Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Skruffs]

Well, it's possible that ALL of the items were received are in fact ploys by evil scum to distract us. If you guys are really sure that we are in lynch or lose, maybe a full disclosure, at least by those who got items, would be pertinent. It makes it harder for scum to figure out who the item givers are, SINE they could be giving items to each other. POtentially, one item giver is scum, too, though that seems unlikely. Or everything could be a placebo.

[Ether]

8 Unvote (Andycyca, eldarad, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Skruffs, Tiger Twins, Y, Yosarian2)

8 alive; 5 to lynch.

Deadline's soon.

[Yosarian2]

But you were defending him because you thought he was cleared. And instead of pushing htat, you were trying to find out who gave it to you, instead??

No. I didn't want to find out who it came from, I just wasn't sure of where it came from and, therefore, how much I could trust it.

This was my issue - it was an all-or-nothing thing. I either came out and watch the sky come down around our ears and hope it would turn out alright, or I could keep quiet and just make it obvious that I didn't like the RS wagon.
I chose the second option.

You made it clear you didn't like the RS wagon, but you never really argued against it very hard. If anything, it looked like you just wanted to go down on record against it so you'd look better after he was lynched; you never acted like you were really trying to stop it in any way.

[eldarad]

That is crap. Why would you claim cop or one-shot cop when all that happened was you received an item to give you an investigation?

Well OK. But all I knew

at the time

was that I had been given a one-shot investigation - although as I say, I didn't even know what it was I was investigating - the significance of receiving an item, as opposed to being given an ability or whatever, didn't occur to me.

We still don't really know whether there is an item giver or just the mod allocating items to players.

If you got an item at night, something which presumably would have *nothing at all* do to with your role, and you target Rotten Snitch, and learn that he is not werewolf, and then much more likely to be town, then *you claim that*.

Hmm. Except without knowing where the item came from I could end up wrongly clearing RS. Then, I wouldn't be preventing a mislynch - I'd be preventing a lynch.

This whole item thing seems like whenever you get information from an item there is no drawback to claiming it.

That certainly appears to be the case now. I had no idea if that was the case Yesterday. It's only the combination of the statistic (

five

players had supplies at the start of the Night), Mizzy's one-shot watcher item and Skruffs' wolfsbane that allows us to make that assessment.

If you had claimed this yesterday/(two days ago) you likely could have prevented RS from being lynched -- a player that was pretty confirmed town to you. Why would you not do that? What, at all, was the drawback?

I already mentioned the drawback - preventing RS from being lynched if it turns out RS was some kind of non-werewolf scum means we avoid lynching a scum. It could also end up leading to my lynch, particuarly if it turned out I was the only person who had an 'item' that I had used to clear a scum.

You chose the second option which had already been proved BY ME that it wouldn't work? Sure, I didn't have an item backing me up and all I had was some town tells and instinct about Capri, but I did the same thing you tried and it didn't work. You should have known better.

Ouch. Point taken.

You made it clear you didn't like the RS wagon, but you never really argued against it very hard. If anything, it looked like you just wanted to go down on record against it so you'd look better after he was lynched; you never acted like you were really trying to stop it in any way.

I didn't argue against your

case

as I had no involvement in it. But you, and others, certainly thought I was heavily defending RS Yesterday.
RS seemed to pick up on it, and no-one else forced the issue, so I thought I was being effective.

[Skruffs]

If ether was giving out items, there would *have* to be a system that she would use to allocate them. Ether likes rules like that. She would absolutely not bastard mod by picking and choosing who she wanted to reward. Even if it was using random.org, she would keep the choice of who received what out of her own hands.

I Assumed that someone gave me the wolfsbane intentionally, because I had made such a point of going after Zindaras, that they wanted me to either clear him (mostly) or kill him, either of which would have got me to stop talking about it. That striked me as one of two options:

A) They knew Zindaras would be immune if they are scum
or
B) They are town and thought I would be likely to target Zindaras (if I was town), and thus are putting forethought into their actions,
or
C) It was random.org'd, which doesn't really make sense unless the mod was doing it.

It's not important to know who has an item and hasn't use it yet. But I think that to avoid a situation like RS's lynch yesterday, we should all claim today.

Fos: Eldarad

until further notice.

What if the last two nights haven't had any kills because the mafia are relying on items to do night actions, too? IF that's the case, then if someone gave out wolfsbane or the equivalent night 0, they might want to claim.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Except without knowing where the item came from I could end up wrongly clearing RS. Then, I wouldn't be preventing a mislynch - I'd be preventing a lynch.

Well, so what you do is there, you share your information with the town but mention that you're not sure of your sanity. Let the town figure out what to do with it. Especally since it didn't at all reveal your role, and thus wouldn't have at all helped the scum, it would have only been more information for the town.

