California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[curiouskarmadog]

One interesting post is that he asks Niv: "Why are you still trying to get me lynched?" when the post in question was a Condorcet list by Niv in a post attacking pooky where X was placed second.

what post number was this?

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Gaspar: 1 (MrBuddyLee)
NabakovNabakov: 1 (Gaspar)
Rogueben: 1 (MichelSableheart)
vollkan: 1 (Thesp)

[vollkan]

View Xtoxm in isolation, oldest first, and it's post number 104.

[Xtoxm]

vote volkan

[Xtoxm]

ugh, the minute I put you down on my list, you ping the dar again. Why must there be two groups of three?..why cant there be just a SK?

CKD, why/how is this scummy?

I looked up DC on wiki and saw they have 3 members. 3 scum is too low for a 20p game, so I thought perhaps another scum group of 3. Didn't know about old memebrs etc, I think MS's suggestion of 5 in one group is more likely. The killing role could be an SK, but his kills have seemed more vig like, all round...

[vollkan]

vote volkan

Reasons?

Or are you voting in pre-emption of somebody else making up reasons?

[Thesp]

vote: Gaspar

I know you were on about this yesterday, but I still don't get how you think Gaspar is scum. Can you enlighten me?

[curiouskarmadog]

View Xtoxm in isolation, oldest first, and it's post number 104.

why did you say this at this point (05/08)?

[curiouskarmadog]

.something about gaspar's relation to Niv in my mind is setting off alarms..also the fact that he avoided my question yesterday about Niv and answered it with a (shrug) is not sitting right with me...

also, getting vibes off others, so this will probably change.

Vote {Gaspar

, Nab}, {Rogue, vollkan, Xtoxm}, {MS, MBL}, {everyone else}, CKD

[Xtoxm]

vote volkan

Reasons?

Or are you voting in pre-emption of somebody else making up reasons?

I don't like your analysis of me. It doesn't look genuine.

[Gaspar]

"Quick" (relatively speaking) skim through Day One. With the info of Fae and Niv both being scum, there's probably some VERY good info to come from them.



-I still don't like this from vollkan

9) If I make a mistake somewhere I will point out that I have made tremendous cock-ups as town in a number of games. If you choose to entirely ignore these meta-references, your % ranking will rise.

It's really the only point that I find genuinely

scummy

(as opposed to just imposing idiotic gameplay preferences), because it gives him an out for... well, just about anything that doesn't jive. The fact that he states he'll bump up his % ranking for anybody who ignores it is beyond ridiculous.

You are accountable for your mistakes. If you don't want people to ding you or suspect you for your mistakes, work harder to fix them and to avoid making them in the future.

Interesting interaction between Niv/FL. FL votes Niv, Niv votes himself, then Niv votes FL.

Post 92 by rogueben still bothers me.

SensFan with a bad bandwagon vote in Post 111

113 by Nabs bothers me, too. There are a number of reasons that one's second-to-top suspect might vote for the top suspect. Does the word "distancing" mean anything to you, Nabs? Sens' response is quite reasonable.

Thesp's reaction to my reaction to Voll's ground rules still bothers me. It's one of those "you know better and I think you should know that you know better" things.

This post by Niv makes me think Xtoxm is very likely NOT SCAPE. He also puckers up to Sens' rear, which is a point in Sens' favor.

149 contributes to Xtox's non-SCAPEness.

Post 159, FL takes a potshot at Xtox, too. I correctly pointed this out in 160, which first caused me to look hard at FL.

If Xtox turns out to be SCAPE, I won't just stick my foot in my mouth. I'll stick my whole leg down there.

FL's Post 165 is likely the best info we will get from him. His list in particular is interesting:

So thus, my list from scummiest to towniest is as follows (I won't vote yet since I don't want to put anyone at -1)

Xtoxm
SensFan
Niv
volkan
Rogueben
MrBuddyLee
Thesp
MichelSableheart
NabakovNabakov
BBMars
Gaspar
Machiavellian-Mafia
PookyTheMagicalBear
FaerieLord

Pooky, Mach, and Mars -- all town -- are right near the bottom of his list. I know I'm town, but nobody else can reasonably make that assumption yet. This supports a theory that I held after Fae's original banter with Niv -- that he's more likely to distance from his scumbuddies than not. Nab is fifth from the bottom (aside from Fae himself), followed by Michel.

