Mini #553: Over!

[Matt_S]

The whaddya know, it's still the same Vote Count!

Votes required:

5 to lynch

massive

-

destructor,

Qman

-

massive

Not Voting:

5, BridgesAndBalloons, Qman, Shamrock, Ting =), Khelvaster, Matt_S[

Is Matt_S actually confirmed innocent?

Depends on if you believe there's safeclaims

[ting =)]

Actually, I think if we're going to do it, the earlier the better.

But we've already heard that at least two players have non-fellowship role names and I'd be surprised if scum haven't been given safe claims anyway, which makes me cynical to how effective it would be.

That. It's the only time any other player besides khel said anything about doing it.

[destructor]

I think that doing something like a nameclaim is more likely to out scum if done earlier. The longer the game goes, the more information scum are given to effectively fake-claim. I was drawing attention to this point. If you disagree, tell me why. I think that's a pretty solid theory, though.

[ting =)]

I don't disagree with that. I was just pointing out that it was the only post that even considered doing the nameclaim besides khel's when he suggested it. I don't see why we're arguing over this though. My point was that for someone to agree with a nameclaim suggestion, he either has to have a name, or a safeclaim. I believe that you are one of those two.

[Imat]

Matt: A continuation:
Post 71: Again, this is such a pathetic vote. You give so many reasons for Khel being a Power Role, you even say your gut tells you he is a PR, then yu vote him with the flimsy excuse "I guess he is too fishy to let go..." Whats worse, this comes from CoolBot's persuasion. I can't see Town falling for CB's cased after defending somebody so much. I can see Scum looking at their partner's easy case and following their lead.
Post 75: You say we sould vote for Khel because he'sthe best case. Two big things worng with that: 1. You are undecided either way, and 2. Zyrc is lurking, which you openly say you'll give him a free ride for. Usually Lurkers tend to be better cases than someone with no strong feeling either way, wouldn't you say? Also in this post you sa that Khel is associating Fellowship with PR's. Which isn't necessarily true. Certainly if we ony have 2 or 3 Fellowship members Khel would do so, but personally I think he was thinking, and he stated this himself several times, that the game was a 9-3 Town to Scum ratio, so having all 9 Town in the Fellowship wouldn't be unheard of. He was trying to break the game, to find Scum though the easiest method, not to out PR's. Also, is it aother typo which made you say a Townie WOULD try a mass nameclaim on D1? Because that would mean you're leaning Khel for Town, yet you still vote him. Nvm, you explain it as a typo.
Post 82: Once again you say a Mass Nameclaim "would probably benefit the Town more," yet you say you don't know why someone would call for a Mass Nameclaim or why Khel did, specifically. This seems to me like oyu'r trying to accuse someone with blame you don't truly believe. Which is something Scum do, not Town.
Post 89: Not much here really, just speculation on my part: You feel the need to summarze your argument against Khel once again. Was this to try to get others to believe your case? Or were you havng your own doubts about it? The action seems Scummy, but not terribly so. And once again you ompletely miss Khel's point in asking for people outside of the Fellowship. You seem to do that a lot.
Post 91: Bad. Very bad. You unFoS Eljcko after having an off-topic discssion with him, then you UnVote Khel becaue you don't want the day to end too quickly. I can understand you Unvoting ifyou didn't believe your case anymoe, or even if he had votes on him, but you fet others would knowlingly quicklynch him if you kept your vote on him. So, beside the obvious fct that if you'reworried about a quicklynch, chances are others are as well and won't do it. However, on the offchance that people do vote him, they wouldn't vote to lynch. Scum might, if they wanted to out themselves for practically nothing, but Town has he same ideas as other Town. Your Unvot was completely unnecessary and, IMO, very Scummy.
Post 101: See posts 102 and 103. Yea, I'm referring you to posts by two players, Massive and Khel, who both completely disagree with your logic.
Post 112: You say you wanted answers from Khel, yet you needed to be sure others wouldback you up. Are you so uncertain of your case at this point that yu can't possibly accuse him by yourself?
Post 130: Can't see this as Town or Scum, it was a bad post either way. If youre Town, which means you weren't lying about being a nameless Vanilla, then CB's not saying he doesn't have a name is just as supicious as you not saying you don't have a name. Which is what you did, BTW. On the other hand, why throw your partner under thebus so quickly with so little pressure? Hence why I can't see this coming from either pespective, quite honestly...
Post 168: Again, you ned anoth player's support to vote somebody? Why not just act on your suspicions, take the lead. If we allwaited for someone else's support, the game would never getanywhere.
Post 174: I lol'ed at. "Other than me voting you and saying you were suspicious, what makes you think I wanted you to get lynched? " Usually finding someone supicious AND voting them is pretty telling of your desire to see them lynched, at least at that point in time. What makes you hink people want yu lynched, they don't vote you and take great pais not to look into your actions?
Post 183: Are your suspicions of Khel gone by now? Because once again you're defending him.
Post 217: After numerous cases against you and suspicionsrunning rampant, you questio why a player wants you lynched? Why question it? The answer is pretty obvous...
Post 232: You state opely that Fellowship implies Town and vice versa. This is completely diferent from your idea of the Fellowship earlier, when you said Fellowship had to be Power Roles, which is what you accused Khel for trying to exploit. When did your view on this change?
Post 252: deleted by the Mod, but you post a summary o your role PM. Its possible that you expected the Mod to delete this post and so did't worry about the content. Its possible you guessed at the basic jist of the PM, since this was a summary. Its also possible that you are a Townie and truly though summarizing your Role PM wouldn't gt you in trouble with the Mod and would clear you. Personally, I want to believe the latter is the most likely, but your actions beforehand force me to rethink the validity of it. FTR, I can't remember what was posted in this post, just that you summarized your PM.
Post 275: Say you're waitig for a votecount, but don't post for another two days. i something come up IRL? I'm not really accusig you here, it just seems wierd. Like when I said I'd post tomorrow a few days ago and then things came up...
Post 285: You want to drop the whole name thing. I can see this from an Unnamed Vanilla, or from Scum in general, unless they do have Safeclaims.
Post 328: You condemn Eljcko for not having a name, yet you can't see why people thinking you're Scummy for claiming unnamed?
Post 340: "I could have quoted my safeclaim." Now we know why you believe Scum to have safeclaims. Its because you have a Safeclaim! Which inevitably implies you are Scum.
Post 353: Did you form any conlusion based on the fact that I voted Talitha for what I thought was Scummy behavior?
Post 355: Why do you think a Vig wouldnt kill CoolBot? Wasn't he one of the top suspects of Day 1?
Post 373: Ah, this explains it. You felt he looked less Scummy than the other two...

