California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[MichelSableheart]

The first half of Post 237 and Sable's response in Post 243 are interesting -- somewhat parallel to MBL's interrogation of Nabs. Sable states that most of his points against Xtox aren't indicative of Xtox being scum; they are just examples of anti-town behavior.

Sable incorrectly states that Xtox is atop his list to help ensure a condorcet winner. The vote count at the top of the same page lists Niv as the condorcet winner. For somebody who is big on everybody understanding condorcet, this is somewhat alarming to me, especially with Niv having died as scum. In the first CT game (which I know Sable read), we looked for ways to subtlely manipulate condorcet to get what we wanted. He did explain that the vote was there as a slap on the wrist, but that seems slightly silly when he's allegedly so damned keen on making sure we have a condorcet winner. I'd like to see a thorough explanation of Sable's thought processes throughout this exchange (read over all of Page 10, Sable) before deciding how exactly I feel about this.

First of all, please note that my condorcet list at the time was as follows:

Niv, Xtoxm, Rogueben, MrBuddyLee, FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, SensFan, Machiavellian-Mafia, Gaspar, vollkan, NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear, {curiouskarmadog, Gorrad, IH, Nibbler Twins, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro}, Mr. Grey, No Lynch, MichelSableheart

At that point in time, Niv was at the top of my condorcet, to guarantee a condorcet winner. Your comment that Xtoxm was at the top of my condorcet at the time even though Niv was condorcet winner is incorrect.

I was

voting

(as in, my vote was on) Xtoxm as a slap on the wrist. My comments in post #243 on Xtoxm's postion on my condorcet were about my reasoning for placing him on the second place. There were two reasons for that.

The first was my gut reaction to Xtoxm's behaviour. On first sight, his posts looked rather scummy. Only when I really thought things through did I start to realize that he was likely town being attacked. That feeling started to form when I posted my list, but wasn't solid enough at the time to warrant placing Xtoxm lower. Because I didn't update my list before post #243, Xtoxm was still in second place as a result of gut reaction.

The second reason for placing Xtoxm second on my list was that it made the condorcet much clearer. Niv beat Xtoxm heavily, and Xtoxm beat everyone but Niv. If I lowered Xtoxm, Niv would still beat him, but the differences between Xtoxm and the other players would become smaller. It made it more likely that Xtoxm would start to tie with other people, being beaten by one or two players who in turn were beaten by other players, creating an extremely large smith set if Niv should ever drop on the condorcet.

Michel: Consider the end of D1, where you voted for Fae but put Mach above on your condorcet lynch. If you had just voted for Fae, somebody else could have jumped to him, tipping the scales in favor of Fae and resulting in an outright scumlynch D1. It's obvious that "ensuring a condorcet lynch on somebody" was your motive, but why are you the one so willing to give in to lynch somebody whom you don't suspect as much? Wouldn't the more protown thing to be "try harder to convince everyone to lynch whom you believe is scummy"?

Before I placed MM on top of my list, MM beat FaerieLord 8 votes to 2. Even if I had just voted FL, it is extremely unlikely he would have become the condorcet winner. Simultaneously, the smith set was MM and Niv. In that situation, guaranteeing a condorcet lynch on someone I did have suspicions on was far more important then trying to get a deadline lynch on the ideal lynch candidate.

Scape indeed seems to be a scumgroup, but I don't think there are any kills that can be attributed to them yet. FaerieLord, Flameaxe and Pooky all got the same description (murdered), so are likely to be made by the same killer. It's possible that the dead of Nibbler Twins can be attributed to them, though.

Shit, this is bad too. Really bad. The amazing thing is, I don't think I've ever seen Gaspar protect a scumpartner this WIFOM blatantly, so I doubt he and Sableheart are aligned. There are enough things to point out at this point that it doesn't make sense for me to wait much longer on what I've spotted, but I'd like others to take a look at Gaspar/Sableheart please before I let my arrows fly.

What is so bad about that quote?

[Gaspar]

Feh... yet another reason Condorcet is confusing and annoying. Voting for somebody and having them not at the top of your list is horribly counterintuitive, and I suppose I made the wrong assumption.

