California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[Gaspar]

1) Not really sure what you're getting at here.

2) If you're getting at the whole Thesp/Mason thing I brought up earlier, it's worth noting that I never had any reason to bring it up to begin with, but I went out of my way to explain why Thesp and Sens/Destr were so low on my list and why I was revising my opinion. I didn't know that leaving proper paper trails was a bad thing. If you're getting at my recent comment that Thesp looks "distinctly protown" to me (as I think I put it), that's not in any way based on a "partial read" of the game, and I'd like to know where you're coming from.

3) I think we're getting into nitpicking on this one, but I was referring to your initial posts against me. Yeah, I recently blundered on the "redirector" thing. Yeah, I forgot about your "somebody else put those three in there" theory. I generally hate using real-life as an excuse (which is primarily why I haven't brought it up until now), but I've been obscenely busy in the last month or so, and I have let ALL of my games on-site slip, and this is one that I'm trying to commit every spare second to, even though it's by far the most involved game I'm playing. I've missed some important things along the way. It's called being human. You can take it or leave it; I don't care. What I do see is you doing exactly what you did with OGML. You're taking a minor concession and trying to blow it up to make me look ridiculously obviously scummy.

4) Again, this is a one-sided, assume-the-worst-to-conclude-the-worst stance you present. I went after scum at the end of D1, plain and simple. I pushed a Faelynch. You say I was insincere, that I used Fae to distract from Niv. This leads to the argument that I'm scum, which supports your claim that I was insincre when going after Fae. Circular logic. I never "blamed somebody else" for pushing Fae at the end of Day One. I never "blamed someone else" for preferring MM over Niv either. I did support OGML, but I think I've made my reasons for that explicit, and you've not made it "pretty clear" that you didn't have a result. And yesterday, I preferred a lynch on you (likely scum) over Niv (scum); there's hardly anything shady in that. I don't "blame someone else" for wanting you dead either.

This is

exactly

the kind of manipulative, unfounded blanket statement that I'm sick of seeing come from you.

5) This is an interesting one, because you make an implicit concession that I'm genuinely trying to use meta to out you. Maybe my meta does suck and maybe it doesn't, but I'm glad you brought this up, because it shows that you know I'm trying to meta you, that I'm trying to figure out whether you're scum or not. I don't think you're as sold on GasparScum as you make yourself out to be.


(As ia sidenote, It's also interesting to note that I've already pointed out my tendencies towards thinking you're scum - yes I'm fully aware that I'm prone to disliking your play. You don't need to tell me twice.)

[MrBuddyLee]

5) This is an interesting one, because you make an implicit concession that I'm genuinely trying to use meta to out you. Maybe my meta does suck and maybe it doesn't, but I'm glad you brought this up, because it shows that you know I'm trying to meta you, that I'm trying to figure out whether you're scum or not. I don't think you're as sold on GasparScum as you make yourself out to be.

I'm wrong all the time as town, but I eventually get it right or get nightkilled. I've never voted wrong at lynch or lose because I take my time to get things right. It's possible you're trying to ascertain my alignment, like you did in a few other games we were in together. And it's possible you're doing the same thing you did when I nailed you and your scumpartner on D1 of Space Monkeys and you tried to lynch me unsuccessfully and then nightkilled me:

I do not expect people to attack me for behaving in a ridiculous manner. But if they do, I will continue to defend myself. I may complain about it (as I did earlier)... but I will still explain why my actions are not inconsistent with me being pro-town. I don't understand why you're telling Nightson that he should not be defending himself.

Actually, now that I look back at things, there's a serious misrepresentation that I can't let go unnoted.

Let's go back and look at what I said:

Strong FoS: MBL
Do you have a real reson for voting me? Or do you just plan on misrepresenting me and making up reasons to "suspect" me, hoping it'll stick somehow?

Same schtick from you. I was raising valid points and you hit me with these stupid little half-truths and technicalities that kept others off your back.