I didn't argue against your

case

as I had no involvement in it. But you, and others, certainly thought I was heavily defending RS Yesterday. RS seemed to pick up on it, and no-one else forced the issue, so I thought I was being effective.

Actually, I thought the same thing yesterday:

It dosn't look like you're trying to find scum, or trying to help the town; it looks like you're trying to stay out of trouble. Which is the one thing that worries me about the RS wagon, actually; I'm really wondering if you're just avoiding it because you're scum who already knows RS is town.

It didn't look like you were trying to strongly defend RS yesterday; you said you thought he was town, but didn't really give any reasons why. If you had reason to think he was town but didn't want to share it for whatever reason, the correct move would have been to strongly defend him (that is, actually make arguments that might convince others of his townieness and of the weakness in the case against him), AND to also try to start a better wagon on someone else. The fact that you did neither of those two things really made me worry yesterady that you didn't really care either way if RS got lynched, you just didn't want to get in trouble for it.

And, by the way, what do you mean "no one forced the issue"? I kept trying to get you to explain why you thought RS was town, and to get you to say who you thought we should lynch if not RS; I even pointed out that I was willing to vote you over the issue. How much more "force" should we have used?

[eldarad]

Just posting to say my access isn't quite as limited as I feared. See sig for details.

[Tiger Twins]

Just posting to say my access isn't quite as limited as I feared. See sig for details.

Dude, you are in ROME.

I find you suspicious in this game, but that can mostly wait for a week, post once a day at night at most, or something.

Do touristy stuff! See the art, see the Vatican.

How often do you get to be in ROME???

I pseudo made a mistake of checking mafiascum too often while hiking in northern Spain.

Post on mafiscum when you're at home and bored. Wow, dude, enjoy Rome!!

~Guardian

[Skruffs]

The deadline is coming up, isn't it.

Let's get cracking.

I need to check eldarad's claim that there were 5 items unused at the beginning of the night last night. That would mean that 2 items n0, n1, n2 = 6 items and only his item had been used, correct?

[Yosarian2]

When did Eldred claim that, Skruffs? Did I miss something?

[eldarad]

Hey guys. Just been to the Spanish Steps.

The deadline is coming up, isn't it.

Let's get cracking.

I need to check eldarad's claim that there were 5 items unused at the beginning of the night last night. That would mean that 2 items n0, n1, n2 = 6 items and only his item had been used, correct?

That assumes that there are 2 items given out every Night. Since we don't know whether RS or Capri or Strappado or <the other person who was night-killed who I have forgotten> had items, there's no realistic way of checking.

Besides, I can tell you right now just from memory that Mizzy claims to have used an item on cow 2 nights ago. So that's that theory out the window right off the bat.

I don't really see how you're going to check my claim (Yos, I did say there were 5 people with supplies at the start of the Night - that was the result from using the Statistic) unless everyone who had an item - which assumes that only items are 'supplies' - comes forward.

I'm not convinced that's the best way forward.

[Skruffs]

But that would be AWFULLY convenient for scum if that happened.

[Mizzy]

We also don't know if that result counted Eld's item or not so we might really be looking for 4, not 5. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep.

[Yosarian2]

This is interesting stuff, about the items, but I've got to say that without knowing how the items were distrubted, I don't think that any items Eldared may or may not have had really tells us anything about his alignment.

[Andycyca]

The items are confusing me. I'm recalling everything in this thread about items.

[Yosarian2]

Out of these 4:
(Eldred, Andy, hadgsfas, and Y)
I'm almost competly certain that 3 of the 4 are scum. No one's managed to create any kind of logical case against either Skruffs or Guardian/Zindy at all, and no one's managed to create any kind of logical scumgroup that includes Mizzy but does not include me (and obv I know that theory is false, heh), so I'm pretty sure all the scum left have to be in that group of people.

I'm pretty sure today we lynch either Andy or Eldred. Something about Eldreds latest claims is giving me pause, although I can't explain it logically; his claimed behavior dosn't make any sense as town, and there's no reason to think that scum can't get items, but...I donno, something feels off here, and it's bugging the heck out of me.

Andy, what do you think about everyone? If you're not scum, then who do you suggest the scum group is, and why? Also, could you explain why you were willing to follow Eldred against Mizzy earlier this game, and could you explain why you've contributed so little content for most of this game?

Eldred, could you explain again why you thought it was a good idea for a person with a 1 shot cop item who had gotten an innocent on the person we were about to lynch to not claim that? You had said even before that day that you thought RS was town; if you thought he was town, and knew he was going to be wagoned, why would you investigate him if you weren't willing to confirm him as pro-town if neccessary? Could you explain your thought process for any of that?

[Tiger Twins]

eldarad, if not you, who are we supposed to be lynching, and why?

Mizzy? Because she made the same mistake that others made day 1 and didn't complain about it (since she was now in the group that made the mistake)?

