Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Ether]

8 Unvote (Andycyca, eldarad, Guardian, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Skruffs, Y, Yosarian2)

8 alive; 5 to lynch.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, I'm sure I don't need to point out that we're in lynch or lose, one wrong vote and we lose. If you're really going to vote me, warn me first, I believe I do have the ability to change your mind if I absolutly have to.

...damnit, I actually was wrong about being able to prove I wasn't scum. Crap.

[Guardian]

Heh...as soon as I saw that you replaced Zinderas, I KNEW you were going to suspect me as soon as you replaced into this game.

Funny... I remember Yosarian2 complaining about me always finding him suspicious... only when he's actually been scum.

Fact is, Rotton Snitch has looked hella scummy basically the whole game. It's easy for you to come in NOW and say "Oh, rotton snitch was clearly just inept town..." but it certanly wasn't clear to anyone before his lynch.

I find the RS wagon to be very unappealing. I would be very reluctant to join that wagon unless something radically changed.

I just finished modding a Newbie Game where Rotten Snitch was a town and gothimself lynched. I don't have any evidence of a game where he was scum, so there's no way to compare, but. Well you can see for yourself. I think the playstyles are similar in both games, but I don't know if his playstyle as scum is different than that as town.

I read after reading alignments, but the whole game I was like "why is RS being suspected...?" You were pretty much the lone voice on him for a while Yos. I don't think the majority of the players wanted to vote RS until you convinced them to on day three, and Skruffs and especially eldarad were opposed to RS lynching. I think it 'certainly was clear to them' that he was a bad lynch before his lynch. Look at Day 2's vote counts for even more evidence of this.

In retrospect, I really do think I should have gotten off him and onto Eldred yesterday, as that was what my gut was telling me to do, but eh, he just acted incredibly anti-town all game, I don't regret wagoning him at all.

Again, I disagree. He acted fairly newb all game, and I do regret you wagoning a townie to lynch. It is odd that you don't regret wagoning a townie to lynch, Yos.

Why Eldred? Where did you say this?

By the way, I'm sure I don't need to point out that we're in lynch or lose, one wrong vote and we lose. If you're really going to vote me, warn me first, I believe I do have the ability to change your mind if I absolutly have to....

[two posts later]...damnit, I actually was wrong about being able to prove I wasn't scum. Crap.

I'm sure I don't need to point out how scummy that looks.

I've also got a gut feeling that Mizzy is probably town. I don't really think Mizzy has really done any "suspicious things" or "backtracked" from them or whatever. If you could be more clear on what you mean on that...

Hm. I could try. Not tonight.

One thing I noted in re-reading though is how aggressively eldarad defends RS. Hmm...

[Yosarian2]

Heh...as soon as I saw that you replaced Zinderas, I KNEW you were going to suspect me as soon as you replaced into this game.

Funny... I remember Yosarian2 complaining about me always finding him suspicious... only when he's actually been scum.

Heh. Not complaining, Guardian, I just knew it.

Anyway, I was sure you were going to be suspicious of me; if nothing else, because I've been scum like the last 7 completed games I played with you, lol.

Again, I disagree. He acted fairly newb all game, and I do regret you wagoning a townie to lynch. It is odd that you don't regret wagoning a townie to lynch, Yos.

Considering the information I had at the time, voting RS seemed to pretty clearly be a good idea.

Why Eldred? Where did you say this?

I said so several times yesterday, Guardian. Basically, the way he kept saying "The RS wagon is bad" but refusing to vote anyone else, and also refusing to defend him with any real vigor, made me start to get nervous about the RS wagon; Eldred was just starting to look too much like scum who was just going to sit back and watch a train wreck while keeping his own hands clean. And I've been suspicious of him for quite a while now anyway.

Of course, RS responded to that with a demand that I keep voting him. Then he kept OMGUS attacking me and claiming he had some secret magical gambit that would somehow win the game for the town if only he got lynched, and made other comments that were even worse.

I'm sure I don't need to point out how scummy that looks.

Meh. It's not, just a miscalculation on my part; I thought I was going to be able to more or less confirm myself pro-town today if I had to, but it turns out I actually can't. I'll explain if I have to, although I'd still rather not.

One thing I noted in re-reading though is how aggressively eldarad defends RS. Hmm...

Yeah.

[Mizzy]

Guardian, if you have some sort of case on me, I'd love to respond to it, but really, you didn't say very much about what actions of mine were scummy.

[Y]

Skruffs, sorry, I missed that paragraph (I looked for what I remembered). You're right on that one.