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Gaspar: 2 (curiouskarmadog, MrBuddyLee)
MrBuddyLee: 2 (Gaspar, vollkan)
vollkan: 2 (Thesp, Xtoxm)
Rogueben: 1 (MichelSableheart)

Current Condorcet Winner:

None. Current Smith Set: curiouskarmadog, destructor, Gaspar, MichelSableheart, MrBuddyLee, NabakovNabakov, Rogueben, Thesp, vollkan, Xtoxm

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

[vollkan]

Niv claimed redirected from Pooky to RB.

Ah.

In that case, my first thought would be to presume that he was just making a BS claim sound more plausible.

Off the top of my head, you went back to vollkan's D1 one post and bitched about some insignificant detail totally unrelated to scumhunting this game.

The specific insignificant detail he "bitched" over was my point about mistakes and meta.

@Vollkan: If you truly suspect MBL more than anybody else, give us more than you already have on the subject, cause all I have now is "MBL lynched OGML"

I do suspect him the most, but my lists were, as you yourself noted, not cases (by any stretch of the imagination).

I mostly liken his behavior on these two points to the way he treated CDB in Face-To-Face. He posted that he "spotted something very naughty" in CDB's posts. He repeatedly harped on how he had seen something and wanted everyone else to go look at it, but refused to explain what it was that he "saw." Later on, he went on to explain that he was trying to protect "Glork-Cop" by 'muddying the waters' and making a lot of noise. He is exactly right in that he made a lot of noise. CDB turning out scum is something he tried to use to champion himself (one-sided "I was accurate - Glork was busing!" assertions, for example). But while he concocted a theory that made sense when argued from his perspective, the objective onlooker (Glork, in the case of FTF) was able to see that he was merely setting up smokescreens, trying to confuse passersby.

Bravo on the meta find; it's a strong precedent.

[Thesp]

@anybody: Maybe I have missed something, but precisely what gives rise to the implication that there is a redirector here?

Then why aren't you using them to that end? You spend significant energy in interrogation-like posts and don't vote. You spend time on "scores" as if they're supposed to indicate you're actually more likely to lynch some people over others, then do nothing with them.

Thesp, I've gone through and given by opinion on everybody and a ranking. I am happy to vote, and shall do so based on my rankings. I don't have an objection to voting; it just doesn't strike me as a particularly important thing to do whilst I am still in a process of decision-making. I'm not the type to vote-hop.

Okay. Imagine there is an impending lynch coming up. It's quite important who gets lynched, as it's a crucial moment in the game. (Aren't they all?) Suppose there's a deadline coming up, and you may not be able to make the absolute best decision, but you can make a somewhat educated guess that's better than nothing. (And after all, if you're town, your vote can help tip against the informed minority which is far more likely to have a malicious vote out there.) Is it more important to make your best guess, or to look like you're not vote hopping?

Thesp wants vollkan dead next, misdirects from Gaspar's defense of Niv today

What do you mean by this? It's not at all clear to me.

I think Sable's claim is suspicious. I've never seen someone claim vanilla before and then try to imply they might have a power. Smelled like a weird attempt to shake his tails.

This is beyond absurd.

If you haven't seen it before, how do you know it's more likely to be from scum?

If you look at

how

he claimed, the confusion appeared genuine. You'd have to assert that he knew the appearance of confusion would make him look pro-town (and not elicit the same reactions you've given), and he effectively faked this confusion in an innovative way, which you haven't argued at all. Instead, you've said "different = bad", with no justification for doing so.

My preference is still with vollkan, but a MrBuddyLee lynch sure wouldn't make me cry.

[MichelSableheart]

I haven't had the time yet to read the Gaspar-MBL debate thoroughly. I did take a look at the Vollkan case though.

When looking into it, I found Xtoxm to be unhelpful. I can't consider a vote without further comments to be listing suspicions. The case against him by Thesp and Gaspar is mainly Vollkan's lack of contribution, especially at the end of day 3.

