Mini 607 - Cop Central [GAME OVER!]

[Farkshinsoup]

Hi all.

Vote: Clammy

Because he's the first on the list.

[Farkshinsoup]

Here's the wiki entry on cops, it explains all of the permutations we have in this game if you don't know them:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cops

We should not massclaim on Day 1, in my opinion.

Only 4 of the 8 cops (sane, and insane) will have useful investigations for us, but only once they figure out which ones they are. Mass claims at this point would only give more information to the scum than to town about which ones of us to kill. And at this point none of us will even know enough for our N0 investigations to mean anything to us anyways.

The way I see it, right now, the most anyone can know about their own status is that they are NOT 1 of the 4 possible cop variants. That is, unless your N0 investigation was Jenter, in which case you might be able to narrow it down even more.

So we should just start scum-hunting.

[Farkshinsoup]

Whoa there, skruffs.

You bring up some good points that I didn't consider, but I'm still not convinced. We should all discuss and decide as a group whether we want to mass claim. Until then, I won't be saying who I investigated or what my result was.

I don't think we should go off half cocked before we have a chance to discuss it. Most people haven't even checked in yet.

Now I've only played in a newbie game on MS, so maybe there's some angles that I'm not seeing. In that game, mass claiming was not a good idea.

Even if we don't mass claim, we can still find scum the old fashioned way, and we can still mass claim later on in the game, possibly to better effect.

[Farkshinsoup]

The sane cop who doesn't reveal his result and gets nightkilled can never reveal his result. Plus, when a scum has been targetted he will not know if it is by naive or insane cops if there's an innocent, or sane or paranoid cops if there's a guilty.

Actually, this is a good point.

If the majority of players think the mass-claim is a good idea, I'll go along with it.

[Farkshinsoup]

Therefore, scum earn no information at all about a cop's usefulness by knowing the result he got on them - if he got an innocent, there's a 50% chance he's useful (insane) and 50% that's he's worthless (naive), and if he got a guilty he's 50% sane, 50% paranoid. So mass claiming gives the town extra info, while the scum get nothing.

Maybe not on D1. But as the game goes on, town and scum alike will be able to make some increasingly educated guesses about who is a useful cop and who isn't - and scum will NK accordingly. And while we may still be trying to figure out whether we can 100% trust someone's investigations, that person may be killed before he can investigate scum and give us a useful result.

Hopefully, the information trail left behind by the fake claims will compensate for that advantage. But this also concerns me. Since no one's cop status is revealed when they die, it may be LYLO (or after) before we are able to piece together every player's cop status. It's only then that we would be able to verify the scums fake claims. And clever scum will certainly be coordinating at night to make sure that at least one of them comes off looking like a useful cop.

Let's be clear: I assume that every morning from here on in, we will be revealing our investigation targets and their results.

Let's say that we don't mass claim. Doesn't that give an investigative advantage to the 4 useful cops that are still out there? They may independently be able to figure out their usefulness. And they may be able to stay alive longer and do more investigations, which could be very useful in the endgame.

I guess I'm wondering if that advantage is more useful to us than the ability to trace back through the fakeclaims and to know previous investigations of dead players.

Still thinking. And I will still be waiting until everyone checks in to reveal my target and result. That having been said, I seem to be the only one with any doubts about this so far.

And I'm flattered that so many people investigated me.

[Farkshinsoup]

Since now is day one, why did you not reveal your investigation yet? You can argue with everyone about the rest of the game later.

I think you misunderstood me. When I said, "Maybe on Day 1" I was responding to your statement:

So mass claiming gives the town extra info, while the scum get nothing.

Once we mass claim, that info is out there, for both town and scum. No take backs. It just seems like we should discuss the pros and cons before we do it. The thread hasn't even been open for 24 hours yet, and not everyone has checked in. Why the hurry?

Now, again, this is my first time playing the Dethy^2 set-up. Maybe it's accepted wisdom that a mass claim is the way to go. If so, I'll gladly join in. And I'll be happy to claim both target and result first once everyone has checked in. But not before that.

[Farkshinsoup]

Since you seemed to agree that claiming on day one has no cons (we can still decide whether or not to revael additional investigations later), why didn't you?

I still don't think you understand me. Let me try again.

Any information that comes out on Day 1 will not be useful to scum

YET

. But just like it will be useful to us as we lynch and get NK'd, it will also be useful to scum, who will clearly be trying to find the 4 useful cops and NK them, or get them mislynched.

So clearly, I do think there is a con to mass claiming Day 1, and that is why I am discussing my concerns and waiting to hear from all players.

[Farkshinsoup]

Ah, ok, I see what you mean now. I was working from the assumption that we would be obligated to share our results every morning from here on in. My bad.

Ok, I'm convinced. I still reserve the right to hold back my investigations on subsequent mornings.

I investigated Jenter Brolincani.

[Farkshinsoup]

THE last people to claim targets should be the first people to claim results. That's my opinion.

QFT

[Farkshinsoup]

I've never played with anyone here, so I just picked my N0 investigation randomly. To be honest, his name just stuck out to me. Obviously no way to convince you of that, but there it is.

As it stands right now, I've only been able to narrow my sanity down to 2 of the 4 (one useful, one not).

[Farkshinsoup]

In my opinion, we should'nt continue voting and discussion 'till everyone's finished claiming. I don't like how the claim's lagging, it gives the scum too much extra info and time to think.

QFT

[Farkshinsoup]

Tek -> Fark | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
drool -> Skruffs | ???
clammy -> Tekk | ???
Korlash -> Tekk | ???
TDC -> Zeek | ???
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | ???
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty

Still needing to claim targets:
queen_of_spades

My investigation of Jenter came up guilty.

[Farkshinsoup]

Actually, does it make sense to lynch the player with the most results on them or the player with the least amount of results on them?
Tekk and Fark both have 2 results each on them, and there are quite a few players (me included) who have none. Since we can only find out our own alignments by comparing the results we get on players versus what other players get, does it make sense to maximize the number of results that can be compared versus the number of results on players total? by consolidating results on fewer players we increase the amount of mundanity.

Well, that depends on what you think gains us more - either having more basis for comparing (remember that scum will try to mislead us), or having some of the players know whether their results were true or false and thus figure out their sanity faster. Because this is a miny, I tend to lean towards the sencond option, but this definitely warrants more thought.

I think that we should lynch the scummiest player. That having been said, since we have a 3 week deadline, if we can't come to some consensus about who that is, then I think it would make sense to lynch either myself or Tekk. I'll vote for myself if it comes to that. If we're going to mislynch, it might as well be someone who can provide information to as many potential cops as possible.

But let's not take our eyes off the prize. If we can find scum on Day 1, we should lynch them.

Now, I think that lurking is our biggest enemy in a game with a deadline right off the top. So:

Unvote
Vote: Queen_of_Spades

We're all waiting on you.

MOD: Can we get a vote count?

[Farkshinsoup]

Well, that depends on what you think gains us more - either having more basis for comparing (remember that scum will try to mislead us), or having some of the players know whether their results were true or false and thus figure out their sanity faster. Because this is a miny, I tend to lean towards the sencond option, but this definitely warrants more thought.

If we are going to lynch based on that, would it be better to lynch Tekk because we have one person with an innocent and another with a guilty on him?

I think that it would be a mistake to read too much into guilty or innocent results on Day 1. There are too many variables. There are 3 people who will be lying about their investigations and their results, and the rest of us have no way to know if any of our results are reliable.

We should also think about coming up with assigned investigation targets for N1. If by the time we hit twilight, every player has an assigned person that they have to investigate, it gives less leeway for the scum to coordinate their false investigations after sundown. It also will maximize the information that we get from investigations.

We could first come up with a list of targets, including multiple investigations if we see fit, and then some random way of assigning the targets to players.

What does town think of this idea?

[Farkshinsoup]

I don't see how that's a good idea because:

a) Scum will most likely manipulate the "list" to their benefit (oh hey, everyone ends up investigating other townies, how convenient!)

I think that you are giving them a little too much credit. They will be risking revealing themselves if they push too hard for some or not for others. Also, we will still get information even if we only somehow investigate all townies. (which I think would be unlikely)

b) We aren't necessarily revealing our investigations tomorrow

Can't argue with this point. I guess we would have to decide now whether we will do this on Day 2. If not, then yeah, there's not much point in assigning investigations.

c) If the scum know who is investigating who before the night, they will be able to kill someone that might have a useful investigation target

This is true, but remember, at this point we have 4 cops in the game who can give us useful results. Even if they NK someone who is investigating one of them (they might not), and even if they get lucky and NK one of our 4 useful cops (the one investigating them could turn out to be paranoid or naive), we would still have 3 more useful cops left in the game(assuming we don't mislynch one today).

[Farkshinsoup]

LONG POST ALERT:

Lots to respond to. I'm going to start with Aimless. Let's have a look at this case you have against me.

We should not massclaim on Day 1, in my opinion.

As has been pointed out numerous times, this is an anti-town suggestion.

It may have been pointed out, but it hasn't been proven. I'd like you to prove to me how this is an anti-town suggestion.

Fark's excuse, for having made it, is that this is his second game - and yet, that belies his motive. Had he truly been unsure, he would have stayed silent. (This isn't enough, by itself; but, in conjunction with the rest it seems in retrospect clear to me.)

Huh? You're going to have to explain this one again. If I had really had doubts I would have kept them to myself? Under that logic, whenever a townie saw something that didn't sit right with him, he'd keep his mouth shut. How is that good for the town?

Whoa there, skruffs.

You bring up some good points that I didn't consider, but I'm still not convinced. We should all discuss and decide as a group whether we want to mass claim. Until then, I won't be saying who I investigated or what my result was.

A half hearted defense of his position, when called on his earlier mistake.

It was not a mistake, it was an alternate opinion. For the record, I don't regret any of those posts I made, and I'm puzzled by why you want to stifle discussion. That, to me, seems anti-town.

If the majority of players think the mass-claim is a good idea, I'll go along with it.

In the very next post, made immediately thereafter, he retracts even his first feeble defense, with the excuse "I'll go along with the majority."

This is the statement that first convinced me he was scum; to my eye this is a very glaring attempt to duck the attention he had garnered.

At this point, most of the other players had accepted the mass claim idea. No one wanted to discuss it. It seemed pointless to keep at it.

Furthermore, basically every time I've ever seen anyone use this defense in my past games, they've been scum.

I love this argument. So I'm scum for expressing a different opinion, and then I'm scum for dropping it as a course of action after we've discussed it. You're right, if I was town, I would have never let it drop.

Let's say that we don't mass claim. Doesn't that give an investigative advantage to the 4 useful cops that are still out there? They may independently be able to figure out their usefulness. And they may be able to stay alive longer and do more investigations, which could be very useful in the endgame.

Fark continues in his attempts to prevent cops from posting their investigations. Actually, his entire post was scummy as heck; for brevity's sake I quoted on the most relevant part. At any way, the logic that he uses here isn't the way a townie thinks.

I'm sorry, you do not have a lock on how a townie thinks. It is possible that I can be town, and think differently from you and the rest of the players. Bad argument.

The only way that a cop will know he's useful in this game is if he gets a result that differs from a previous result. The second he does so, he will know he has found scum (either his current target, or all of his past targets). To hide this information is inexcusable, and yet Fark suggests that this is exactly what said useful cop does.

Look, in many mafia games, keeping the power roles hidden is a GOOD IDEA! Why? Because scum will kill those power roles once they know them. I don't think that it's so crazy for me to think that keeping their identities a secret might be a good idea. "Inexcusable"? I don't think so.

Further, we have 4 useful cops, and three scum. If we trade them one for one, we win.