I don't think Gaspar is actually trying to find scum. He's dissembling. I found two serious anomalies in his recent posts, plus a boatload of fluff, and I am waiting to see who else picks up on it.

Try me. I know this is going to come across as OMGUS, and part of it is, but what little good feeling I've had towards you lessens every time you baselessly assert that I'm scum -- even moreso when you baselessly assert that I'm scum with Sablehart. The last time I saw you go "I found something wrong with so-and-so" and ran the town around trying to find what that something was, you were scum.

A handful of points I'd like you to address:
-What exactly do you think of Sable's claim? I don't believe you ever answered Thesp's question about how you evaluated it.
-What in my lengthy post is "fluff"?
-Why do you keep trying to tie me to different players? D1 and early D2 you found me suspect (and posited Glorkspar/Pooky at the start of D2). You then expanded this to Gaspar-Pooky-Thesp. Then you posited Gaspar/OGML. Once OGML is dead and gone, you threw out Glork-Pooky-Thesp again. Then you suddenly went to Glork/Sable. I guess what I want to know is:
A_ Why do you insist on trying to pair me as scum with different people?
B) Why in your mind do I get around more than the neighborhood slut?
C) If you've so solidly thought I'm scum since late D1 and keep trying to find my scumbuddies, why did it take you until late in Day Three to actually vote me?
-What exactly did you mean when you stated that one of CKD/OGML was certainly scum, and why did you drop that theory like a high school prom date?
-Given your "Pooky/Gaspar/Thesp" positioning, what do you think of Thesp's assertion that I'm distinctly protown? Of mine that he is distinctly protown?

If you're town, I don't know what the hell you're smoking (but after the game, I'd love for you to hook me up with some of it). If you're scum, I just want to warn you now that I'm going to fight you tooth and nail so hard that nobody will have good feelings about you for the rest of the game. I

will

make you overextend yourself trying to get me mislynched, and you

will

fall in my wake. And really, I'm okay with a one-for-one trade, so please. Repeatedly poke the bear again. It

won't

end well for you.


Michel: In CT:DiF, all nightkills were listed as "Murdered," regardless of source. Also, there is zero evidence to indicate that SCAPE (or anyone else) could have infiltrated wherever {IH, Sarc, NibblerTwins} were hiding, and no indication that any of them have escaped, aside from Twins' corpse itself. You have zero basis for flatly asserting A) that SCAPE has has no kills or; B) NibblerTwins was the first SCAPEkill. I don't know if that's what MBL didn't like about that post, but your conclusion seems to come from nowhere.

[Xtoxm]

Scape indeed seems to be a scumgroup, but I don't think there are any kills that can be attributed to them yet. FaerieLord, Flameaxe and Pooky all got the same description (murdered), so are likely to be made by the same killer. It's possible that the dead of Nibbler Twins can be attributed to them, though.

Shit, this is bad too. Really bad. The amazing thing is, I don't think I've ever seen Gaspar protect a scumpartner this WIFOM blatantly, so I doubt he and Sableheart are aligned. There are enough things to point out at this point that it doesn't make sense for me to wait much longer on what I've spotted, but I'd like others to take a look at Gaspar/Sableheart please before I let my arrows fly.

I don't see it. They both look town to me. G strongly so.

[MrBuddyLee]

For starters, see if you can match up game data with Gaspar's claim that he thought Thesp+Sensfan were masons until today. Then ask yourself why someone would write a pair of people off as scum for an imaginary reason. (answer: they wouldn't)

Then, ask yourself what this:

I find the existence of a redirector-type role to be very highly unlikely.

implies.