I'm conflicted right now. I want to lynch eldarad, but that's very off from my read coming in the game. Zindaras sent me a PM asking to double head because he thought he had some decent ideas about who the scum are. Once Ether OK'd the double head, I PM'd back with a PM that was basically like "oh? who?" and he hasn't picked it up yet.

I don't facny going to the 'you must post every day' deadline phase though.

.

~Guardian

[Skruffs]

We also don't know if that result counted Eld's item or not so we might really be looking for 4, not 5. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep.

It shouldn't have counted the item he received because he received that item after the night began, which was the point that his item claims to have came into affect. So technically his 'censor' was about all the items in play at lynch.

[eldarad]

Yos, TT: I'll leave your questions until I get back home. (About 48 hours)
Although maybe you can clarify what you mean by this. Maybe it will make sense once I've woken up, but at the moment I don't understand the question:

Mizzy? Because she made the same mistake that others made day 1 and didn't complain about it (since she was now in the group that made the mistake)?

~~~

We also don't know if that result counted Eld's item or not so we might really be looking for 4, not 5. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep.

It shouldn't have counted the item he received because he received that item after the night began, which was the point that his item claims to have came into affect. So technically his 'censor' was about all the items in play at lynch.

This is a good point. That suggests that there were 6 people including me who had supplies/items to use last Night, plus anyone else who also got an item during or at the start of last Night. That's a lot when there are only 8 people alive...

[Andycyca]

Andy, what do you think about everyone? If you're not scum, then who do you suggest the scum group is, and why? Also, could you explain why you were willing to follow Eldred against Mizzy earlier this game, and could you explain why you've contributed so little content for most of this game?

I think the second question answers the first

My recent Eldarad-only reads have ended up in nothing. Save for some stupid attacks (which have already been addressed) I can't find particularly scummy. Links? Mizzy perhaps? They've had several rounds of arguing without too much input for the rest of town.

TBH I haven't properly read hascow or Y-only thread. Gut tells me they're scum, which would define the scum set right now as:

{hascow, Y, (Eldarad∨Mizzy)}

------------------

I recall voting to lynch Mizzy earlier in the game (back in D1) is that what you meant? I can answer you, but right now I don't remember any other moment when I've agreed with eldarad against Mizzy (not that it hasn't occurred, I don't recall quite well right now)

As for contribution, my only excuse is RL (I know, completely my fault) if you look in all the games I'm in, they all suffer of this and I can't do anything but to give you my sincerest apologies. If I haven't asked for replacement is because I know I must keep my commitments no matter what... but look on the bright side: I've been admitted for Engineering in Ambiental Technology! (I know, non sequitur)

[Y]

Andy, are you Mexican?

Anyways, it seems weird to me that once Yos points out the fact that he and Mizzy are always together either in or out of scum groups, Andy comes up with a different scum setup.

I tend to agree with Yos' thinking, the problem is that the four people I got are a different set than his.

[Tiger Twins]

I want a lynch soon.

Assuming 3 mafiosi, every single town player needs to post to avoid the no lynch thing, if the mafia choose to lurk. I know that I'll probably lose internet access for a day, or forget, so I really don't want to rely on the deadline shenanigans.

Sigh.

vote: eldarad

[Skruffs]

This is a good point. That suggests that there were 6 people including me who had supplies/items to use last Night, plus anyone else who also got an item during or at the start of last Night. That's a lot when there are only 8 people alive...

No.. I think it suggests that before you received your item (And I received mine) that there were 5 items in play. Theoretically, that means there are still 5 items in play, unless other people used theirs.

IF someone got a one-shot RBer and used it they might want to claim.

[Mizzy]

I would prefer an Andylynch over an Eldaradlynch, mostly because I think that might be OMGUS on Eld's part and I don't want to vote someone based on OMGUS, even if there are a good case of points against him.

[Yosarian2]

So, we go into "deadline" mode after 11:00 PM tonight, is that correct? We're definatly going to need EVERYONE to post tonight after 11:00 PM or tommorow, no matter what, for the reasons Guardian already explained.

Andy: You're right, guess I must have had had you confused with someone else there or something. My mistake.

The biggest problem I had with your play,Andy, was some wierdness reguarding Eldred. First you defend Eldred:

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

Note he never says exactally why he disagrees with me, why he thinks that my reasons aren't "valid". He then delayed saying anything else about Eldred, until I asked him about the "reread", he just said:

@yos: I'm doing it right now

Note that the first post happened on April 11'th, and the second post didn't happen until May 1st. Which makes it look like he didn't re-read Eldred when he said he would, and I suspect wasn't really planning on it until I pushed the issue.

And then he never mentioned anything about this re-read again, although he claims in a recent post that he did do it.

Whole thing looks like a scum connection to me. Care to comment, Andy?