Open 74 - C/9ths (Game Over!) before 601

[Mokina]

You want an entire post devoted to EL? Granted.

Vote Snix

For buddying up with Mokina since early game, and because I think a MokinaXSnix scumpair is viable from what I've seen as of so far. Though, to be honest buddying up the way you have is probably a bit too obvious a scumtell to come from intelligent, experienced players such as yourselves. That is why I am voting for you, Snix, rather than Mokina; because although I am suspicious of the both of you--she has more votes and I would like to see how this ganging up you guys have thus far seemed fond of changes in reaction to this post rather than pushing for a lynch.

Poor argument. Both myself and Snix started scumhunting early on; that's the only similarity betwen us at that point in the game. Interestingly, around this point EL suggested a no-lynch, meaning that he's against the idea of looking for the mafia D1.

Depends on how you look at it, but how likely is it that a new-town player would push going to bed early... even without prior knowledge of the game conventions? Looking at his later posts, it just doesn't fit. Newbies with protown roles keep their heads down and ask a few questions every once in a while. After nine pages, EL sure doesn't look like the type.

Lowell pops up to support him, somewhat irrationally.

unvote, vote snix. To give Eldrich's ideas some legs.

Thank you for posting a vote based on my playstyle rather than content or scum-clues and offering no actual reasoning right before a period when you know you'll have limited access to mafiascum.net It makes perfect sense.

He immediately jumps on Darla for accusing him of poor logic. Plain and simple OMGUS, but probably a null tell. Moving on to something scummier, as he defends his reasoning behind the Snix vote...

Do not mistake game-motivating pressure for anger/passion. Truly, I have nothing against you for disagreeing with me on this random-lynch/random-vote issue, I have not attacked ZombieSlayer or Sideney for disagreeing with me. It is not personal, it is simply this:

1. The random vote you held for me even after you said donkey did something suspicious
2. The fact that you held that vote in synchrony with Mokina's until after I called it to light, which is when you chose to disagree with her.
3. The trap-question directed towards myself, a new player, that would have likely resulted in a quicker lynch if I had answered it in a manner not expected of Town. (Yes, I am new).
4. The fact that you are so quick to call your fellow townies "dumb", doubt their logic (Mokina), and claim that I also went ballistic on ZS and Sideney for disagreeing with me (if that's really the only reason I hate you, it would be true that I hate them as well) Despite the fact I think Mokina may possibly, might, kind of be scum--if you think she's town you shouldn't be so quick to doubt her logic, especially after agreeing with it for so long.

Classic scum straw-man. For those who don't do logic, that means you're misrepresenting someone else's opinion in a way that's easier to refute. I hadn't even noticed this post until I did my Darla reread, but here it goes.

1. Holding random votes is a matter of personal taste. It means nothing on p.3, though it might later.
2. It's a convention of the entire site that you don't no-lynch on D1. I fully expect someone else to call you out on it too.
3. The trap-question was pointless. It doesn't make him scum.

Mostly, this post is just drivel. We are at a disadvantage when analyzing EL because his poor logic could just be a result of his inexperience. It's not a viable scumtell.

That said, some tells are

more

reliable for newbies. The last part of his post is very interesting:

The fact that you are so quick to call

your fellow townies

"dumb."

To use the words of ZombieSlayer in my mishmash game... read this carefully. Read it quite a few times.

If you read the wiki enough, you'll stumble across a list of common scumtells. One of them is the Freudian slip. Only the scum know exactly who the confirmed townies are. Eldritch Lord has just referred to Snix and myself as "townies."

For the rest of the thread, he throws around suspicion indiscriminately and without explanation. Poor logic aside, I would say that there are too many slip-ups on Eldritch Lord's record to be the fault of inexperience alone.

Vote: EL

[Mokina]

By the way, Darla, I apologize for singling you out earlier. I the nearest person with a vote and tagged along. I suspect EL viewed me as a town ally at that point, and it was the perfect chance for him to hop on the wagon.