Well, that sums up the latter part of my reread...No onto explanations from before...
Ok, here it is: I expect Scum to go after Power Roles first, which is a valid assumption. Each claimed Vanilla gives them one less target to worry about when guessing at the PR's. Also, you state you think you'll be the NK, so why wouln't I assume you thought Khel wouldn't be the NK? Unless, of course, you are the fourth killing group and had already decided to kill Khel...
Is funny how you completely missed my point that Vanilla's could have no names and you guessed at that fact, due to the huge frequency of unnamed Townies. Again, its all about how much you can get away with, and your hints make it seem more like you're guessing at the secret instead of kowing it.

Much of that post, 431, seems like Stawmaning (That is the right term, right?). You sem to ignore most of my points in favor of those you can stop quickly and easily.

Vote: Matt_S

Also,

Mod:

I am officially requesting replacement, if its not too much trouble, due to the onset of Tests over the next few weeks. I'll try and play until you can find a replacemnt for me, but just know that I won't have as much time for awhile.

[shaka!!]

Also,

Mod:

I am officially requesting replacement, if its not too much trouble, due to the onset of Tests over the next few weeks. I'll try and play until you can find a replacemnt for me, but just know that I won't have as much time for awhile.

That is unfortunate, finding players to replace into a 19 page game isn't easy. Good luck on your tests though.

[Matt_S]

Vote Imat

. I don't like being accused of strawmaning, especially when I answered all your points. You also seem to be picking at what I wrote without listening to a damn thing that I've said. You also seem to ignore the concept of pressure votes, as well as the fact that

my vote won't matter if I can't get a majority of the players to agree

. I'll also bring up, again, the fact that you never mentioned anything about those posts prior to now that you found scummy. All you did was fos me or vote me, simply saying that I was scummy. Oh, and I explained why I was for an eljcko lynch.

[Imat]

I have, actually. I've analyzed your posts in the past, just not all of them together. I've pointed at your weak argument for voting Khel several times, for example.

