mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[iamausername]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

And did you not think that by that stage of the game (Post 94, most of the way through page 4, btw), there were more useful things you could be doing, like, say, actually scumhunting?

[Matt_S]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

Random voting is one of the only ways to get the game started. Baselessly accusing someone of being scum, seriously or not, is neither required nor desired. What kind of discussion did you think would start?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Evilgorrilaz (2) -- populartajo, CoheedCambria09
Alvinz95 (3) -- Mellowed Man, Gaspode, Cream147
Mellowed Man (1) -- iamausername
CoheedCambria09 (2) -- Marmalade, Elias_the_thief
Cream147 (1) -- Alvinz95

Not voting: Matt_S, Skruffs, Evilgorrilaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[populartajo]

The lying part was simply an alternative to logic. The only thing related to you is the WIFOM. While using WIFOM can help get a feel for why a person's acting some way, it can also be wrong, and using it only when you think it's right simply leads to confirmation bias. If you think it's useful, there's probably other evidence against him that made you think that

Like what evidence? Debating about WIFOM is like WIFOM itself, we can go like forever.

No, it doesn't bother me because I think I tend to play safely. I've seen townies attack viciously before, so I see no reason to think there's anything necessarily wrong with how Cream acted.

Well it bothers me since Im really disliking his logic. Could you tell me where else did he act viciously against anyone else? Also, would someone attacking viciously would post something like

Sorry I haven't posted as much as I like people! I'm not intentionally lurking, though it's quite clear that I am lurking. I haven't got into the feel of this game yet. However, I have just gave it a quick reread and that has got me back into the swing of things. I am not liking alvinz at the moment for several reasons.

As I've mentioned, I'm withdrawing out of my argument with alvinz. I agree with the general consensus that there really is no point now.

I alsol play safely and even you think he took the attack far too much. But why? Theres something, strange, dont you think?

Unvote

.

Vote : Cream147

It usually takes big things to make big flips. I didn't see anything big before you changed your mind, which makes me think your suspicions weren't well based.

First of all I never hardly suspected Alvinz, I simply said that I didnt like his first posts, like they felt something wasnt right, but as the game progressed he seemed to be more protown, (the agressive style from his previous game), specially when he answered to Cream accusations. So I still dont see the big flip you're talking about.

Well, your suspicions of Mellowed Man look to be because he has suspicions of alvinz95 that you don't have, and your suspicions of Cream147 seem to be because you dislike his logic. Overall, it still looks to me like you're linking them together for having different suspicions that you do.

To me, weak logic + strange attacks = scummy in my book.

And I've done a reread of CoheedCambria09. My opinion is largely unchanged, but I'd like more contributions from him. He seems to either go on gut or follow other people's logic most of the time. I don't think he's a good play for today.

Finally we agree at something.
Also I would like to know why is Gaspode voting for Alvin and if the no voters would vote for someone, who would it be.

[Cream147]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.

Random voting is one of the only ways to get the game started. Baselessly accusing someone of being scum, seriously or not, is neither required nor desired. What kind of discussion did you think would start?

Well, if he wanted a discussion about how he's scummy, then I can see what angle he was coming from...JESTER! (joke)

[Gaspode]

At whoever said Jeep's tells and LynchAllLyars are stupid:

What specifically has changed so drastically about the game since Jeep wrote the article? To me, the style of play seems similar, except that people tend to talk a whole lot more than they used to (most mini games tended to be done around now, pagewise).

As for LynchAllLiars, I agree that lynching to enforce a meta isn't the most practical method, but I think the principles behind why you shouldn't lie are legit, and worth a read.

Also I would like to know why is Gaspode voting for Alvin and if the no voters would vote for someone, who would it be.

Well, he hasn't done anything to really refute my original reasons, and the whole spreading crap logic "for the sake of discussion" thing is probably the scummiest thing I've seen the whole game.

[Miztef]

Hey everyone. I want to thank MeMe and Patrick so much for helping out. I've got my computer trouble sorted out now.