Rereading Vollkan, I must admit that his lack of contribution on relevant topics is extremely worrying. Day 1, he focusses on Niv, does not comment on either MM or FL. In post #255, he asks if there is an advantage to making a condorcet list, but in his next post (#285), he does make one, with MM second from the top, without having commented on MM whatsoever. This is worrying, coming from a player who has pressed the important of giving reasoning with your votes. Day 2, roughly the same story. His comments on OGML are minimal. During day 3, the players he comments on most are MBL (early in the day) and Xtoxm. So 3 hours for the deadline, he posts part of his promised scumdar... On CKD, Destructor and Gaspar, all players who are definately not contenders for the lynch. Sure, he worked in alphabetical order, but still. There's a lot more to the Vollkan case then I originally thought. As far as I can see, he hasn't been involved in serious discussion about a lynch yet.

[vollkan]

Okay. Imagine there is an impending lynch coming up. It's quite important who gets lynched, as it's a crucial moment in the game. (Aren't they all?) Suppose there's a deadline coming up, and you may not be able to make the absolute best decision, but you can make a somewhat educated guess that's better than nothing. (And after all, if you're town, your vote can help tip against the informed minority which is far more likely to have a malicious vote out there.) Is it more important to make your best guess, or to look like you're not vote hopping?

I think you need to differentiate between vote-hopping throughout the day, and voting at deadline. When I discussed vote-hopping, the context was in the sense of voting throughout the day (ie. your demand that I vote).

Obviously, it will usually be better for a player to vote on their best instinct at deadline, if nothing better affords itself (though, this will depend on the individual's ability etc.).

It's hopping votes around during the day that I see as pretty ineffectual. Sure, as a tool of pressure against inexperienced players, votes may be useful, but I see no intrinsic utility in having someone voting a player vs having someone declare that same player as their number one suspect.

[Gaspar]

5) This is an interesting one, because you make an implicit concession that I'm genuinely trying to use meta to out you. Maybe my meta does suck and maybe it doesn't, but I'm glad you brought this up, because it shows that you know I'm trying to meta you, that I'm trying to figure out whether you're scum or not. I don't think you're as sold on GasparScum as you make yourself out to be.

I'm wrong all the time as town, but I eventually get it right or get nightkilled. I've never voted wrong at lynch or lose because I take my time to get things right. It's possible you're trying to ascertain my alignment, like you did in a few other games we were in together. And it's possible you're doing the same thing you did when I nailed you and your scumpartner on D1 of Space Monkeys and you tried to lynch me unsuccessfully and then nightkilled me:

I do not expect people to attack me for behaving in a ridiculous manner. But if they do, I will continue to defend myself. I may complain about it (as I did earlier)... but I will still explain why my actions are not inconsistent with me being pro-town. I don't understand why you're telling Nightson that he should not be defending himself.

Actually, now that I look back at things, there's a serious misrepresentation that I can't let go unnoted.

Let's go back and look at what I said:

Strong FoS: MBL
Do you have a real reson for voting me? Or do you just plan on misrepresenting me and making up reasons to "suspect" me, hoping it'll stick somehow?

Same schtick from you. I was raising valid points and you hit me with these stupid little half-truths and technicalities that kept others off your back.

Minor detail: The time I was scum (Space Monkey), I never tried to meta you.

Glork's posts in Space Monkey. Go ahead. Search for "face" and "FTF" through the entire thing. No reference/meta whatsoever.

Me trying to meta you -> Me trying to see if you're scum -> Me being protown. Admit it. We both know it's true.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: And if you want a basis of comparison for this:

I'm wrong all the time as town, but I eventually get it right or get nightkilled. I've never voted wrong at lynch or lose because I take my time to get things right.

Save Lights Out 2, where I was lynched in spite of naming three scumbags D2, the same thing happens to me. I've never been wrong in LyLo either. You seem to be making no point whatsoever other than trying to establish cred while trying to discredit me.

What do you mean by this? It's not at all clear to me.

He's accusing you of being shady for not automatically accepting his claims that I'm suspicious for defending Niv. Instead, you talk about something else, mention that I'm protown, and suddenly you're "deflecting." That's just how MrScumbuddyLee operates.

[Thesp]

Okay. Imagine there is an impending lynch coming up. It's quite important who gets lynched, as it's a crucial moment in the game. (Aren't they all?) Suppose there's a deadline coming up, and you may not be able to make the absolute best decision, but you can make a somewhat educated guess that's better than nothing. (And after all, if you're town, your vote can help tip against the informed minority which is far more likely to have a malicious vote out there.) Is it more important to make your best guess, or to look like you're not vote hopping?

