Newbie 584: Mark it "done"!

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Post Post #600 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 6:33 am

Post by Xdaamno »

ting =) wrote:@muffin.
It's normal not to have a read on everyone in the game. It doesn't mean you have to assume their scum. If you want to know more about someone, ask them for their opinion on something.

@ice.
I don't have anything against you voting farside, but I don't agree with putting pressure votes on principle. If you tell someone your vote is for pressure, then they know you're not going to carry it to a lynch, it's pointless. Just simply putting a vote on her isn't going to tell anyone anything. Ask a question, or raise a point.

@xdaamno.
Let me see if I get this right: You want to lynch the claimed doc just for the sake of, 'moving this game along'? How is an SD lynch even a better lynch than most? Any lynch will stop the game stalling. My vote was on ice because among the players who've acted scummy, his lynch would have told the most about the rest. With your continuing insistence of trying to lynch sd though..

unvote. vote:xdaamno
The arguments against me are descending into hopeless, but I'm wavering a little, since you, muffin and I think farside can't be scum together if SD is scum.

I can't believe you're still trying to defend him with the 'claimed doc' argument. If scum claimed right off the bat there's more than a 50% chance they'd get away scot-free, and claiming after reading the town upps this even more. The fact he's claimed is irrelevant to my point, and I'm unnerved by the fact you're clearly lynching based on what gives us 'information' rather than the superior motive of having 1 scum tommorow.
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Post Post #601 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 6:35 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Xdaamno wrote:Hm, actually, I've been thinking about this. I
do
want to lynch SD now. The level of information can
only go up
as the game progresses, so it's best to use the sooner lynch on the suspect we're more certain on.
Heh, I just came across a post in mafia discussion by Seol that puts my views on lynching SD sooner rather than later a lot better than I do, here:
Seol wrote:
Thestatusquo wrote:The argument I am making is that you DO lose your queen by doing so...Would you rather have a doctor for two days or not have a doctor for two days? The connections will still be there to read when he dies.
"Lynching later" is horrible for two reasons. Firstly, the increased quality of lynches as the game progresses - a day 4 lynch is better than a day 2 lynch, because you're acting on a lot more information. If you choose not to out scum day 2 on the basis that you'll get them eventually and theyre outed day 4, then you're essentially using the dead-cert lynch you could have had day 2 on day 4 and are swapping a day 4 lynch for a day 2 lynch. Because day 4 lynches are better than day 2 lynches, that's a bad swap.

Secondly, that scum stays alive for longer. Having a doc for two days is great, isn't it? But having an extra scum for two days is good for them, providing extra opinions at night, providing extra misdirection in-thread, wielding a vote against town interests. A town with three scum in it is not as effective at lynching scum as a town with two scum in it.
I'd also like ice to give his views on this.
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Post Post #602 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 6:38 am

Post by ting =) »

x wrote:The arguments against me are descending into hopeless, but I'm wavering a little, since you, muffin and I think
farside can't be scum together if SD is scum.


I can't believe you're still trying to defend him with the 'claimed doc' argument.
If scum claimed right off the bat there's more than a 50% chance they'd get away scot-free, and claiming after reading the town upps this even more.
The fact he's claimed is irrelevant to my point, and
I'm unnerved by the fact you're clearly lynching based on what gives us 'information' rather than the superior motive of having 1 scum tommorow.
When did I say that?

Yes, I've said all that before.

Read my post, I find a number of players scummy. Among them though, an ice lynch will tell me the most about the rest. My motive in voting ice was very much to get rid of a scum. The fact that it gives us information is just icing on the cake.
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Post Post #603 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 6:39 am

Post by Xdaamno »

ting =) wrote:
x wrote:The arguments against me are descending into hopeless, but I'm wavering a little, since you, muffin and I think
farside can't be scum together if SD is scum.


I can't believe you're still trying to defend him with the 'claimed doc' argument.
If scum claimed right off the bat there's more than a 50% chance they'd get away scot-free, and claiming after reading the town upps this even more.
The fact he's claimed is irrelevant to my point, and
I'm unnerved by the fact you're clearly lynching based on what gives us 'information' rather than the superior motive of having 1 scum tommorow.
When did I say that?

