Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over

[undo]

Not voting:

hasdgfas, PyroDwarf, Shin Hatsubai

With 9 alive, it's

5 to lynch

.

Some people have already shown interest in replacing in this game. This issue may be solved soon. Thank you all for your patience.

[Singing Librarian]

I don't see an inability to argue in Musher's posts (or no worse than other people's), I see far too many misunderstanding for them to be misunderstandings. I see a great tendency to twist people's words to make either the poster or another player appear much more suspicious than is warranted, and that strikes me as being scum play.

[lord_hur]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

[Musher333]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

Its mainly because ( i know i have said this before and he has probably gave reasoning but i can't remember) that either he or guardian was staying close to the other and then as soon as the chances of guardian breadcrumming cop goes and he claims miller, BANG! Stoofer pushes hard for his lynch (Very much like he is for mine atm).

[HackerHuck]

Without knowing Guardian's alignment, that's not much of a case. Guardian claiming Miller caused more than just Stoofer to go after him.

[Musher333]

Without knowing Guardian's alignment, that's not much of a case. Guardian claiming Miller caused more than just Stoofer to go after him.

I agree but most of the scum lynches (by this i mean lynching scum, now you can't twist my words) start at small finds and things which aren't certain but then as the pressure builds you find your scum.

[undo]

SeraphicMirth replaces Shin Hatsubai, springlullaby replaces PyroDwarf. Effective immediately.

[SeraphicMirth]

Hello all. I will catch up on reading today and see if I've got anything to say off the bat or on current urgent situations (if there are any).

[springlullaby]

Hi all, glad to play in this game, I love the illustration.

First thing I have to say is don't expect detailed analysis of people's D1 arguments from me, I tried to read everything, it gave me a headache.

That said, here are my observations:

1)D1 discussion was not healthy, too much pushing stuff around, it only served to get the waters very muddy = imo when this happen it's a good sign that scum were out playing.

2) One person stood out to me, lord_hur:
- comment very frequently on the game but doesn't come up with a case of his own
- ask many question with a vague air of accusation, but never seems to infer anything from people's answer
- repeat that he is a newbie

That's enough for me.

Vote lord_hur

On Guardian, I do not see elements which permit to conclude to his alignment with any kind of affirmation that I would endorse, my guts read on him is town, but I think speculation on his alignment is futile anyway. Stoofer's belief that he was scum is noted.

[SeraphicMirth]

So, my usual MO -- open up notepad and write as I read through from the start.

Musher333: #7 - >Since i believe in revenge vote Lord_hur, 2 votes is nothing with this many people. <
You quantified this vote?? really? I think everyone pretty much accepts it as no big deal that early in the game (post #7) and also if they did react strongly to that, it could mean something of a scum tell. So, it's weird to mention that. He seems unnecessarily worried about being called out for a 2nd vote.

VoD: >I was also wondering how long I could get away with FoSing people for anything I saw suspicious before becoming suspicious myself. <

That is weak. You were really "testing" this? Sounds like a poor excuse for your actions.

Musher= #75 @lord_hur- "[...]be careful, your remark could be counted as scummish." -- why are you telling someone else to be careful about looking like scum? What if they are? Why, as town, would you want to tell them to be careful?
Very scum-like to me: if they are scum telling another scum to watch it, or scum seeing a townie flub up and waiting to pounce on it later. Kind of a "I didn't want to do this, but I warned you" attitude.

VOD again: post #80-some >My point of over FoSing was to see reactions and I did find it interesting. Yes this makes me look scummy and I knew it was going to happen but was too interested in how it would go down. <

These types of "oh I played like crap for a short while to make myself look scummy purposely as a personal experiment" type of excuses always make me extremely nervous. I haven't ever seen one come out as town. He feels this is a valid explanation and says a couple of different times that "I have already explained myself". The reason people kept bringing it up was probably because it's not an explanation that sits right. Then, some people want to brush it off like he just plays a little kooky, but what if it's not just that? *shrug*

113- He's now "settling down to a more refined style of play"..hmm ok because he's been called out about it and it made him nervous? I just find it odd that you have to change to a different mode of play. I don't have to play this way or that if I'm not scum...scum are the ones that have to use different tactics. Also, if he was simply one of those kooky players, then that would just be his play personality and that's that. However, by saying that he's going to play differently now, you can see it's not.

In 133 after Librarian's post saying that VoD has his vote on lord_hur though he seems more suspicious of Stoofer, VoD then unvotes lord hur. Mmmhmm.