Oh great. I had no idea it would be so easy!:roll:

I investigated Jenter Brolincani.

Claiming he investigated the dead guy, after he's finally given in and accepted the need to claim.

Again, no way I can convince anyone about this choice, but seeing as I was already drawing some suspicion, if I was scum, why would I choose Jenter? I wouldn't. I would do what all the other scum have clearly done and NOT choose him.

But let's not take our eyes off the prize. If we can find scum on Day 1, we should lynch them.

Now, I think that lurking is our biggest enemy in a game with a deadline right off the top. So:

Unvote
Vote: Queen_of_Spades

Contradicting himself in the space of two sentences (find scum vs. lynch the lurker), and immediately jumps on QoS; the first person to do so by my count.

As I've said before, lurkers/useless players make great distractions for scum to hide from the heat.

I'm sorry, where did I say that I wanted to lynch QoS? I want to lynch the scum. I don't know if QoS is scum. How could I? She's barely posted anything.

You see, there's this thing called a "pressure vote". You may have heard of it. It is different from a lynch vote.

And I'm sorry, but lurkers are very bad news in a game with a deadline. Now I am getting scum vibes from some players, and my vote may end up changing, but I'm happy with it where it is right now.

However, I think Fark is the better lynch of the two, for the reason stated above: he was targeted twice, and so we get more info.

This is a good one. "Even if you think he's town, let's lynch him anyways. We'll get more info." As I've said previously, I agree that all things being equal, Tekk or myself would be a good lynch. But I'm disturbed that some players don't even want to bother scum hunting, and want to go right there.

I guarantee that scum will go along with that idea on Day1.

Aimless, your arguments against me are pretty weak. Here's my assessment of you. You are town, I think. You are a follower.

The very first post of the game, i put down a random vote. I can honestly say that mass claiming hadn't entered my mind. You had the second post of the game. Did you come in and suggest a mass claim? Nope, you followed my lead and random voted TDC.

TDC has the 3rd post, and he suggested the mass claim. I thought it was a bad idea, and said so. I was eventually convinced. I wasn't worried about what town would think of me, I thought it was more important that we start talking about our options and reach a consensus.

In your very next post, you say:

Of course we should mass claim. The more information the town has, the better off we are, and if we know everyone's results, we can begin a process of elimination to find scum.

Suggesting anything else is rather scummy

If this is a rule written in stone, how come you did not suggest it in your first post? Clearly, because either you didn't think of it, or you did, but did not want to lead the way, and kept your mouth shut.

Considering that you are a follower, it makes sense that you would think that I am scum.

What is most dangerous is that you are seriously underestimating the scum. I think they are a lot smarter than you are giving them credit for. Keep looking.

And a big old

FoS at drool

for that weak bandwagon vote. That seems scummy to me.

[Farkshinsoup]

Fark, however, comes off very scummy to me. I'm not particularly familiar with the game, but he seems to be someone who is scum. This may be a result of being new to the game of Mafia, but Fark appears to be scummy.

Is there an actual argument in there anywhere? You know, it doesn't become true if you just keep repeating it over and over.

[Farkshinsoup]

Look, in many mafia games, keeping the power roles hidden is a GOOD IDEA! Why? Because scum will kill those power roles once they know them. I don't think that it's so crazy for me to think that keeping their identities a secret might be a good idea. "Inexcusable"? I don't think so.

But this happens to be an open set up, where having all results in the open is

the only thing the enables power roles to know they're power roles

. What use are 4 good cops if none of them are even sure their results have any value?

Here I am not arguing the point about whether we should have mass claimed. I'm arguing that it is not unreasonable or scummy for me to have suggested it.

And you are implying that if we had not mass claimed, it would have been impossible for anyone to figure out their roles on their own. Clearly, they would have. Now yes, they would have to then contend with convincing everyone that they are who they say they are, but it's not like they never would have figured it out.

It makes sense for your vote on qos to be a pressure vote, but other than that your defense contains mostly appeals to emotion and does little to convince me of your innocence. The "Aimless is a follower" assessment is weak at best.

Please quote examples of how my whole argument is "mostly appeals to emotion." I'd like a chance to refute that.

Now, a little timeline:

1-It is suggested by TDC that we massclaim.
2-I come out against the idea.
3-Skruffs, then Aimless state their suspicion of me for my doubts about mass claiming. Aimless puts a vote on me.
4-Tekk claims that he's investigated me, and found me innocent (which really means nothing at this point)
5-Raging Rabbit claims to have investigated me.
6-His investigation of me comes up innocent.

Later on, when TDC suggests that we lynch one of the 2 players that have 2 investigations on them, Raging Rabbit is all for it. Specifically, lynching me. Not looking for scum first and then lynching me, but getting right down to business.

Why haven't you put your vote on me? You've made it perfectly clear that you have no intention of lynching anyone else. Your vote on QoS is useless as a pressure vote. It seems to be there for show.

I think it's possible that Rabbit saw that I was not only the first one to catch some heat, but that I also had one investigation on me. If he were scum, I would be a great person to fake claim an investigation on. The fact that I investigated Jenter is icing on the cake. Now you can argue that I should be lynched without even having to argue that I'm scum. The fact that a few people find my play suspicious makes it an easier sell.

And you had an innocent result on me, which, if you are scum, would be the right move. These results mean nothing today, so you wouldn't have to worry about that result getting in the way of your lynch, but it will make you look that much more valuable tomorrow, once I turn up town.

I could be wrong about you. It looks more and more like I might catch the lynch today, and when I turn up town I hope you guys will hold him to account.

FoS:Raging Rabbit

[Farkshinsoup]

In other news, I came up with this chart for my own use. It plots out the possible roles that everyone has left based on their N0 investigations:

Tekkactus: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Skruffs: Sane Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Aimless: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
dRrool89: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Clammy: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Raging Rabbit: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
ZeekLTK: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Queen_of_Spades: TBD

Please look this over and let me know if I've got it right. If there's an error, then quote it and fix it.

I'd also like to point out once again that there are 3 players (drool, queen and Raging Rabbit) who were not investigated last night. I find it interesting that Raging Rabbit's proposal would keep him from being investigated for the first 2 nights of the game. Unless, of course, he's willing to volunteer as the Day 2 lynch/investigation target.

[Farkshinsoup]

I think wasting two lynches for no other reason then to *hopefully* confirm one or two sane and insane cops, who will be NK'd the next night anyways, is a complete and terrible disaster waiting to happen.

QFT

[Farkshinsoup]

Whoops, TDC, we were both wrong:

4 people not investigated,

dRool, Korlash, Raging Rabbit, and Queen_of Spades

[Farkshinsoup]

Here I am not arguing the point about whether we should have mass claimed. I'm arguing that it is not unreasonable or scummy for me to have suggested it.

And I'm arguing that it

is

unreasonable.

Oh! Ok. So how about actually making a case for it? You know, like I did?

And you are implying that if we had not mass claimed, it would have been impossible for anyone to figure out their roles on their own.

Not impossible, just much slower. Also, lesser chance of trapping scum. The more false info the mafia's forced to commit themselves to, the better.

Nice try. You did say it would be impossible. My comment above was in response to this statement from you (bold mine):

But this happens to be an open set up,

where having all results in the open is the only thing the enables power roles to know they're power roles

. What use are 4 good cops if none of them are even sure their results have any value?

Please quote examples of how my whole argument is "mostly appeals to emotion." I'd like a chance to refute that.

I'm sorry, you do not have a lock on how a townie thinks. It is possible that I can be town, and think differently from you and the rest of the players.

I'm sorry, where did I say that I wanted to lynch QoS? I want to lynch the scum. I don't know if QoS is scum. How could I?

Both are examples of that post's general "poor mistreated townie" tone.

You still haven't shown any examples of me appealing to emotion. You conveniently ignore responding to any of my valid points by labeling me as a "poor mistreated townie". Please try to argue against my actual arguments, not the ones that you invent.

Also,

Again, no way I can convince anyone about this choice, but seeing as I was already drawing some suspicion, if I was scum, why would I choose Jenter? I wouldn't. I would do what all the other scum have clearly done and NOT choose him.

Pure WIFOM.

There you go! Yes, you are right, this is WIFOM. A poor argument, I admit, but I guess I was trying to point out that clearly there are scum in this game who figured out not to investigate Jenter.

Specifically, lynching me. Not looking for scum first and then lynching me, but getting right down to business.

Why haven't you put your vote on me?

So I'm gunning for your immediate lynch without looking for scum on the one hand, and it's wrong to have not voted you on the other? You're completely contradicting yourself.

Oh....OH my god! You have me so confused. Gosh, maybe I am scum!:roll:

I am not contradicting myself. Advocating for my lynch while putting your vote elsewhere is very clever of you, because on Day 2, when I turn up town, you can blame someone else. I'm glad that you've put the vote on me, I like to be attacked head on rather than from behind. (poor choice of words)

I don't have my vote on you both because I

don't

want a lynch before further scumhunting and discussion about tommorow, and definitely don't want a lynch before either qos or her replacement claims a result.

Now YOU are contradicting yourself. In post 121 you said this:

Still, I completely agree with Aimless' analysis of Fark, and also agree that we're better off lynching Fark than Skruffs since Fark's been investigated twice. I therefore suggest lynching Fark and mass-investigating Skruffs.

Busted!

Unless, of course, he's willing to volunteer as the Day 2 lynch/investigation target.

I obviously don't want to be lynched, but if everyone decides I'm most suspicious I'd rather they'd at least mass target me and figure out some sanities than just lynch me the old fashioned way.

Either way is good for me. Again, if I end up lynched today, I really hope that town takes you up on this.

Your arguments all sound convincing on the surface, until you realize that it's one huge straw man argument. (except for the WIFOM call, that was the exception that proves the rule.)

I take my hat off to you. You have a real talent for obfuscation and misdirection.

Unvote: Queen_of_Spades
Vote: Raging Rabbit

[Farkshinsoup]

I didn't mention Fark, because I assume he's going to die today.

And as for sacrificing myself: I'm usually an early NK anyway; better to get some use out of my role than to die without doing anything.

I stand corrected, sir! You are a leader.

I'm not too sure about the wisdom of your decision, though. It's better to lynch scum than town.

And you are being manipulated by RR, who is scum. Please think again.

If I somehow survive, I will be investigating RR. If I don't, I suggest that someone else investigate him.

[Farkshinsoup]

Fark: He is not sacrificing himself.
We don't need to actually lynch him, unless we get a counter claim. (And if we get one, it's a one to one scum-town trade, still good).

QFT

Let's do a poll on Aimless's N0 investigation. TDC is on board, and as for me, it wouldn't help me anyways, and you know who I'll be investigating. Where does everyone else sit on this issue?

Obviously Aimless, Skruff, and QoS will be targeting elsewhere anyways. In my opinion, they should keep those investigation targets to themselves for now, but if I am lynched, someone should investigate RR for sure.

As for Fark's case on me, his two supposed contradictions look to me like clear attempts of clinging to trivialities. If anyone else takes it seriously, I'll be happy to defend myself.

You are once again misrepresenting my arguments against you. "Clinging to trivialities"? That's a good one. I'm going to use that next time I'm scum.

I hope that someone else in this game does take my argument seriously, because I think it would be good for town to hear you defend yourself against my actual arguments, before I get lynched.

[Farkshinsoup]

The thing is, If RR is scum (like Fark want us to believe) we wont learn much by lynching Fark, because RR has no sanity, he is just lying (RR investigated Fark in N0).

I've merely been responding to attacks being made against me, and the way that people have responded to those attacks. I haven't been trying to convince anyone that RR is scum. I believe it, at this point. You should obviously make up your own mind.