Yes, I've said all that before.

Read my post, I find a number of players scummy. Among them though, an ice lynch will tell me the most about the rest. My motive in voting ice was very much to get rid of a scum. The fact that it gives us information is just icing on the cake.
OK, that must be my mistake; I can only remember times when you've said you want to lynch him for info.

So, what've you got? Why is ice scum?
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Post Post #604 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 6:57 am

Post by SD_Reaper »

vote xdaamo


lyncing the doc day one is the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
You're right, everyone does leave scum tells...
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Post Post #605 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 7:44 am

Post by Rishi »

Does anyone have an actual case on X other than the fact that he wants to lynch the scummiest player in the game?
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Post Post #606 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 8:20 am

Post by SD_Reaper »

Rishi wrote: Does anyone have an actual case on X other than the fact that he wants to lynch the scummiest player in the game?
Its widely accepted that it is bad strategy.
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Post Post #607 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 8:30 am

Post by Rishi »

SD_Reaper wrote:
Rishi wrote: Does anyone have an actual case on X other than the fact that he wants to lynch the scummiest player in the game?
Its widely accepted that it is bad strategy.
Right. It's your first game. So where have you acquired this nuanced understanding of the game?

And, really, you should stay out of these arguments if you want us to believe your claim. I really don't see how your vote on X is anything more than OMGUS.
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Post Post #608 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 8:51 am

Post by Xdaamno »

SD_Reaper wrote:
Rishi wrote: Does anyone have an actual case on X other than the fact that he wants to lynch the scummiest player in the game?
Its widely accepted that it is bad strategy
for scum
.
Fixed. From what I know of mafia, the town generally
do
want to lynch the scummiest player.
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Post Post #609 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 10:31 am

Post by icemanE »

Honestly, I don't see how lynching me is going to give you any info. I'm town, and the only info you'd get is that the people who are pushing for my lynch (at this point, only Ting and SD) will look scummy. But SD ALREADY looks incredibly scummy, so you won't gain anything at all from that. You already know he's pushing for my lynch, and you know he's claimed doc (and that that has been his only defense thus far). So after my mislynch, SD will continue to look scummy and say he's doc. Nothing will change. I'm convinced SD is scum so I don't really see much of a reason to keep my vote on farside, I guess you're right Ting about announcing a vote for pressure, it does seem relatively pointless.

unvote: Vote SD


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Post Post #610 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 10:58 am

Post by ting =) »

I'm leaving town in a few minutes for 3 days, so this will be my last post in a while.

@X.
Appeal to authority for an argument? Either way, you took it out of context. The whole discussion was about whether claiming when you know someone is lying is worth it.

@Rishi.
Yes. I made my case on X earlier already.

@Ice.
Your lynch would have helped me make up my mind about rishi, X, twigs and farside. Mostly about Rishi though.
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Post Post #611 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 11:16 am

Post by Twiglees »

Xdaamno wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:Hm, actually, I've been thinking about this. I
do
want to lynch SD now. The level of information can
only go up
as the game progresses, so it's best to use the sooner lynch on the suspect we're more certain on.
Heh, I just came across a post in mafia discussion by Seol that puts my views on lynching SD sooner rather than later a lot better than I do, here:
Seol wrote:
Thestatusquo wrote:The argument I am making is that you DO lose your queen by doing so...Would you rather have a doctor for two days or not have a doctor for two days? The connections will still be there to read when he dies.
"Lynching later" is horrible for two reasons. Firstly, the increased quality of lynches as the game progresses - a day 4 lynch is better than a day 2 lynch, because you're acting on a lot more information. If you choose not to out scum day 2 on the basis that you'll get them eventually and theyre outed day 4, then you're essentially using the dead-cert lynch you could have had day 2 on day 4 and are swapping a day 4 lynch for a day 2 lynch. Because day 4 lynches are better than day 2 lynches, that's a bad swap.

Secondly, that scum stays alive for longer. Having a doc for two days is great, isn't it? But having an extra scum for two days is good for them, providing extra opinions at night, providing extra misdirection in-thread, wielding a vote against town interests. A town with three scum in it is not as effective at lynching scum as a town with two scum in it.
I'd also like ice to give his views on this.
That actually seems to make sense: but I don't feel we should gamble on a claimed doc lynch on day 1. If he remains scummy we could have a lynch on day 2. Also, if there is a cop in the game, they could investigate and report back if he is scum.

