Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown - {GAME OVER}

[scotmany12]

He is voting for ssk because he has not done anything besides make a list of who he feels is town. Glork has done the same thing; he has just been more active than ssk. His choice to vote for ssk disturbs me. He votes for the person he doesn't even remember that he is suspicious of. If he was truly most suspicious of him I think he would have remembered him.

[Incognito]

So what do you think of Glork? Do you think he's scum also?

[Patrick]

@Patrick: What was the reason for the unvote?

I've lost heart in the vote. He has at least done something now, and whilst it doesn't set my world on fire, neither does anyone's play, really. Too many people are doing too little. In addition to the list made by Incognito, I'd ask:

Glork, why are you being so patently useless? Hasdgfas, why are you lurking in the face of these accusations?

I should try and get a reread in.

[scotmany12]

So what do you think of Glork? Do you think he's scum also?

Initially, I had an early town read on Glork. Now I'm not so sure. I wouldn't go so far as to say I think he is scum at the moment. I haven't actually really played a forum game with him where we were both alive. Is it normal for him to be useless like this?

[Patrick]

I was there too, early on. Now I read him as slightly scummy, as it definitely isn't normal for him to be this useless, and it's the kind of play he often goes after himself. It also bothers me how he hasn't even tried to follow up his attack on me, especially after what happened last time, and especially since a number of people said they had no problems with my play. I'd expect more concern. It's not a stretch that he could be lazy town, but I don't like it.

[PokerFace]

Yay Hi all. Sorry my activity as of late has been crap. I am at work right now and I shall post later today. I actually have monday off so I should be able to spend some more time over this weekend for this game. I got to do something before deadline.

[Incognito]

Is it normal for him to be useless like this?

Dunno. Never played with him before and haven't meta-ed him.

At this point, I'm still unsure who I would like to see lynched. My take on the hasdgfas wagon is pending his response. I don't like how he's gone lurker-ish in the face of these accusations. It's a bit unsettling how I still have absolutely no read on Tarhalindur, Elmo, and PokerFace and the deadline is like... right there. SSK seems mildly town to me especially since I'm familiar with his playstyle (scummiest pro-town Mason buddy of all time). Mizzy's recap of events seems completely off, and Glork could easily get my vote at this point too. So yeah... I'm like ttly in limbo lol.

[hasdgfas]

/prodded

I will deal more with this game once a pressing deadline in another game has passed.

For the time being, I'm going to put some pressure on Elmo in the hope of getting some content out of him.

Unvote, Vote: Elmo

I find this to be a useless and hypocritical post.

Mizzy, on the other hand, has done things like just comment on the fact that someone seems to be playing normally. That's not meta-scumhunting, like what PF is doing. Commenting on whether someone is acting normally or not is a different kind of meta-ing than seeing if they're acting like they did as scum in a previous game, at least IMO.

Mizzy said that Ether is playing as she'd expect Ether to behave as town, did that bother you? You've said most people won't play the same as scum in every game, doesn't that apply equally well to town?

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

Although Glork certainly has more posts in the game so far, I'd hardly say he's been scumhunting to any great degree.

He's done more than SSK has, however.

Most of his posting is pretty vague and reasonless. hasdgfas' statement here reinforces my earlier feeling - he seems to be kind of shying away from Glork at this point, possibly in fear of his reputation.

What shys me away from Glork is that I know that he can be really useful and a great townsperson if he puts his mind to it, which is why I'm giving Glork a little bit more of a chance to stay.

I asked for questioning purposes. I wasn't sure if you were finding some tiny scumtells. I really don't like those. However, it does make sesnse that it could lead to accosiation with each other.

Okay. So who's scum? Do you seriously have nothing better to do than question the validity of an individual tell every 72 hours?

Its really hard for me to pick out a really scummish person in this game. Its so complex. And I don't have anything better to do than that.

Are you

serious?

In this ENTIRE game, you can't find anything or anyone scummy?

Hasdgfas, why are you lurking in the face of these accusations?

I'm sorry for not posting every day in this game.
The reason for my "lurking" is that I've been attempting to think of the words I want for me defense, but I can't get exactly the thoughts I need.

[MafiaSSK]

[qutoe="hasdgfas"]

I asked for questioning purposes. I wasn't sure if you were finding some tiny scumtells. I really don't like those. However, it does make sesnse that it could lead to accosiation with each other.

Okay. So who's scum? Do you seriously have nothing better to do than question the validity of an individual tell every 72 hours?

Its really hard for me to pick out a really scummish person in this game. Its so complex. And I don't have anything better to do than that.

Are you

serious?

In this ENTIRE game, you can't find anything or anyone scummy?
[/quote]
WEll I've already questioned what I have found scummy.

