Mature Mafia: Game Over

[Adel]

I'm waiting for a Pm back from our mod.

I sent a PM saying:

I'm sure you are getting many PMs from other players.

My I edit the first post of the game to include

No player (living or dead) is allowed to edit any post without the consensus of more than 50% of living players or the explicit permission of EmpTyger.

[Adel]

I got a response. It wasn't clear.

Does anyone mind if I quote it?

[logicticus]

I'm waiting for a Pm back from our mod.

I sent a PM saying:

I'm sure you are getting many PMs from other players.

My I edit the first post of the game to include

No player (living or dead) is allowed to edit any post without the consensus of more than 50% of living players or the explicit permission of EmpTyger.

this is so worthless, i dont understand one instance in which it would be acceptable for anyone to edit anyones posts.

THIS IS A TEST EDIT BY GLORK

[Glork]

Holy crap.

I just now realized that we can edit one anothers' posts.

I was operating under the assumption that one specific player had this abilty.

Unvote

[logicticus]

and its not enforceable to make that rule because i am pretty sure you can edit other peoples posts and not leave a trail.


someone edit this post and we shall find out....

[Glork]

Yep. Trailless. See 52, logic.


This may go without saying, but I think we all need to agree that no protown player should edit any posts from here on out. That way, any reported/confirmed edits are known to come from scum.

[Coron]

No one should edit other people's posts, and any edits of one's own posts would be for things like if I miscounted votes. Major content revisions are anti-town.

[Glork]

Exactly.

[mathcam]

I agree with Adel, at least as far as how unclear the rules are. If we're in the "It's up to us to follow the rules" mode, then editing a post is modkillable. I suspect that this isn't quite our position, and that our mod will of a more

laissez-faire

stance. On the other hand, if there are no rules whatsoever, what's to stop us all from quoting our role PMs and ending the game right now? I'm not sure what to make of this, other than the fact that it seems like we're in the middle of a gigantic social experiment.

For the time-being, I agree with Glork that the pro-town among us should vow not to make any edits (unless clearly marked, as in Adel's case earlier).

Cam

[Adel]

Proposed rule #1

Rules posted within the first post (post#0) are official and binding to all players. These rules shall be self-enforced since we are all mature enough to handle the responsibility.

Proposed rule #2

No player (living or dead) is allowed to edit any post (including post#0) without the consensus of more than 50% of living players or the explicit permission of EmpTyger.

[rajrhcpfreak]

Wow, Raj. I think that is possibly the worst "analysis" I have ever seen. The game is under 35 posts old, and you are criticizing for a 1st post vote, being "helpful" but failing to analyze "voting trends," for not providing "real content," using "tunnel vision" and "avoiding other conversations." Absolutely the most horrid, slanted, 1-sided, hack job based on nothing I've ever read.

ok, those few posts made me question you.

i made a statement saying that i think i have the same hunch.

i was questioned about it by multiple people, so i explained.

and i think this is the worst omgus in the world. i didn't even vote for you. i just agreed with a guy saying that he has a hunch to vote for you. now you are voting me for explaining my statement.

and usually i wouldn't defend my gut, but since two of your scum buddies openly questioned it too, i decided to explain.

i wont vote now, because my gut is telling me to vote for the scumbag continuously attacking me for trying to read people's posts. i guess if i took your approach and wait for someone else's lead then i wouldn't have to worry about people calling me out.

oh btw, im VLA until sunday night, prolly after survivor.


EBWOP: i agree with all the talk on editing. i dont edit posts, i doubt i will ever do it. i also dont see why a protown player would do it. its like lying when you are protown, it automaticly discredits anything you say when you are outted.

[Axelrod]

@Adel: I am with logicticus here, proposing "rules" that we all agree to follow is completely worthless. If the scum if this game are being allowed to make significant edits to other player's posts, including death reveal posts (which destroys the integrity of the game in my opinion), then why would they stop because you proposed a rule?

The game doesn't work unless everyone plays fair. Perhaps this is the experiment - to see whether or not the scum would actually do so when not forced by Mod. If so, based just on what I've seen so far, this game is crashing and burning. Hopefully, that's not what's actually going on.

[Glork]

FYI, I'm really interested to see where this RAJ/Axel thing goes. My hunch was not what RAJ saw.


I would absolutely be interested in a binding agreement as

forum members

(as opposed to players/roles in this game) that would tie us to the same rules one typically sees in a conventional mafia game.



Also, Fun Fact:

Mafia Specific Rules

• Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.
• Do not edit/delete posts.
• Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok.
• Do not talk after you are dead or replaced. Some moderators do allow contentless "Bah!" posts, but you should never reveal information once you are dead.

Note especially "Do not edit/delete posts."

We may bend (or waive altogether) the last rule, if it is up to a dead individual to reveal one's own role. If this is the case, I would strongly suggest we create a binding rule that players must reveal their alignments and roles truthfully. Failure to adhere to this rule really invalidates the game as a whole, and it creates a very empty victory for the eventual "winners."