[Andycyca]

Guardian, I've already stated my reasons for hammering (twice). Basically the game had come to a terrible point and something had to be done. Besides, RS's attitude was extremely anti-town (WIFOMs, strange gambits/plays, a lot of OMGUS-like attacks and the sort of it)

However, I don't think it's enough to make a case on me. Right now my gut tells me hasdfasfgasdf /Eldarad / Mizzy could be scum, but It's somewhat hard for me to remember all this game right now.

I remember a very weak case (and a very unuseful answer) between Mizzy/Eldarad about mislynching back on (D1? D2? can't remember right now), which is an interesting link IMO.

Hascow is the only one I can't really read right now. Not many attacks (could be an interesting scum tactic, though but that's just gut)

More later.

[Guardian]

Pet peeve: selective, partial quoting:

Fact is, Rotton Snitch has looked hella scummy basically the whole game. It's easy for you to come in NOW and say "Oh, rotton snitch was clearly just inept town..." but it certanly wasn't clear to anyone before his lynch.

I find the RS wagon to be very unappealing. I would be very reluctant to join that wagon unless something radically changed.

I just finished modding a Newbie Game where Rotten Snitch was a town and gothimself lynched. I don't have any evidence of a game where he was scum, so there's no way to compare, but. Well you can see for yourself. I think the playstyles are similar in both games, but I don't know if his playstyle as scum is different than that as town.

I read after reading alignments, but the whole game I was like "why is RS being suspected...?" You were pretty much the lone voice on him for a while Yos. I don't think the majority of the players wanted to vote RS until you convinced them to on day three, and Skruffs and especially eldarad were opposed to RS lynching. I think it 'certainly was clear to them' that he was a bad lynch before his lynch. Look at Day 2's vote counts for even more evidence of this.

Do you agree with this assessment, Yos2?

Mizzy: I didn't like 63, for example, I think I made that clear. I didn't like your behavior on the RS wagon. That's the beginnings of where I'm coming from. Can you respond to that any more than you have in the thread? No? Do you find me so unintelligible you can't respond to these two things?

I also read Yos2 to try and understand his perspective more about eldarad. Basically, Yos2 didn't like how eldarad was suspicious of Mizzy, or how he didn't articulate well or respond to questions about his defense of RS. Yes?

I can kind of see it, kind of can't... I am suspicious of Mizzy and don't think I'm articulating it particularly well, and while I could go back and quote posts of RS and explain why I find them town-like, I haven't answered well about RS either. Does that mean I'm scum? (shrug) The thing is eldarad was there at the time and was being constantly asked to explain and didn't. If I was being thought suspicious and asked repeatedly, I could probably get my act together and explain better where I am coming from about Mizzy and Rotten Snitch.

eldarad, can you go back and explain why you found RS town? Can you explain in one concise post why you find/found Mizzy suspicious? Who do you think should be lynched today?

[Yosarian2]

Pet peeve: selective, partial quoting:

Fact is, Rotton Snitch has looked hella scummy basically the whole game. It's easy for you to come in NOW and say "Oh, rotton snitch was clearly just inept town..." but it certanly wasn't clear to anyone before his lynch.

I find the RS wagon to be very unappealing. I would be very reluctant to join that wagon unless something radically changed.

I just finished modding a Newbie Game where Rotten Snitch was a town and gothimself lynched. I don't have any evidence of a game where he was scum, so there's no way to compare, but. Well you can see for yourself. I think the playstyles are similar in both games, but I don't know if his playstyle as scum is different than that as town.

I read after reading alignments, but the whole game I was like "why is RS being suspected...?" You were pretty much the lone voice on him for a while Yos. I don't think the majority of the players wanted to vote RS until you convinced them to on day three, and Skruffs and especially eldarad were opposed to RS lynching. I think it 'certainly was clear to them' that he was a bad lynch before his lynch. Look at Day 2's vote counts for even more evidence of this.

Do you agree with this assessment, Yos2?

Yeah, I was the only guy going after RS for quite a while, and frankly that kind of confused me; at the time I could not understand why I seemed to be the only guy who was finding RS suspicious.

I also read Yos2 to try and understand his perspective more about eldarad. Basically, Yos2 didn't like how eldarad was suspicious of Mizzy, or how he didn't articulate well or respond to questions about his defense of RS. Yes?

Yeah, that was the initial case against him.

Basically, there was a wagon that ended up lynching a townie on day 1. Eldred supported the wagon, Mizzy opposed it. Day 2, Mizzy basically just said "Well, that wagon was dumb", which is pretty much what I'd expect a townie to say in one of those situations where you were right and the town didn't listen to you, and Eldred instantly jumped all over her for that. He misrepresented her in all kinds of ways, tried to make it sound like she was attacking people and at the same time attacked her for not attacking people in a specific enough way, and basically did all kinds of demogagical-style tricks that just felt really, really scummy to me.