Musher posts but doesn't say much, and what he does say -- on the scale from protown to scum, is in the middle but teeters slightly more towards the scum side (as in posts 7 and 75, my examples). A lot of what he says (switched to Musher-only view temporarily) is a repeat of what another player already said, is piggypacking another post with generally unhelpful messages for the actual game (i.e. "To add to this i will tell you something i was told in my last game, Preview is your friend."), or saying "oh I agree."


[Argh. Cool. So, on notepad I did a whole thing about Guardian (early-game Guardian) here and forgot to keep a list of who has died already. Awesome, I love wasting my own time. :-/ lol Well, his identity wasn't revealed (suck!), but I think we did good on that as I was strongly in the opinion that he was scum. I kept the argument if needed, but I don't think that speculating on his alignment does much good at this point. I am leaving this next bit from it because I reference it in an argument against VOD.]

AHHH DINGDINGDING!! Guardian #142- "I'm really tired. If this post doesn't make any sense, that's why."
Making pre-emptive excuses for possibly-percieved shabby posting. The post seemed perfectly reasonable to me, but he is worried that he'll be called out on it for whatever reason. This is another excuse that I see very often as a scumtell. If you're tired and it doesn't make sense, then perhaps you should come back later and make one that does -- problem solved. Now, if anyone did have a problem with that post - no one can say anything against the "I'm tired" defense, really.
(I wish I could search the phrase "I am tired" connected with "post doesn't make sense" for all the games on here and then of those posted, see who turned up scum. I think there'd be a very strong correlation)

ToD #150: "Ok so this comment got on the nerve of Mr Stoofer and a few others no doubt but I threw it in to see what sort of reaction I would get."
I don't believe that. You seem to be developing a habit of purposely trying to get on people's nerves, or make them suspicious, or get a reaction. The odd part is that it's right after making a mistake, having that pointed out, and then using these things as your explanation. It's odd enough for me to feel more and more sure that you're scum.

ToD# - > think it is hard to understand as I write train of thought sometimes and dont go back and edit my posts I am also sick with glandular fever so I am very tired and at times don't put super energy into my posts to present them all nice and well spoken. <

Glargh. See my argument against Guardian #142. Same thing.

ToD also bringing up Jester - *bangs head against wall* That's all I have to say for that. It's a good way to bring confusing speculation into the game.

ToD # 376- >Ok so I thought that my mention of a Jester might attract some attention< Oh, was this another one of your experiments of reactions?

Musher -- > Goes after Stoofer for a bit. Then #344 "maybe a guardian vote will come, i will wait and see how any votes away he is, stoofer still seems scummy to me" and then when Guardian bandwagon seems inevitable, and also it's like 5 hours later,#348 is like - oh, on second thought, Guardian seems like the best lynch, with no explanation or substance. And also still says he'll wait for Guardian's reply, and never votes. I think Musher is scum and from that POV, this seems to me like trying to seem to side a little more with town but doesn't actually put his vote in (on his scumbuddy).


There's lots more on ToD, I'm sure. I got lazy at some point in here and didn't want to look at more for him. What I found/outlined so far convinces me.

RE: comment by lord_hur >By now, I'm 99% sure Guardian is town because he's taking the time to try to help us ; scum would not do that, because their words would be invalidated by their turning up scum. < My comment is speculation and doesn't really need discussion but scum that have been lynched may try to say crap to throw us off. We don't know what conditions make it so killings are revealed or not. My guess is that scum do know that- based on the lynch scene (a plague came in and if they're the ones sending the plagues..) So, if Guardian knew he wouldn't be revealed, well then he can say whatever to fling suspicion wherever, if he's convincing enough at the end to seem like town to some people. Also, in his last several posts he FOSes various people and tries to direct our actions for the next day. I don't really see this as that helpful, personally.


and on the game in currentish (a few pages behind): I think it's interesting that Mr.Stoofer says he doesn't like SlySly's posts, etc. earlier in the game, seemingly siding with Guardian (who I,and others who lynched, assume to be scum) and then SlySly is the kill that night and he turns up town. Smells of (not very skilled) scum trying to frame Stoofer to me. I wouldn't have been surprised if that would have come up in some argument against him in the near future. If stoofer were scum, it would be idiotic to kill SlySly, knowing Sly is town. It just serves to make him seem more suspicious. (Just now read 414 and maybe it is more like Stoofer puts it, which still makes him seem more town to me because he wouldn't have pointed that out otherwise.)


I have to leave, but I will read the last several pages when I get back tonight (i've made it to 17). I will place my vote now, though, because I'm pretty convinced of it.

vote VoD

, because I don't feel that it's just his post style being confusing, but rather that he is scum that likes to backtrack with weak, unprovable, excuses (vs. logic) and babbles because he's not good at having explanations ready or coming up with them or whatever.
I will also throw an

FOS Musher333

.
I'll be happy with either for today, but feel that VoD is a stronger lynch.