[Glork]

EBWOP: In fact, as somebody has already violated that rule, I strongly suggest that they fess up and allow us to modkill them. That was seriously not cool. At all.

[elvis_knits]

By mature mafia, does that mean that we are effectivly playing a mod-less game where we have to come together like adults and agree upon what rules we will follow? Can we realisiticly expect the scum to agree in good faith?

Or is there a hidden set of rules, and one player (presumably scum) is allowed to edit posts? That would be an important thing to know.

Coron sauid something about posting a votecount later, which led me to suspect that we are alone here without a moderator. If this is the case then the basic parameters of this game are the functions of the forum software and whatever we agree to.

I believe we are playing a modless game.

The mod has given us roles to police the game ourselves, and chosen us as the sort of people to play fairly without supervision.

Some reasons I think we are modless: before the game started I pm'ed the mod a question and the answer was essentially "you are a big girl, figure it out for yourself."

Also, part of my role includes a mod duty. I can reveal what that is now or at some later point, but I don't think it matters too much at the moment. So I won't say unless the majority wants to know what it is. The point is, after seeing Coron is in charge of the VC, and knowing my role duty, I think the game could conceivably run without mod intervention.

I think agreeing on some rules would be helpful. If everyone in this game can't agree to refrain from editing posts or deleting posts, then they should excuse themselves from the game. There are other things to agree upon also.

If there is anyone in this game who cannot or will not proceed with a modless game, YOU NEED TO RESIGN FROM THE GAME.

[Axelrod]

You know, almost this same topic came up just recently with respect to another game on site which DG is well familiar with:

viewtopic.php?t=8232

The Mod. went AWOL, but because it was a "nightless" game, technically the players could continue, they just had to agree amongst themselves that they would honestly reveal their alignments after they were lynched. Vollkan, as scum, felt like he was not obligated to go along with this, even that it was his duty as scum trying to win to lie. Most people disagreed, and I think even Vollkan himself came round to realizing that his position was wrong, and he should not have continued to play if that was going to be his attitude.

As a game

with

Nights, things are even more complex here. I'm not prepared to say it can't work out. But I'm concerned.

A "pledge" that everyone is going to be honest is pointless though. Either you agree that the game just can't work at all without a certain amount of honesty, in which case no "pledge" is needed, or you don't, in which case your pledge would be worthless.

[Glork]

DISCLAIMER: The upcoming post does not necessarily reflect what my own role may or may not be/include. I am merely using it as the simplest example I can think of off the top of my head, so as to make a point to Axel.

Consider the case of a mountainous game (aside from "mod powers" such as VCing). At night, the Mafia could simply PM their target saying something along the lines of "We are killing you. Please open the thread and reveal your role to the other players" -- perhaps even from an alt/anonymous account. The deceased player (n this case, Zu_Faul) complies, and the rest of us move on with our lives.

In the absence of a "killer" alt for PMing purposes, a situation such as the above example would create an interesting scenario in which the scums would have to rely on victims' honesty to not reveal their identities while the town relies on the scums to reveal themselves truthfully and to adhere to conventional game rules.

[Glork]

EBWOP:

A "pledge" that everyone is going to be honest is pointless though. Either you agree that the game just can't work at all without a certain amount of honesty, in which case no "pledge" is needed, or you don't, in which case your pledge would be worthless.

Rather than a pledge, simply have each player acknowledge that they need to be honest. That's what the point of the suggested "pledge" is, anyway. I think you're making a big deal out of nothing here.

[Axelrod]

DISCLAIMER: The upcoming post does not necessarily reflect what my own role may or may not be/include. I am merely using it as the simplest example I can think of off the top of my head, so as to make a point to Axel.

Consider the case of a mountainous game (aside from "mod powers" such as VCing). At night, the Mafia could simply PM their target saying something along the lines of "We are killing you. Please open the thread and reveal your role to the other players" -- perhaps even from an alt/anonymous account. The deceased player (n this case, Zu_Faul) complies, and the rest of us move on with our lives.

In the absence of a "killer" alt for PMing purposes, a situation such as the above example would create an interesting scenario in which the scums would have to rely on victims' honesty to not reveal their identities while the town relies on the scums to reveal themselves truthfully and to adhere to conventional game rules.

I'm not sure what the point you are making here is?

[Axelrod]

Rather than a pledge, simply have each player acknowledge that they need to be honest. That's what the point of the suggested "pledge" is, anyway. I think you're making a big deal out of nothing here.

I'm not making a "deal" out of anything. I just don't understand why you think this would make any difference at all. Do you actually think the scum (if they don't already agree with this position) are going to have any compunctions

saying

that they agree with it?

[elvis_knits]

Axel, I am aware of the game with vollkan lying about his revealed role.

If you read the thread, vollkan agrees that he was wrong to lie, because he was not acting as his role at that moment. He was acting as mod.

SO... when I said before this is a modless game, I think that is the wrong way to look at it.

We have to play like we are all mods. A mod would not lie about the alignment of a player, even if that player were themselves. Because they are acting as mod.

So we all must agree to be mods of this game.

Along the lines of what Glork is saying...

