Mature Mafia: Game Over

[Glork]

Cam, would it matter any more or less to you if you were told that Zu's original post included the exact word-for-word alignment quote and the word "vanilla" from his role quote? (It doesn't anymore, obviously, so there's no sense in looking -- but it did, originally, in its unedited form.)

[Adel]

Glork I really wish you would've kept that to yourself.

This last page really breaks the spirit of the game. Quoting a role PM, and any derivative of quoting a role PM is both clever and wrong.

Of course, I'm about ready to lynch mathcam now...

[elvis_knits]

Okay maybe I can convince you by appealing to your sense of ethics...

Suppose you are right. Asking you for your allignment term is a form of pm quoting and gives town an unfair advantage.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum. Level the playing field. The price they have to pay for post editing is losing a member of their team through this allignment test.

In a normal game with a normal mod... scum cheating might pay a pentalty of modkill. That is essentially what we would be doing.

[elvis_knits]

Glork... thanks for ruining my plan

[rajrhcpfreak]

yes it is out of the spirit of the game. BUT all cam gave us was his alignment.
and technically my alignment and his alignment doesn't match.

now is pro-town the same as _________? probably.

but the wording of his only claim is suspicious.
personally i wouldn't seperate the two, role and alignment. i would just say them together. if he said protown vote counter, then i would buy it. now that they are seperate terms, they could mean something different, we didnt ask for you to seperate role and alignment, you openly did it yourself.

[Adel]

Being mature includes knowing when to turn the other cheek, or at least knowing when not to jump to conclusions.

I now believe that Emptytiger was probably the person who changed Zu's post, for obvious reasons.

You are advocating cheating because of the possibility that the scum are cheating. I suspect that Marcos' missing post could very well be similar to Shadowlurker's presence: simply a test of our maturity.

As far as editing of posts in the future goes, check out the wiki article for mature mafia. And future changes in the historical record of this game will be documented thanks to the wiki software so long as one of us remembers to update the wikipage every so often, so that is now a moot point.

if anyone goes along with your approach elvis, I shall resign from this game in protest. I don't want to play in a game with cheaters, even if we share an alignment. Stop it.

[Adel]

and by "resign from this game" I mean I will modkill myself.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I wouldn't want to play in a game where the mod is "testing our maturity" by screwing around and making it look like some of us are not playing by the rules.

[elvis_knits]

if anyone goes along with your approach elvis, I shall resign from this game in protest. I don't want to play in a game with cheaters, even if we share an alignment. Stop it.

Don't resign from the game because I suggested something. I didn't actually do anything, but suggested a means of policing this game. We should only do it if everyone agrees.

[Adel]

Well, I wouldn't want to play in a game where the mod is "testing our maturity" by screwing around and making it look like some of us are not playing by the rules.

then you may want to consider asking to be replaced by someone who is mature enough to handle it.

[Adel]

the smug tone of our "mod" in the sign-up thread should have been a warning.

[elvis_knits]

So you feel perfectly fine about a mod who is going to screw with us?

[Adel]

I enjoy grappling with out-of-context problems.

It makes me stretch my mind.

[elvis_knits]

I think it's very immature of you to threaten to modkill yourself after I make a suggestion you don't like.

Yet when I say I wouldn't like to play in a game with a cheating mod, you suggest I replace myself with someone more mature.

[Adel]

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

So now that I've raised the possibility that it is in fact our mod who is responsible, do you still want to cheat?

Understand that each character in the critical word(s) encode quite a bit of information. It is trivial to verify to alignment of every player in this game if we were to choose to take that route, assuming that no scum players saw&remember zu's original post, and assuming that only version of the non-scum alignment was used... and assuming that the scum didn't get a sample a non-scum role pm.

Why stop at only outing mathcam as scum? Why not solve this entire game right here and right now?

You've plainly stated that you recognize that it is cheating. I'm just disappointed that you are trying to rationalize doing what you know to be wrong. You may be town in this game, but I am beginning to suspect that you are scum in real life.

[Glork]

I never said (or even suggested) that the wording still existed anywhere. I just stated that it

used to

exist in Zu's original post. I also think this is important so as not to "confirm" any scumbags who remembered Zu's post (such as whomever edited the post to begin with).

[elvis_knits]

You may be town in this game, but I am beginning to suspect that you are scum in real life.

Why do you keep insulting me?

This is totally out of line.

I may have made a bad suggestiong. You can disagree with me. You can convince me I am wrong. I know I am not always right. I don't pretend to be.

But why you feel the need to tell me that I am scum in real life is beyond me.

It really hurts my feelings.

[Adel]

You are openly advocating cheating. I have no tolerance for cheating. Cheating ruins the game. I don't like people who ruin games.

[elvis_knits]

I suggested a solution to what I thought was scum cheating. It was an effort to make this game FAIR. It was not an effort to work around the rules to win for the town. It was an effort to make the game fair.