Skruffs: That seems like an odd mistake. I was clearly against the mass claim from the beginning, you yourself even said you found it suspicious. It's why I have 3 votes at the moment. It's the main thing going on the game to this point.

We have 2 weeks left until the deadline. Let's use it wisely. I'd like to hear more from some of the less vocal players, not so much about the investigation plans, but about who they think is the scummiest player at the moment and why.

dRool: I'm still waiting to hear some more from you about your reasons for finding me scummy. (other than, "he seems scummy")

[Farkshinsoup]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that arguments about how we should proceed with investigations are wasting valuable time.

1 - There are so many variables still regarding sanities, scum vs. town, false results, that no one is going to be able to convince everyone (and me specifically) that any one plan is foolproof and is going to work better than any other. That may change after this coming Night, we'll see.

2 - It's also clear that there is no consensus, nor will there be one before we go to night. Some people will investigate Aimless. Some won't. Everyone seems to have their own idea (whether as honest and well meaning town or as duplicitous scum) about which one is the best. This will be helpful down the road when we have some more bodies and we can see what they were arguing for.

3 - One thing that Skruffs is right about - even if we never figure out everyone's (or anyone's) sanities, we can still find scum. I think that it is in scum's best interest to keep us arguing about game mechanics instead of hunting.

So how can you hunt scum if you don't know your sanity?

How do you do it in any game where you are not a cop? Are you telling me that you're just going to sit around until your sanity is confirmed? I know that isn't true, because today you are challenging Skruffs and seem to think he's scum.

[Farkshinsoup]

You have a point about RR and QoS: I propose that they claim first tomorrow, if still alive.

I agree.

[Farkshinsoup]

I find Fark scummy because of his initial objection to mass claim, along with his eventual claim that he investigated the dead guy. I'm also not convinced by his defense, which I find to contain little true substance.

I'd like to point out that because both of these arguments for my scumminess go to my motives, there is no way that I could ever make a convincing defense of them. There's also no way that you, or anyone else can know my motives, which is why it's such a weak argument for being scum.

Which is why you also point to the investigative benefit of lynching me. It keeps you from having to build an actual convincing argument against me.

Either you are working on a hunch, which is poor play, or you are lying scum. Which of those guys do you want to be?

What's interesting is that you accuse Skruffs of twisting people's words when that is what you have been doing continually in this game. I'm not saying that Skruffs isn't also doing it, but you are being quite the hypocrite.

They're both scummy, but Skruffs strikes me as the better player.

I don't agree with the first part, but I have to concede the second part.

Aimless, I'd like you to remember the fact that just because you are the most town player, does not make you automatically correct. For example, you are wrong about my scumminess, and I would direct you to the statement above, where I point out that RR is claiming to know my motives. Now, if you guys are prepared to lynch me to confirm my motives, so be it.

That having been said, I have not made up my mind about Skruffs yet, but I'm not sure he's scum. I'll keep watching.

[Farkshinsoup]

No one knows anyone's motives for sure on day 1... I find yours the most dubious along with Skruffs' for reasons already explained. I'd like you to give me an exapmle of what you would consider a "strong" argument, one that isn't based on motives.

Motives are a good starting point, of course, giving you a target to put pressure on. Based on how they react, and the quality of the arguments that they make, one can make an educated guess. For example, your early attempts to keep yourself from being investigated and your convenient investigation of me, along with your advocacy of my lynch are what drew my attention at first. But it's your crap logic and straw man arguments that have me thinking you are scum.

But to claim that someone is scummy based solely on your suspicion of their motives is flawed. You decided that I was scum before I even had a chance to defend myself. And when I did try, you proclaimed that unconvincing.

And I ask you again, how can anyone give a convincing defense of his own motives, short of being lynched?

[Farkshinsoup]

We apparantly have a different definition of "motives". I perceive "motive" suspicions as having doubts about whether a person's thinking is coming from a pro town point of view, for example your rejection to the mass claim caused me to doubt your motives. Since we vote people based of whether we think them anti town, I see nothing wrong with lynching based "only" on thinking a player isn't working for the town's best interest. What else is there? I don't see how your case on me is any different - my "crap logic and straw man argument" caused you to doubt my motives, right?

No, I doubted your motives first, then your crap logic and straw man arguments convinced me that your are likely scum. And I think that we do agree on the definition of motives, I just think there should be more than that before you proclaim someone scum.

I started thinking you were likely scum based on what I percieve to be scummy actions, I'm sorry for not giving you a week's notice. Also, I "proclaimed" you unconvincing because I didn't find your defense convincing. Are you saying that finding someone else scummy even after he defends himself is anti-town?

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. What I find scummy is that you have deemed my poor defense of my motives to be further proof of my scumminess, even though by definition, there is no way for me to adequately defend my motives, short of my death.

And I ask you again, how can anyone give a convincing defense of his own motives, short of being lynched?

By refuting the reasons other give for doubting them. That can't always be done to a full extent, though. Some attacks can't quite be refuted, for example people find me scummy for claiming a second investigation on you after you've had some suspicion, and while I know I that I was telling the truth and claimed investigation on my very first game post, there's no way for me to completely refute that. If you couldn't refute Aimless' case on you, I find it odd you decided to dedicate a post to sounding all mistreated instead.

Yes, here's another example of how you try to characterize me as some sort of manipulative martyr. You rarely seem to make any arguments, or refute any arguments against you, but you are very good at dismissing the players you are arguing with. The post of mine you are referencing is Post 119 on page 5. I invite everyone who is interested to read it for themselves and make up their own mind about whether I try to sound "mistreated"

Also,

...your early attempts to keep yourself from being investigated...

Huh?

I'm referring to this:

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this idea I just thought of:

We choose the second scummiest player (after the one who gets lynched), and everyone investigates him tonight (excepct for those who already did last night, obviously).Then tommorow, we lynch him.

Since you weren't investigated last night, this conveniently keeps you from being investigated again on N1. And you say "him", as if you already had someone in mind. Who were you thinking about at that point? (Not QoS, obviously)

[Farkshinsoup]

Zeek, I am not arguing for or against any investigations anymore. That's been pretty much settled. I've said before that I think it's a distraction from finding scum.

But I do think that it's possible that both scum and town can see the logic in a certain way of investigating, for completely different, and valid reasons. Even if I don't agree with the plan, I'm not saying that everyone supporting this plan is scum.

What I'm saying is that if RR is scum, this is the plan that most helps him. And I would like to hear RR respond, which I'm sure he will do.

[Farkshinsoup]

Aimless, the whole basis of your argument against me is based on the fallacy that because I held and expressed a minority opinion, that made me scum. This is a poor reason to find someone scummy.

And unlike you, I think that engaging with the players you find the scummiest has a lot of value for the town. Since you think that I will turn up scum if you lynch me, don't you want me posting a lot? I sure want RR to keep talking. The more he says, the more chance that he will slip up. Or maybe he'll start making some valuable arguments and change my mind.

Or do you not want to debate with me because you're worried that I might be right, and you might have to admit that you had me figured wrong, and start all over again from scratch? This is exactly what the scum want, townies attacking townies.

[Farkshinsoup]

Players I'd like to hear more from:

Clammy, dRool, QoS

You guys have been pretty quiet throughout Day 1. Who do you think the most scummy player is? Any other thoughts?

For the record, while I don't necessarily find it scummy to support a lynch on a player just to get investigative results, I do think that it's likely that scum will also support that idea, because it's a tidy way for them to lynch a townie without having to actually make a case against them. It'll be something to look back to on Day2, 3, etc.

Also, with the deadline, scum will likely not have to even put their vote anywhere, because even if I or tekk or RR or whoever have the simple majority of votes on them, they will be lynched. So again, I say that in this game, lurking is scum's best friend, because they want the clock to run out.

One way or the other, I'm hoping that everyone puts a vote out before we get to the deadline.

[Farkshinsoup]

Our arugments aren't different in nature. While you obviously think yours are stronger and I the opposite, we aren't basing them on anything but "motive suspicions". The is no magic ingredient that causes your theory to be inherently stronger than mine, as you seem to imply by using words like "convinced".

Yes, they are different in nature. I used my suspicions over your motives as my starting point, but that is not my only argument for your scumminess. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

It's up to the town to decide whose actions were scummier.

QFT

And you say "him", as if you already had someone in mind. Who were you thinking about at that point? (Not QoS, obviously)

I'd just like to point out that this semantic argument is far fetched to the extreme.

Uhm, it's not an argument. It's a question. A question you seem reluctant to answer. Let me re-phrase it. Were you thinking of anyone in particular, and if so, who?

you have deemed my poor defense of my motives to be further proof of my scumminess, even though by definition, there is no way for me to adequately defend my motives, short of my death.

If there isn't, just say you have no way to defend it (which is no shame at all, sometimes there isn't) instead of defending yourself using appeal to emotion.

That is exactly what I did here, when asked why I investigated Jenter:

I've never played with anyone here, so I just picked my N0 investigation randomly. To be honest, his name just stuck out to me. Obviously no way to convince you of that, but there it is.

You keep calling me out on arguments that I have not made ( my supposed "appeal to emotion"), and conveniently failing to acknowledge the things that I have posted (the above admission that I can't really defend my motives). It's a good way to portray someone as scum, but I'm not just going to roll over and let you get away with it.

...You rarely seem to make any arguments, or

refute any arguments against you

...

This stands in direct contradiction to the quote just above it.

1) You attack me for attacking your poor defense of arguments that can't be refuted (though again, you really should've said they can't be refuted originally instead of trying to defend yourself via appeal to emotion).
2) You attack my lack of defense against arguments

of the very same nature.

There is no contradiction. I am challenging your misrepresentation and poor arguments, not your motives. You have not even attempted to defend any part of your arguments, you just dismiss my challenges.

And again, I did say that I couldn't defend my motives, as I have shown with the above quote, so you're clearly trying to cloud the issue with yet another straw man. And as I pointed out, the arguments are not of the same nature.

...because I held and expressed a minority opinion, that made me scum. This is a poor reason to find someone scummy.

That opinion was minority for a reason - it's bad for the town.

As I stated in my original post responding to Aimless's arguments against me: That is an opinion, not a fact. Can you prove that my original idea was bad for town? Of course not. You yourself even admitted that you originally thought it might be a good idea.

A while ago, you stated this:

As for Fark's case on me, his two supposed contradictions look to me like clear attempts of clinging to trivialities. If anyone else takes it seriously, I'll be happy to defend myself.

I think, since Korlash has some doubts about you, that it's time for you to put forward this defense. Or were you just hoping that the clock would run out and you wouldn't have me challenging you anymore? Please try defending yourself against my ACTUAL arguments this time, I think that would be helpful.

[Farkshinsoup]

Alright, you did admit that in one post I didn't remember about one of the arguments against you, which is what you should've continued to do if you can't defend against any. What I find scummy and was refering to all this time is post 119, which is a very long and equally worthless attempt to defend yourself against Aimless' analysis that you now claim you knew even then you couldn't refute. Why write it, then?

There are clearly arguments that he made against me which I did try to refute, and points that I wanted clarified, (which never really were). So there's more there than just trying to justify my motives, despite your efforts to reduce it to that only.

And why post it? Because he was trying to make a case that I was scum, that's why. Of course it is up to town to judge whether I've done a good job of that, but I certainly am not going to sit there and let accusations go unanswered.

Now, I'm going to take a break from arguing with you. I don't think it's doing a lot of good. I'm certainly not going to change your mind about me, and vice-versa. And if we do turn out to be 2 townies fighting, then it's giving cover to scum who might want to hide.