I may be able to have a quick read over at school tomorrow and post then.
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Post Post #612 (ISO) » Thu May 08, 2008 7:24 pm

Post by muffinhead »

Xdaamno wrote:
muffinhead wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:
muffinhead wrote:
What exactly am I doing that you think is scummy? Don't be wishy-washy. If I can then disprove what you find scummy about me, are you going to back off or keep blundering on for the sake of your own pride?
X do u think that just becuase u were at lynch 1 and now have no votes on u currently means that we have all forgotten about u ad no longer sus?

Look back at the whole of page 19 and ealier part of page 20 and tell me there is nothing sus about it. sure u did explain yourself but u changed and revoted sd 3 TIMES in 1 and half pages. So dont call me wishy washy when u done that urself. Thats why u got my vote in the first place, ur desperatly to lynch,then sarcasim.

To do that many sus things of course i have to be aware of the fact u could be scum. I dont forget that none of this happened unlike rishi has.
This is annoying. I asked for a direct answer to that question, because you claim to have one. I didn't ask for your views on whether I was being hypocritical. The information is all rather jumbled at the moment, and since you apparently have such a clear idea why I'm scum I'd like a summary of your reasons.

~ Xdaamno, still awaiting a reply.
If thats not answering ur question then i dont know what is. U asked the question of what have u done thats so scummy to me? That post above is the answer. I really dont know how its jumbled.

No i dont recall saying i have a clear idea ur scum after u explained urself so plz state where i said that. What else do i have to say.
Right, I read that wrong, but I'm still looking for more. In theory, what
about
that was scummy? Sure, I was confused, but I have don't have a clue how you equate that to scuminess. Furthermore, what I said then came AFTER your claim of my certain scuminess iirc.

And my
main
point here is that's incredibly weak reasoning. EVERYONE leaves scum tells at some point, regardless of alignment, and SD has done so much more than I have. Like I said, there's no way OMGUS dosen't come into this.
Of course everyone leaves scumtells i wont deny that but as i have ALREADY said it the amount of scumtells u leave. Lets have a look at them.

A-voting people on poor reasoning eg farside
B-Qucikly voting then unvoting then voting again eg with sd
C-trying to lycnh a clamied doc which is way to risky on day 1
D-Sarcasm to try defend urself
E- Not contributing enough information to finding scum
No longer
F-Not explaining himself
No longer

Now u know y i was convinced u were scum

Now the sritkeouts are the orginal reasons i voted u and because u have explained urself in e and f im no longer loking at u for day 1 lynch.

However I still have 4 differnent scumtells from u which is way more then others and god knows y i havnt got a vote on u. Also i dont have any major leads off others.

Well sd looks incrdibly scummy and i can guarrentie he will not make it into the endgame, however on day 1 im not going to risk lynching him when he can be very usefull if he is town.

Surely that answers all ur questions.
mod prod farside once again
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http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Muffinhead

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Post Post #613 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 3:31 am

Post by icemanE »

@Ice.
Your lynch would have helped me make up my mind about rishi, X, twigs and farside. Mostly about Rishi though.
Could you explain how that would help you make up your mind? You say there's still a possibility that Rishi-X are a scum team, so that would still exist. Twigs as farside... how would my lynch uncover anything about them? Plus, I'm not entirely sure this game centers on YOU making up YOUR mind.
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Post Post #614 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 3:32 am

Post by icemanE »

EBWOP: Twigs and farside*
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Post Post #615 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 4:27 am

Post by farside22 »

I'm trying to get in this. I hope to have something by the end of today for you. If not I will ask for a replacement.
Sorry
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #616 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 5:03 am

Post by Xdaamno »

muffinhead wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:
muffinhead wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:
muffinhead wrote:
What exactly am I doing that you think is scummy? Don't be wishy-washy. If I can then disprove what you find scummy about me, are you going to back off or keep blundering on for the sake of your own pride?
X do u think that just becuase u were at lynch 1 and now have no votes on u currently means that we have all forgotten about u ad no longer sus?