Then look at this timeline:

* MM Lynch >>>>> Niv Lynch
* I'm thinking that both Niv and Mach-Maf should claim.
* Right. I am not at all a fan of a Nivlynch (as indicated by my Condorcets), but since it's very likely going to be one of them.... mise well.
* Vote: FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, Sens
* niv claims
SUPER DUPER CONFIRM Vote: FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, Sens, Michel, Rogueben, {people}, Vollkan, Pooky, Machiavellian-Mafia, Niv, No Lynch, Gaspar
* Vote: Thesp

1) It looks like he knew Niv was roled scum and was way too ready to believe Niv's claim. In fact, he seems to have "believed it" before Niv actually claimed, and primed the Faerielord bus instead.
2) A vanilla claim by MM was easily believed
3) After the primary piece of evidence one could conceivably think points to a Thesp-Sensfan masonry, Gaspar still votes those two top of his list.
4) Thesp goes from Glork's #1 suspect to most trusted, and I go to #1 suspect, with the only significant game event in the interim being my OGML comments and Thesp's vote for me. It looks like Gaspar knows OGML is going to come up scum and he prepares for the next day's lynch, while pretending he thinks I'm a cop with a guilty on OGML. But why'd Glork vote me, and then move his vote to BBMARS, NOT OGML if he thought I was a cop?

The only thing I can see making sense is if Gaspar is a daycop who got an innocent on Thesp early yesterday. Otherwise, the story about a masonry is a lie covering for that bizarre behavior.

I don't like Gaspar's fluffy attack on vollkan.

And yes, Gaspar has nailed what I found fishy about Sableheart's post.

I'm going back to bed, but I've stirred the pot. These are the things I have been thinking, and while they may or may not be right, something stinks to me.

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Gaspar: 2 (curiouskarmadog, MrBuddyLee)
vollkan: 2 (Thesp, Xtoxm)
NabakovNabakov: 1 (Gaspar)
Rogueben: 1 (MichelSableheart)

[Gaspar]

For starters, see if you can match up game data with Gaspar's claim that he thought Thesp+Sensfan were masons until today. Then ask yourself why someone would write a pair of people off as scum for an imaginary reason. (answer: they wouldn't)

I didn't think that "up until today." IIRC, I got that notion sometime yesterday, after glancing at early posts and seeing Thesp have SensFan at the very bottom of his condorcet.

Then, ask yourself what this:

I find the existence of a redirector-type role to be very highly unlikely.

implies.

Simple. Mith does not strike me as the kind of mod to include such a role. I have played and read several of his games, and I don't recall ever seeing something as such.

Then look at this timeline:

* MM Lynch >>>>> Niv Lynch
* I'm thinking that both Niv and Mach-Maf should claim.
* Right. I am not at all a fan of a Nivlynch (as indicated by my Condorcets), but since it's very likely going to be one of them.... mise well.
* Vote: FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, Sens
* niv claims
SUPER DUPER CONFIRM Vote: FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, Sens, Michel, Rogueben, {people}, Vollkan, Pooky, Machiavellian-Mafia, Niv, No Lynch, Gaspar
* Vote: Thesp

The first three comments (MM > Niv, both should claim, re-iteration that both should claim) came because those two were neck and neck for lynch candidates, we were rapidly approaching the deadline, and it looked as though a lynch on one of the two was inevitable. My comments there are more than reasonable.

MM claimed and I meta'd "Roger Moore" to be a very unlikely fakeclaim (just as others had questioned the likelihood of him making it up). I moved to Fae and kept Thesp up on my list due to his general lack of contribution and his awful "I don't like Glork's response to Voll" point.

Niv claimed, and I believed it. Not much to say there. There were protown two-shot abilities in CT:DiF, and I was willing to wait and see on Niv. I already saw him as protown, so this is hardly a stretch.

1) It looks like he knew Niv was roled scum and was way too ready to believe Niv's claim. In fact, he seems to have "believed it" before Niv actually claimed, and primed the Faerielord bus instead.

Explain

HOW

in your opinion "it loos like I knew Niv was roled scum." I didn't "believe anything" before he claimed. I just thought he was a townie being railed to an easy lynch because he's a bumbling fool. That has

NOTHING

to do with "believing a claim" before it happened.

2) A vanilla claim by MM was easily believed

Do you think the average scum player would make up an obscure vanilla claim on D1 when he was the leading votegetter?

3) After the primary piece of evidence one could conceivably think points to a Thesp-Sensfan masonry, Gaspar still votes those two top of his list.

I told you, I didn't notice this until recently, when I glanced at some of Thesp's early-game posts. You're assuming a timetable for my "Thesp/Sens masonry" that is simply incorrect, and you're using it to push a bogus point on me.