[SeraphicMirth]

aw crap that was so long. I am sorry!! Preview is my friend, I guess. I'd have broken it down to 2 posts or something :-/

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok, finished reading the last few pages. Don't really have anything to add. The people I think are scummy still look scummy. I'd be down with moving my vote to Musher - I will make good on that- but I think the day is young yet (slow, but young) and he's at L-2.

[Mr Stoofer]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

Its mainly because ( i know i have said this before and he has probably gave reasoning but i can't remember) that either he or guardian was staying close to the other and then as soon as the chances of guardian breadcrumming cop goes and he claims miller, BANG! Stoofer pushes hard for his lynch (Very much like he is for mine atm).

Musher333: As you know, I thought Guardian was a Cop until he admitted that he wasn't. So in fact, my plan was:

• I thought Guardian was a Cop --> I followed his votes and defended him.
  
• Guardian admitted he was trying to deceive people into thinking he was a Cop --> I tried to get him lynched because that is the behaviour of Scum.

Please explain why that is not a valid explanation for my interactions with Guardian.

@SeraphicMirth: TVOD is unlikely to be Scum, because of his interactions with Guardian-scum on day 1. And yes, I am prepared to assume that Guardian was Scum because only Scum pretend to be Cops when they are not.

[Musher333]

You may be right.

Musher333, can you explain - as precisely as possible - (I can't stress this enough, and please, more than one sentence) why you are thinking that Mr Stoofer seems "really scummy" ?

Its mainly because ( i know i have said this before and he has probably gave reasoning but i can't remember) that either he or guardian was staying close to the other and then as soon as the chances of guardian breadcrumming cop goes and he claims miller, BANG! Stoofer pushes hard for his lynch (Very much like he is for mine atm).

Musher333: As you know, I thought Guardian was a Cop until he admitted that he wasn't. So in fact, my plan was:

• I thought Guardian was a Cop --> I followed his votes and defended him.
  
• Guardian admitted he was trying to deceive people into thinking he was a Cop --> I tried to get him lynched because that is the behaviour of Scum.

Please explain why that is not a valid explanation for my interactions with Guardian.

@SeraphicMirth: TVOD is unlikely to be Scum, because of his interactions with Guardian-scum on day 1. And yes, I am prepared to assume that Guardian was Scum because only Scum pretend to be Cops when they are not.

Well i never thought of it like that, i understand the reasoning behind this style of play (much better than the style or lack of it that i use), i don't know why but although that should have seemed obvious it didnt look like that to me,

Unvote

.

[HackerHuck]

Stoofer, you're totally discounting the possibility of Guardian as miller or are you just thinking it quite unlikely?

[lord_hur]

One person stood out to me, lord_hur:
- comment very frequently on the game but doesn't come up with a case of his own
- ask many question with a vague air of accusation, but never seems to infer anything from people's answer
- repeat that he is a newbie

1. I am very sorry that I am (arguably with Mr Stoofer) the most active in this game. I will try to make amends as soon as possible.
The problem with your reasoning is, asking a lot of questions and posting what my thinking whenever possible is info gathering. It has nothing to do with exploiting said info. The former has to be public, while the latter is private (until one feels their conclusions or leads are solid enough). But both are essential, and I think I have done my fair share of work globally.
That said, I don't know what you means by having "a case of my own"... Are you blaming me for not knowing for sure that someone is scum ? Because if you mean I didn't give my leads, I just gave them a few posts earlier.

2. Too vague. Any example ? But anyway this is essentially the same as #1

3. .... what ? I only said I'm a newbie to explain my questions or my behavior. And that surely didn't save me any bashing.


@SeraphicMirth : did you do write down these notes before or after receiving your role PM ?

[Singing Librarian]

Welcome, replacements and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the game.

I don't think lord_hur is scummy - new, yes, but not scummy new. TVOD I still can't get a real handle on, but maybe I should re-read. And SeraphicMirth has found even more that points to the scumminess of musher. Maybe I'm getting slightly tunnel-vision on this, but musher truly does seem like the best lead right now.

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, you're totally discounting the possibility of Guardian as miller or are you just thinking it quite unlikely?

Well, it is possible that he was a Miller, but highly highly unlikely. I don't think that pro-Town Guardian would be so stupid as to pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result on a randomly chosen player. The overwhelming probability is that he was Scum and so I am proceeding on that basis.

Plus Musher's slip seems to confirm that he was Scum.