Look back at the whole of page 19 and ealier part of page 20 and tell me there is nothing sus about it. sure u did explain yourself but u changed and revoted sd 3 TIMES in 1 and half pages. So dont call me wishy washy when u done that urself. Thats why u got my vote in the first place, ur desperatly to lynch,then sarcasim.

To do that many sus things of course i have to be aware of the fact u could be scum. I dont forget that none of this happened unlike rishi has.
This is annoying. I asked for a direct answer to that question, because you claim to have one. I didn't ask for your views on whether I was being hypocritical. The information is all rather jumbled at the moment, and since you apparently have such a clear idea why I'm scum I'd like a summary of your reasons.

~ Xdaamno, still awaiting a reply.
If thats not answering ur question then i dont know what is. U asked the question of what have u done thats so scummy to me? That post above is the answer. I really dont know how its jumbled.

No i dont recall saying i have a clear idea ur scum after u explained urself so plz state where i said that. What else do i have to say.
Right, I read that wrong, but I'm still looking for more. In theory, what
about
that was scummy? Sure, I was confused, but I have don't have a clue how you equate that to scuminess. Furthermore, what I said then came AFTER your claim of my certain scuminess iirc.

And my
main
point here is that's incredibly weak reasoning. EVERYONE leaves scum tells at some point, regardless of alignment, and SD has done so much more than I have. Like I said, there's no way OMGUS dosen't come into this.
Of course everyone leaves scumtells i wont deny that but as i have ALREADY said it the amount of scumtells u leave. Lets have a look at them.

A-voting people on poor reasoning eg farside
B-Qucikly voting then unvoting then voting again eg with sd
C-trying to lycnh a clamied doc which is way to risky on day 1
D-Sarcasm to try defend urself
E- Not contributing enough information to finding scum
No longer
F-Not explaining himself
No longer

Now u know y i was convinced u were scum

Now the sritkeouts are the orginal reasons i voted u and because u have explained urself in e and f im no longer loking at u for day 1 lynch.

However I still have 4 differnent scumtells from u which is way more then others and god knows y i havnt got a vote on u. Also i dont have any major leads off others.

Well sd looks incrdibly scummy and i can guarrentie he will not make it into the endgame, however on day 1 im not going to risk lynching him when he can be very usefull if he is town.

Surely that answers all ur questions.
mod prod farside once again
I'm honestly not sure why you can't see so many more tells in SD's post, and I'm going to attribute the fact you haven't given any valid tells whatsoever to your newbishness here; and I hate to say that, ftr.

A: Voting people on poor reasoning is
not
a scum tell, unless you live in a perfect world; and furthermore, this so-called 'tell' is a matter of opinion. My reasoning was strongly theoretical and was based on what scum would psychologically do, which is better than some of the bullcrap meta-tells in mafiascum today, like the ones you've given.

B: You obviously haven't thought this through at all. Can you please explain how a player not being sure on who to vote in
any way
positively correlates with the chance of being scum? Though not.

C: Firstly, I'd like to note that a doctor is not an incredibly important power role; certainly not game-breaking. The main attribute is his confirmability. Therefore, the only risk of lynching him Day 1 is because he has an automatically elevated chance of being town, correct? Now, that is pretty much a multiplication on whatever chance I think he has of being scum; don't get me wrong, if I thought another player was being as scummy and didn't claim doc I'd lynch them ASAP. But the fact of the matter is, for me,
with the doc claim included
, SD_Reaper is still very much below all players on the chance of being town; therefore it's literally craplogic to suggest the doctor claim pardons him when I've taken that into account, kapeesh?

D: Sarcasm to try and defend myself? You do realise sarcasm is a trait of someone playing
more relaxed
? Sarcasm is almost certainly a town tell in my books. Whether it's rude or not is debateable, but you've fallen into one of the large pitfalls of scum tells: how rude a player is does not correlate to their chance of being scum. Furthermore, I wasn't even being rude on purpose, which is the only possible way that could be a tell. So it's either a town tell or a null tell. Take your pick. The crossed-out E and F reasons just make you look like you aren't sure of your own case, which I knew already.

If you want to defend those tells I'm expecting some THEORETICAL reasoning as to why they make me scum; not just the fact they're abnormal.