Also... third person on the wagon? Yet another good new-scum tell.

[Mokina]

EBWOP, amending above post.

I

found

the nearest person...

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Okie lets quote some posts!!

EL's First:

Random voting is scummy imo

Where did this come from? Really? to just jump in and slap all our wrists for 'Random voting'

next posts:

Random voting is scummy imo

Care to outline your reasons?
Vote

Unvote, Vote: Eldritch Lord

For sheer comedic value.

(It is almost universally accepted that random voting draws out discussion

EL retaliates with a OMGUS

So does any form of talking, assuming both sides of the discussion are willing to converse.

Vote: Mokina

Bandwagoning with a parenthetical excuse is still bandwagoning.

(Interesting he doesn't agree with Bandwaggoning here but on me or snix he endorses it)

Then a few posts later he says:

I'm not going to push it, however, as

I don't really have anything to go on besides the fact that you voted for me

. Still, I find

random voting rather scummy

, why would we eliminate one of our members by voting for them if we didn't know anything about them--or hardly anything. There's a greater chance the person will come up Town. So, until we know more, since we have no deadline I'm going to try to avoid setting up an easy hammer.

Unvote
Slight FoS: Mokina

He admits openly to an OMGUS vote and presses his ideal that Random Voting is scummy, dismissing the comments that it gets discussion going and draws out scum tells.

onward to page 2

Don't jump to conclusions, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Day 1 has no deadline thus far, so there's no need to rush Day 1. Voting no-lynch is affordable on Day 1 when you have this many people, but that doesn't make it smart--it's still a pretty pro-Scum move.

So random Voting is scummy, and voting a No-lynch is better but its Still scummy? What is he saying here? does he even know? I think this is pure WIFOM and him trying to have a loop hole.

Snix Addresses his hostile attitude in some of the following posts, and he retaliates with another Baseless OMGUS vote:

It was a question. A simple trap laden question, but a question none the less. No need to get so defensive.

I also don't think that no-lynch is affordable. Every lynch, scum lynch or not, gives information to the living the next day. Like who hammered the lynch, who pushed the lynch, who was just along for the ride. All very good sources of information. I don't see a real point for voting no lynch unless everything is split and a deadline will just have the person with the most lynches lynched.

I don't think its suspicious at all, putting pressure on people is a good way to learn more about them (how they react, if they procrastinate or shrug responsibility, etc.), and more importantly how scummy they are(n't). It's not a quick-lynch, it's just pressure. However, it is kind of odd that Mokina would defend random voting--but still concede that random lynching is bad.

Vote Snix

For buddying up with Mokina since early game, and because I think a MokinaXSnix scumpair is viable from what I've seen as of so far. Though, to be honest buddying up the way you have is probably a bit too obvious a scumtell to come from intelligent, experienced players such as yourselves. That is why I am voting for you, Snix, rather than Mokina; because although I am suspicious of the both of you--she has more votes and I would like to see how this ganging up you guys have thus far seemed fond of changes in reaction to this post rather than pushing for a lynch.

a few posts later he says"

To not have a scumpair at any given time is a waste, I find it more efficient to put specific people under near-ludicrous scrutiny rather than kind of scan over everyone and have a chance of missing the scum.

Also, I don't agree at all with TSN until this page, rather than doing it from the start of the game. We have different interests, the common one is getting some pressure on Snix. I actually have something to go on, although I'd like to hear his reasoning a bit more.

(Interesting, he applies this to himself but accuses me of being mean/scum when I do it to him)


then Mokina drops this gem here which I love

In all seriousness, putting pressure on players (even if there's no concrete reason to do so) is the only way to provoke discussion about another person's tactics. For instance, if it's random, why did they pick that player? It looks scummy to pick a newb, etc.

So here we go, loop hole for her Defense of EL, and 'picking on a newbie' is basically saying they are off limits even though they could be scum as much as anyone.