I will say this about you RR, you haven't been shy about defending yourself.

[Farkshinsoup]

Clammy, that post says a whole lot of nothing. Forget about the math and the theories, (I certainly have) and please tell us who you think the scummiest player is and why.

Same for dRool and QoS.

[Farkshinsoup]

Maybe that means we don't do as much "scum hunting" today (which is what I'm being attacked for suggesting I guess), but it means that it's basically impossible for the town to lose in the long run

"Basically impossible"? I don't want to get back into the merits of this plan, it's already been decided. But here's where I have a problem. I don't know how anyone in this game can be so certain, at this point, given all of the variables still out there, that their plan is THAT foolproof. Are some plans better than others? Sure. But, hypothetically speaking, what if today's lynch and tonight's NK turn out to be 2 of the 4 useful cops. That would be unlikely, and really bad luck, but it's certainly possible. That would render any attempts to uncover our identities through lynching a lot less effective in the long run. We could even lose the game. It's certainly not inconceivable.

I just don't see how you, or anyone can be so certain about ANY plan at this point. And then you start flinging out "anti-town" epithets at anyone who dares question it. In this game, a lot of things specific to this game have been unilaterally decided to be anti-town. Being against the initial mass claim was one, and now being against Zeek's plans in any way seems to be another.

There are things that we can all accept as anti-town, like lurking for example. But when you start using it as an epithet to smear anyone who questions you, it just seems like you want someone lynched without having to do much work.

And why are you still arguing for this plan, Zeek? It's been pretty much settled. Tekk was challenging something you said, something ridiculous I might add, and you managed to turn it into another argument about your plan.

[Farkshinsoup]

Mod, can we get a vote count and a prod of dRool and QoS?

[Farkshinsoup]

Clammy, I was the one who wrote that post, not Tekk.

[Farkshinsoup]

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
drool -> Skruffs | Innocent
clammy -> Tekk | Guilty
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | Innocent
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty
queen_of_spades -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Aimless: Sane, Insane, Paranoid
dRrool89: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Clammy: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Raging Rabbit: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
ZeekLTK: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Queen_of_Spades: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

Just wanted that all in one place for our convenience.

Mod: did QoS ever pick up her prod? If she hasn't, when do you replace her, and if you replace her, will the deadline be extended?

Also looking to hear more from Skruffs and TDC, who haven't posted in a while.

As for me, right now I will

unvote and Vote: dRool

. Earlier on, you seemed to jump on the Farkwagon with no good reason. When I challenged you, you quickly took the vote off. Now, when you do post, you are very non-committal and you don't offer up any opinions. Seems like you are trying to fly under the radar and wait until night comes.

[Farkshinsoup]

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
drool -> Skruffs | Innocent
clammy -> Tekk | Guilty
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | Innocent
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Aimless: Sane, Insane, Paranoid
dRrool89: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Clammy: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Raging Rabbit: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
ZeekLTK: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
charter: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

Well, first off, TDC is the one who made those changes to reflect Aimless's role, but I happen to agree with them.

There can only be one retired cop in the game. Either Aimless is that retired cop, or he is lying about it, and the real retired cop has decided to let that go unchallenged, which, although remotely possible, I find pretty hard to believe.

Are you saying that you doubt Aimless's claim?

[Farkshinsoup]

No, i'm saying we're applying assumptions based on the "right" play when we have three amognst us who want to derail our idea of what is right. I believe Aimless' claim, but what i believe doesn't change the mathematics involved.

So are you saying that there could be a town player who is actually the cop, but is keeping that hidden?

If Aimless is one of the three, then the real retired cop should counterclaim.

QFT.

[Farkshinsoup]

EBWOP: I meant to say "Retired Cop".

[Farkshinsoup]

Point taken. I think it's a good idea for every player to scrutinize these charts every time they are reposted, to make sure there are no errors or inconsistencies.

[Farkshinsoup]

I think the question is whether we should be claiming our investigations at all on Day 2.

If we decide that we don't, then it's a moot point. If we decide that we do, then aimless should decide the order, because he's the only one we can trust. That having been said, just because Aimless's motives are clean, doesn't mean that he will necessarily come up with the optimal order, from scum up to town, TDC.

For example, he's pretty certain that I am scum, and he's wrong about that.

[Farkshinsoup]

Yes, we can scum hunt, but we should also be aware that we can catch scum simply by investigating them. I don't see how that is so hard to grasp - we have a mechanism that allows people to KNOW if someone is scum rather than trying to figure it out, am I the only one who thinks "hey we should probably use it"?

You clearly aren't the only one who thinks that, so stop playing the martyr.

My problem with you is that you is the same problem that I have with aimless - you assume that anyone who doesn't see the logic of your argument is automatically "anti-town". I really dislike that use of groupthink to scum hunt, and I think that it will lead to mislynches.

[Farkshinsoup]

That having been said, just because Aimless's motives are clean, doesn't mean that he will necessarily come up with the optimal order, from scum up to town, TDC.

Of course not, but I think we can all agree that he's going to be unbiased.

It seemed like in the post quoted below, you were implying that aimless would force the scum to claim first, which is why I tried to inject a little reality:

Regardless of what else we do, the information that scum gain is exactly the same no matter in what order we claim. The information that we gain, however, can be maximised if we force scum to claim first.

[Farkshinsoup]

I will post the list in the order of people I think are mostly likely scum. It will probably *not* have the three scum at the very top (even I'm not perfect), but I think I'm a good enough judge that most of the scum will be towards the top.

To be honest, I have more faith in scum's ability to hide their identities from you than I have faith in your ability to figure them out, but whatever. You're our only option.

[Farkshinsoup]

Charter, I know you just replaced in, but we kind of had this N1 investigation question settled. Not sure I see the benefit of re-opening that issue at this point.

I'd like to move things to a different tack. I'd like to put some pressure on dRool. Even if you think I'm scum, and even if I ultimately get lynched, I think this would be a good thing. Anyone else think that he's the least vocal, most non-committal player in this game? If so, put another vote on him please. He could be scum, but we'll never know it because he won't say anything of consequence before the deadline.

[Farkshinsoup]

Mod: can we get a vote count? Also, could we get an updated vote count every day until the deadline?

[Farkshinsoup]

This is my daily dRool call. Any thoughts dRool?

[Farkshinsoup]

Lots more talk about investigation plans. This doesn't interest me all that much right now. Since I am one of the players who already has a confirmed investigation (Jenter), it wouldn't make sense for me to investigate Aimless. I will say that I will be investigating someone who was not investigated on N0 - I'm going to see how the rest of this day plays out before I decide who it will be, as things have changed considerably in my mind with recent posts.

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of anyone who believes that they know exactly how we should proceed with certainty. They're not necessarily scum, but there's no way that anyone can have this game totally figured out, so they're just misguided IMHO. I'd put in this category Zeek, Skruffs, Rabbit. Skruffs, at the moment you kind of remind me of the insane guy on the street corner screaming, "The End Is Near!!" You may be right, but no one is gonna listen to you.

Now, onto other things. dRool, where are you? You are the lurkingest player in this game and I think you are just riding out the clock.

Mod, can we please get a prod on dRool?And an updated vote count? And can you please change post number 1 to reflect charter's replacement of QoS?

[Farkshinsoup]

I'm here, I'm waiting for the result on those prods.

[Farkshinsoup]

Charter, I doubt that I will be voting for Zeek today. And if we have a replacement from those prods, I'm assuming that will extend the deadline, but I'll do a re-read before the end of the weekend one way or the other, and vote accordingly.

[Farkshinsoup]

I've been reluctant to wade back into this whole "my investigation plan is better than yours" argument. But Zeek, I have some questions for you regarding your last few posts.

Scenario 1:
Player X says he investigated Player A on Night 0 and got a guilty
Player X says he investigated Player B on Night 1 and got an innocent

HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH OF THE THREE IS SCUM? Is it Player A, Player B, or Player X? If we lynch Player A then Player X will say "oh, I must be insane, Player B is the real scum"... and then if we lynch Player B we will have lost two townies trying to figure out that Player X is the real scum.

*this is your plan*

I see what you are saying, but what you are forgetting is that we will have other investigations from other players to look at as well. What's to stop us from just moving on to Player Y, or Player Z, whose investigations provide us with the kind of information that you are looking for? We can only lynch one player per day, and we may have multiple situations like this to deal with. Some players will certainly be investigating Aimless tonight, so we can just use one of theirs, and file away Player X's investigation until Day 3, at which point, assuming he is still alive, he will now have another investigation for us to correlate.

Scenario 2:
Player X says he investigated Player A on Night 0 and got a guilty
Player X says he investigated Aimless on Night 1 and got an innocent

In this one, if we lynch Player A, then we KNOW Player X is scum... It's really easy.

*this is my plan*

I'd like to point out that to get to the point where we can finally lynch Player X, we will have: lynched a possible townie on Day 1 to help our investigations, had a townie NK'd N1, lynched another innocent townie on Day 2 to confirm whether Player X is town or scum, and had another townie NK'd on N3 before we finally get to lynch that damn scummy Player X!

Now granted, this is a worst case scenario - we could lynch scum today, which would be great, but I'm not optimistic, and Player X is just as likely to be the useful cop, which would mean that our Day 2 lynch would be scum. I must say though, that faced with this scenario, if i was scum I would just be trying to look like a useless cop and an innocent townie, because they will probably make it through to the end of the game.

Or what if Scum decide to designate one scum as the investigative scapegoat, someone they can claim to have investigated and then bus, so that when he's lynched, they come up looking like a useful, confirmed cop?

Zeek, I say all this not because I am critical of your plan per se. I am critical of all plans, at this point. For you, or skruffs, or RR, or Charter, or Aimless to say that you have the One True Plan that is guaranteed to lead us to victory is just plain wrong. There are too many variables, and too many things that can go disastrously wrong.

It's part of why everyone is fighting over their plans, because every plan has major flaws, and every plan can be twisted by the scum to their own ends.

Also, is there anyone here who honestly thinks that at this point they are going to convince everyone that their plan is best and we should all follow along? Not going to happen. In my opinion you're all just making it easier for potential scum to stay out of the fray. This is an unwinnable argument, therefore we should not be having it at this point. On later days, hindsight may help us spot some useful slip-ups, but right now it's just a whole lot of noise.

[Farkshinsoup]

In the past few pages Zeek has said a lot to help me build a case on him, but an essay on my part requires time I don't have at the moment. Expect it tomorrow morning.

Oh I'd love to hear this case (based on the last few pages especially):

-Zeek is not opposed to claiming in order.
-Zeek wants to make it easier to catch scum lying.

Clearly we should lynch Zeek [/sarcasm]

And Zeek, don't do this. You're attacking a straw man. Let Tekk make his arguments, and then refute them.

[Farkshinsoup]

Mod, did those players pick up their prods?

[Farkshinsoup]

Hmm.

So dRool seems to have dropped off the board.

Unvote: dRool

But clammy picked up his prod and still did not post anything, even though we're a day away from the deadline. Seems like the very definition of lurking.

Not that it will do much good, but

Vote: Clammy

[Farkshinsoup]

I guess I'll go back to my original vote then.

unvote
Vote: Raging Rabbit

[Farkshinsoup]

How much scummier is RR than your next candidate? Who is your next candidate? I ask because no one (unfortunately) investigated RR last night, so lynching him won't help anyone confirm their sanities. Granted, this shouldn't preclude someone from getting lynched, but I can wait until tomorrow to lynch RR.

My next scummiest candidate was dRool, who also was not investigated, but he's flaked and will be replaced, so I don't feel right putting my vote on him.

I know you want me to help lynch Zeek, and I have my problems with him, but overall I'm reading him as town. So my vote on RR will stand.