I think you need to differentiate between vote-hopping throughout the day, and voting at deadline. When I discussed vote-hopping, the context was in the sense of voting throughout the day (ie. your demand that I vote).

My apologies - I thought you saying "I am happy to vote, and shall do so based on my rankings. I don't have an objection to voting; it just doesn't strike me as a particularly important thing to do whilst I am still in a process of decision-making" was somehow directly related to your failure/refusal to vote yesterday (or discuss anything useful) at a crucial moment in the impending Niv deadline lynch. See, that was the context of "I'm not the type to vote-hop", so perhaps you can see why I might get confused. So let's try again,

why didn't you take your best guess yesterday, even if it wasn't your perfect guess

(especially given:

Obviously, it will usually be better for a player to vote on their best instinct at deadline, if nothing better affords itself (though, this will depend on the individual's ability etc.).

)?

What do you mean by this? It's not at all clear to me.

He's accusing you of being shady for not automatically accepting his claims that I'm suspicious for defending Niv. Instead, you talk about something else, mention that I'm protown, and suddenly you're "deflecting." That's just how MrScumbuddyLee operates.

You've got to be kidding. Really? Wow.

[Gaspar]

Well, it'd be fairer to hear his side of the story, but yeah. That's what it looks like to me.



I like your point about Voll, though.

[vollkan]

I didn't take my "best guess" yesterday (in or before my last post yesterday) because, as I have said already, my intention was to do a proper review. I don't like voting without having the numbers down, and I acted on the assumption that I would get round to doing so. That is something I did not do.

[Gaspar]

Why don't you believe in placeholder votes? Why not "I'll stick my vote on X for now, but I plan on re-assessing the playerlist after an extensive re-read" or something of the sort?

[MrBuddyLee]

He's accusing you of being shady for not automatically accepting his claims that I'm suspicious for defending Niv. Instead, you talk about something else, mention that I'm protown, and suddenly you're "deflecting." That's just how MrScumbuddyLee operates.

I'm so done with this BS. You keep redirecting to the Niv thing. Sure, you could have just made a bad read on Niv. I've done that as town.

The things I find really scummy about you are more about your carelessness/recklessness re: alignments in general. The mason thing. I read all your Thesp posts. The timeline and your suspicions don't add up. The vollkan thing--attacking him on D3 primarily for a theory post from early D1. Attacking NabNab for attacking me, when he was also the first to defend me, I believe. Being inconsistent on your redirector beliefs. The list goes on, seriously.

I have genuine concern that you are just having fun inventing suspicions and beliefs and are not dotting your Is nor crossing your Ts. It's something scum do. And worse, when I point it out, you resort to propaganda and pretend that I am imagining things. It's beyond annoying, and it leads me to believe you may very well be scum.

And you know damned well there's a game you metaed me to death in that we can't discuss further.

[destructor]

I feel like saying, for the record, that this whole Gaspar-MBL epic is starting to feel like a huge distraction. I'm noticing how quiet everyone has become about other topics and can only think scum are sitting back and

letting

it continue. I say this without meaning to sound rich. I realise I'm not sparking more discussion myself, but I have let you know that I'm still finishing my read. Why is everyone else so silent?

What happened to the Rogueben pressure? And Nab? Or was I imagining that others besides myself had been suspicious of them at the start of the day?

Anyway, on with the read...

---

528, Thesp says he wants Michel dead. I can't remember why. He votes for MBL, but makes no mention of the case he made on OGML. I assume this means Thesp believed OGML was more likely town than MBL. I also notice he's put LoudmouthLee (me) below and OGML above {People}. Thesp, why was I so low on that condorcet, even below OGML? That seems to imply that you were leaning town on Sens/LML, but even I'd admit that there'd been little to indicate a pro-town alignment from either of them at that point.