Xtox is obviously protown, jury's out on Sens so far. Niv was scum, I'm undecided on Voll, and Rogueben look iffy. MBL is slightly protown, Thesp looks very protown.


If SCAPE is indeed just the Dixie Chicks, we can expect 1-3 more scumbags (Natalie Maines, Laura Lynch, Robin Lynn Macy). Based on a twenty-player game, ~5 seems reasonable. Aside from Niv, I'd expect one player to be middle-of-the-road on Fae's list, and another to be in the top five. Whether there's a fifth SCAPEr or a differently-aligned-scum is yet to be determined.


Very interesting Fae-Voll interaction. Fae rawrs the same meta-point that I didn't like earlier. Fae backs off and nothing is done (much like the early banter w/Niv), which makes me think "distancing" more than syphoning suspicion towards a townie.

Vollkan, could you explain why your Post 188 is almost an extact re-hash of Pooky's Post 186?

In contrast to Fae's behavior, Niv's "Xtox and Pooky are probably scum together" indicates that he's just content to go after townies. He responds to Fae's attacks against him, but only to say that they're not very good.

After Pooky annihilates Niv's theory, Voll and Fae both pile onto Niv. Interesting stuff there.

Nabs' response to MBL is interesting. MBL asks why Nabs dings him for his scumhunting but doesn't include him in his condorcet. Nabs goes "oh, you're right' and adjusts in POst 222. The fact that Nabs goes to Mach in the face of a rising Nivwagon is also a point against him. The flip-flop on Xtox is interesting, though. He goes from the top of Nabs' list to Nabs defending him outright.

The first half of Post 237 and Sable's response in Post 243 are interesting -- somewhat parallel to MBL's interrogation of Nabs. Sable states that most of his points against Xtox aren't indicative of Xtox being scum; they are just examples of anti-town behavior.

Sable incorrectly states that Xtox is atop his list to help ensure a condorcet winner. The vote count at the top of the same page lists Niv as the condorcet winner. For somebody who is big on everybody understanding condorcet, this is somewhat alarming to me, especially with Niv having died as scum. In the first CT game (which I know Sable read), we looked for ways to subtlely manipulate condorcet to get what we wanted. He did explain that the vote was there as a slap on the wrist, but that seems slightly silly when he's allegedly so damned keen on making sure we have a condorcet winner. I'd like to see a thorough explanation of Sable's thought processes throughout this exchange (read over all of Page 10, Sable) before deciding how exactly I feel about this.

Another thing that's noteworthy about 243 is that Niv/Fae are the top of his list -- Fae genuinely and Niv to ensure a condorcet lynch. This is a strong point in Michel's favor, IMHO.

The condorcet in 247 by Niv reads: OMGUS, OMGUS, OMGUS, OMGUS, {others}, Niv, No Lynch.

250 by MBL, as usual, seems more self-absorbed than most. He responds to Sable's point against him (and goes as far as to vote for Sable), but doesn't say a damned thing about Mach, Niv, Xtox, or Fae. He does throw out another tangential suspicion, asserting that Sable/Voll are scum together.

Sable is still obsessed with condorceting. Could you please suspend reality for just one moment and just

pretend

that condorcets don't exist, and focus on trying to acheive a natural lynch?

Ugh. In retrospect, the Pooky/MM spat makes them both look so obviously protown.

Classic example of why condorceting is dangerous.

MBL: You obviously think I'm scum. Please evaluate my attempts to get a D1 lynch on Fae (scum) as opposed to Niv (scum) or Mach (town).