I think we should reveal tomorrow. Otherwise, what was the point of revealing today, and all the subsequent discussion? Also, some players will certainly reveal anyways, so we might as well all reveal, and reveal in the order that Aimless has set out.

This would also (for the moment) be my suggested order for claiming tomorrow:

Scruffs
dRool
Fark
RR
Tekk
charter
Korlash
clammy
Zeek
TDC

Whatever revised list Aimless comes up with before the thread gets shut down tonight should be the order that we reveal tomorrow. If he doesn't post before that, or if he's good with this order, then we'll stick with this one.

All in favour?

[Farkshinsoup]

Just wanted to remind everyone here that 4 people were not investigated last night, Alabaska J, Korlash, Raging Rabbit, and Charter. If you are not investigating Aimless, you should think about investigating one of them.

[Farkshinsoup]

I decided that since we had an extra 2 days, I would try to do a bit of a reread to get some perspective.

As I've said quite a few times, I believe that arguing over the investigation plans are a distraction. So I decided to re-read the posts of the main players who are doing this: RR, Zeek, Charter, and Skruffs. RR I still have doubts about, Zeek I have doubts about but I think is town, charter - not sure yet, but Skruffs is the scummiest player here. Here's why:

My top choice for suspicion is of course Farkinshop, after QoS. No offense Fark but your choice was very unlucky. Hopefully you will get an innocent on someone tonight.

Skruffs is referring to my "unlucky choice" of Jenter as my N0 investigation. So why is he apologizing for finding me scummy? Lots of players thought this was scummy, no one else apologized for it. It's like he knew that I was town, and "hoping" that i got an innocent investigation tonight, that's strange.

We can not do anything to determine who's results are good vs wrong vs broken until we have at least two results. Waiting one day might clear BOTH Tekk and Fark. It is better to lynch someone with no results on them because there is no loss of information AND she's likely sucm anyways.

At this point I had put a vote on QoS to get her to stop lurking, but here Skruffs is already advocating her lynch. Seems like a bandwagon. Also, as has been pointed out, it's not better to lynch someone that has no investigtions on them.

If we lynch someone today because they have investigations on them and NOT because they are acting scummy, we are removing all traces of scum hunting from the game. One slot is used up.

Fark is both, though.

I'm afraid simply saying that doesn't mean anything to me. Explain how and why.

IF we then all target, say, me, tonight, and I get NK'd...

Assuming your'e town, you won't get NK'd unless the mafia's extemely stupid and decides to save us a misslynch. You keep ignoring that.

So you want to lynch a townie today

, direct all the cop investigations tonight, and then lynch me tomorrow? Wow.

Bold mine

Again, he refers to me as a townie as if he knows that information. He previously said that he finds me scummy, so why is he here defending me as a townie?

While attacking RR, he said this:

You suggested that Fark was unreasonable for suggesting a mass claim, though that mass claim revealed information that the town needs.

In my very next post I called him on it. It still seems like a strange mistake, because most of the first part of the day was taken up with me defending myself for opposing a mass claim. In fact, Skruffs himself was the first to suspect me for it.

Lynching clammy would result in Jenter/Aimless as 1 out of 2 possible sanities, but since she is dead tonight anyways, there is no possible way to reduce that possibility any further.

As Aimless then pointed out:

In particular, the fact that he advocated lynching clammy for the sole purpose of ascertaining my sanity (and did so after I had claimed) despite my almost certain death tonight convinced me that he can't be town.

By the way, I think Aimless should decide on a full claim order for tomorrow.

This works for me. I was planning on posting a final list of my suspicions and reasoning before the deadline anyway; I can come up with an order then as well.

For example, TDC told you to make the claim list, and coincidentally, he's at the bottom of your order to claim. You being a confirmed townie does NOT Make you more likely to be right about who is scum and who isn't. I am more than happy to claim tomorrow, FIRST, just like I was today, but I Think the rest of the order should not be based on your own hunches unless you feel you are sure enough in your hunches about the game to be responsible fi you wind up putting scum last. You know how gullible you are, I don't, so it's up to you, I would suggest using dice or random.org though. But to show I'm not trying to manipulate you, sure, feel free to put me up first.

I don't care if Skruffs offered to go first, why is he trying to convince Aimless to change his claim order for Day 2? Seems scummy.

And since he has spent the entire time arguing about this investigation,

Vote: Skruffs

[Farkshinsoup]

I would be fine with that.

I really hope aimless checks in before this day ends. If anyone is thinking of dropping the hammer, could you please hold off for a bit to give Aimless a little more time? A quick search shows that he hasn't posted anything on the boards since last Wednesday.

[Farkshinsoup]

The above definition does apply to the way you've recently been attacking my character and general playstyle, however.

QFT

Skruffs, I'll never forgive you for making me agree with RR.

Die scum.

Mod, can we get a prod on Aimless?

[Farkshinsoup]

This would also (for the moment) be my suggested order for claiming tomorrow:

Scruffs
dRool
Fark
RR
Tekk
charter
Korlash
clammy
Zeek
TDC

Since Skruffs is no longer alive, and Alabaska J replaced dRool, he'll be the first to claim his investigation, then me, then on down the list.

As you announce your result, requote the 2 charts below and change your own result when you do so that it is updated.

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent
clammy -> Tekk | Guilty
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | Innocent
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid
Aimless: Sane, Insane, Paranoid
Alabaska J: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Clammy: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Raging Rabbit: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
ZeekLTK: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

I've taken the liberty of updating Skruffs' to remove the "scum" possibility.

[Farkshinsoup]

Oh right, Alabaska is off until Monday, so we may have to wait until then for his result.

Mod, when is our next deadline?

[Farkshinsoup]

Waiting on Alabaska. I may not be able to check in again until later today, so hopefully he'll have posted by then.

[Farkshinsoup]

Investigated Raging Rabbit, got a guilty result.

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent
clammy -> Tekk | Guilty
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | Innocent
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid
Aimless: Sane, Insane, Paranoid
Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum
Clammy: Sane, Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Raging Rabbit: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
ZeekLTK: Sane, Insane, Naive, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

So RR is next, but I know that he has limited access. I think it's important that we wait for him.

[Farkshinsoup]

Korlash is next.

[Farkshinsoup]

Sorry, Charter, but RR has the right idea. We need to keep Zeek and TLC alive today so that the one who is scum will have to back themselves into more of a corner. If they are both scum, then they will both be backed into that corner, and we will have more ammo later on. If one is town, then he may well get to live another day and give us another investigation. If we lynch either Zeek or TLC then both of them will for sure be dead by tomorrow morning.

I need to actually write this out on paper so that I can understand it, but right now Clammy is looking like a good lynch to me.

I'm curious to hear what Zeek thinks about all this.

[Farkshinsoup]

Zeek is erratic but more convincing, TDC is reasonable but seems more scummy.

Let's get back to RR's plan, it makes a lot of sense. We all know now that either TDC or Zeek is scum, so fine, let's move on. We can lynch you guys later.

Charter, it's clear that you think zeek is scum, you've been saying it from the moment you replaced in. I'd prefer, since you are 1 of the 3 members of this circle of suspicion, for you to comment on that.

[Farkshinsoup]

If_ Aimless is/was sain then based on the information at hand the chance of my being scum is greatly increased over charter and Fark

If Aimless was sane, then there is a 100% chance that you are scum, since he investigated you and found you guilty. Way to fudge the facts.

Chances that Aimless is sane are 33%, he could be both insane or paranoid, and the mistake being made here is to ignore that if Paranoid the same guilty would show on either charter or Fark, and that if insane the innocent/innocents amongst us would also show up guilty.

RR's mistake is that he forgets that Aimless may have been able to obtain up to three guilty results on the trio of us, but only mine could be revealed to the town. This does not make it Aimless' only guilty.

What? Aimless only investigated you before he was NK'd, so yes, it is his only guilty result. And ultimately, Aimless's sanity is not the main reason why one of us should be lynched today - it's that by process of elimination, one of us is scum. Luckily, you're making this decision a lot easier by making scummy posts like that.

That having been said, if you turn up scum, that would let us know that Aimless was sane, which will also help us to further narrow down who is lying about their roles.

I also noticed that you hopped on the Zeek wagon.

By keeping both Zeek and TDC alive today, it puts scum in a very awkward position. Either they kill one of them, thereby giving us a 100% lynch for tomorrow, or they leave a confirmed cop alive, giving him another night's investigation. Now if they are both scum (very unlikely, but possible, we should be able to figure that out later on as well, as we will have more confirmed cops).

I think that clammy wants zeek dead so that he can a) stay alive and b) avoid the above situation.
Lastly, since I know that I'm town, it makes me that much more convinced that you are scum.

Vote:clammy

Zeek, in case you do get lynched, please do up a reveal order for us just like TDC did.

[Farkshinsoup]

EBWOP, It should read:

Now if they are both scum (very unlikely, but possible), we should be able to figure that out later on as well, as we will have more confirmed cops.

[Farkshinsoup]

Also, I reiterate and broaden my request:
Can Alabaska, Tekk, RR and Korlash (at most one of these four is scum) agree on a claim list and direct the investigations of Zeek, I, charter and Fark (if need be dependent on clammy's alignment) for the clammy-lynch-case.

I agree with this. I don't see any way that there is more than one scum in that four, so I don't think it would be too heavily scum influenced.

Agreed.

[Farkshinsoup]

The fact that any of you are voting for someone other than Zeek or TDC today screams scum. Since you guys love statistics, here are our options:

1) We pick the right one and lynch scum. This is always a good thing.

2) We pick the wrong one and lynch a Cop. This makes the other confirmed scum.

If the town investigates said confirmed scum, and combines it with the result they had on Aimless/Scruffs/Jenter, every protown player will be 100% certain of their sanity, AND we'll have a definite target for D3.

Tekk, remember there are 3 scum out there. We now know that TDC and/or Zeek is one of them. But that does not mean we have to lynch one of them today. When I first read RR's suggestion to do just that, I was very suspicious, but it does make sense. As I pointed out earlier, leaving them both alive makes things much harder for scum than if we picked one to lynch.

Because of all of the possible insane/paranoid cops, we also know where there are some liars. Do you not agree that either clammy, charter, or me are lying? Because of the results, it has to be the case.

I'll tell you that right now I am more sure that clammy is scum than I am of either TDC or Zeek. (meaning if I had to choose between the two, I'm not sure which way I would go) Now, of course, I have knowledge that you do not, namely that I am town, but you don't have to trust me. If clammy turns up town then you can come and get me tomorrow. Hell, if everyone finds me scummier, then lynch me and get him tomorrow. Either way it's a good plan.

Obviously, though I would prefer to lynch scum today.

[Farkshinsoup]

Please also supply investigation targets, I would prefer if Zeek had a different target than me, for obvious reasons.

If clammy is guilty, you'll investigate charter and Zeek'll investigate Fark.

If he's innocent, you'll investigate Tekk and Zeek'll invetigate Koralsh. I don't think we need to assign investigations for the others.

I'd just like everyone to chime in on whether they agree with this. I want to make sure this isn't coming from just one person, and agreed to by just one suspect.

Since I'm one of the potential investigation targets, I'll let others decide this.

[Farkshinsoup]

oh, Zeek hammered while I was posting. Still, during twilight, others can chime in.

[Farkshinsoup]

zeek, are you okay with RR's investigation plan for you?

[Farkshinsoup]

Charter, I'll tell you who to investigate, you tell me who to investigate. You investigate Raging Rabbit.

[Farkshinsoup]

Please no one put any more votes on until we have a chance to see all the results and figure out what they mean. RR helped us out a lot by noticing the clammy thing, that's probably why they killed him last night.