So here comes an important question: If you won't vote somebody who you think others will vote for, and you won't vote someone if you don't think others will vote them, then when will you vote someone? And if these contradictory statements on your part hold true, why did you vote so much yesterday?

And no, you didn't answer to all my posts. You convenietly ignored the fact that I was calling you Scum trying to guess at a reason for the Nameclaim not to work, even though you completely recognized that most Townie roles don't have names. So, there it is. I'm saying you're intelligent Scum who can make a resonable deduction. You seemed to miss that particular point when you went over my other analysis.

And again, if you like pressure votes why did you unvote Khel who had one vote on him instead of keeping pressure on him? Either you believed him to be a Power Role, which is silly because you said many times before that that you didn't, or you didn't actually want pressure on him.

I'm trying to hunt Scum here, Matt, and you fit the bill. Comng out with OMGUS doesn't refute the evidence I've stated. True, I've looked at it from the MattScum perspective, but I hardly think the MattTown perspective will hold up.

And thank you Shaka. If you can survive with a mostly inactive player, I'd be glad to stick around. This game, however, needs more activity if it is to survive...

[shaka!!]

Shamrock replaces Mert, effective immediately.

[Shamrock]

Hi! Reading through the thread, will post later.

[Matt_S]

If you won't vote somebody who you think others will vote for, and you won't vote someone if you don't think others will vote them, then when will you vote someone? And if these contradictory statements on your part hold true, why did you vote so much yesterday?

The flaw with your argument is thinking that not wanting a quicklynch is the same as not wanting votes in general. That assumption is obviously false.

And no, you didn't answer to all my posts. You convenietly ignored the fact that I was calling you Scum trying to guess at a reason for the Nameclaim not to work, even though you completely recognized that most Townie roles don't have names. So, there it is. I'm saying you're intelligent Scum who can make a resonable deduction. You seemed to miss that particular point when you went over my other analysis.

Yeah, the only possible response to that is "you're wrong". The fact that I didn't respond that way doesn't mean a damn thing. I can't refute your speculation, only the actual points you make.

And again, if you like pressure votes why did you unvote Khel who had one vote on him instead of keeping pressure on him? Either you believed him to be a Power Role, which is silly because you said many times before that that you didn't, or you didn't actually want pressure on him.

The thing about pressure votes is that just one usually doesn't do a damn thing. When I think my vote can be put to better use, I put it to better use.

I'm trying to hunt Scum here, Matt, and you fit the bill. Comng out with OMGUS doesn't refute the evidence I've stated. True, I've looked at it from the MattScum perspective, but I hardly think the MattTown perspective will hold up.

You seem to ignore the fact that I've refuted all the points in your first analysis, and that your second analysis ignores most of my posts. If it makes you happy, I'll go back and refute every little point you made.

Post 71: Again, this is such a pathetic vote. You give so many reasons for Khel being a Power Role, you even say your gut tells you he is a PR, then yu vote him with the flimsy excuse "I guess he is too fishy to let go..." Whats worse, this comes from CoolBot's persuasion. I can't see Town falling for CB's cased after defending somebody so much. I can see Scum looking at their partner's easy case and following their lead.

Where did I ever say that my gut said Khelvaster was a power role? What reasons did I ever give for him not being scum other than "scum wouldn't do that"?

Post 75: You say we sould vote for Khel because he'sthe best case. Two big things worng with that: 1. You are undecided either way, and 2. Zyrc is lurking, which you openly say you'll give him a free ride for. Usually Lurkers tend to be better cases than someone with no strong feeling either way, wouldn't you say? Also in this post you sa that Khel is associating Fellowship with PR's. Which isn't necessarily true. Certainly if we ony have 2 or 3 Fellowship members Khel would do so, but personally I think he was thinking, and he stated this himself several times, that the game was a 9-3 Town to Scum ratio, so having all 9 Town in the Fellowship wouldn't be unheard of. He was trying to break the game, to find Scum though the easiest method, not to out PR's. Also, is it aother typo which made you say a Townie WOULD try a mass nameclaim on D1? Because that would mean you're leaning Khel for Town, yet you still vote him. Nvm, you explain it as a typo.

Sorry, try again. I never asked anybody else to vote for Khelvaster. The fact that Khelvaster's actions puzzle me is completely irrelevant, and I never said I'd kive Zyrconium a free pass, just that I thought Khelvaster was a better option.