The whole thing just came off like he was a really jumpy scum over-reacting to fairly weak and vauge critisism against a mislynch that he was involved in. That post where he was attacking Mizzy there just felt way over the top. I went into more detail about this earlier, I think.

I can kind of see it, kind of can't... I am suspicious of Mizzy and don't think I'm articulating it particularly well, and while I could go back and quote posts of RS and explain why I find them town-like, I haven't answered well about RS either. Does that mean I'm scum? (shrug)

No, I don't think you're scum. Again, it wasn't that he was attacking Mizzy that I didn't like, I was actually pretty much neutral about her at the time, it was the way he was doing it that just set off all kinds of alarms for me.

I also got a pretty bad vibe from the way eldred was acting towards the RS wagon yesterday, as I mentioned.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: I didn't like 63, for example, I think I made that clear. I didn't like your behavior on the RS wagon. That's the beginnings of where I'm coming from. Can you respond to that any more than you have in the thread? No? Do you find me so unintelligible you can't respond to these two things?

So, basically two things, one post and one general action. Not much to go on.

Anyway, my post that you didn't like it one I've made before in games that I was town in, so you can not like it all you want, but it's a null-tell at best. Oh, and by the way, it was 62 that was my post, not 63.

As for my actions on the RS wagon, you mean voting him and sticking with my opinion that RS was scum? It's easy to look back now and be against a mislynch wagon, hindsight is 20/20 and you weren't even here for it.

Anyway, two points, one a null-tell, does not a decent case make. But you already knew that, or you'd be voting me.

[Guardian]

Heh. Not complaining, Guardian, I just knew it.

Anyway, I was sure you were going to be suspicious of me; if nothing else, because I've been scum like the last 7 completed games I played with you, lol.

Are you implying I only found you suspicious because you've been scum in the past?

Also for the record, at least in what Ether initially gave me, there was no confirmation on my end that anything was stuffed up my nose by Skruffs or whatnot.

[Yosarian2]

Uh...Guardian, I'm a bit confused about what post you're talking about; post 63 in the thread wasn't made by Mizzy, and I don't see anything wrong with her post #63 when you do a list of just her posts if that's what you mean. Could you be a little more specific?

[Guardian]

Post 62, as Mizzy figured out.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, ok, just wanted to make sure we were all discussing the same thing here, heh. So, this post?

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

By the way, this made me lol, seriously. I snorted soda.

It was a joke, nothing useful (snip)

This has to be a joke

No shit, sherlock

Was it that "we don't have any good reasons to vote yet" comment? I don't agree with that comment from a theory standpoint, but I don't really see it as a scumtell, especally when coming from a player who I have a pretty consistant meta on of rarely or never voting without strong reasons.

Actually, I've got some time, I think I'll go and read though some other games of hers to confirm if my meta on her is correct, one sec...

Looking at her last 5 or 6 games on her profile where she started from day 1, she occasioanlly random votes, but other then that, I can't find any cases where she's placed a serious vote without posting at least 25-30 time herself first, and often a lot more then that; and any vote is usually preceeded by a whole bunch of questions, IGMEOY's, fos's, bigger fos's, ect. I've gone through about 20 pages of her most recent posts, and I havn't yet found any games where she's placed a non-random vote on someone anywhere near that early in the game. So coming from her, no, I don't really think it's a scumtell.

[Guardian]

Mizzy: I pretty much refuse to meta, but Yos2 seems to have done so... (shrug) maybe it is a null tell.

I think my suspicion of you has not been articulated well, and I won't vote you until I articulate it well, but I do think my suspicion on you is worthy. Like I said I am open to being convinced otherwise and being convinced that others are scum. Yos2 isn't doing a bad job on that front, though, maybe I'm just really wrong in my initial thoughts .

What's up people who I didn't say I was suspicious of initially? What do you think of my entry and suspicions? Who do we lynch today?

[Y]

There's one thing bothering me about Mizzy: D1 we lynched a townie, and she was all over the place, accusing everybody for it. Now that she was on the wagon herself, she says nothing and acts as if nothing wrong was done. Is one mislynch better than another?

[Skruffs]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

...what?

Everyone should be trying to figure out who could theoretically be part of a 3 man scum group and who couldn't. That's how you find the scum in lynch or lose. How is that "odd", Skruffs?

[Mizzy]

There's one thing bothering me about Mizzy: D1 we lynched a townie, and she was all over the place, accusing everybody for it. Now that she was on the wagon herself, she says nothing and acts as if nothing wrong was done. Is one mislynch better than another?