If we choose between Zeek and TDC today, and we guess wrong, then we will wake up tomorrow with 5 players and 2 scum, we'll lynch the survivor (TDC or Zeek) and the next day will be lylo with 2 town and 1 scum. If we can figure out something from our investigations to either hedge the odds in favour of one of them or the other, that would be great, or maybe someone else will be implicated like clammy was.

Zeek, you're up.

[Farkshinsoup]

TDC has the claim order quoted from RR in his post above. charter claims next.

[Farkshinsoup]

Let's wait until everyone reports before we start trying to draw any conclusions. Also, Tekk, would you mind, when you post, quoting the 2 charts from TDC and updating the results to reflect Zeek and charter's results as well as your own? Also, we should all be checking these charts to make sure they remain accurate as they are quoting and requoting.

[Farkshinsoup]

I investigated TDC - I got a guilty.

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; RR | Innocent
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; TCD | Innocent
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; charter | Guilty
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent
ZeekLTK -> TDC | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; Fark | Guilty
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty; TDC | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty; Korlash | Guilty; RR | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Naive, Scum

Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid
Aimless: Sane, Paranoid

Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum

Clammy: Scum

Korlash: Sane, Naive, Scum
TDC: Insane, Scum

Raging Rabbit: Sane, Naive

ZeekLTK: Insane, Scum
Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

Before we go any further, could both TDC and zeek do up a reveal order for tomorrow? I know you guys did one yesterday, but you may want to revise it. Unless someone sees something that I don't, I think we have to lynch one of these guys today.

Well I think it's fairly obvious why they killed RR, he was the most likely to vote WITH me (against TDC).

Agree with Alabaska, that's WIFOM. Other reasons why they would have wanted RR dead: He figured out clammy was scum, had a good understanding of the game mechanics, and killing him resolved relatively few sanities, as up until last night, I was the only one who had investigated him.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of things hinge on Aimless's sanity.

We know Skruffs was insane or paranoid. We know that one of TDC or Zeek are insane.

If Aimless was paranoid, then that means that there would be one more paranoid and one more insane. Once you add Skruffs into that, it means that either Charter or I are scum. But this is only if Aimless was paranoid.

If Aimless was sane, then the 1 remaining scum is in the Tekk/Alabaska/Korlash group.

Futhermore, because of their investigations, either charter or myself could be cleared. If zeek is town and TDC is scum, then zeeks investigation clears me. If TDC is town, and Zeek is scum, then TDC's investigation clears charter.

Alabaska, Korlash, and I will all have our sanities narrowed down to one after tonight, because we 've investigated TDC. I recommend that Tekk and Charter investigate the survivor of the TDC/Zeek battle, as that will confirm your sanities. We should wake up tomorrow knowing who is sane, paranoid, insane, naive. We might have another investigation that has found scum, and we might have another 1 to 1 battle.

In the meantime I'm going to do a reread. I want to see if I can connect clammy to either of these guys, or see anything else in Day 1 or 2 that might give some indication as to which of them is scum.

[Farkshinsoup]

Still re-reading. Let's be careful with our votes, it's 4 to lynch, and there's another scum out there, so let's not put anyone at L-1 to quickly. We have two weeks to sort this out, no reason to rush.

Gah, reread clammy's posts. Unfortunately the only interaction he's had with either of TDC or Zeek is for voting Zeek yesterday. I'm willing to believe he would vote for a townie over his scumbuddy, so

vote TDC

So you no longer suspect Zeek? All of the arguments you made against him are out the window because you think that clammy wasn't bussing?

[Farkshinsoup]

Question. Don't we have to lynch both of them regardless of if the first one we lynch is town or scum? If the first one is town, we know the other is scum, but if the first is scum, isn't it entirely possible that the other is too? I suppose if another person got a confirmed townie on one of them, that would clear one of them (unless that person too is scum).

If we lynch scum today and the one we leave alive is still alive tomorrow, then yes, we will have to decide if he is, in fact, also scum. But that's tomorrow.

[Farkshinsoup]

Alabaska, Korlash, and I will all have our sanities narrowed down to one after tonight, because we 've investigated TDC. I recommend that Tekk and Charter investigate the survivor of the TDC/Zeek battle, as that will confirm your sanities. We should wake up tomorrow knowing who is sane, paranoid, insane, naive. We might have another investigation that has found scum, and we might have another 1 to 1 battle.

Tekk and Charter, could you let me know if you agree with this plan? Also, if I'm correct, Alabaska has not been investigated by anyone, so Korlash, you or I (or both) should investigate him. It might depend on which one of us ends up as a useful cop. If I'm missing something let me know. This damn game keeps giving me a headache. I wish RR was still alive. He had a knack for this, I think.

[Farkshinsoup]

If we lynch scum, the other one is town, and I investigate I still won't know if I'm sane of naive. That said, we'd have lynched scum so all in all it wouldn't be a failure.

Right, sorry, if we lynch scum, then you can't confirm your sanity by investigating the one left alive. My bad.

Tekk, can I ask you why you are voting for Zeek instead of TDC? Alabaska, which way are you leaning?

[Farkshinsoup]

Also, my sanity is not confirmed tonight. If Zeek is lynched and comes up scum, then I could be either naive or sane still, I believe.

Ok so I'm not crazy... Fark whats the deal here man?

The deal is that I was just very, very wrong. Sorry. I forgot that we all need to investigate a known guilty result in order to narrow our sanities down to 1. I told you guys this game gives me a headache.

I was going to do a whole big post with quotes from Day 1 to make a case against Zeek, but it hardly seems necessary. If anyone aside from Zeek wants me too, then I will. Otherwise we should just discuss what we are going to do tomorrow. Seems like we should all just investigate whoever we find scummiest.

I would like to hear from Zeek again, and I'd like a claim order list from him just in case we've all got this wrong.

[Farkshinsoup]

simulpost. Charter, investigating TDC will only help to confirm your sanity if he is scum. If Zeek is scum when we lynch him, I suppose it could be possible, but it seems like TDC would most likely be town.

[Farkshinsoup]

Let's give zeek a chance to respond. We have plenty of time. If he wants to convince us that he is pro-town, he'll give us the claim list. If he doesn't come back, then we know he's scum, and we can lynch with impunity.

If Zeek is town, I'll investigate Alabaska.
If Zeek is scum, I'll investigate Tekk.

[Farkshinsoup]

If Zeek is scum then we have no claim order for tomorrow, I suppose we could just do it by whoever happens to post first.

If zeek is scum, we'll use TDC's latest claim order list:

Korlash
Tekk
Fark
Alabaska
charter

I'd also like to hear more from TDC if he has anything to say.

[Farkshinsoup]

I don't think the claim list is necessary, because if you are both scum then that means the rest of us are town. Since the claim list is designed to keep scum from claiming last, it would be unnecessary. Charter can give you an investigation target, though.

Since we're waiting for Zeek anyways, I'll post this quote from Day 1:

And basically, in summary, what I think we should do:

-We should lynch Tekk today (so Fark, clammy, and Korlash can try to determine their usefulness with Night 1 investigations)

-Everyone investigate Skruffs tonight (except drool, he already investigated Skruffs)

-Lynch Skruffs tomorrow to confirm numerous player's usefulness

-Catch the rest of the scum on Night 2 thanks to all of the useful cops knowing they are useful

This was the connection that I saw between Zeek and clammy. Zeek spent all of day 1 wanting to lynch tekk to confirm sanities. One of the sanities that would have been confirmed was clammy's. Many other players thought that I was the better lynch because I appeared scummier, but Zeek never waivered. He also found Skruffs very scummy, but never voted him (oh sorry, he voted him in post 107 and then unvotes him and votes Tekk in the same post. ).

If we had followed zeek's plan above, we would have lynched Tekk (sorry tekk, not sure yet if you are town yet), confirmed clammy's fake sanity, and then come back the next day and lynched Skruffs. We'd have been in bad shape. Soon after, Aimless claimed as the retired cop, and because Zeek had come out loudly for the "investigate to confirm sanities" plan, he had to go along with it.

Also, just before the deadline on Day 1 you posted this to Skruffs:

I would hammer you (oh how I'd love to do that too Razz) but some people said they want to wait for Aimless, so I'll respect that wish.

On Day 1, you held off with the hammer so that we could get some more info. Why then did you hammer clammy so fast yesterday, when it was clear that we had other things to discuss?

TDC, question for you:

Despite the recent deadline extension: That's not much time we have left, so I think it would be wise to talk about who we're going to lynch for a change.

The current deadline lynch would be Tekk, and I don't agree with that.
My Fark vote is not doing all that much at the moment, so I'll

unvote, vote Skruffs

.

As for tomorrow: We're not going to come to a decision regarding the who investigates who, apparently, but I agree that we should claim the results, and that we should claim them in Aimless' order (and Aimless is of course invited to revise that order before the deadline).

This vote tipped the scales for a Skruffs lynch. You put this vote on, and then you never posted again until Day 2. Can you explain why you decided to lynch Skruffs?

[Farkshinsoup]

Not sure what you mean with "tipped the scales" - it put him on just 3 votes. I'm hardly responsible for your and Alabaska's votes that followed.

What I meant was when you voted, Skruffs and Tekk were tied at 2 votes each, but because Tekk had reached 2 votes first, he would have been the one lynched at deadline. By voting Skruffs, you changed that. As you point out, I put a vote on him after that, and I had my own reasons for that vote.

Anyways, this makes sense, you had previously said earlier in the day that you would be okay with a Skruffs lynch. And clearly, there were some townies that voted Skruffs, you may have been one of them. Right now, I find it far scummier that Zeek called for Skruffs lynch all of Day 1 but never voted him.

I really hope you aren't scum, because if you are, you didn't make any mistakes that I can see.

[Farkshinsoup]

I don't know if TDC's list is the best thing to go by. We don't know he's town. I have no problem claiming first, last, whenever, but I don't know if it's wise to let TDC (an unconfirmed townie) decide the reveal order.

We'll only use his list if he is NK'd. If not, then we'll just shout 'em out. Do the rest of you agree with this plan?

[Farkshinsoup]

Yes! 2 scum in a row.

I'm requoting these, I've rearranged the order to help us group things. Well, it helps me, anyways.

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; RR | Innocent
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent; TDC | Innocent
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; TCD | Innocent
Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty
Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty; TDC | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty; Korlash | Guilty; RR | Guilty
TDC -> Zeek | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; charter | Guilty
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Naive, Scum
Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Naive, Scum

Raging Rabbit: Sane, Naive

Aimless: Sane, Paranoid

Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid, Scum

TDC: Insane

Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid

ZeekLTK: Scum

Clammy: Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

Well, Alabaska jumped the cue, but whatever. Just like to point out, while we're waiting for Tekk, that charter is confirmed town because of TDC's investigation, so we can change that on the form.

[Farkshinsoup]

simulpost w charter. I'll wait for Tekk.

[Farkshinsoup]

Fixed for Charter's results:

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; RR | Innocent
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent; TDC | Innocent; Tekk | Innocent
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; TCD | Innocent; Fark | Innocent

Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty

Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty; TDC | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty; Korlash | Guilty; RR | Guilty; Alabaska | Guilty

TDC -> Zeek | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; charter | Guilty
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Naive, Scum
Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Naive, Scum

Raging Rabbit: Sane, Naive

Aimless: Sane, Paranoid

Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid

TDC: Insane

Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid

ZeekLTK: Scum

Clammy: Scum

[Farkshinsoup]

Guilty on Tekk

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; RR | Innocent; charter | Innocent
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent; TDC | Innocent; Tekk | Innocent
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; TCD | Innocent; Fark | Innocent

Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty

Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty; TDC | Guilty; Tekk | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty; Korlash | Guilty; RR | Guilty; Alabaska | Guilty

TDC -> Zeek | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; charter | Guilty
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Naive, Scum
Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Naive, Scum

Raging Rabbit: Sane, Naive

Aimless: Sane, Paranoid

Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid

TDC: Insane

Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid

ZeekLTK: Scum

Clammy: Scum

So I a few things here from my point of view.