Post 82: Once again you say a Mass Nameclaim "would probably benefit the Town more," yet you say you don't know why someone would call for a Mass Nameclaim or why Khel did, specifically. This seems to me like oyu'r trying to accuse someone with blame you don't truly believe. Which is something Scum do, not Town.

Sorry, try again. I've said many times why I thought that Khelvaster would call for a nameclaim as scum, such as thinking he could find power roles. Again, not being certain about someone's intentions doesn't mean you can't make a case against them.

Post 89: Not much here really, just speculation on my part: You feel the need to summarze your argument against Khel once again. Was this to try to get others to believe your case? Or were you havng your own doubts about it? The action seems Scummy, but not terribly so. And once again you ompletely miss Khel's point in asking for people outside of the Fellowship. You seem to do that a lot.

So I should believe the scummy person's after the fact explanation for his actions with no questions asked? Well that's just stupid.

Post 91: Bad. Very bad. You unFoS Eljcko after having an off-topic discssion with him, then you UnVote Khel becaue you don't want the day to end too quickly. I can understand you Unvoting ifyou didn't believe your case anymoe, or even if he had votes on him, but you fet others would knowlingly quicklynch him if you kept your vote on him. So, beside the obvious fct that if you'reworried about a quicklynch, chances are others are as well and won't do it. However, on the offchance that people do vote him, they wouldn't vote to lynch. Scum might, if they wanted to out themselves for practically nothing, but Town has he same ideas as other Town. Your Unvot was completely unnecessary and, IMO, very Scummy.

Sorry, all I can hear from this is that not wanting a quicklynch is bad. And I never said they would quicklynch him intentionally.

Post 101: See posts 102 and 103. Yea, I'm referring you to posts by two players, Massive and Khel, who both completely disagree with your logic.

Sorry, how does this point to me being scum?

Post 112: You say you wanted answers from Khel, yet you needed to be sure others wouldback you up. Are you so uncertain of your case at this point that yu can't possibly accuse him by yourself?

Again, it takes a majority to lynch. If I don't think I'll get anyone else, then why bother?

Post 130: Can't see this as Town or Scum, it was a bad post either way. If youre Town, which means you weren't lying about being a nameless Vanilla, then CB's not saying he doesn't have a name is just as supicious as you not saying you don't have a name. Which is what you did, BTW. On the other hand, why throw your partner under thebus so quickly with so little pressure? Hence why I can't see this coming from either pespective, quite honestly...

I'm giving my opinion. Is there a problem?

Post 168: Again, you ned anoth player's support to vote somebody? Why not just act on your suspicions, take the lead. If we allwaited for someone else's support, the game would never getanywhere.

Again, if I don't think I can sway people, why bother?

Post 174: I lol'ed at. "Other than me voting you and saying you were suspicious, what makes you think I wanted you to get lynched? " Usually finding someone supicious AND voting them is pretty telling of your desire to see them lynched, at least at that point in time. What makes you hink people want yu lynched, they don't vote you and take great pais not to look into your actions?

Pressure votes. Answers come before lynches.

Post 183: Are your suspicions of Khel gone by now? Because once again you're defending him.

How in the heck is this defending him? I'm answering somebody's question about Khelvaster. Please try harder.

Post 217: After numerous cases against you and suspicionsrunning rampant, you questio why a player wants you lynched? Why question it? The answer is pretty obvous...

1. Talitha made no case. Asking for reasons is in no way scummy. 2. Notice the damn smiley?

Post 232: You state opely that Fellowship implies Town and vice versa. This is completely diferent from your idea of the Fellowship earlier, when you said Fellowship had to be Power Roles, which is what you accused Khel for trying to exploit. When did your view on this change?

Well, it's pretty damn obvious that the Fellowship Khelvaster mentioned was the named people from the books. My PM called me fellowship, but I wasn't anyone from the book. I explain what fellowship means in the context of my PM. Please try harder, because this is just boring.

Post 252: deleted by the Mod, but you post a summary o your role PM. Its possible that you expected the Mod to delete this post and so did't worry about the content. Its possible you guessed at the basic jist of the PM, since this was a summary. Its also possible that you are a Townie and truly though summarizing your Role PM wouldn't gt you in trouble with the Mod and would clear you. Personally, I want to believe the latter is the most likely, but your actions beforehand force me to rethink the validity of it. FTR, I can't remember what was posted in this post, just that you summarized your PM.

You're speculating again. And you're assuming that the mod would delete a random guess about the townie pm.