[Patrick]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

I don't really agree with this; I think people will often play differently as town from game to game. Of course, there are still things you can look for, but I think looking at scum meta is equally valid.

You didn't answer my other question. What makes it scummy instead of just poor play? Even if you don't think looking at past scum games is helpful, you're presumably aware that it's done fairly often.

[Patrick]

Elmo, it's well over a week since you replaced in. I'm not inclined to accept illness as a valid excuse, since you've just replaced into another game. Post something, and make it worthwhile.

[Glork]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

Dude, have you

ever

played more than one game of mafia with me?

[hasdgfas]

No. When you're town, you try to play similarly to previous times you've been town, so it's understandable to find someone town for acting similarly to previous times they've been town.

Dude, have you

ever

played more than one game of mafia with me?

No.
This wasn't referring to you, btw, because your response makes it seem like you thought it was.

[Glork]

It was meant in general. I am a prime example of someone who intentionally varies his playstyle from game to game, regardless of alignment.

[PokerFace]

Well, my problem with him is that he seems to only be meta-ing, and I really don't like that. I use meta as some of my arguments, but not as everything I do for the whole game.

We really have no way of knowing the reason PokerFace has decided to ask for referential games because he hasn't provided us with his findings from those games yet. It seems a bit early to say that PF is using meta "for the whole game" when this game isn't very long yet. I am very curious to see what PF has deduced from his research.

Well I suppose I probably should tell you what my research yielded. I'll post some of the meta info that is relevant to this game here and then I'll post some of my own comments on what has been happening later on, probably tomorrow. The main reason I felt I should do this research is because some players have mentioned people giving town vibes or acting as they normally are. Some people have not gone into great detail why they think as they do so I felt reading some games would perhaps be the best way for me to see their point.

-hascow:

In Pine Barrens hascow posted quite bit. Only a few times did he make posts mentioning giving big cases later on. He really only got prodded once so I overall wouldn't say he tends to lurk as scum. Hascow was never voted outside of the random stage in that game so I couldn't say if he lurks under pressure or not. He was voted once outside the random stage in Weather Mafia and it was for a pretty BS reason. Blackberry made some bogus claims in that game. His vote for hascow was pretty much a joke. Also in Weather Mafia I got the impression that hascow appeared to be commenting from the sidlines alot. Basically watching the town destroy itself. Not really commanding any of the wagons. I can't say I have noticed any of this behavior here.

-Mizzy:

I have not yet dove deep into her case on Patrick. I will be reading it soon and comenting on it, I promise you. The activity level she had been displaying before giving this case, did not look like the Mizzy I remembered from Newbie Game 520. In her other games as town she displayed alot of good pro-town content and scum hunting. With the little content she had been givinging up to that point i was begining to wonder if this game could possibly be her first game as scum. That could explain why her play looked unfamilar. When I read her case on Patrick I'll be seeing if it holds water is actual scumhunting.

-Ether:

I didn't find anything that looked drastically different from her play in the other games. She has been scumhunting and asking questions throughout this game.

-Erg0:

Him as well, I didn't find anything that looked drastically different from his play in the other games. Nothing that would confirm him as being definate scum.

-Tarhalindur:

I read through "Stargate SG-1" to see an example of the IIoA tell. The wagon on Theopor_COD (which started at page 59) was not simply composed of that tell. Sure Theopor_COD stated alot of facts and info with no personal analysis, but there was some evidence linking Theopor_COD to a mafioso's that had died earlier Rosso Carne. The wagon on Theopor_COD got huge when he made a bad fake claim. Tar has stopped going after Erg0 at the moment to put some pressure on Elmo which is a little off considering he is not doing too much either.

-Incognito & MafiaSSK:

I took a look at mini game 539. I can't say I noticed anything that makes incognito seem more passive here. As far as MafiaSSK goes, he was active in 539's random voting phase when some pressure was put on him. He didn't really do much after that. He pretty much lurked alot while giving little content. He didn't really give alot analysis or scumhunting until much later in the game. In that game there was reason for him to get replaced since he did not post between Jan 3rd and Jan 29th. He actually asked for replacement on January Second for some FireFox issue. The mod just never really got around to replacing him then since he eventually ended up getting nightkilled there.

Throughout this game MafiaSSK has been lurking quite a bit while posting very little content, aswell. I generally consider such actions as scummy. Even though he's kinda done it before, I can't say I want to give him a pass for now. One thing I did seem to notice as a difference is that in 539 he did vote people he thought were scummy in that game. He didn't go too deeply into why he believed Justin PlayFair and Natude to be scummy early on but he still voted for people he thought was scum. Here he didn't vote during the random stage at first. He had to be prompted for the vote and it was kinda retalitory. He has been sitting on that vote through this game and yet early he said he consider Erg0 town. So I basically think what I wrote about in my 8th post is still relevant.