Michel: Consider the end of D1, where you voted for Fae but put Mach above on your condorcet lynch. If you had just voted for Fae, somebody else could have jumped to him, tipping the scales in favor of Fae and resulting in an outright scumlynch D1. It's obvious that "ensuring a condorcet lynch on somebody" was your motive, but why are you the one so willing to give in to lynch somebody whom you don't suspect as much? Wouldn't the more protown thing to be "try harder to convince everyone to lynch whom you believe is scummy"?


God, that turned out to be a 2.5 hour read/post. Not what I intended, but I think it'll stir up the pot quite nicely.

[Gaspar]

.something about gaspar's relation to Niv in my mind is setting off alarms..also the fact that he avoided my question yesterday about Niv and answered it with a (shrug) is not sitting right with me...

Fae going out of his way to try to rail a lynch on Niv threw me off and put Niv in the "solidly protown" category. I've always seen Niv as being something of a Village Idiot, and if you'd bother to read the rest of his posts, they're either "yah i dont liek this" or OMGUS. I still don't see what you expected me to say about it, and I generally focus on people whom I believe are scum rather than those whom I believe are town.

[vollkan]

View Xtoxm in isolation, oldest first, and it's post number 104.

why did you say this at this point (05/08)?

I don't understand the question.

I read through X and found the post. I thought it was interesting, so I brought it up; not any different to any other post I re/discover in my review.

I don't like your analysis of me. It doesn't look genuine.

Thankyou for giving me your conclusion. Now give me the reasons which led you to it.

9) If I make a mistake somewhere I will point out that I have made tremendous cock-ups as town in a number of games. If you choose to entirely ignore these meta-references, your % ranking will rise.

It's really the only point that I find genuinely scummy (as opposed to just imposing idiotic gameplay preferences), because it gives him an out for... well, just about anything that doesn't jive. The fact that he states he'll bump up his % ranking for anybody who ignores it is beyond ridiculous.

It doesn't give me an out. The main reason I post it is that (see CKD's post above for an example) people sometimes get this idea that I always play really well as town, when there are some circumstances (and I am desperate to work out what they are) that make me fail miserably.

I am just trying to implore people to not judge me based on any preconceived idea about my meta-style, and I think it only benefits scum for people to do that.

Vollkan, could you explain why your Post 188 is almost an extact re-hash of Pooky's Post 186?

Simple.

Pooky had asked X to do two things:
1) Detail thought processes here;
2) Provide examples of such processes in other games.

In X's post, he only did the second. Obviously, I didn't expect that he would finish the first one so quickly, but I wanted to remind him to do it, because I was interested in seeing the results.

[Gaspar]

ugh, the minute I put you down on my list, you ping the dar again. Why must there be two groups of three?..why cant there be just a SK?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What the hell went to

this

assumption?

It doesn't give me an out. The main reason I post it is that (see CKD's post above for an example) people sometimes get this idea that I always play really well as town, when there are some circumstances (and I am desperate to work out what they are) that make me fail miserably.

Given that you're concerned more about finding bad logic than finding bad guys, that anybody assumes you play "really well as town" surprises me.

Out of curiosity: How many people in this game have you played with before? (...and approximately how frequentlly? Once? A couple of times?)

Simple.

Pooky had asked X to do two things:
1) Detail thought processes here;
2) Provide examples of such processes in other games.

In X's post, he only did the second. Obviously, I didn't expect that he would finish the first one so quickly, but I wanted to remind him to do it, because I was interested in seeing the results.

Right, I could've guessed that you'd answer as such on my own.

So why did you feel the need to butt in after less than twenty minutes after Xtox had answered really the only part that he could possibly have responded to in nineteen minutes? I get a feeling of "I want to look helpful without actually doing anything" from this. The "reminder" seems completely unnecessary, given that A) he's obviously read and understood the post; and B) he's already indicated willingness to comply by throwing out his other games as references beforehand.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Check that... eleven minutes to Xtox's response.

[Xtoxm]

Thankyou for giving me your conclusion. Now give me the reasons which led you to it.

Well I thought those were the reasons with the conclusion that are likely scum/deserve my vote.

How do you want me to expand?

G - I've played with volkan a couple times, not seen him as town.