[Musher333]

Stoofer, you're totally discounting the possibility of Guardian as miller or are you just thinking it quite unlikely?

Well, it is possible that he was a Miller, but highly highly unlikely. I don't think that pro-Town Guardian would be so stupid as to pretend to be a Cop with a guilty result on a randomly chosen player. The overwhelming probability is that he was Scum and so I am proceeding on that basis.

Plus Musher's slip seems to confirm that he was Scum.

If the need comes i will claim, till then i will try to defend.

[springlullaby]

1. I am very sorry that I am (arguably with Mr Stoofer) the most active in this game. I will try to make amends as soon as possible.
The problem with your reasoning is, asking a lot of questions and posting what my thinking whenever possible is info gathering. It has nothing to do with exploiting said info. The former has to be public, while the latter is private (until one feels their conclusions or leads are solid enough). But both are essential, and I think I have done my fair share of work globally.
That said, I don't know what you means by having "a case of my own"... Are you blaming me for not knowing for sure that someone is scum ? Because if you mean I didn't give my leads, I just gave them a few posts earlier.

The sarcasm isn't doing you any grace, quantity doesn't equate to quality. Town do not do 'info gathering', town find suspicious people, press charges and judge - this is the meaning of 'coming with a case of your own'. Your vote on Harcker stinks, even more so because of your claim of being new.
1) You indicated that your vote was only half-heartfelt, why vote if you don't want to? Because people you know are town asked maybe?
2) If you are new, you probably don't know that a)not coming up with a case of your own b)being a people's pleaser c)leaving an exit door while casting a vote, are scumtell.

2. Too vague. Any example ? But anyway this is essentially the same as #1

I said a 'vague air of suspicion' and no, it is not the same as 1. Examples? Sure.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78#1001978
This post stinks to high heaven, it is I believe totally artificial. A town mind doesn't come up with so many vaguely relevant questions addressed to so many people, it is more likely a post by a scum who want to look busy - especially since you don't seem to be garnering any insight in the game from the answers you got. Other examples abound, look at your own post history.

3. .... what ? I only said I'm a newbie to explain my questions or my behavior. And that surely didn't save me any bashing.

Yes, and it is called playing the newbie card, justification of one's behavior which has been pointed out as scummy by invocation of alleged newbiness. And no, it certainly shouldn't save you any bashing, your newbie game was for something. Are you really not understanding this?


On the whole, I hate your posting pattern. You asks many questions, opening leads all over the place, but never commit to any strong conviction yourself, nor do seem to follow a distinct direction - I think of the people who where pushing stuff around D1, you were the main culprit. I think you are scum.

@SeraphicMirth : did you do write down these notes before or after receiving your role PM ?

Noted.

[SeraphicMirth]

@SeraphicMirth : did you do write down these notes before or after receiving your role PM ?

Not sure what this means, but I did it after.

don't know why but although that should have seemed obvious it didnt look like that to me,

What did it look like to you before now? He gave the same exact answer a few times, so I'm confused as to why it's clear now.

[HackerHuck]

Translation to Lord_hur's defence: "I can't be scum because scum wouldn't be posting as much as I do"

I've seen it happen many times where scum carry a passive game and move it in the direction they want to go. It's a crap excuse, but I don't think you're experienced enough to take advantage of the town that way. I could however, see Mr Stoofer doing that.

springlullaby's post seems to come out of nowhere and she's giving lord_hur the full court press. It seems a bit contrived to me.

[Musher333]

Translation to Lord_hur's defence: "I can't be scum because scum wouldn't be posting as much as I do"

I've seen it happen many times where scum carry a passive game and move it in the direction they want to go. It's a crap excuse, but I don't think you're experienced enough to take advantage of the town that way. I could however, see Mr Stoofer doing that.

springlullaby's post seems to come out of nowhere and she's giving lord_hur the full court press. It seems a bit contrived to me.

As to add to your 'i cant be scum' part of Lords post he spoke about the same amount in the last game we were in together, and there he was scum, he got by seeming not anti town but at the same time didn't do anything to make himself seem pro-town.

[Musher333]

As to Sephic's post i can't remember him saying something as down to the point as that, before this (as i have posted) it seemed like he was buddying with Guardian thinking he was cop but then found out he wasnt, i dont see the point in asking what somebody thought it meant when i replied saying i though this and this, before you asked....

[springlullaby]

springlullaby's post seems to come out of nowhere and she's giving lord_hur the full court press. It seems a bit contrived to me.

Quantify 'come out of nowhere'. Does it mean you don't agree with me? Contrived? What exactly are you implying?

I want a wagon on lord_hur now.