MafiaSSK who do you suspect?

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

If you find Erg0 town for some unknown reason I'd like to know why you are still voting him, because at the moment I believe this statement is very much true about you.

...and I too would like some elaboration on his townlist, since

it's possible [MafiaSSK] just saw Glork's comment on roland and tried to look protown by labelling a third of the game as protown.

Reasonably happy with his comment on Incognito, who does seem more passive than I'm used to seeing from him. Not particularly scummy to me.

At this moment I am leaning towards voting MafiaSSK. I will not do that yet because as things stand I have only read deeply into posts upto post#210. I skimmed some of the posts after that while I was at work early saturday, but did not really look at stuff like Mizzy's case on Patrick. I don't think I should cast a formal vote until after I am more caught up. I'll be catching up on some of that stuff Sunday and Monday. I'll try and keep a daily level of activity up as we approach deadline. Having this day end without a vote or a lynch is not good. I'll

FOS: MafiaSSK

for now.

[Mizzy]

Poker:

Maybe you missed me saying so, but the reason my participation level is down is because of my extremely limited time to play. I have never had limited time to play before that has gone on for so long, and my participation is down this low in ALL of my current games, not just this one.

[Patrick]

PokerFace, what do you think of Elmo? You've been going after MafiaSSK for low content, and FoSed him/preparing to vote, but you didn't mention Elmo once in that last post, and his predecessor hardly did anything either. I can't help but feel that you're giving him a preference here. I could argue you've been too lenient on Tarhalindur and Glork too, but Elmo seems to be the most striking double standard there.

[OhGodMyLife]

8th vote count

hasdgfas - 4 (Ether, Erg0, Glork, scotmany12)
Erg0 - 1 (MafiaSSK)
Mizzy - 1 (Incognito)
MafiaSSK - 1 (hasdgfas)
Elmo - 1 (Tarhalindur)
Patrick - 1 (Mizzy)

Not Voting - 3 (Elmo, PokerFace, Patrick)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Current deadline: May 29th, 1:00 PM EST

[OhGodMyLife]

Tarhalindur and Elmo have been prodded

[Elmo]

I am honest-to-god writing a post right now. @_@

[Incognito]

Unvote; Vote: Elmo

Added incentive.

[Elmo]

Readin' through. Hmm. I seriously doubt Glork would try to fish like that with this crowd. I don't see why 'accusing just to accuse' in the random stage is a scumtell; might be unwise, but more than a few people will jump on literally anything to get out of random. I do figure Incog has a point, inthat his vote is probably actually weaker than Ether's, but hasd doesn't jump on it anything like the same way. I'm also not sure how hasd can say 'we do need a start to the game, and this is a good one' and then say Ether was 'trying too hard'. Can you try too hard to get the game off to a good start? @_@. I somewhat agree with Erg0 that Glork's stance here appears kinda.. standoffish? Passive? Post 67 even seems a lil' passive-aggressive, hum. Albeit I agree with the conclusion (obv, some players will wagon anything with a pulse - I believe that's consistent with Ether) Glork's comment doesn't appear to actually do anything other than prompt further comment from both sides. Mizzy appears to be dancing (heh) around the exchange. I don't agree with Tarhalindur's comment on Erg0, 68 seemed to take stances on people in a reasonable manner, although I see what he's getting at with Ether.

I'm mainly just sitting back with some popcorn and watching the whole Ether <--> Glork thing going on. Neither of one of them are acting out of character, I think, so as of yet, I have no opinions on who is scummy.

Um, hi?

I don't understand Incognito's vote in 85. I can see he'd be curious, but the natural thing to do is simply ask "Hey, Glork, why'd you miss me out?" - I really can't see any reason for a vote, there. IIRC, Mizzy has a tendency to assert that we can't know much early on - I disagree, but I don't think her qualifiers are significant here. I kinda agree with scotmany wrt Tar, hm. Oh, noes, we're not having this 'to be honest' debate, are we? I don't like Hasd's 131, that looks very like 'hey, look, I'm doing stuff! Only not!' hrhrm. It seems to me like Tar puts too much stock in the Standard Tells, here - although I have seen IIoA before, I don't think what Erg0's doing fits that pattern, although you could see it that way due to confirmation bias if you were specifically looking for it, hm. I figure it's a good tell, but generally limited.. Tar's play seems very by-the-numbers, I'm not sure if that's in character. Hm, I disagree with Patrick about Glork's nitpicking, that seems precisely the kinda thing he picks up on (thinking back to Open 54 here) most frequently. hasdgfas's 153 strikes me as staying near the sidelines for some reason.. not sure I like that. My vague impression was he was like that in Pine Barrens, all tentative like.. I can't remember if I've seen him as town, yet. I agree with PokerFace that I don't see a real basis for calling Mizzy pro-town yet - I can't remember who did that, maybe I'll go and look back in a bit, hm. Ether seems a little different than I recall from Big Love, but then I replaced in a loooong way from the start, so perhaps it's just different circumstances, like... I can see prodding and poking random details as a good way to get things going, but you'd switch away from that after a bit. Mmm. I do quite like a lot of PokerFace's 158. Incognito seems to be making a bunch of good points hereafter.