[Gaspar]

The question was intended for Vollkan, btw, as he's the one talking about diffusing meta (that I know I've never heard of, as I've never played with him).

[Xtoxm]

Sorry, thought you might have wanted to hear from people who played him.

[Gaspar]

Oh. I guess, but I mean, Voll can answer for the entire playerlist in one post.

[vollkan]

Given that you're concerned more about finding bad logic than finding bad guys, that anybody assumes you play "really well as town" surprises me.

Out of curiosity: How many people in this game have you played with before? (...and approximately how frequentlly? Once? A couple of times?)

My concern is not simply "finding bad logic". I hold the view that the most reliable indicators of scumminess are usually found in people's reasoning and justification of their arguments.

curiouskarmadog - Frequently.

destructor, replacing LoudmouthLee N2, SensFan D2 - I know I played with Destructor in Stargate Sg-1, and I may have played with him in others.

Gaspar - Never.

MichelSableheart - Never.

MrBuddyLee - Never.

NabakovNabakov - One completed - Open 59.

Rogueben - I think I may have played with Ben more than once, but the only game that sticks in memory is Mini 542.

Thesp - Never.

Xtoxm - I know I have played with Xtoxm a few times before, I can't recall which ones off the top of my head though

Right, I could've guessed that you'd answer as such on my own.

So why did you feel the need to butt in after less than twenty minutes after Xtox had answered really the only part that he could possibly have responded to in nineteen minutes? I get a feeling of "I want to look helpful without actually doing anything" from this. The "reminder" seems completely unnecessary, given that A) he's obviously read and understood the post; and B) he's already indicated willingness to comply by throwing out his other games as references beforehand.

The reminder does not seem completely unnecessary to me. The fact that X did not even make passing mention of the request that he post his reasons suggested that there was the potential that a) he missed it, or b) he was shirking it. Thus, I reminded him clearly. I didn't think that X had necessarily missed/ignored but, as I said before, I wanted to remind him, in case he had.

[destructor]

It's obvious that "ensuring a condorcet lynch on somebody" was your motive, but why are you the one so willing to give in to lynch somebody whom you don't suspect as much? Wouldn't the more protown thing to be "try harder to convince everyone to lynch whom you believe is scummy"?

This is pretty much exactly why I bought up your switch to MM and back to FL at deadline Day 1. I find it odd that you pushed the FL wagon when it was pretty clear that he wouldn't get lynched. It's not helping heaps that the alternative to MM at the time you voted him was Niv.

I can see how being suspicious of FL may explain why you were opposed to a Niv lynch, and so why it follows that you'd rather see MM win the codorcet. But I still find your late push of the FL lynch questionable, mostly because it seems to me like you could have done exactly the same thing before you ever switched to MM at all.

That said, your case on FL was terribly damning and if you're SCAPE, that was some hardcore bussing. Nothing I'm ready to rule out just yet, though - as town or scum, it gave you a very good reason not to suspect Niv.

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm - I know I have played with Xtoxm a few times before, I can't recall which ones off the top of my head though

iPick and that open nightless. Surprised you forgot about that one so quick.

NN was also in iPick, btw.

[Xtoxm]

Gaspar - You're long post is very good, though I disagree with your point about RB...I don't see that as scummy. (post 92)

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't think Gaspar is actually trying to find scum. He's dissembling. I found two serious anomalies in his recent posts, plus a boatload of fluff, and I am waiting to see who else picks up on it.

[MrBuddyLee]

Scape indeed seems to be a scumgroup, but I don't think there are any kills that can be attributed to them yet. FaerieLord, Flameaxe and Pooky all got the same description (murdered), so are likely to be made by the same killer. It's possible that the dead of Nibbler Twins can be attributed to them, though.

Shit, this is bad too. Really bad. The amazing thing is, I don't think I've ever seen Gaspar protect a scumpartner this WIFOM blatantly, so I doubt he and Sableheart are aligned. There are enough things to point out at this point that it doesn't make sense for me to wait much longer on what I've spotted, but I'd like others to take a look at Gaspar/Sableheart please before I let my arrows fly.