Reading this, it almose makes me feel thay you are scum for some strange eason, bt i just cant put my finger on it. it may be nothing. but it does irk me a little bit the wrong way

This was in response to ckd's 515, which I mentioned in my last post. It's pissweak, vague and confusing. I did allude to the fact that I was considering that ckd was overplaying his ignorance to the nature of SCAPE as a scumgroup - that is, that maybe he knew it was from the start of Day 2. If I'm going to continue along that line of reasoning, this looks like distancing to me.

Post 531 from Rogueben doesn't help paint him in a more protown light. His vote seems like a combination of OMGUS and jumping behind MBL's case. I think it come across as opportunistic. To be honest, I can't remember exactly why I felt suspicious of him besides 'vibes' from my earlier read, but I'm definitely going to be rereading Rogueben once I finish this.

---

A side note as it comes to me: a few experiences with game I've had lately lead me to think that setup speculation, for the most part, is totally anti-town. I used it myself as scum in Mini 545 to try to throw the town off and in my recently finished Mini 568 it was almost setup speculation alone, fuelled on in the wrong direction by scum, which lost the game for the town. In light of this, I find MBL's whole basement theories to be downright scummy because of the confusion they will undoubtedly cause if dwelled on. I'm also unsure of why Michel has decided that it's a reasonable assumption that the Nibbler Twin's death can be attributed to SCAPE. Why even bring this up?

---

MBL post in 532 without answering Thesp's question. Sloppy? Or was his ignoring it?

I also believe it's not a good idea to lynch OGML today. It's extremely improbable that he and CKD are scum together, and both seem quite convinced the other is town.

I'm not sure how this makes any sense. Why were ckd and OGML's reads on each other so significant, to the point that we should base

our

opinions on them? He went on to place them both below {People} on his condorcet.

Post 534, vollkan makes a defence for Rogueben by criticising OGML's points against him.

Rogueben's 535 makes me feel a little easier, since he follows up on his OGML vote, asking Michel to clarify his stance on OGML. The question itself, for whatever reason, seems to be one that's more likely to come from a townie.

Post 542 makes me totally take back my ckd-SCAPE speculation.

Xtoxm's 548 is perhaps the only think that I've noticed that could possibly link him to SCAPE. But I noticed Gaspar's post a few pages back where he points out pretty persuasively why Xtoxm probably isn't SCAPE.

I agreed with what MBL had to say on OGML's "scumhunting" post before he even said it.

Thesp seems quite behind the times in general. Quoting that MBL post is

so

last week.

BBMars would be an acceptable lynch (LAL), but I think we have a better option in OGML.

Unvote; Vote: OhMyGodLIfe

, BBMars, Thesp, MichelSableHart, {others}, No Lynch, NabNab

This post makes me cry. No, it doesn't, but I think it's scummy. By this point OGML had obviously started to pick his play up. I don't believe the reason Nab stated justifies his vote.

It's 3:24am now and I'd keep going but I should really sleep.

And, you know, I haven't finished my read, but I keep seeing Nab-scum, and if I keep seeing Nab-scum I start thinking I'm actually onto something.

Vote: NabakovNabakov

[Mr. Grey]

Rogueben and Xtoxm have not posted in 72 hours and have received their second strike.

[curiouskarmadog]

posting to avoid a second strike...wont be able to post anything meaningful until tomorrow (I hope). I got my prod. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[NabakovNabakov]

By this point OGML had obviously started to pick his play up.

What was that? I've believe we've been over this before, but despite being made by a player who ultimately flipped town, that post was incredibly scummy. I had my reservations on placing what would amount to essentially a "me too" vote (that's something I

always

tell scum partners in newbie games not to do), but I was and am confident that the subject matter would speak for itself.

Also, your being consistently hundreds of posts behind the game has been an even more creative way to dodge responsibility than Vollkan's. I know being thourough is a good thing, but this is the most tortourously drawn out replacement read I've ever seen. Up your ping or drop your resolution.

[destructor]

At what point did I dodge responsibility? Despite having not read the whole game, I'm contributing and posting opinions, thoughts and suspicions that are my own and not, at least intentionally, echoes of what has already been said. I expect to be held fully accountable for these and never suggested anything to the contrary.