I might as well reveal what exactly I know about game mechanics here. I think it will help clear some things up and prepare everyone for today's lynch. My role includes, but may or may not be limited to:

Executioner. When one player reaches majority for lynch, I PM them and they must immediately self-reveal in thread.

If I die, I don't know if the executioner duty will be given to someone else. So we have to all agree to self-reveal if we are voted to a lynch. Even while I am alive, someone could refuse to reveal even after I PM them. So, we all have to agree.

And remember, when you self-reveal you are acting as mod, and not as your player role. So you must be honest.

[logicticus]

Alright, I think we are now just repeating ourselves and I would like to get us on track so I will summarize what seems to be the gist of this:

It appears that we are all the mods in some respect in this game meaning there is no central authority figure. Even though the ability to edit posts is available for anyone to use, it would destroy the integrity of the the game to do so (Winning by cheating isnt really winning after all...). Finally, upon death, it would also be immoral to lie about your role.

I hope this ends that.

I want to go back to the raj/axel interaction because thats the most pertinent part of this game thus far. I dont like rajs post 60 because he throws in more hyperbole in my opinion. He calls axels post an OMGUS and then tosses in the fact that the two people who agreed on an explanation must be scumbuddies. Combine this with his explanation post that also threw the "kitchen sink" around and I dont like it.

[Glork]

Rather than a pledge, simply have each player acknowledge that they need to be honest. That's what the point of the suggested "pledge" is, anyway. I think you're making a big deal out of nothing here.

I'm not making a "deal" out of anything. I just don't understand why you think this would make any difference at all. Do you actually think the scum (if they don't already agree with this position) are going to have any compunctions

saying

that they agree with it?

I want to completely, 100% avoid any possible scenario such as what happened witih Vollkan in the nightless, mod-abandoned game. So yes, I do think that it would have a difference. It's important to make impress upon everyone that we are speaking not as our roles, but outside of the game. Feh. Maybe I'm the one making a big deal out of nothing.

[Adel]

Code: Select all

Vote Tally
----------
rajrhcpfreak (1): elvis_knits
logicticus (1): DrippingGoofball
coron (1): Axelrod
elvis (1): rajrhcpfreak
explicit (1): Adel
count (1): Coron
mathcam (4): Macros, Phoebus, Talitha, PookyTheMagicalBear

FoS Tally
---------

Log Summary
-----------
elvis_knits casts first vote for rajrhcpfreak.
Coron casts first vote for dgb.
Coron unvotes for dgb leaving 0 vote(s).
Coron casts first vote for count.
Axelrod casts first vote for coron.
rajrhcpfreak casts first vote for elvis.
Glork casts first vote for phoebus.
Macros casts first vote for mathcam.
Phoebus casts vote 2 for mathcam.
DrippingGoofball casts first vote for logicticus.
Adel casts vote 1 for dgb.
Glork unvotes for phoebus leaving 0 vote(s).
Glork casts first vote for axelrod.
Talitha casts vote 3 for mathcam.
PookyTheMagicalBear casts vote 4 for mathcam.
Adel unvotes for dgb leaving 0 vote(s).
Adel casts first vote for talitha.
Adel unvotes for talitha leaving 0 vote(s).
Adel casts first vote for explicit.
Glork unvotes for axelrod leaving 0 vote(s).

Player Summary for Adel
-----------------------
25.0% of total activity (5/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for dgb
(0) Cast vote 1 for talitha
(0) Cast vote 1 for explicit

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for dgb leaving 0
(0) Removed vote for talitha leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Adel has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for rajrhcpfreak
-------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for elvis

Unvotes
-------
rajrhcpfreak has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
rajrhcpfreak has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for PookyTheMagicalBear
--------------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 4 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
PookyTheMagicalBear has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
PookyTheMagicalBear has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Coron
------------------------
15.0% of total activity (3/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for dgb
(0) Cast vote 1 for count

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for dgb leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Coron has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for elvis_knits
------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for rajrhcpfreak

Unvotes
-------
elvis_knits has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
elvis_knits has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for DrippingGoofball
-----------------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for logicticus

Unvotes
-------
DrippingGoofball has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
DrippingGoofball has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Macros
-------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Macros has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Macros has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Talitha
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 3 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Talitha has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Talitha has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Glork
------------------------
20.0% of total activity (4/20)
------------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for phoebus
(0) Cast vote 1 for axelrod

Unvotes
-------
(0) Removed vote for phoebus leaving 0
(0) Removed vote for axelrod leaving 0

Fingers
-------
Glork has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Axelrod
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 1 for coron

Unvotes
-------
Axelrod has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Axelrod has not pointed any fingers



Player Summary for Phoebus
--------------------------
5.0% of total activity (1/20)
-----------------------------
Votes
-------
(0) Cast vote 2 for mathcam

Unvotes
-------
Phoebus has not unvoted

Fingers
-------
Phoebus has not pointed any fingers

thanks to weilawei and the script he posted at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8316

[Talitha]

So your vote for "explicit" and Coron's vote for "count" count?

Vote: ditch the lame script
unvote: ditch
vote: mathcam