Because charter is cleared, and I know that I'm town, that means that the last remaining scum has to be either Alabaska, Korlash, or Tekk. I want to look over the results again, but right now, the only thing that I've been able to figure out is that Alabaska cannot be a sane cop, he has to be either naive or scum, because he has an innocent result on both Korlash and Tekk. Not sure how this helps though. Also, Aimless was a sane cop, not paranoid. Of course, all of this only helps me, because it's all process of elimination based on knowledge that only I can confirm.

I'm inclined to put Tekk in the town category because both Zeek and clammy were gunning for his lynch on Day 1. Not necessarily cleared, but I have to make a decision somehow.

That leaves Alabaska and Korlash. Right now, I'm leaning towards Alabaska.

FoS Alabaska.

He replaced dRool, who I found quite scummy, and the way he jumped on the clammy wagon is rubbing me the wrong way. I'll do a reread on all 3 and try to put together some arguments.

It's still possible that we have a useful cop in this group, I'd like charter to think about if there's some way we can all investigate each other tonight to help clear someone.

[Farkshinsoup]

I know that I am town. Korlash got an inno on Tekk and Fark, so he is the other naive if what Fark says is true. Assuming Fark and I are town, I am naive, Korlash is naive, Tekk is sane, TDC was insane, Aimless was sane, and RR was apparently fakeclaiming. Question: Why is Aimless sane? If Aimless is sane, then Fark must be scum, or else the cops do not work out. I might be missing something, but couldn't Aimless have been paranoid?

It's not really a joke, per se. It is me saying that, if what Fark says is true, then RR must have been fakeclaiming. I know he was not fakeclaiming, so either Fark isn't town or he is incorrect about Aimless being Sane. I want to hear back from Fark to clarify whether I should be voting him or whether Aimless was paranoid.

I hesitate to go into all this, because as I've already pointed out, it's stuff that I've been able to narrow down based on something that I cannot prove to anyone else in the game: the fact that I'm town. But you've asked me about it, so here goes.

To follow along, assume that I am town. We all know some things here: charter is insane/paranoid, as is Skruffs. TDC is insane. That means there can only be one more insane/paranoid - me. charter, skruffs, TDC, and me are the 4 insane/paranoids in the game.

That means that Aimless, by process of elimination, is sane instead of paranoid.

Since RR was sane/naive, it follows that one of the 3 of you are lying.

Since one of you are scum, I know for a fact that you, Alabaska, have to be either naive or scum, because your investigations have found the other 2 guys innocent. If you were a sane cop, you would have found either Tekk or Korlash guilty. Since you didn't, either you are naive, or lying about your investigations.

I realize this does not really help anyone but me, as it stems from an unverifiable premise, namely, that I am town.

[Farkshinsoup]

Korlash got an inno on Tekk and Fark, so he is the other naive if what Fark says is true. Assuming Fark and I are town, I am naive, Korlash is naive, Tekk is sane, TDC was insane, Aimless was sane, and RR was apparently fakeclaiming.

How is it that you can know that any of the 3 of you are one or the other, sane or naive? What am I missing here?

[Farkshinsoup]

I don't think you can pin anything on drool. I'm in another game he was in, and he was as useless as in this one.

He did post this:

Fark, however, comes off very scummy to me. I'm not particularly familiar with the game, but he seems to be someone who is scum. This may be a result of being new to the game of Mafia, but Fark appears to be scummy.

This was after Aimless had made a case against me and had voted me. It seemed like jumping on the bandwagon. As soon as I challenged him, he unvoted me. After that, he flaked and Alabaska replaced him.

So yeah, maybe he was a newbie that was in over his head, but that pinged my scumdar on Day 1 and I haven't forgotten about it.

Then there's this from Day 2:

Zeek is erratic but more convincing, TDC is reasonable but seems more scummy.

Let's get back to RR's plan, it makes a lot of sense. We all know now that either TDC or Zeek is scum, so fine, let's move on. We can lynch you guys later.

Charter, it's clear that you think zeek is scum, you've been saying it from the moment you replaced in. I'd prefer, since you are 1 of the 3 members of this circle of suspicion, for you to comment on that.

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this site. Congrats on being so logical, Fark.

vote: Clammy

.

This seemed like he was jumping on the bandwagon and trying to flatter me in the same breath. At the time, I thought that the compliment seemed over the top.

[Farkshinsoup]

I am naive because of your reasons; Korlash is naive because he got an inno on Tekk and you, and if he is a cop and I am a cop then he is Naive for the same reason I am; Tekk therefore must be sane because the two naives are taken; we know TDC was insane; we know Aimless was insane by your reasoning; RR is either sane or naive but all of those slots are taken up.

Headache time again. The problem with this , and the reason it is hard to follow, is that you are assuming that I am town and that you are town. You claim to know that you are town. I can't know this. Nor can you know that I am town.

So why are you assuming that I am town?

You shouldn't be taking my town status for granted. At this point the only way you could know that I am town is if you are scum.

Am I thinking about this right, Tekk is also confirmed town? Everyone but me has investigated him and got the same result as a confirmed townie.

Tekk is not cleared because it is possible that the 4 useful cops were TDC, Aimless, Skruffs, and RR. None of them investigated Tekk.

hmm... well... if aims and RR were both sane, and Skruffs and TCD were both paranoid... then wouldnt all cops left be useless and thus noone can clear anyone?

QFT

I'd like to hear what Tekk has to say about things. We should take our time with this, because right now we have the advantage, tomorrow if we lynch wrong we'll be in LYLO.

[Farkshinsoup]

charter, before you vote, can you try to come up with an investigation plan for us?

[Farkshinsoup]

Vote: Alabaska J

Don't we still need one more vote? Korlash unvoted in post 648. So he only has 2 votes on him, mine and Tekk's. He's still only at L-1 with my vote.

charter, since it's your scum day I'll let you do the honours. If we're right, it will win us the game.

[Farkshinsoup]

I think Sensfan is V/LA until Wednesday, he has Pie_is_good listed as back up mod, so hopefully, someone will take us to night, or end the game as the case may be.

Of course, Alabaska could help us out next time he checks in...

[Farkshinsoup]

I'm here.

Vote: Korlash

Zeek and clammy got caught in the net, but Korlash has managed to fly under the radar for the whole game. He's been engaged, but never leading, and never seeming to follow. It's pretty excellent scum play actually.

Give me a little time, I want to do a full reread of Korlash's posts, and put something together for you, charter. I should have something by this time tomorrow.

[Farkshinsoup]

Forgot to mention my result, not that it does any good. I investigated Korlash, and I got a guilty. So I am a paranoid cop. It seems that so are you, charter.

charter, since I didn't NK Tekk last night I can only tell you why I think Korlash did it.

Tekk -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; RR | Innocent; charter | Innocent
Alabaska J -> Skruffs | Innocent; Korlash | Innocent; TDC | Innocent; Tekk | Innocent
Korlash -> Tekk | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent; TCD | Innocent; Fark | Innocent

Raging Rabbit -> Fark | Innocent; Aimless | Innocent
Aimless -> clammy | Guilty

Farkshinsoup -> Jenter | Guilty; Raging Rabbit | Guilty; TDC | Guilty; Tekk | Guilty
charter -> Aimless | Guilty; Korlash | Guilty; RR | Guilty; Alabaska | Guilty

TDC -> Zeek | Innocent; Aimless | Guilty; charter | Guilty
Skruffs -> Aimless | Guilty

Tekkactus: Sane, Naive, Scum
Alabaska J: Sane, Naive, Scum
Korlash: Sane, Naive, Scum

Raging Rabbit: Sane, Naive

Aimless: Sane, Paranoid

Fark: Insane, Paranoid, Scum
Charter: Insane, Paranoid

TDC: Insane

Skruffs: Insane, Paranoid

ZeekLTK: Scum

Clammy: Scum

This was the sanities chart as of yesterday. Korlash would have looked at this last night and known that you were a paranoid cop. (actually, he would have known that both you and Alabaska were useless cops from the beginning of Day 3 - I'll have to look back and see if his posts reflect that in any way) If he had killed you, then he would have had 2 people investigating him whose sanities he could not be sure of.

If Tekk had turned out to be a sane cop, that would have been game over. Tekk's investigation would have simultaneously implicated Korlash and cleared me. Better to keep you alive, because on the off chance I had come up with an innocent on him, he could just say I was lying scum - same situation we're in right now. And he knew that your investigation was useless, and wouldn't clear me.

And of course, that's why he didn't NK me last night, no way he was going to win in a showdown between him and Tekk, especially if Tekk's investigation confirmed him as scum.

[Farkshinsoup]

I know, but since I now know that Korlash is scum, and you investigated him on N2 and got guilty, as well as guilty on Aimless and other confirmed townies, that means that you are paranoid. So you got a guilty on me last night.

[Farkshinsoup]

Wait, that also means that if I had been scum, I would not have known your sanity up to today. But I would have known that both Korlash and Tekk were naive cops, and they would not have gotten useful results, no matter who they investigated.

Since you were going to investigate me last nght, it would have been risky for me to let you live.

charter, Tekks NK only makes sense for Korlash. If I had been scum I would have had to kill you last night, in case your investigation blew my cover.

[Farkshinsoup]

simulpost.

WHAT?!!

That is not possible.

[Farkshinsoup]

There must be some mistake. Can you pm the mod and ask him to confirm the result? Because if you are town, and we know you are, then Korlash has to be scum, and you CANNOT have gotten that result on me.

[Farkshinsoup]

Wait, why haven't you voted me yet? If you got that result, why would you go through all of this. You would have just voted for me.

You're lying.

[Farkshinsoup]

Thanks for the heart attack.

[Farkshinsoup]

charter, in the meantime I'm going to start my reread of Korlash's posts. Instead of one big post I'll just post quotes and thoughts as I see them. If you have any other questions, ask, and I'll answer.

[Farkshinsoup]

Personally I was under the opinion knowing the alignment of my target was important so obviously I would rather see Tekk lynched. However i'm not exactly an excpert at this sort of game.

Korlash made a lot of these, "aw shucks, I don't understand these complicated game mechanics" type posts on Day 1. He claimed that he wasn't posting much and wasn't engaged with the game because of all the arguing about what our investigative plan should be. But look at the post he made right after this one:

Sanities won't be revaled in this method, though, since not enough people will know whether their investigation was true or false, and all the cross information in the world isn't gonna help any when hardly anyone knows if their results even mean anything.

not true, lets say I investigated someone who came up guilty tonight. tomorrow if we lynch either tekk or that person for any reason, my sanity becomes fairly clear. Now put this on a wide scale, everyone gets two people who they are basing their sanities off of. We minus the doubles, two innocents two guilties, and we get a hanful of people we can lynch to help prove other's sanities.

Now this is where Skruff's words of wisdom come into play. we then scum hunt amoung them to lynch the right one. And bam, we hit possible scum and help clear 1-2-3 (possibly *crosses fingers*) sanity issues.

And as days go on, more and more possibilities open up. "Double" investigations start turning up new info and lynches/nks help determine them. In theory I would rather have every person have 2 investigations tomorrow, then two people to have 5 each.

