is enough until the joke votes come off him and there is evidence that all players are engaged.

Fair enough explanation.

As for the misrepresentation bit -

Is there not scum benefit in starting a wagon on someone like this under the premise of a joke?

Well if there is you should vote Simenon.

My problem is that I think "null tell" is just a cop out, here. In either direction the tell is weak.

Fine. Slightly town, as it happens, since scum have slightly more motive to fear looking wagon-y.

[The Fonz]

Oh crap, that was supposed to be the second half of that post. The first is here:

quietly notices Oman's shifting the wagon to cicero

Yes, this is interesting. On the one hand, pointing out Oman being wagony doesn't seem newsworthy. OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle. Hey Oman, how's that one going?

More to the point: you must have a fairly low opinion of Oman to believe that he'd be trying to shift a basically baseless wagon.

Unvote, vote: Shaft.ed

I disagree.

This is the sort of logic that drives lurker lynching - "Scum want to fly under the radar". .

AFAIK, the logic that drives lurker lynching is that it's easier to work out connections, etc, from posts than no posts. Therefore, it's in the town's interests to force people to post, using the sanction of lynch if necessary.

[vollkan]

AFAIK, the logic that drives lurker lynching is that it's easier to work out connections, etc, from posts than no posts. Therefore, it's in the town's interests to force people to post, using the sanction of lynch if necessary.

Well, no. There are two forms of lurker-lynching:

1) Lynching as a last resort because a person refuses to participate;
2) Lynching, in whole or in part, upon the basis that the person has been lurking/lurky and is, as a result, more likely to be scum.

The first is a legitimate solution where all else fails to deal with something atrociously anti-town (If lurking is legitimised, then nobody need post).

The latter makes the dubious assumption that scum are inherently more likely to lurk. The problem I have with that is that town can have a rational reason for lurking: power-role trying to be innocuous, aren't fully composed and don't want to make a screwed-up post, playing the observant judge, etc. And, as I have said, scum can have perfectly rational reasons to be of any degree of activity.

Basically, pushing lurking as suspicious is just conflating "anti-town" with "scummy". It shouldn't be tolerated as a matter of policy, but it shouldn't be warped into a scumtell either.

[The Fonz]

Decent town players should not act antitown. Therefore, there's far less difference between the two than is generally made out.

[Oman]

You have played with Oman before, right?

You taught me, in my first game to bandwagon early

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle. Hey Oman, how's that one going?

I found it to be extremely ineffective. Basically, it meant that I having trouble pressuring people, because nobody flips on one vote. Plus, ICing all the newbie games I do, its good to get it moving along.

Decent town players should not act antitown.

Decent players....But yeah, I get your point.

[Simenon]

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle.

Why?

[Jitsu]

jitsu, how many games have you played now?....

Sorry guys, I was tied up with work Thursday and Friday. I'll catch up and post tonight.

To answer CKD's question, I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I've only completed two games. I would have played more, but I survived to the end in both.

I took a few weeks off to deal with some work deadlines, and I was ready to start a third one, when someone told me to wait to sign up for my next game (apparently, because of the invitational).

After our win together in Underground Mafia, I played with Adel, Erg0, and Oman in Vollkan's Mafia in Vollville. I survived to endgame, and all three of us won as town.

I didn't want to mention it, because I think someone could (legitimately) gripe that they should have been chosen over someone that's only played two mafia games ever.

[The Fonz]

You get picked because people think you've got game. To gripe at that would be to diss your fans.

[shaft.ed]

I know Erg0 can be quiet early game, are Shanba and Billy generally like this?

[Adel]

You get picked because people think you've got game. To gripe at that would be to diss your fans.

he also has a 2-0 record as town, scummy nominations from almost a half dozen players, and modesty to boot.

He plays one game at a time and plays it well. He doesn't spam up game threads, he doesn't type for the sake of getting words on the screen, and he doesn't lurk. He is a model mafia player and most of us can probably learn from him.

I am currently alive in three games (including this one), modding one, and back-up modding (for Guardian who will be on vacation) a second game.

I will have no excuse for not being alert and attentive in this game. I used to play in at least six games at a time, and my ability to win certainly suffered.

[The Fonz]

With the one just ended, I'm currently in nine.

Hoping to be down to four or so within the month, but there's just too many good games I can't say no to.

[shaft.ed]

I'll also whine about having gotten myself into more games then I'd like to be. Playing 5 and mod'ing 1. I prefer 2-3 at a time.

And Jitsu, you have as many wins as town as I do but with 3 less tries.


In regards to the game. Adel you seem quite calm, is this a new thing for you?

[Adel]

nope.

have we decided to let shamba, BT and Erg0 to slip quietly through this phase fo the game?

I don't buy the abandonment of the cicero wagon. We could've taken it a lot farther.

The two quiet players on the Oman wagon alarm me, but

Oh and Adel: Noted I got it, I think.

alarms me a little more. I don't like that he is alone on the cicero wagon with me right now.

@Oman: what exactly do you think it is that you got from that?

[Oman]

OTOH, I seem to recall that Oman was working to eliminate that from his playstyle.

Why?

I disliked the predicability of my actions

I didn't want to mention it, because I think someone could (legitimately) gripe that they should have been chosen over someone that's only played two mafia games ever.

FTR: I nominated you, and I know that someone else did as well. Quality > Quantity.

@Oman: what exactly do you think it is that you got from that?

Actually, I thought you were trying to breadcrumb something (a la the Hopkins 62 thing) I googled it and found some stuff that could be breadcrumbing. I've decided not to be specific right now, because on the volitile nature of breadcrumbs.

That being said: I don't see how any Grateful Dead song would fit in with our current situation, so it seemed quite out of place to me.

[The Fonz]

Billy just posted in the large normal I was in with him, which just finished.

[Oman]

Mod

can you just remind Billy, I know I often forget to watch the topic.

[Guardian]

I am going on V/LA as promised. PM-ing mith now to ask him to take over mod duties. Take care!

[Erg0]

Yeah, I owe this game a post. And here it is.

shaft.ed: why do you say that we were supposed to be wagonning Oman? Sure, he had a few votes - but at least two of them were based on nothing much at all, so I doubt he was panicking and looking to redirect the wagon to cicero (at least, not for that reason).

The only thing that came to mind when I saw the Grateful Dead was that Adel was breadcrumbing Jester. Seems pretty unlikely, though.

What this game really needs is for somebody to do something stupid. That usually gets things rolling.

[shaft.ed]

shaft.ed: why do you say that we were supposed to be wagonning Oman? Sure, he had a few votes - but at least two of them were based on nothing much at all, so I doubt he was panicking and looking to redirect the wagon to cicero (at least, not for that reason).

That was a joke Erg0.