(at this point I am thinking Mokina is EL's scum buddy, and laying the groundwork for an excuse to her defense of him)

another post from EL:

Yes, perhaps I voiced my opinion a bit too strongly, or worded it in the wrong manner. Allow me to clarify ZS,

I don't want a random lynch or a no lynch, I don't think it would be a good idea.

again with these symantics, again I ask, what DOES he want?

after the above Post, I voted for him, eliciting a very hostile reply:

Thank you for posting a vote based on my playstyle rather than content or scum-clues and offering no actual reasoning right before a period when you know you'll have limited access to mafiascum.net It makes perfect sense.

at this point I was only to be gone about 3 days, not some week long LA.

several posts and arguements with Snix down the page he replies to snix with this:

Do not mistake game-motivating pressure for anger/passion. Truly, I have nothing against you for disagreeing with me on this random-lynch/random-vote issue, I have not attacked ZombieSlayer or Sideney for disagreeing with me. It is not personal, it is simply this:

1. The random vote you held for me even after you said donkey did something suspicious
2. The fact that you held that vote in synchrony with Mokina's until after I called it to light, which is when you chose to disagree with her.
3.

The trap-question directed towards myself, a new player, that would have likely resulted in a quicker lynch if I had answered it in a manner not expected of Town. (Yes, I am new).

4. The fact that you are so quick to call your fellow townies "dumb", doubt their logic (Mokina), and claim that I also went ballistic on ZS and Sideney for disagreeing with me (if that's really the only reason I hate you, it would be true that I hate them as well) Despite the fact I think Mokina may possibly, might, kind of be scum--if you think she's town you shouldn't be so quick to doubt her logic, especially after agreeing with it for so long.

The bolded part is The newbie argument, WIFOM, and seems like he is WAY to focus on looking townie/not looking scummy.

Then there is a bunch of arguing posts where many people tell him he needs to calm down, and that its just a game, he reacts VERY hostly and emotionally, (I am nto the only one who saw it)

lots of drabble....then Mike Zim votes for a no lynch (remember what EL wanted to do earlier?)

HAND OF SUSPICION!: Mike-Zim *Dramatic Music Plays*

For epic lurking, and hopping to suggest a no-lynch. Yes, it may be a cautious town move, but with all that's happened thus far, I find it hard to believe you don't find someone just a tad bit suspicious-or that you would have a motive not to say so if you did.

so now voting for a no lynch is suspicion worthy, but not if he does it. interesting.

then 2 posts later he randomly changes his mind again,

Vote: Lowell

You voted Snix to give my argument some legs, the thing is my argument barely had a base. I am shamelessly starting a Lowell wagon. Discuss.

Vote hopping I tell you!!

Up till now he has voted for:

vote Mokina
Unvote
FOS Mokina
vote Snix
Unvote
FOS Zombie
HOS Mike zim
Vote Lowell

he hopped around a ton and thats just by page 4.

Anyways, I return and ask why Mokina is all of a sudden Defending EL excessively:

mokina, can I ask why you feel like it is so necessary to defend EL?

n00b or not, this isnt a newbie game where IC's are needed...so I am just wondering why you are defending him so much?

I am not gonna quote all her defending, just read page 4-5.

EL replies;

Can I ask you why you are holding onto my vote, Darla?

Does it go beyond playstyle at all?

This is my first post since returning, and he is already on me, His insane need to NOT have any votes is scummy in itself, and convinces me to keep my vote to see how he acts.

(no one wants votes but scum especially newbie scum hate it and tend to panic)

I reply:

I haven't gotten a chance to finish reading yet, but you only have one vote afaik, so what are you so worried about?

He retorts with a sarcasm laced reply, admitting that I actually have some 'sliver' of a chance of having a reasonable vote. (it was established earlier in the thread by Snix I believe, that keeping a vote on the only person you find scummy, no matter how much scummy you find them, is a good way to get discussion and reads.) I believe this as well and operate by it.