I didn't say I was HAPPY that a mislynch happened, now did I?

I'm trying my best, and also trying to hide my frustration with the game. Unlike some, I learn from my mistakes, and since me being openly pissed off at a mislynch nearly got

me

mislynched, I would much prefer to just scream into a pillow in real life and move on with it.

[Y]

I didn't say I was HAPPY that a mislynch happened

Neither did I, but the completely different reaction bothers me.

[Skruffs]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

...what?

Everyone should be trying to figure out who could theoretically be part of a 3 man scum group and who couldn't. That's how you find the scum in lynch or lose. How is that "odd", Skruffs?

I play the game of "Find one scum at a time", especially considering we can't be absolutely sure that it is a three man scum group. While a three man scum group is "Average", I myself have never used one. What if it is a two man scum group?

[Mizzy]

I didn't say I was HAPPY that a mislynch happened

Neither did I, but the completely different reaction bothers me.

You miss the part where the two lynch wagons were different. On Capricious, I was pretty sure he wasn't scum, and warned everyone so before the mislynch. On RS, I was pretty sure he WAS scum and aided in the mislynch.

I'm pretty pissed that I was wrong but how can I be angry at other people who made the same mistake I did?

[Yosarian2]

I don't much like Y's play, and Yos is acting odd, I've never seen him try to make someone as town because they can't them as part of a three man scum group. THat's just really REALLY odd, and looks bad on Yos.

...what?

Everyone should be trying to figure out who could theoretically be part of a 3 man scum group and who couldn't. That's how you find the scum in lynch or lose. How is that "odd", Skruffs?

I play the game of "Find one scum at a time", especially considering we can't be absolutely sure that it is a three man scum group. While a three man scum group is "Average", I myself have never used one. What if it is a two man scum group?

I find a two man scum group pretty unlikely, since the town apparenlty isn't completly powerless (according to your own claim), and since the relitivly few kills means it's pretty unlikely there's a scum group and a SK or two different killing scum groups. I'm not 100% certain there's a 3 man scum group, but it's a high enough probability that I'm willing to assume it and see what conclusions can be drawn from that assumption.

Hunting one scum at a time is generally good advice early in the game. At THIS point in the game, however, there are so few suspects left that you can often nail the entire scum group in one fell swoop. That type of analysis, of trying to figure out what plausable scum groups might exist, is INCREDIBLY useful to the town at this point, and incredibly dangerous to the scum, because you don't even need to actually eliminate anyone, you just have to be able to say "A and B are almost certanly not scum together", and you can very often figure out "The scum group has got to be either ACD, or ACE, or CDE, so C has GOT to be scum, vote C", and there's really nothing the scum can do about it.

I would like Y to comment on the post where i said that I thought the most likely scum groups are probably (Eldred, Andy, hasdfas) or (Eldred, Andy, Y). I find it interesting he commented on Mizzy but just ignored that post. Who seems like a plausable scum group to you right now, Y?

[eldarad]

The thing is eldarad was there at the time and was being constantly asked to explain and didn't. If I was being thought suspicious and asked repeatedly, I could probably get my act together and explain better where I am coming from about Mizzy and Rotten Snitch.

Being thought of suspicious - from someone I believed to be scum anyway - isn't necessarily enough for me to show all my cards. If there had been any significant, meaningful pressure on me I may have been more forthcoming. Since only Yoscum was pushing for this, I didn't see any need to 'get my act together'

Can you explain in one concise post why you find/found Mizzy suspicious?

Two words: "The 'pedestal".

Day 1, Mizzy wasn't part of the Capri wagon.
Day 2, Mizzy takes the opportunity to get on her pedestal and attack all the people who were on the Capri wagon.
She claims that she isn't attacking anyone at all since she hasn't voted or FoS'ed.
She is also very vague in her comments about who she is talking to/about. (See, for example, my post 552 on this)

Having been called out for this pedestal thing by me Day 2, it's interesting that Mizzy

didn't

get on her pedestal on Day 3 about people failing to post (thus forcing a no-lynch). It's a tacit admission that I had a point, even if she refuses to vocalise it.

~~~
And, since we're discussing it, my hypothetical scum group at the moment is Yos, Mizzy and ???
Not sure of scum number 3 yet.

[Yosarian2]

You didn't "have a point", eldred. If doing action A gets you attacked, then you'll do action A less often, no matter if you objectivly think the people attacking you are right or wrong.

Anyway, I really can't imagine any situation here where Eldred isn't scum, and I'm about ready to vote for him here, unless anyone has an objection or a logical theory for a scumgroup that dosn't include Eldred and fits the facts as I know them.