[Evilgorrilaz]

weak logic + strange attacks = scummy in my book.

Weak logic =/= scum.

if the no voters would vote for someone, who would it be.

I would vote for alvinz, but not sold on his case yet. I wholeheartedly disagree with his excuses, but not enough that I think he deserves another vote. Cream wouldn't be that bad of a vote either.

[Matt_S]

First of all I never hardly suspected Alvinz, I simply said that I didnt like his first posts, like they felt something wasnt right, but as the game progressed he seemed to be more protown, (the agressive style from his previous game), specially when he answered to Cream accusations. So I still dont see the big flip you're talking about.

True. I guess the fact that you pointed out your change of opinion made me look at you too hard.

Well it bothers me since Im really disliking his logic. Could you tell me where else did he act viciously against anyone else? Also, would someone attacking viciously would post something like

Sorry I haven't posted as much as I like people! I'm not intentionally lurking, though it's quite clear that I am lurking. I haven't got into the feel of this game yet. However, I have just gave it a quick reread and that has got me back into the swing of things. I am not liking alvinz at the moment for several reasons.

As I've mentioned, I'm withdrawing out of my argument with alvinz. I agree with the general consensus that there really is no point now.

I alsol play safely and even you think he took the attack far too much. But why? Theres something, strange, dont you think?

You make a good point. Cream147 does seem to be focusing his aggressive attacks solely on alvinz95. Being aggressive to only one person does seem odd.

if the no voters would vote for someone, who would it be

Probably Mellowed Man. But my list is still moving around quite a bit.

What specifically has changed so drastically about the game since Jeep wrote the article? To me, the style of play seems similar, except that people tend to talk a whole lot more than they used to (most mini games tended to be done around now, pagewise).

As for LynchAllLiars, I agree that lynching to enforce a meta isn't the most practical method, but I think the principles behind why you shouldn't lie are legit, and worth a read.

While I haven't dissed the scumtells, I'm not convinced that they are still as useful as they were. I don't like making decisions by looking at a list. Some of the tells seem kind of outlandish, like 3rd or 4th on a bandwagon are more likely to be scum. I agree with you on lynch all liars.

[Gaspode]

I agree about the 3rd on a bandwagon thing: that was WIFOM'ed to a relatively permanent death sometime around 2002. Similarly, the other tells probably have lost some of their potency, but I think there are some pretty good principles behind them, and new players are still likely to make some of those mistakes.

[Cream147]

My reason for being aggressive on only one person is simple. If I saw other people just as scummy as alvinz, I would have done it to them then, however now, as that only results in making ME look scummy, I don't think it's an effective way to play anymore.

[Matt_S]

My reason for being aggressive on only one person is simple. If I saw other people just as scummy as alvinz, I would have done it to them then, however now, as that only results in making ME look scummy, I don't think it's an effective way to play anymore.

I used to think that it was scummy to back down from a position people disliked, but it sounds too much like being defensive. However, I've still got my eye on you.

What do you think about Mellowed Man?

[Mellowed Man]

Vote: Matt_S

Young man, you need to explain your actions.

[iamausername]

Vote: Matt_S

Young man, you need to explain your actions.

[Marmalade]

CoheedCambria09

Well, he's new. I don't have much experience with newb scum tells, but he seems to have played fairly decently for someone new. Withholding judgment for now.

Really? All he has really discussed is his gut reads on evilgorrillaz, which are pretty scummy, I think.

Cream147

Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical. Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

Note: This could be interesting.

alvinz95

I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

Can you back-up "he has been unimpressive"?

I agree with alvinz -- Cream's arguments have been unimpresive at best, and Matt's blatant siding with cream strikes me as significant. I'd also like to point out that Elias put cream at neutral, yet noted he was scummy.

I agree with the Cream hate, and still think Cambria is scum.

I also dislike the establishment of Jeep's scum tells and lynch all liars from Gaspode. Pray tell -- what exactly were you trying to achieve by bringing them up?

Elias, why is your read on Cream neutral?

I dislike MM's recent post as well.