If you can't reply to why atleast two of the points I've mentioned are a valid theoretical scum tell, you're literally being a dumbass for still, after all this time, playing off OMGUS, picking an easy target, and being a sheep
to society ¬.¬
.
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Post Post #617 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 5:05 am

Post by Xdaamno »

ting =) wrote:@X.
Appeal to authority for an argument? Either way, you took it out of context. The whole discussion was about whether claiming when you know someone is lying is worth it.
No.

Well, another argument over with, because I'm assuming you're joking about 'appeal to authority' :roll:
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Post Post #618 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 5:41 am

Post by icemanE »

Here's how I see it:

SD is the scummiest player here. He has claimed doc. If he actually IS doc, he will be killed tonight. If not, it has been suggested that he be lynched on day two. Therefore, his being doc will do nothing for us. He won't be of any use tonight if he IS doc because he'll be killed. If he IS doc and he makes it to day two, OR if he is scum and makes it to day two, OR if the scum try to throw us off by not lynching SD, then he will be a candidate for lynch on day 2.

My question is, WHY WASTE TIME!?!?!?! IF he's doc he won't be of any use ANYWAY! So what is the point in keeping him here?
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Post Post #619 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 9:12 am

Post by Xdaamno »

icemanE wrote:Here's how I see it:

SD is the scummiest player here. He has claimed doc. If he actually IS doc, he will be killed tonight. If not, it has been suggested that he be lynched on day two. Therefore, his being doc will do nothing for us. He won't be of any use tonight if he IS doc because he'll be killed. If he IS doc and he makes it to day two, OR if he is scum and makes it to day two, OR if the scum try to throw us off by not lynching SD, then he will be a candidate for lynch on day 2.

My question is, WHY WASTE TIME!?!?!?! IF he's doc he won't be of any use ANYWAY! So what is the point in keeping him here?
Right, that's another point: even if he is doc and we don't lynch him (i.e. what you're proposing), he either dies anyway or the scum get a chance to throw in some confusion by not nightkilling him. It's best to avoid the WIFOM in that situation altogether.
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Post Post #620 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Bonus tip: leaving scum alive to go for a possible scum partner increases the risk of a successful roleblock.
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Post Post #621 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 9:45 am

Post by SD_Reaper »

One of my biggest scum tells so far that ice and x seem to be using on me is that "i am pushing for a lynch". Any person with a moderate IQ that is scum, would not blatantly admit to it, its the same as admitting your scum. For me to openly say that i want a lynch somewhat soon i think is a town tell, as no scum would just say that openly.

@ice and xdaamo
the scummiest player, to me, looks like the person who is put in the spotlight the most. Which is me, you two are doing a good job of that. Please tell me some of your other scum tells that i have shown so I can defend myself.
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Post Post #622 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 10:12 am

Post by Rishi »

SD_Reaper wrote:For me to openly say that i want a lynch somewhat soon i think is a town tell, as no scum would just say that openly.
???

Explain.
SD_Reaper wrote: Please tell me some of your other scum tells that i have shown so I can defend myself.
We've (me, X and Iceman) have been pointing out your scumtells all game. Instead of responding to the points we've been making, you've just been screaming, "I'm the doctor! Don't lynch me!"

Read the friggin' game. If you want to avoid getting lynched, you're going to have to do better than just saying you're the doctor and actually consider and respond to what was said earlier.

And X and Ice have convinced me.

Unvote, Vote: SD_Reaper
Taking a break from MS. Please send e-mail if you want to get in touch with me.
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Post Post #623 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 11:27 am

Post by SD_Reaper »

Like i said, the only scum thing i see is that i want a lynch soon.
But whatevers, if you want to lynch me i guess you can. But it will be funny when i get to see the post after i die. Only in newbie games does the doc come out and still get lynched the same day. Maybe im playing the game terribly or acting really scummy, but i am town whether you like it or not. Oh well, at least this lynch will help two of you.
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Post Post #624 (ISO) » Fri May 09, 2008 11:34 am

Post by farside22 »

I'm sorry
MeMe
. I hate doing this, but I'm so far behind and find myself short on time more and more.
Please replace me. My apologies to the newbs who joined.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.

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