YOUR OPINION MEANS THE WORLD TO ME! /cry

Actually, its simply because you are the only person actually voting for me with some slim chance of your vote making sense. So, as soon as you finish reading (and if your vote still stands), it'd be really awesome to hear your reasoning.

I give my reasons for my vote, which are in concordance with many of the points made above:

EL- taking into account that you are new, I will show a bit of understanding, but you have extemely emotional reactions to things.

Especially people voting for you, so just chill abit, there will always be votes, and random voting is nothing ot get all worked up over. In a bigger game like this (vs a newbie game) its not as easy to get a quick lynch.

You're severe unsettled nature about ANY votes being on you concerns me. You don't handle the pressure well, which makes me want to keep my vote on you until I see more scummy actions from someone else.

Also you have been jumping around alot on your stance of players such as Mokina.

I just don't like how you are playing, thus my vote stands for now.

The he says:

Hm, I think you missed the sarcasm in the first statement. I was simply curious as to why you were voting for me--since you had up until then provided absolutely zero reason beyond "his playstyle". The caps and slash cry were because you seemed to be continuously dodging the question because you were simultaneously "catching up" and reading the newest posts---it was a joke, you think I care about your vote way more than I do.

I care a bit about your vote because I don't want a town lynch (myself) on Day 1, but I also don't think your vote is going anywhere given how scummy Lowell, Mike-Zim, and other more suspicious members of this game have been.

That was not an emotional reaction, and

not once in playing this game have I felt the need for emotional response

. I'm a /b/'er, I lost my soul long ago.

LOl @ Bolded part. Page 1-3 is littered with people telling him to chill, because of his emotional posting. He continues his vote and FOS hopping to Lowell and Mike Zim, a Lurker and a IC, Lowell imo had been delivering good arguments EL couldnt compensate for and he just retaliated with a Fos.

(This is getting long D: sorry Guys)

Then the pages of ZS/EL arguments ensue.....

this sentace popped out for me from Post 124

I am not scum, I will not stand by and let myself get bandwagoned by the people who are currently on my case, sorry.

Again he is really focused on not being lynched, and is more worried about lookinf or being perceived as scummy than scum hunting.

Skip through a pile of EL/ZS madness...

we get this scumtastic post, playing to the town:

Mokina, I urge you to pay special heed to Lowell's posts (both the lack thereof, as well as the lack of content with them).

I agree, it's time we move on from this pseudo-random stage.

unFoS: Everyone I'm Not Voting For
Final Vote for Day 1: Lowell

This is of course barring any revelation brought on by a good re-read or some very good explaining on Lowell's part. At this point however, I seriously encourage you to speak up Lowell, as I would not at all mind you being Day One's lynch--given how things have gone thus far.

Other possible candidates at this point, for me:
DarlaBlueEyes
ZombieSlayer54
Snix

His other candidates include me, who wont unvote the poor newb, the person who has been arguing with him (somewhat rudely) and Snix who has provided some of the best arguments to his (El's) logic.

lots of discussiion ladee ladee

then this:

Darla, there is nothing to react to. I am holding fast to my position that your vote is baseless--I've given up trying to convince you otherwise, those who are persuadable will be persuaded. My focus right now isn't on that--its on Lowell who has yet to post in response to my concerns.

again he is agitated with my vote, and there is truely no such thing as a baseless vote, he also makes mention that he sees I am not persuadable. which IMO sets me up for a NK by the scum (being him) if he isn't lynched. Its obvious I am onto him and he doesn't like it. So he dismisses me.


Nwxt Post Mokina says

"I'm Sold"

and Joins EL's bandwagon on Lowell, I find that a bit scummy combined with previous interactions between the two.