I want to clarify a few things. Which was OGML "scumhunting" post? What was so scummy about it? (If you've already explained this, which post?) Did you think that nothing OGML did following this post indicated an improvement in his play?

[Gaspar]

lso, your being consistently hundreds of posts behind the game has been an even more creative way to dodge responsibility than Vollkan's. I know being thourough is a good thing, but this is the most tortourously drawn out replacement read I've ever seen. Up your ping or drop your resolution.

FoS

[Rogueben]

Sorry guys. I've been absolutely flat out, haven't had a chance to read and post in a couple of days. I intend to get some posting done this weekend but for the moment I just wanted to say that I think that the Gaspar-MBL argument seems more out of spite than real intent to find scum.

[Xtoxm]

Sorry, not had much time to check games recently.

Looking through my isolation I noticed my recent posts didn't have many words, so need to make sure I get the required words to avoid another strike...

Looks like enough...

Try and get back to normal soon...

[NabakovNabakov]

This would be the post (520)

My condorcet, with reasons:

MBL - You're trying very, very hard to convince people I am made of pure, unadulterated evil, and have simultaneously gone about extremely dangerous setup speculation that seems to either set up a second mislynch (on CKD next) or directly contradict your hypothesis that I am scum (if there really is a role out there that put the basement-dwellers there in the first place). You're also bunching together anyone who got a whiff of the shit you were selling and trying to paint the lot of us badly when you were the one who came out with the craplogic in the first place. You remain my preferred lynch for the day.

Xtoxm - You did the same thing as MBL is now doing with the setup speculation, albeit in a much more straightforward manner. You were also willing to admit it was not necessarily the case. However, day two you've been doing very little aside from playing follow the leader with Gaspar (even admitting so and saying its because Gaspar looks pro-town), and day one I think there were a few too many people pulling out the VI defense for you, to the point where you barely even had to defend yourself. I think you should have been the lynch yesterday, and if you do cardflip scum then all the people who harped on the VI factor when it looked like you were about to get strung up will go under serious scrutiny.

BBMars - I agree with the case already made against you by others and will move you further up my condorcet if necessary to secure a deadline lynch, though this is not in any way preferable to the two I've already listed.

Rogueben - Something about your day one play made me uneasy, and I also think you're one of the more likely to have been trying to get the wagon off of Xtoxm to save a scumbuddy. Post 365 also looks to me like a warning to a scumbuddy to stop being dumb, since you bring up his poor play but don't actually come to a conclusion as to it meaning anything.

LML - Well, you haven't actually done anything yet this game, my suspicion comes from Sensfan. If Xtoxm is in fact town, I see him as the one most taking advantage of the easy wagon, as he jumps on late and later expresses the opinion that he'd like to lynch a pro-town VI just to be rid of a distraction. Other than wagoning X, the only thing he did at the end of the day was call for claims for M-M and Niv.

Niv - You are only listed above {People} because of your last line of Post 451 (which is what put you on my last condorcet) and for your response to my complaint about that, in Post 479 where you acknowledge that you "must have missed the other two" but do nothing to change your condorcet to reflect that.

{People} - I don't have strong feelings on anybody I didn't specifically list. The only one I want to mention is Pooky. I'm not a fan of his method but I don't think its scummy and obviously he isn't going to change it for me if he's unwilling to do so after heated discussion with Vollkan and the repeated attacks from Niv. I hope on later days your tactics will change.

CKD - Not willing to see him lynched. I'm town, he's town. His actions in the basement run counter to what would be in his best interest as scum. There is really very little that would change my position on him.

Unvote; Vote: MBL

, Xtoxm, BBMars, Rogueben, LML, Niv, {People}, CKD, No Lynch, OGML

This only came after enormous pressure from MBL, and his list of suspicions reads completely artificial, as if it was formulated only to quiet MBL and not because he was actually hunting scum.

His case on MBL, his top suspect, doesn't even acknowledge MBL's explanation for his speculation and is mostly dressed up OMGUS.