4) Thesp goes from Glork's #1 suspect to most trusted, and I go to #1 suspect, with the only significant game event in the interim being my OGML comments and Thesp's vote for me. It looks like Gaspar knows OGML is going to come up scum and he prepares for the next day's lynch, while pretending he thinks I'm a cop with a guilty on OGML. But why'd Glork vote me, and then move his vote to BBMARS, NOT OGML if he thought I was a cop?

First of all, I couldn't have known that OGML would turn up scum, considering he was town. I'm going to assume you made a typo here and meant "knows OGML will turn up town." Again,

you provide no evidence leading to your conclusion

, simply stating that "it looks like I know" things. Go ahead and point out exactly what led you to believe my insincerity, and I guarantee you I will blast it to shreds.
Secondly, you going from suspect to trusted (with me voting OGML) to suspect again is explained, as I indicated, by the fact that somewhere along the line I thought you had a result on OGML.
Thirdly, you

once again

assume a timetable for my observations that is incorrect. When you say "he voted for BBMars not OGML even though he said he thought I was a cop," that's complete bullshit. Obviously me suspecting you and voting BBMars indicates that I had not yet read you as having a result. Post 522 is full of strong language that suggests a result. THE VERY NEXT POST is when I switch to OGML.

The only thing I can see making sense is if Gaspar is a daycop who got an innocent on Thesp early yesterday. Otherwise, the story about a masonry is a lie covering for that bizarre behavior.

Rolefishing attempt noted.

I don't like Gaspar's fluffy attack on vollkan.

I don't like your factually incorrect attack on me. Nice to meet you.

[NabakovNabakov]

The fact that Nabs goes to Mach in the face of a rising Nivwagon is also a point against him. The flip-flop on Xtox is interesting, though. He goes from the top of Nabs' list to Nabs defending him outright.

How does third in an early condorcet translate to "top of Nabs' list"? Why are you pigeonholing me?


MBL v. Gaspar makes my brain hurt. I'll let it stew, reread, and come back with something worthwhile.

[Gaspar]

I'm... not really sure what I was thinking there. Perhaps I saw the vote:xtox in the quoted post and got my wires crossed. Sorry 'bout that.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't like Gaspar's fluffy attack on vollkan.

I don't like your factually incorrect attack on me. Nice to meet you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcsVPis1iNs

Simple. Mith does not strike me as the kind of mod to include such a role. I have played and read several of his games, and I don't recall ever seeing something as such.

You haven't held this belief consistently over the course of this game.

I call bullshit. Would you care to revise your remarks?

I told you, I didn't notice this until recently, when I glanced at some of Thesp's early-game posts.

Did you glance at the rest of Thesp's and Sensfan's play to see if that made sense?

Cause it doesn't

, and therefore I don't think you're telling the truth about that.

Your Niv protection was multifaceted

:

* 30 hrs from deadline we need 8 to lynch.
* M-M has 5, Niv 4, Xtomx 4, Faerielord 1
* You take an action pretty much designed to ensure a Condorcet lynch (Move off of M-M and not to Niv or Xtomx)
* The mod lists the Condorcet winner as Niv
* You post a huge defense of Niv and move him below M-M on your Condorcet
* Nabnab and Thesp join you in defense of Niv
* Mod posts a Condorcet with M-M getting axed
* M-M is Condorcet lynched as town

Gaspar saved Niv and doomed M-M while trying to make it look like he suspected Faerielord.

Then the next day you do your strange song and dance about how you're so sure Sableheart is scum and then you unvote him for a vanilla claim. Your play is scattershot and suspect, and you nearly had me mislynched yesterday. Some of your play today looks like attempts to obfuscate/bus in case you go down for your Niv protection. I say obfuscate instead of scumhunt because it's not holding together logically.

Your attempt to portray me as a rolefisher reeks of desperation. I have no desire to know--I simply stated the only logical explanation for your play unless you're scum. And I don't think you're a daycop.

And I'm not waiting for people to pipe up so they can make my cases for me. I was waiting because I wanted to see whether there are any other Innocents out there catching the obvious.