I mention his aggitation with my vote and he replies (gasp hostily)

Agitated? I told you I don't care because I truly don't believe you'll bandwagon me with Lurkers like Lowell pushing bandwagon votes with no explanation. Sorry, but if you can get on, you shouldn't vote unless you have time for an explanation--no matter what your excuse is, this is the internet and it can be faked.

so Now he doesn't care, and knows I'll 'do the right thing' and not bandwagon with the evol lurkerz like the evol Lowell.

The rest of the posts are recent enough you guys can look for yourselves, and I have made a long enough post I think.

I kinda got carried away, this is why I find him scummy.

Vote Stands.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

crossed posts with you mokina, and looking at you takes on it, I can see where & How he allied himself to you much more than you did to him.

The defending him concerned me only because i Did the same thing in my first game as scum on another site, i had a bad scum partner and constantly had to defend them, as I reread I still saw some hints of an alignment, but much more so from his end than yours.

It is also doubtful to me that you would bus your own partner on D1 with a vote, so I will say that my FoS on Mokina is much less now.

[Iron Man]

Hey, sorry for the lack of action. I was out of town for the weekend and away from the computer. Yes, my post count on this game has been severly lacking, it's just a little hard for me to read the huge novels you guys write and try to form an objective view on the situation. I will try to be more active on this thread in the future. Sorry. I'm currently reading through the past couple days of posting, and there is a ton, so it might take a little while before I jump into the fray.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't see vote hopping as a serious tell, particularly day 1. EL hasn't been bandwagoning people, he's been at least attempting to lead charges.

Also, I'd like to point out that EL never actually voted no lynch, he just mentioned it. Which was silly, but I don't think there's much of a scum play in that.

But the "your fellow townies" slip, that actually might be something. I'm not ready to vote for that yet.

Darla's initial defense, well, wasn't really a defense, and I'm still not entirely happy with her wishy-washiness around her suspicion of EL. But she's clearly making an effort now to hunt, or is superbly pretending to, and I'm willing to reward that.

Unvote, vote sideney.

Still waiting on that content.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

That ws the longest post I have ever made on MS...I was just so frustrated because EL seems so scummy to me and I feel like the only one who can see it... I know I have some holes in my case, but there's hardly ever a solid case (that i've seen) this early on.

Sidney lurking does bother me, but it seems more like a disinterest...I will do some meta to see if she/he has been active in other games recently.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm all for a pressure, prod, and replace wagon on sideney. Who's with me?

[DarlaBlueEyes]

if you check Sid's posting history its very slow and sparse, the last cluster of high activity was may 7-may 8 in his only other game, he has been posting at about the same rate in it with similar small posts.

not saying this clears him but it does seem to be consistently happening in his other game.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, if he's not going to play. . . he needs replacing.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I agree.

prod on Sidney

and I'm all for a replace too,

[Iron Man]

I agree with the Sidney prod.

[Mokina]

Sideney agreed to do a reread, but noncontributing townies and lurking scum have the same effect, and I don't like either of them.

Prod Request: Sideney

[Mokina]

Still waiting on that content.

I might consider Sideney a viable lynch candidate if she posts without content but responds to prods. Personally, though, I would rather see her replaced than silent.

[Snix]

I agree with the Sidney prod.

Good to see you speak up, any thoughts on current situations other than Sidney?

Also, I'd rather replace Sidney rather than lynch because there are better candidates.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oh, I completely agree.

If sideney continues to post without content, she needs to be pressured into changing her behavior. If she stops posting altogether, she needs to be replaced. Being replaced, or having her actually start posting content, are both better solutions.

(But you can't pressure lurkers if you admit you aren't going to lynch them)

[Mokina]

Also, I'd rather replace Sidney rather than lynch because there are better candidates.

Not only that, but replacing lurkers with talkative people is always a good option. Lurker scum don't slip up as much, and lurker town don't contribute as much.

[Snix]

(But you can't pressure lurkers if you admit you aren't going to lynch them)

Kind of like Lowell can we get a

Prod:Lowell

?