Glork: What underlying reason do you have for acting as you are, when making post 172?
Patrick/Ether: What does Tar feel like relative to Farscape? I don't think I've seen them in a game before.
Incog: What is '42%' in post 27? Why do you like your Mizzy vote in 175?
hasdgfas: Why don't you like unprompted lists of pro-town people on 'gut' (181)? Why haven't you criticised Glork for doing exactly that? How precisely has Glork been 'useful'?
Mizzy: Can you give an example or three of Patrick's questions, and explain how they are not designed to scumhunt?
MafiaSSK: Can you explain why you thought those bunch of people were townish?

Deadline vote probably goes to cow. Humma.

[Patrick]

Patrick/Ether: What does Tar feel like relative to Farscape? I don't think I've seen them in a game before.

What I remember of him from Farscape was that he lurked alot, virtually everything he said I disagreed with, and that he eventually went on a suicide mission, FoSing people who tried to tell him it was a bad idea. He was eventually lynched on day 2 as a townie. That game is sort of what makes me waver on going after him here for what is in a vacuum pretty scummy play.

Hm, I disagree with Patrick about Glork's nitpicking, that seems precisely the kinda thing he picks up on (thinking back to Open 54 here) most frequently.

I've never seen him as big on semantics which is what I see this as. Which attack of his in open 54 do you find comparable to this? Do you think the tell is valid here?

[MafiaSSK]

-Incognito & MafiaSSK:

I took a look at mini game 539. I can't say I noticed anything that makes incognito seem more passive here. As far as MafiaSSK goes, he was active in 539's random voting phase when some pressure was put on him. He didn't really do much after that. He pretty much lurked alot while giving little content. He didn't really give alot analysis or scumhunting until much later in the game. In that game there was reason for him to get replaced since he did not post between Jan 3rd and Jan 29th. He actually asked for replacement on January Second for some FireFox issue. The mod just never really got around to replacing him then since he eventually ended up getting nightkilled there.

Throughout this game MafiaSSK has been lurking quite a bit while posting very little content, aswell. I generally consider such actions as scummy. Even though he's kinda done it before, I can't say I want to give him a pass for now. One thing I did seem to notice as a difference is that in 539 he did vote people he thought were scummy in that game. He didn't go too deeply into why he believed Justin PlayFair and Natude to be scummy early on but he still voted for people he thought was scum. Here he didn't vote during the random stage at first. He had to be prompted for the vote and it was kinda retalitory. He has been sitting on that vote through this game and yet early he said he consider Erg0 town. So I basically think what I wrote about in my 8th post is still relevant.

MafiaSSK who do you suspect?

Okay then quick response to everything.
I find Ergo,Mizzy,Glork,Patrick to be protown. The rest I'm curious about especially Incognito.

If you find Erg0 town for some unknown reason I'd like to know why you are still voting him, because at the moment I believe this statement is very much true about you.

...and I too would like some elaboration on his townlist, since

it's possible [MafiaSSK] just saw Glork's comment on roland and tried to look protown by labelling a third of the game as protown.

Reasonably happy with his comment on Incognito, who does seem more passive than I'm used to seeing from him. Not particularly scummy to me.

At this moment I am leaning towards voting MafiaSSK.

So your basing my meta on only 539? Why not try and look at the ones where I was scum such as in SSBB Smalltown Mafia (I forgot the #.) Also you could find a better, variation of where I was more scummish but yet still a townie in Mini 562. Also the reason why I did label a third of the game protown is the fact that they seem like it. Its hard to label which sentences told me that they were town.

[Erg0]

Kind of odd that nobody noticed that Scot's vote on hasdgfas was a very close echo of my post 210. Not that I disagree with his reason, but I would have expected some mention of agreement with me in there. For that matter, is there any reason that he was attacked for the comment and I wasn't?

What shys me away from Glork is that I know that he can be really useful and a great townsperson if he puts his mind to it, which is why I'm giving Glork a little bit more of a chance to stay.

This is a much more valid reason than the one you originally gave. I already said in 201 that I didn't like the idea of lynching Glork day 1, though, so no town points for you.