[Gaspar]

Simple. Mith does not strike me as the kind of mod to include such a role. I have played and read several of his games, and I don't recall ever seeing something as such.

You haven't held this belief consistently over the course of this game.

I call bullshit. Would you care to revise your remarks?

What the hell are you talking about? I care to revise nothing. The only bullshit you smell is your own.

I told you, I didn't notice this until recently, when I glanced at some of Thesp's early-game posts.

Did you glance at the rest of Thesp's and Sensfan's play to see if that made sense?

Cause it doesn't

, and therefore I don't think you're telling the truth about that.

No, I didn't. That's why I first thought they might be masons. Early today, when I looked over their posts more extensively, that's when I realized that my brief assumption was wrong,

AS I INDICATED IN MY POST:

Also, I'm taking destructor/Thesp away from the very bottom of my list next time I condorcetify. I thought I saw a mason connection between Sens/LmL/des and Thesp but upon a quick skim of their posts, I no longer believe that connection exists.

Your Niv protection was multifaceted

:

* 30 hrs from deadline we need 8 to lynch.
* M-M has 5, Niv 4, Xtomx 4, Faerielord 1
* You take an action pretty much designed to ensure a Condorcet lynch (Move off of M-M and not to Niv or Xtomx)
* The mod lists the Condorcet winner as Niv
* You post a huge defense of Niv and move him below M-M on your Condorcet
* Nabnab and Thesp join you in defense of Niv
* Mod posts a Condorcet with M-M getting axed
* M-M is Condorcet lynched as town

Gaspar saved Niv and doomed M-M while trying to make it look like he suspected Faerielord.

I think you're misusing the word "multifaceted" here. Either way, yes, I protected Niv. I thought he was protown. I'm not trying to deny that at all; in fact, I've stated multiple times that I was flat-out wrong about him. And while you're trying to stomp this home as your sole legitimate point against me, I've debunked your other claims thus far. Why have you not answered

ANY

of the questions I've asked you?

Then the next day you do your strange song and dance about how you're so sure Sableheart is scum and then you unvote him for a vanilla claim.

Again, the claim struck me as genuine. Again, you have yet to weigh in on how you evaluated the claim and its process.

Your play is scattershot and suspect, and you nearly had me mislynched yesterday.

My play is indeed scattershot.
It is not the least bit suspect.
I nearly had you

properly

lynched yesterday.

Some of your play today looks like attempts to obfuscate/bus in case you go down for your Niv protection.

Not on your life. First of all, I sincerely doubt that I will "go down for my Niv protection" today.
Secondly,

yet again

with the unfouned "you look like you're doing X" statements. NOBODY with half a brain will buy your baseless assertions at face value -- that much I can guarantee.

I say obfuscate instead of scumhunt because it's not holding together logically.

Sure it is. All of the "mislogic" you've tried to present so far, I've already rejected.

Your attempt to portray me as a rolefisher reeks of desperation. I have no desire to know--I simply stated the only logical explanation for your play unless you're scum. And I don't think you're a daycop.

Bull. You were looking for a reaction that could give you something to work with. I flat-out rejected, and now you're falling back on accusing me of "desperation."

I say that the fact that your arguments are getting this ridiculous, unfounded, and off-base reek of desperation. So there.

[MichelSableheart]

Michel: In CT:DiF, all nightkills were listed as "Murdered," regardless of source. Also, there is zero evidence to indicate that SCAPE (or anyone else) could have infiltrated wherever {IH, Sarc, NibblerTwins} were hiding, and no indication that any of them have escaped, aside from Twins' corpse itself. You have zero basis for flatly asserting A) that SCAPE has has no kills or; B) NibblerTwins was the first SCAPEkill. I don't know if that's what MBL didn't like about that post, but your conclusion seems to come from nowhere.

Ah, that's a detail I missed. It's still extremely unlikely that SCAPE killed FL though, and very unlikely that SCAPE killed Flameaxe. And Pooky also doesn't look like an obvious mafia kill. I admit that I don't have any evidence, but I do believe that SCAPE not having a kill or NibblerTwins being the first SCAPE kill are likely explanations for the deads we have seen thus far.

Gaspar, please answer this quote.