I wish I had never signed up for this game.

[mathcam]

But, cam, how are we supposed to evaluate if you wrote "pro-town allignment" before because you were purposefully being general, or because you don't know what the correct term is?

You're supposed to evaluate me on the merits of my play, and not on out-of-game information like the specific wording of my role PM. That is what mafia is all about.

Adel: I'm confused as to why you're going to vote me now. Also, I think you're being unnecessarily harsh on elvis -- while I think we're in agreement here, I think the mod has given us more than ample wiggle room at least in terms of speculating how we should play the game.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum. Level the playing field. The price they have to pay for post editing is losing a member of their team through this allignment test.

Do we know they're cheating? Do we know that this isn't one of their abilities? Are we sure that scum did it? I'm glad we're finally at least acknowledging some of the points I tried to bring up earlier in the day.

[logicticus]

Okay maybe I can convince you by appealing to your sense of ethics...

Suppose you are right. Asking you for your allignment term is a form of pm quoting and gives town an unfair advantage.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum. Level the playing field. The price they have to pay for post editing is losing a member of their team through this allignment test.

In a normal game with a normal mod... scum cheating might pay a pentalty of modkill. That is essentially what we would be doing.

Im a little lost here, how does this cheat the scum?

I am assuming from whats gone on this page that you have the original text that z_f posted (would have been a great plan, btw) and if cams didnt match, then he was scum. But I dont get how thats cheating the scum in any way.

[mathcam]

I think the argument is that we're catching scum by using a technique (comparing role PMs) that's essentially illegal.

Incidentally, I saw zu's post before it was edited.

Amusingly enough, I'm wondering if we shouldn't

all

claim our modpowers now. I know this is a pretty stark reversal from my previous stance, but it just seems as if the game literally cannot function without knowing who's in charge of what, and more to the point, what, if anything, emp is in charge of.

Cam

[logicticus]

I have no problem claiming modpowers.

I dont think it will help us catch scum though.

All it will show is emp is probably just reading this and taking no action as I bet everything a mod would do has been delegated to one of us.

[Adel]

Since that seems to be all of the reaction I'm going to get out of her, I'll lay my cards on the table:

I'm calling the scumgroup as being elvis_knits + mathcam + marcos

A random wagon landed on mathcam, and elvis_knits is bussing him.

I am pretty sure the first line zu wrote was "I am out of the game." Then something like "I was vanilla townsperson.

scum being helpful by sharing information with the town

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

O... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

this is when she figured out that zu gave away the critical word!

I would consider anyone who cheats to have lost themselves the game. I'm not really scared that people are going to abuse the freedom we have been given. Perhaps I am too much of an optimistic, trusting person.

But basically, you have to accept that there is the possibility that people will cheat, and play or not play on those terms. There is nothing we can do about it other than decide not to play.

she is warning her scumbuddies not to cheat.

It's like you're trying to act like townie scared the scum will abuse the setup.

As an ethical player she wants to say "it is ok, I am scum and I will not cheat!"

If mathcam does not claim in the correct way (that lets us know he is not scum), please nobody correct him. Just vote him.

As clever scum she wants to bus her partner and confirm herself at the same time! She knows from zu's post which word to look for, and she thinks cam doesn't.

I think it is perfectly mature and ethical to ask you to verify one word from your pm. The choice of term here is important. It is not asking you to quote your pm. It is asking you for one word. I see nothing potentially illegal in that.

she doesn't think there is anything illegal about it because she figured the word out honestly.

We have already had scum take an unfair advantage by editing the first two posts and deleting one of macros' posts... and who knows what else. I am assuming scum is doing this. If you are a pro-town role and you did any of it, speak now.

How are we to proceed in a game where scum are cheating?

Answer: cheat the scum.

I suspect that marcos is scum with her, and she thinks that he is the one who did the editing. She has the added frustration then of being ethical scum who doesn't cheat, but is acting like a townie who bends the rules, while being pissed at her partner marcos who is cheating by editing posts.

I think elvis_knits suspected that Marcos (instead of Emptytiger) is the mystery editor because of the non-native english thing, and then he edited his own post just for cover.

For the record I have no idea if Marcos actually was doing the editing, all that matters to me is that it seems very possible that elvis thinks he did.

~~~

Sorry for being harsh earlier ellvis_knits, but I was trying to apply psychological pressure to get additional information out of you. I was trying to add stress to your life, which I have mixed feelings about, I can only apologize and hope that you understand.

[Glork]

Sorry for being harsh earlier ellvis_knits, but I was trying to apply psychological pressure to get additional information out of you. I was trying to add stress to your life, which I have mixed feelings about, I can only apologize and hope that you understand.

This bothers me. Perhaps it's because it feels insincere coming from Adel.

I put players under psychological pressure from time to time, and I don't think I have ever regeretted or apologized for it.



By the way, how come nobody else has jumped the RAJwagon yet? It's quite awesome, I assure you.