Post 275: Say you're waitig for a votecount, but don't post for another two days. i something come up IRL? I'm not really accusig you here, it just seems wierd. Like when I said I'd post tomorrow a few days ago and then things came up...

Yeah, I don't always get online every day. Please keep things relevant.

Post 285: You want to drop the whole name thing. I can see this from an Unnamed Vanilla, or from Scum in general, unless they do have Safeclaims.

Funny how this is admittedly a null tell.

Post 328: You condemn Eljcko for not having a name, yet you can't see why people thinking you're Scummy for claiming unnamed?

See, this is why you need to learn to read. Saying "this is just a coincidence, I swear" didn't make his claim look better. Besides, his lack of a name wasn't why I wanted him lynched.

Post 340: "I could have quoted my safeclaim." Now we know why you believe Scum to have safeclaims. Its because you have a Safeclaim! Which inevitably implies you are Scum.

Yes, I point out the fact that I'm not confirmed, so I must be scum for clearing up confusion. Try harder.

Post 353: Did you form any conlusion based on the fact that I voted Talitha for what I thought was Scummy behavior?

I came to a conclusion that a case made by a serial killer probably isn't a good case to follow.

Post 355: Why do you think a Vig wouldnt kill CoolBot? Wasn't he one of the top suspects of Day 1?
Post 373: Ah, this explains it. You felt he looked less Scummy than the other two...

Yeah, I thought Mrs. "I want to lynch this guy just to find his alignment" and Mr. "I'm not providing any real content" were scummy.

Welcome, Shamrock.

[Shamrock]

Although I read pretty much the whole thing, there is way too much in this thread for me to want to go over every post, not to mention that much of it goes around and around in pointless circles. I therefore am mostly going to confine what comments I have to day 2.

===

However, the third kill confuses me. I really don't want anybody to claim, but I think we either have another SK or a messed up Doc. I have no idea how common CPR Docs are, or if anybody would blindly protect as one, but I don't think the Mod would put in three killing groups either...

This post struck me as a little odd (not necessarily town or scum, just odd). I'm not sure what to think of the fact that you would think of a role as obscure as a CPR Doc (which I've only even heard of because I was clicking random links on the wiki earlier) before thinking of the possibility of a vig. It doesn't seem at all unlikely that there's a vig in a game this size, and it's not really three killing groups given that vigs are protown and forced vigs are extremely rare.

I don't think we have anything to gain by outing the vig at this point, though.

===

I don't think we can learn a whole lot from guessing who killed who. However, I will say that I think CoolBot was killed by crazy_vlad just because I have a hard time seeing a vig kill CoolBot.

Why do you say this, given that there was, although not quite a bandwagon, a decent amount of suspicion being raised about Coolbot by several people during day 2? Admittedly, Tabitha could have been a vig kill too, but the people attacking her seemed to just be annoyed with her erratic voting pattern and desire for the day to end (and after having to read through 13 pages of that, I know I sure wanted it to end too) rather than being genuinely suspicious of her as scum, as they were with Coolbot.

Also consider that vlad was having a little tiff with Tabitha back there somewhere (again, I don't feel like dredging up the quote as at the time I didn't think it would be relevant but it is now that I think about it, but it's back there if you feel like looking) so it seems likely that he might have chosen to kill her. She was voting for him at one point and such, so he might have seen her as a threat (though I can't imagine he could have guessed she was a cop).

===

I'm somewhat conflicted with regards to Khelvaster.

Yeah, I haven't posted because I've been too lost in this firestorm. Massive/Qman isn't going anywhere. I didn't want to draw their ire by "derailing" their argument.

This post made me raise an eyebrow. It smells suspiciously of "I'm scum trying to divert attention and waiting to attack the side that the argument is leaning towards". Actually, while I wasn't getting a scummy vibe from Khelvaster day 1 (I agree with those who say that a nameclaim wasn't an entirely invalid thing to propose, but the argument is just going around and around in circles and I don't think I have anything useful to add there so I'm not going to rehash why), a lot of his posts day 2 have felt somewhat scummy. It seems as though he was afraid he attracted too much attention and opposition on day 1 and decided to lurk; he hasn't been posting, but it's obviously not because he's unable to, given that he said above that he was just abstaining from posting, and he actually chose not to say anything until he absolutely had to in response to massive's accusations, although posting "chirpchirpchirp" to confirm that he was still around.