I find the existence of a redirector-type role to be very highly unlikely. The scums obviously did not kill themselves Night One. So, yes. I'd give about 95% that Fae was killed by a nonSCAPE kill.

Does the fact that Niv claimed to be redirected from Pooky to RogueBen has any influence on your belief of the existence of a redirector? You believe Niv targetted RogueBen directly? Or that he lied about his ability as well, and used RogueBen to confirm him?

I find it extremely strange that you claim to have believed throughout the game that a redirector type role was very highly unlikely, yet you believed Niv (who claimed to have been redirected from Pooky to RogueBen) to be pro-town.

[MrBuddyLee]

You haven't held this belief consistently over the course of this game.

I call bullshit. Would you care to revise your remarks?

What the hell are you talking about? I care to revise nothing. The only bullshit you smell is your own.

Why didn't you raise this point about Mith and role redirectors when Niv claimed his result to start D2?

I targeted one pooky the magical bear last night, and well,

was for some reason redirected to rougeben

. never the less, using my "show biz" connections, and aparentally my knowlede of people in san fansisco, i found out rougeben's role name.

So my main reason for voting you was that I noted your "situational concern". When the existence of a redirector protected Niv, you said nothing. Now that Niv's dead, you conveniently argue the opposite.

Simple. Mith does not strike me as the kind of mod to include such a role. I have played and read several of his games, and I don't recall ever seeing something as such.

So I'll ask again--would you care to revise and extend your remarks?

[MrBuddyLee]

Also, your carelessness in basing late D2 alignment suppositions on a single Condorcet vote at the start of D1 is unlike you. In the wider context of sketchy Gaspar play, I call shenanigans and don't buy your Thesp-destructor story.

[MrBuddyLee]

I find it extremely strange that you claim to have believed throughout the game that a redirector type role was very highly unlikely, yet you believed Niv (who claimed to have been redirected from Pooky to RogueBen) to be pro-town.

Brownie points, even if you're a bit late to the game.

[MichelSableheart]

Not late, I brought up the fact that Niv claimed to be redirected in post #844, before you started your attack on Gaspar for it. However, I understood Gaspar's remark to mean "I find the existance of a redirector very unlikely at the moment", and asked him what his conclusions were on Rogueben based on Niv's claim and that belief. Only when he claimed to have held that belief throughout the game (in post #884, quote below) does the question rise why he believed Niv's claim in the first place.

Simple. Mith does not strike me as the kind of mod to include such a role. I have played and read several of his games, and I don't recall ever seeing something as such.

You haven't held this belief consistently over the course of this game. I call bullshit. Would you care to revise your remarks?

What the hell are you talking about? I care to revise nothing. The only bullshit you smell is your own.

[Gaspar]

To be frank, it never registered to me. I realize I've been careless, which is another reason I embarked on a re-read to begin with.

Now that you mention it, Niv's claim is interesting. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing a scumbag would simply make up. Yet I see little protown rationale for redirecting Niv when the whole purpose of him using his ability is to confirm him. If he

hadn't

been told that he had been redirected, he would have been damned right there and then. And while it would've worked out in our favor, screwing over a claimed information role doesn't seem protown, even if one doesn't particularly believe or trust the player in question.

I think it's safe to say that if there's a redirector role out there, it's non-SCAPE. I don't like the idea of anti-town redirectors; I think they're rather overpowered (even if they have limited shots), and as indicated above, I have a hard time finding a justifiable protown rationale for redirecting Niv, unless the redirector knew that Niv would be told he was redirected. Perhaps Niv lied about it. Perhaps not. I can't honestly say otherwise.

Aside from that, I suppose I'm just eating my earlier words. This has not been a pretty game by any means.

[Xtoxm]

I don't think Niv was lying about that...I think there are better things to fake claim as scum, I think he was probably telling the truth there and did get redirected.

And I agree, said redirector would probably be town.

[Rogueben]

I cannot understand why a pro-town redirector would have targeted Niv. I do know that his result was correct though so I can't see any other plausible reason.

Gaspar's oversight is a little worrying but not a lot of people commented on the redirection yesterday so I'm not seeing a whole lot in it.