[Lowell]

I'm here. A little busy.

Day won't end in the next couple of RL days, so I'll have time. Worry not.

[Eldritch Lord]

Unvote

Vote: Sideney

Prod Request: Sideney, Mike-Zim

Darla, my eye is still on you, but I feel that Sideney needs to begin contributing a lot more, and a pressure vote might not be such a bad idea.

In response to the "Freudian slip", it was because I was referring to the Town as a whole. Only 2 of the Town is mafia, so to call everyone stupid is still to call the Town stupid. That was all I meant by it, though I can understand why such a slip would bring attention to myself.

The vote hopping is earnest scum-hunting, TSN is right, I'm trying to lead a charge. I can see that I have essentially, in my haste to clear my own name, created a large case against myself. My focus is simply on hunting down the scum, while simultaneously clearing my name so that we can get someone who is actually Mafia on Day 1 and go from there. It is simply in this spirit that I have been so defensive, although hopefully if I am lynched it will bring suspicion to some of my scum suspects.

I have looked at everyone for scum-tells rather than just one person. That way, I can know a little bit about everyone and if I am wrong (which sometimes happens) about a lynch and someone comes up town I will still have a read on other players still in the game.

I am beginning to think that by scum-hunting (which is what I am trying to do, my perception in regards to others changes with each post they make and each response they give) I have brought so much attention to myself that if I am not lynched, I will be NK'd--at least if this happens it will be clearer that my suspicions will be correct.

Your freudian slip, as you call it, is nothing more than a simple mistake though I have to admit that

in the context you have put it in

it sounds far worse than it is. I urge other players to read the full posts before hopping on my bandwagon for just that reason.

I've realized that the problem with this style of scum-hunting (looking at everyone at once rather than locking onto one person) happens to be that I spend more time defending myself against everyone I've ever voted for than I get to spend scum-hunting.

With that said, there are some things we should keep in mind before so casually dropping our vote at Darla and totally forgetting about Lowell. Keep in mind exactly what Mokina said in regards to Lowell,

Not only that, but replacing lurkers with talkative people is always a good option. Lurker scum don't slip up as much, and lurker town don't contribute as much.

He's been semi-lurking this entire game, Snix has a point. Also, in regards to Darla, this is her first strong post and the first attempt I see at earnest scum-hunting. Post 212 just screams "I give up, you caught me." to me, I don't know how others feel.

I will re-read and post more in regards to the situation later, as I am rather busy at this time.

[Eldritch Lord]

Ah, something that I can also address at this time is the FoS hopping by Mokina and DarlaBlueEyes, the people I vote for are not close to lynch--so the difference between an FoS hop and a vote hop at that time is simply the way the text reads since neither will likely lead to an (immediate) lynch.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am beginning to think you really are just that n00bish, EL.

In all my games never have I seen a scum "give up" as you say on day one with a lame case against them.

I was annoyed and I got a bit too sarcastic and 'FU' with my post ,yea I admitted it and apologized :p

but to think I was saying I give up you caught me and that I am scum from that is laughable.


also, I like how your entire post is worded carefully, and dancing around the accusations laid forth against you.

you guess you have been maybe trying to clear your own name more than scum hunt ect ect

and could you say that you are scum hunting more ways and times in that post?

You accuse me of FoS hopping, and Mokina too (OMGUS possibly?) When if you review the past few pages you have laid out many FoS's and a Whoping HAND OF SUSPICION. While I myself have not, I don't FoS everyone for every little thing. I like to look at their actions as a whole, and then decide if they are scum from there.

you have no real answers for the points made against you by myself or mokina, other than you have been trying hard to scum hunt, and yadda yadda.

in the words of ABR,

Die Scum!

[DarlaBlueEyes]

to sum up,

El is either a gaggingly new n00bie

or as scummy as the day is long

[DarlaBlueEyes]

EBWOP:

I am inclined to believe the latter by the majority of his playstyle