The safeclaim argument is frankly giving me a headache at the moment. I'll see if I can reread the last few pages to wrap my head around what you guys are saying with regards to that tomorrow.

Admittedly a large part of what I feel is off about Khelvaster is just bad vibes, so I don't really feel comfortable voting for him yet (I will think more about my position with regards to him once I go over the safeclaim thing again as I don't feel I'm ready to comment there yet). I will, however,

FoS: Khelvaster

.

===

Imat is the one that sticks out to me as particularly scummy. His posts seem to jump back and forth between being absurdly aggressive as though trying to get a bandwagon started and being very defensive as though afraid of looking too much like scum. Here are a few posts of his from while ago (ok I guess I lied about all my commentary being from day 2):

Ah, finally got the chance to reread CoolBot's posts. His recent posts do seem somewhat...Defensive, would be the proper word, though who wouldn't be when faced with several votes. However, they are not as suspicious as I had first said because he hasn't tried to turn it around onto anybody else, he maintains his own innocence without trying to push blame onto the first person he sees.

Given that we now know Coolbot was the Godfather, this smells an awful lot to me like mafia trying to cover his ass in case Coolbot died so he could point and say "look I was acting suspicious about him" but avoid actually starting a bandwagon or anything.

That's not the main thing that strikes me as off about Imat's posts, though. The main thing is his dogged persistence in attacking Matt_S, which comes from... I don't know, actually, it just seems to come from nowhere. First we have this post:

<snip>
As it stands I haven't really seen scummy behavior, at least, nothing that guarantees scum, from any of the players. I, personally, don't like the bandwagon approach, it seems to me that it can be taken advantage of too easily.

Therefore I won't vote for either Matt_s or Khel without a good idea of their scumminess.

I need further evidence, particularly from those who aren't posting, before deciding.
<snip>

Then, with only a few posts in between (just Ting and Matt expressing suspicions of Coolbot, nothing to do with the bandwagon on Matt), he suddenly changes his mind:

FoS: Matt_S

Despite large amounts of evidence, all of which he agrees with, saying that CoolBot is Scum, Matt still maintains his vote on Khel, whom he used to agree with and recently bandwagonned against. He had a rather pitiful excuse to vote for Khel too, considering right before he said he wouldn't vote Khel for the lynch because he believed him to be Town, and, correct me if I'm wrong, a power role. This seems suspicious to me, and I'll let Matt answer to that.

What

large amount of evidence? Absolutely nothing was brought up with regards to Matt since his last post, where he said... that there wasn't enough evidence.

Afterwards he says he didn't realize Matt wasn't voting for Khelvaster and removes his FoS, and then a few posts later changes his mind and puts it back. I'm not sure what to make of this.

Then...

Ting, why do you think Matt is unnamed? If he were scum, he'd want to break up a potentially game winning name claim long before it showed his guilt. I believe he rejected the idea of a mass claim on the first page, mere posts after it was suggested. It may not matter to an unnamed scum because they can claim unnamed, not their role, and the claim will, luckily for Matt, die down quickly. However, a Named scum will be just as likely to claim unnamed to move attention from himself. Also, he seemed to want to reel others onto the Khel wagon before swapping with a flimsy excuse, one which I've already explained, onto the wagon himself. He wanted a majority to make sure Khel's lynch went quick. If that doesn't scream Scum, I don't know what does. He wants Khel to burn for trying to oust the Scum right away using what was, at the time, not too bad a plan. We know now that it wouldn't have worked, but neither Khel nor Matt knew this at the time, Matt just seemed to want to end it quickly.

CoolBot, following the same logic, also claimed unnamed. Its possible we've just uncovered two Scum. However, I've convinced myself that Coolbot isn't Scum, a dangerous position to have on any player, so I won't take action on him yet.

In the meantime,

Vote: Matt_S

All of a sudden Matt "screams scum"? Neither he nor anyone else has brought up anything particularly new or interesting. The way his position just suddenly keeps getting more and more angry baffles me. Also note his re-mention of his wishy-washy thing about Coolbot, pointing out again that he has already expressed suspicion of Coolbot without actually starting a bandwagon which, again, really just reeks of ass-covering to me.