[Xtoxm]

I cannot understand why a pro-town redirector would have targeted Niv. I do know that his result was correct though so I can't see any other plausible reason.

Gaspar's oversight is a little worrying but not a lot of people commented on the redirection yesterday so I'm not seeing a whole lot in it.

Actually, that's a good point...Hadn't thought of that.

...I know this is uncommon...But...Pooky could have been some kind of Nexus role. Or some other unintentional form of redirection?

[Xtoxm]

Or maybe Niv was just trying to make RB look bad if and when he died. He knew RB was going to confirm him, so he'd be in the clear (for time being) and thought that we'd jump on RB when he came up SCAPE (presumably scum, though Grey won't confirm )

Or he was just completely bullshitting and RB is scum, but I doubt this scenario.

[Rogueben]

I'm not sure that Niv had the kind of forethought to pull off something like that Xtoxm. He strikes me as the kind of player who wouldn't be thinking of making gambits like that. It is possible I guess but highly unlikely.

[destructor]

Um, I'm pretty sure Niv was part of a scum group, which would implying that it probably wasn't just him alone thinking up strategies and gambits at night.

That exchange between MBL and Gaspar probably put Gaspar up a few notches on my yet to be made condorcet list.

I should be honest. I still haven't finished reading the rest of day 2 or the start of day 3, which does have something to do with me pussyfooting around right now. If I don't get it done within 24 hours, hold it against me by all means.

[Thesp]

Given that you're concerned more about finding bad logic than finding bad guys,

I was just about to say the same thing. I cannot imagine why he's not at the top of everyone's list/vote.

My concern is not simply "finding bad logic". I hold the view that the most reliable indicators of scumminess are usually found in people's reasoning and justification of their arguments.

Then why aren't you using them to that end? You spend significant energy in interrogation-like posts and

don't vote

. You spend time on "scores" as if they're supposed to indicate you're actually more likely to lynch some people over others, then do nothing with them.

Vote. Now. I want to see a 3-person (minimum) condorcet from you.

I don't think Gaspar is actually trying to find scum. He's dissembling. I found two serious anomalies in his recent posts, plus a boatload of fluff, and I am waiting to see who else picks up on it.

No. If you think you see something (and have the audacity to allude to it), post it. I seem to recall you taking this tact once before, now, when was it?

There are enough things to point out at this point that it doesn't make sense for me to wait much longer on what I've spotted, but I'd like others to take a look at Gaspar/Sableheart please before I let my arrows fly.

If you are seriously considering a Gaspar/Sableheart pair, you need professional help or a vote.

FOS: MrBuddyLee

.

HOLY FRICK GASPAR SAW THE SAME THING ABOUT MBL'S SUGGESTION OF HAVING OTHER PEOPLE FINDING INFO. CREEPY.

While we try to figure out whether or not there were two wagons on scum yesterday, let's not forget vollkan needs to die.

[vollkan]

@anybody: Maybe I have missed something, but precisely what gives rise to the implication that there is a redirector here?

Then why aren't you using them to that end? You spend significant energy in interrogation-like posts and don't vote. You spend time on "scores" as if they're supposed to indicate you're actually more likely to lynch some people over others, then do nothing with them.

Thesp, I've gone through and given by opinion on everybody and a ranking. I am happy to vote, and shall do so based on my rankings. I don't have an objection to voting; it just doesn't strike me as a particularly important thing to do whilst I am still in a process of decision-making. I'm not the type to vote-hop. Best and most recent example is Mini 562. I only cast two serious votes in that

entire

game (non-serious votes were a random vote and a jokey vote that I made to show that unexplained votes are absolutely useless). In Mini 542, I only have 6 votes all game.

It's not out of any actual game-theory opinion that I am so slow to vote (ie. I don't have any objection to voting); it's just that it usually doesn't occur to me to vote until I feel certain that I want somebody to hang.

Vote. Now. I want to see a 3-person (minimum) condorcet from you.

Good manners would not go astray

Vote:

MBL

, destructor, Xtoxm, {Rogueben, Thesp, Sable, Gaspar}, {NN, CKD}

[Xtoxm]

Niv claimed redirected from Pooky to RB.