His Xtoxm case is all smoke: he said silly things about the setup but realized they were wrong, he's following Gaspar but is open about how he feels he is pro-town (and OGML clearly felt Gaspar to be pro-town or neutral too), people were using the VI defense, but he might not be a VI. None of it coheres into any idea of Xtoxm being scum.

BBMars is a standard lurker plug

Suspicion of Rogueben is based on a tangental connection to the still fairly unfounded belief that Xtoxm is scum.

Suspicion of LML deviates wildly from this belief, positing a situation in which Xtoxm is scum and LML is town. Shows a lack of coherent thought process or a need to pad

And seriously, if you were going to be suspicious of Niv, there's better material than what OGML presents. OGML obviously wasn't putting a whole hell of a lot of effort into this if he couldn't be bothered to follow his suspcions elsewhere.

The moment I saw this post, I balked and became pretty damn sure OGML was scum. And no, nothing improved from that point. OGML fell back into a purely defensive posture and stayed there until he was lynched. The above post represents almost the full extent of all scumhunting OGML did.


All I'm saying about the re-read is that a player who is stuck one day behind the rest of the game doesn't comment on current events and is able to hide behind hindsight. It's tough to be wrong when you comment on wagons that have already gone through, and it's tough to be lynched if you're never wrong. I'm not saying a long re-read is guaranteed malicious, but I would definitely like to hear from you on things that are happening now.

[MrBuddyLee]

This only came after enormous pressure from MBL, and his list of suspicions reads completely artificial, as if it was formulated only to quiet MBL and not because he was actually hunting scum.

His case on MBL, his top suspect, doesn't even acknowledge MBL's explanation for his speculation and is mostly dressed up OMGUS.

Brilliant! It warms my heart when people actually acknowledge the facts in this cold, harsh world. If you're scum, I'm going to be very angry with you later for making this much sense.

[curiouskarmadog]

I was the one who first brought up the possibility of NibblerTwins being the first SCAPE kill. My reasoning is roughly as follows:
- SCAPE is probably a scum group. Usually, scum groups have kills.
- Night 1, FaerieLord was killed. It is extremely unlikely this kill was made by SCAPE, seeing that FaerieLord was one of them.
- Night 2, Flameaxe was killed. It is unlikely this kill was made by SCAPE, because Flameaxe (in the incarnation of BBMars) was under quite a bit of suspicion.
- Night 3, Pooky was killed. He could be a SCAPE kill, but his death seems to fit into the pattern of the earlier nightkills.
- At the beginning of day 4, NibblerTwins showed up death. It is unknown by whom or what he was killed.

So, we have a group of possible killers, but few to no deaths attributed to them, and we have a dead body without a killer. I consider the fact that the two are connected a serious possibility.

Your thoughts on the possibility we have two scum groups? Body was found could have been a lynch (though I doubt it). I find it strange that you quickly jump to “that must have been SCAPE’s first kill.” In the last game, where Gaspar was the remaining scum, a mafia kill was “murdered”. Gaspar was an assassin (could by pass doc’s), if he made the kill for the group, the death said something different (correct me if I am wrong gaspar). My point here si that there could be many possibilities to this kill....why you so quickly pushing that it was a SCAPE kill is bothersome.

On the other side of the coin, if the mafia group was inside the other room, they might be able to kill in that room.

Reading from page 20.

Niv’s claim has me at a loss as to alignment.

Reading the old game, an ability like that could be town or mafia

….it is mostly confirmed that he used the ability, unless Rogueben is linked to Niv in some way.

I never actually read the last game in detail, but I did read the role pms and can't remember seeing a pro-town role that resembled this. ckd, what made you think Niv's role could have been pro-town?

From reading the roles of the other game. Some of the town roles stated they could only use a power a certain amount of times. Surely you caught that while reading the roles.

The MBL/Gaspar argument is great and I disagree with Des that it is a distraction. There is a lot of information here. If you think it is a distraction, who is pushing the distraction and why? They both are bringing up some interesting points, but I do agree (with Des) that many others (who typically are more vocal) are being quieter than usual. Changing my list a bit.

Vote {Gaspar

, MS} {Nab, vollkan}, {Rogue, Xtoxm}, MBL, {everyone else}, CKD