Anyway, jumping ahead to his post 454 today (which is enormous so I will not quote the entire thing, only the bits I want to point out), this is what

really

made me think "hey, this guy looks like scum to me". The rest of what I've pointed out could have been excusable but this post is just ridiculous. It reads as though he went "ok, I've put too much into attacking Matt_S to be able to back down now, so I'm going to comb through and nitpick for as many little reasons as I can". Some of what he says is somewhat valid (although I do tend to think that Matt_S is town especially given the whole deleted post thing). However, a lot of his analyses are just blatant stretching and nitpicking:

Post 89: Not much here really, just speculation on my part: You feel the need to summarze your argument against Khel once again. Was this to try to get others to believe your case? Or were you havng your own doubts about it? The action seems Scummy, but not terribly so. And once again you ompletely miss Khel's point in asking for people outside of the Fellowship. You seem to do that a lot.

Some of them don't say anything at all, as though he just wanted to say as much as possible:

Post 285: You want to drop the whole name thing. I can see this from an Unnamed Vanilla, or from Scum in general, unless they do have Safeclaims.

And then some try to use logic that just doesn't follow:

Post 340: "I could have quoted my safeclaim." Now we know why you believe Scum to have safeclaims. Its because you have a Safeclaim! Which inevitably implies you are Scum.

These are just the most obvious examples; I could keep going, but I really don't feel like it.

Vote: Imat

.

PS. Also, Imat, I would appreciate it if you would clarify exactly what Matt's strawman argument in post 431 is, as you weren't really specific about it.

[Imat]

Ok Shamrock, that was pretty bad. None of that is evidence of my Scumminess, mostly because its so incorrect. From the top:

Yes, me saying CoolBot was defensive, but thats understandable and even not Scummy makes me think he's Scummy...Where does this even come from? I say hes not Scummy, so I obviously think he is? This is crazy talk.

As for the changing of my mind: Notice how I had pretty much just come int the game at that point. I hadn't finished reading yet, just wanted people to know that I was working on it. If you still findit suspiious that I didn't find the time to completely read before posting even once, I'm gonna be forced to vote you. Make sense? Didn't think so.

Then you mistake this sentence to, trying, and failing, at pointing out flaws in my arguments. I said CoolBot had large amounts of evidence. CoolBot. Not Matt. Another point down the drain.

Once again "I've convinced myself CoolBot is Town" does not mean I think he's Scum. Where you get this, I'll never know, but its another blatant misrepresentation of my words. I don't like it one bit.

How is my analysis of Post 285 not saying anything? Matt is either a Townie or Scum, and heres why. Sure, its not a big paragraph, but it says something. Again, you're saying things that aren't correct.

And my analysis of Post 340 was sarcasm. Sure, say what you will about it, but does it honestlyseem like I'd make a comment like hat in all seriusness? I thought the exclamation point would at least give some sort of clue to those who don't get sarcasm in print...

Final note: Yes, some of it was nitpicking. Notice they usually begin or end with "This doesn't mean much." The important details, the ones which I felt make him voteworthy, didn't begin or end with such a line.

The strawmanning: I dunno if its the right term, but he ignores the several points which obviously imply he's guessing at something, I believe I even came right out and said nameless Townies, then comes out and says "Why didn't you mention Nameless Townies before?" I felt like he was either completely misreading my post, which is what you've done just now, or he was trying to downplay the significance of guessing at nameless townies. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but thats what it felt like.

Truly, Shamrock, a wickedly aweful post. I can't believe any player would misread my posts so completely.

FoS: Shamrock

.

[shaka!!]

BridgesAndBaloons replaces Imat, effective immediately.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Hey! I'm here!

So I have to take some time to look at this thread, and unfortunately it should take me a while. I'll try to post my thoughts piece by piece, and I'll try to get caught up by a week from today.

unvote

. Since I haven't finished reading the thread yet, or Imat's case.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Ok did this game originally have a Lord Of the Rings theme and a LotR title?
I just came in and it's just Mini 553.

Because I was so freaking confused about the whole fellowship thing.

I just finished reading the second page btw.

[massive]

BAB:

Yes, it did have a LOTR theme. The theme got pulled, but not before a big discussion about the potential a nameclaim might have had in helping the town. The theme got pulled, but the nameclaim discussion still had a lot of merit in terms of talking points -- so it's "still around."