Of course a lot of things can go wrong with this. and there is no way everyone will have 2 investigations tomorrow... well... highly unlikely at least...

your problem is your trying to prove many people at once. (I think) Which has just as high a sucess rate as catching a fish with a ball of yarn. Bait is the issue isn't it... ;P

But I think spreading them out is a sure fire way to get "at least 1" cleared up tomorrow with an exponetial number more after that. And, once we have one sanity known, you can expect 1-2 people to be cleared or outed. So out list of scum boils down lower and lower. sanities is not an issue really. 1 or 2 yes, but we don't need everybodies. If I am proven sane, isn't Tekk proven town? Think about it and you'll see that a wide spread pattern combined with good ol' fashioned scum hunting is the best play.

I think that Korlash has a very good grasp of exactly how this game works, but he portrayed himself as not getting it, just a simple ol' townie.

[Farkshinsoup]

Aimless was onto Korlash with this:

You claimed to not really be one planning and game theory discussions and whatnot, and argue against them as an obstacle to scum hunting. Okay, that's fine; I'm tempted to believe you on that point. However, it is also an argument against the town going into those kinds of discussions - thus, it is an argument that one could arrive at from scum motivations. Additionally, by making the argument, you are giving yourself a cover for having mostly stayed silent so far this game - again, feasibly scummy. Lastly, it's one of those many statements that sounds good but doesn't really help the town.

So, it doesn't really matter that you aren't me; scum tend to have one set of motivations, town another. I find your argument to be compatible with scum motivations. This is not to say that it's incompatible with town motivations, or that I find your behavior totally scummy, but it is enough to make me suspicious of you.

QFT

[Farkshinsoup]

Yeah, it's true, but I will point out that Aimless was starting to change his mind about me near the end of the day. He also helped lynch Skruffs (as did I) so he wasn't perfect, but I think that his suspicions of Korlash were dead on.

I had 2 bad pieces of luck on Day 1. One, from my inexperience, was to come out against the mass claim. I'd only played in 1 newbie game on the site, and I did not really understand that this was the best play in an open set up. But if you read back, you'll see that all I really wanted was for us all to discuss it and agree as a group on a course of action. You'll notice that both clammy and Korlash never even questioned that we should claim, they just went right along with the tide, and Zeek was one of the first people to FoS me.

The 2nd piece of bad luck was my investigation of Jenter, and that was just bad luck. Together, off the top of Day 1, it's no wonder that I drew a lot of suspicion.

[Farkshinsoup]

WHOA! So we did it then?

Yes, and again: Fark was freaking

confirmed town

since yesterday.

Sorry about that TDC. Can't believe that I missed that. My long, long headache is finally over.

[Farkshinsoup]

Off the top, I have to give shout outs to my fellow townies.

Aimless, whose sacrifice as the retired cop was instrumental in us winning. I look forward to hearing from Zeek on this, but I feel that after Zeek came out in favour of the "investigate one player, then lynch him for sanities" plan, Aimless's move really backed him into a corner. Both Zeek and clammy's lynches stemmed from that play. Sorry I made that "follower" crack. I let my emotions get the better of me.

Raging Rabbit. He had a great grasp on the mechanics of the game, and he instantly saw that clammy was the Day 2 lynch. Also, despite getting into a huge row with me on Day 1, he kept an open mind. No hard feelings, I hope.

TDC, very logical, every post he made was intelligent and well thought out. He made the choice between him and Zeek really easy, and also, obviously also had a good understanding of the game mechanics. Watching us miss that confirmation of me must have been torture.

Alabaska, sorry I thought you were scum. In retrospect, I'd like to thank you for that comment you made about me on Day 2.

Skruffs, again sorry I thought you were scum. I'm especially sorry that we lynched you because I think that you were the other insane cop.

Tekk, good game, I had a townie read from you from Day 1, and you were onto Zeek on Day 1 as well. Should have listened to you and charter.

Last but not least, charter. Great game, dude. You replaced in, and you had Zeek's number from your very first post. You really went after him. As you know, I still thought he was a townie at that point. After you were confirmed town, you kept your cool and we won the game because of you.

Also, good work scum. Tekk had me fooled until the investigations came out on Day 2 - even then I wasn't sure if it was him or TDC. Clammy I was kind of suspicious of, but again, until RR's posts on Day 2 you weren't my top lynch candidate. Korlash, excellent work. I think that you did an amazing job and almost won it considering the disadvantages you had.

Thanks Sensfan for such a fun game.

I had a lot of fun with this game. Learned a lot, too. This is the first game I've made it to the end, although I have a feeling that the reason that I was kept around for so long is that I was the most suspicious and the least threatening townie of them all.

This also the first non-newbie game I've finished, so I'd be happy to hear any and all critiques of my play.

[Farkshinsoup]

Thinking back, it's kind of hard to believe that none of the scum ended up voting for me as the Day 1 lynch. I had Aimless and RR convinced I was scum, TDC thought so, too and voted me, and I, like Tekk, had 2 investigations on me. You could have voted me without even having to make a case that I was scum, and it wouldn't have looked that suspicious.

[Farkshinsoup]

Also, I don't want to bring it up again, but I think we should have gone with skruffs plan and not all investigate Aimless, because look what happened, only ONE scum got investigated N0.

I disagree. We lynched scum on Day 2 and 3 based on that plan. There was almost no scum hunting involved, just results from the investigations. (well, the TDC/zeek day was a judgement call between the 2, but it wasn't all that hard). And if you or I had figured out that I was a confirmed townie, lynching Korlash would have been a no brainer. It's hard to argue with those kinds of results.

[Farkshinsoup]

More importantly, Since we have 6 people (including Skruffs) who claimed insane/paranoid and only 4 actually are, we know the following:

1. Either Zeek or TDC is scum.
2. At least one of clammy, Fark and charter is scum.
3. If Aimless was sane, clammy is scum. If he was insane or paranoid, two of the above three are scum and everyone else is town.
4. Whatever the answer is, clammy is an excellent lynch since there's an 83% chance that he's scum (1/2 - 100%, 1/2 - 66%).

I'm starting to think that we should give the TDC-Zeek thing a rest for today and lynch clammy. Whichever one of the two is the real cop, we get an extra useful result tommorow since the mafia wouldn't want to NK him, and we could potentially confirm either using additional investigations, should we decide to use them on Zeek and TDC. (If clammy turns out town (unlikely), we'll know that one of charter and Fark is scum and could figure out which using additional investigations.)

Correction - If clammy is innocent, both Fark and charter have to be scum since it means that Aimless was insane/paranoid as well and we therefore have 7 people claiming insane/paranoid, only 4 of which are, so 3 out of:

clammy
Skruffs
Aimless
Fark
charter
Zeek
TDC

are scum, and since the first 3 will be dead and innocent, the scum team will be proven as charter, Fark and either Zeek or TDC, and additional investigations will allow us to figure this out. Everyone else will be confirmed innocent.

So basically, by lynching clammy we either:
1) lynch scum and get additional results from Zeek and TDC, and also additional info from potential investigations on them. (83%)
2) Catch 2 scum, and by the time we lynch both additional investigations should allow us to figure which of Zeek and TDC is the 3rd. (17%)

Vote clammy.

This was the best post in the game IMO.

[Farkshinsoup]

Ok, second best.

[Farkshinsoup]

Last but not least, charter. Great game, dude. You replaced in, and you had Zeek's number from your very first post. You really went after him. As you know, I still thought he was a townie at that point. After you were confirmed town, you kept your cool and we won the game because of you.

Also that's BS.

Charter "had my number" because he didn't read the game correctly. He thought I opposed the claim order (which would be scummy) when I never did and because of this he thought I was scum. I would have made that comment about how bad his plan was regardless of my alignment, so the fact that he read it wrong and went bullheaded at me is just luck that I turned out to be scum.

Also he attacked me for my plan, which was identical to what RR and Aimless were both arguing for at the time, so again he was just lucky and had no good reason to assume I was scum since I was fighting for the same thing 2 other townies were fighting for.

This is the first post he made after his initial re-read.

Next is Zeek. I can't get over his "How do we hunt scum if we don't know our sanities" statement. To me this seems like he just wants us to know our sanities, which even if some of us knew our sanities they still have to convince those that don't who to vote for. Knowing our sanities in no way automatically means we will win or only lynch scum. Example, we can't ignore the possibility that Jenter, Day 1 lynch, and N1 kill are 3 of the 4 useful cops. What then? We would have 3 scum pretending to be useful cops and only 1 real useful cop. Unlikely that we'd listen to 1 against 3. Granted this is extreme, but even if there's 2 real cops vs 2 scum, it still could be difficult to figure out which group is lying if we're in LYLO.

Some other stuff... etc, etc...

I personally want to lynch Zeek, because I find him scummy and it might help TDC find his sanity (assuming he needs to). I would want RR, but no one investigated him unfortunately.

vote: Zeek

No mention of you opposing the claim order. He only got into that later. Give credit where credit's due.

[Farkshinsoup]

Sorry charter, but that wasn't even the funniest post by Skruffs. This was:

The amount of time spent confirming, HOPEFULLY, one or two of the players that CAN be confirmed as sane or insane, results in teh mafia getting two kills, putting the rest of us at LYLO. At that point, all one scum has to do is pretend to be confirmed and get a guilty on another player, and it's game over.

Skruffs, again and again you keep pretending like my plan would cause us to misslynch twice and end up at LYLO, which as I explained numerous times is untrue. You're so caught up in your own arguments you haven't yet stopped to consider any of the counter-arguments or look at the facts, and are just repeating yourself endlessly in slightly different phrasings. I find it ironic you attacked me earlier for trying to scare the town, since this is exactly what you've been doing for a very long time now.

Okay, meaningless appeals to emotion aside, you are insinuating that players should not use their investigative roles to catch scum, and that the lynches should be based solely on the idea that the investigative roles already HAVE caught scum. You are saying that I am trying to "Scare the town".

BOOGEDY BOOGEDY BOOGEDY TOWN!!!

YES IT IS ME!!! I AM TRYING TO SCARE YOU! WITH THE IDEA OF THINKING FOR YOURSELVES!!!!

Fortunately you have Raging Rabbit and ZeekTLK, your "Shepherds" , to GUIDE y ou through this Horrible, HORRIBLE situation! You don't have to worry about finding scum! You don't have to worry about even who to investigate! Zeek and Raging RAbbit will make sure that NONE of you have to make ANY decisions for YOURSELVES, because they already have who you should vote for and investigate mapped out for the next two days!

Are you afraid of investigating scuma nd having to figure out your sanity,

ON YOUR OWN???

Don't cry little ones!! We can all target a confirmed townie, Aimless! Aimless won't hurt you, not like those SCARY MAFIAS will!


Little BobbySue: "My mommy told me that I choose to investigate someone OTHER than Aimless, that the BOOGEYMAN will come and give me a HYSTERECTOMY!"

Little Jimmy: "My cousin Joe thought that this ONE guy was scum, so HE investigated him, and he had TWO results and one was different than the other!!! HE couldn't figure out which one was right so he wound up shooting himself IN THE HEAD. I hope *I* never have to confirm my sanity independantly!"

Don't worry kids, you won't! Why, maybe if Raging Rabbit gets his way, we can ALL target Aimless tonight, and then we'll NEVER REVEAL OUR RESULTS to ANYONE. You won't even have to check your inbox to see what your result was, because Raging RAbbit thinks that would be BAD FOR THE TOWN. Information is DANGEROUS!!!

Things that make me ROFL: a picture of an embroidered ghost, the phrase, "Boogedy Boogedy Boogedy Town!!!", and the morality play at the end.

Soooooo Good!