Cambria -- can you explain why you are still voting for evilgorrilaz?

[Elias_the_thief]

I thought I explained it pretty well when I analized every player...

[CoheedCambria09]

there really is no reason anymore, therfore

unvote

[Cream147]

What do you think about Mellowed Man?

Is this directed towards me? If it is, then I find him quite scummy. I don't like his votehopping. I also don't like his most recent vote on you just after you asked that question. I also find him 'forgetting' his complaint about post 100 by iamausername quite strange.

[Matt_S]

Can you back-up "he has been unimpressive"?

I don't like the way he joined the gorillaz wagon. I don't like the way he mentioned Elias. I don't like his accusation of populartajo and the way he connects you to populartajo.

What do you think about Mellowed Man?

Is this directed towards me? If it is, then I find him quite scummy. I don't like his votehopping. I also don't like his most recent vote on you just after you asked that question. I also find him 'forgetting' his complaint about post 100 by iamausername quite strange.

I'm primarily interested in your opinion. Why did you find alvinz more scummy than Mellowed Man, and do you still find alvinz scummier?

[Cream147]

I did find and still do find alvinz more scummy than Mellowed Man because I feel that the case against alvinz is stronger than the case against Mellowed Man (and I've summed up my case on both of those players in previous posts). That being said, after a reread of Mellowed Man, I do think he's a good vote.

I have a concern about you Matt. My concern is that you are trying to forge some link between you and I. Maybe you are trying to make me look like your scumbuddy? First you defend me, then you question me and ask me lots of questions. This is all common scum behaviour towards their scumbuddy. Don't think I don't notice.

[Matt_S]

I have a concern about you Matt. My concern is that you are trying to forge some link between you and I. Maybe you are trying to make me look like your scumbuddy? First you defend me, then you question me and ask me lots of questions. This is all common scum behaviour towards their scumbuddy. Don't think I don't notice.

K, whatever. I looked at your attack on alvinz in a new way.

[Gaspode]

I will be away with extremely limited access from later today until Friday, May 9th. Sorry for the short notice, things have been busy lately, and I forgot to post this earlier.

Anyway, I'm kind of in a rush, but I'll respond quickly to Marmalade:

I brought up Jeep's tells and LynchAllLiars to explain various suspicions I had. The easiest way to explain them was to refer to an article that I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, was still widely read and discussed. I still stand by my position that they are worth reading, because they help you think more analytically about the game, even if the specific tells aren't exactly accurate anymore. Plus, when I refer to them, you'll know what I'm talking about.

That said, I agree with what you seem to be (at least partially) implying: it's becoming yet another futile, distracting argument. The main point is, my vote for alvinz still stands, for the many reasons I have outlined previously.

If you thought I was trying to "achieve" something else, "pray tell" what it was you had in mind--I can't see any kind of ulterior motive to discussing game-relevant scumtell theory other than perhaps as a distraction, and I don't think it was distracting or irrelevant enough to be an issue.

Also, I just noticed a bit of the latest conversation going on. I don't have time to really analyze the players involved, but Cream is sounding a bit weird at the moment. I'll try to look at his posts more when I get back and give a more concrete explanation for this.

[Cream147]

I have a concern about you Matt. My concern is that you are trying to forge some link between you and I. Maybe you are trying to make me look like your scumbuddy? First you defend me, then you question me and ask me lots of questions. This is all common scum behaviour towards their scumbuddy. Don't think I don't notice.

K, whatever. I looked at your attack on alvinz in a new way.

I wasn't accusing you. I was just making sure you know, that if you are intentionally doing what you're doing, I've noticed.

[Skruffs]

Very defensive, publicly-intentional-distancing post there, cream. First time as scum?

[Cream147]

Very defensive, publicly-intentional-distancing post there, cream. First time as scum?

Or maybe town who doesn't wish mafia to try any sneaky tricks? I'm just starting to get concerned that Matt is trying to drag people into thinking we're a team with his posts. Being as many people think I'm scummy already, I'm a good target also.