About Matt_S

: I will be the first person to agree that Matt_S has continuously acted scummy through both days. But no matter what he says or does, I still can't wrap my head around him being scum due to the "unnamed townie" stuff from Day One. In a themed game, with players debating the potential of a mass nameclaim, you do NOT stick your neck out and claim "unnamed townie" if you are scum. It will lead you to a sure lynch if the town goes through with the nameclaim and all have names -- it very nearly led to Matt_S's lynch even WITHOUT the nameclaim. The proper path to take (as scum) is the one CoolBot took -- hint at as much as possible without outright agreeing with anything. I just think it's too huge a gambit that has too high a potential of catastrophic fail.

Yes, it has a measure of WIFOM, but now that we KNOW there were unnamed townies in the original configuration of the game (thanks to eljcko), it unfortunately makes it MORE likely that Matt_S is unnamed townie as well.

I think it's reckless to try and lynch him now.

Shamrock

: I read post [334] and thought to myself, "Hrm, Imat is a CPR doc, interesting." I guess you don't believe this is the case. He avoided that part of your post in his response in [462]. So I guess my question to you is: Do YOU believe we have a vig? Or a CPR doc?

[Shamrock]

Shamrock

: I read post [334] and thought to myself, "Hrm, Imat is a CPR doc, interesting." I guess you don't believe this is the case. He avoided that part of your post in his response in [462]. So I guess my question to you is: Do YOU believe we have a vig? Or a CPR doc?

It's certainly not impossible that he's a CPR doc, but being as you are the one arguing about things being common in setups (:P), vigs are much much much more common a role. I haven't played an immense amount of games but I've played a decent number and I've never encountered a CPR doc before. I have a feeling Imat maybe just wasn't thinking it out properly when he made that post. (That, and I have suspicions as to who the vig is if we have one.)

In fact I wrote out a response to Imat's post but then glanced back at the thread before posting and realized he'd been replaced. I don't know how much of a point there is in carrying over suspicions, so I'm just going to keep my eye on BAB and

Unvote

for now.

[Matt_S]

In fact I wrote out a response to Imat's post but then glanced back at the thread before posting and realized he'd been replaced. I don't know how much of a point there is in carrying over suspicions, so I'm just going to keep my eye on BAB and

Unvote

for now.

Yes, it's an awkward position. I had my eyes on your predecessor as well, but you've been too reasonable for me to hold it against you too much. So I, too, will

unvote

for now, to see how things go.

Mod:

What about Qman? Has he been prodded?

[massive]

Shamrock

: While I do believe that uncommon things shouldn't be inserted into games, I also trust in common tells, and the Mafia version of "he who smelt it, dealt it" always seems to hold up more often than not. Which is why I started in on destructor about safeclaims in the first place.

[Shamrock]

You have a point. I don't think it's entirely implausible that scum had safe claims, though. They're not the most common of things but they do turn up often enough that you have to take them into consideration when you're talking about doing any kind of claiming in a theme (or formerly theme) game. I know I gave them out in one game I modded because I was afraid I'd used up all the big-name roles as townies and the scum wouldn't have anyone to claim, and it's not entirely imopssible that that's what the mod of this game figured.

[massive]

In that case, why would he make unnamed townies?

[Matt_S]

Mod: Prod Qman (again?)

. Considering he said he was waiting for Mert's replacement yet still hasn't appeared, I'll

Vote Qman

as well, to give some incentive for him to do something.

[shaka!!]

Prodding Qman

Also, another fuck up to add to my list, the two replacements came to me at the same time, and all though they replaced different people I accidentally swapped their roles. So when examining BAB take Mert, Petunho and GSGold into consideration, and for Shamrock, take Imat and Zycronium into consideration.

I'd like to apologize for the growing complications this game is receiving, and would like to thank you all for baring with me!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

You have GOT to be kidding me. I have been looking at this game and so far, and I have considered Mert/petunho/GSGold to be scummy!

mod: please make the adjustments on the front page

.

Done

Ok the reason I'm posting this is because I wanted to give you (the players) a status update. I have finished the fourth page. I've been looking at it very carefully, and I definitely need to increase my pace. Anyway, I was wondering whether I should put my thoughts so far (I don't want to do this, but I can if you guys want me to) or should I wait till I'm finished.

I want to wait until I'm finished so I will have time to defend my accusations and stuff. If I post them separately, I will be stuck responding to the first part of my post and never get time to finish it. Oh I guess I decided for you. I'm going to post all my stuff at once.

Note: this is how my summary will work also. I'm writing it as I go, which means I contradict myself often. If I contradict myself in my summary, it's because I changed my mind, and the later thing I mention is going to be what I believe.