Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Andycyca]

Ok, looking at a Y-only thread, I found him referencing a game with Capri (this one) which stroke me as odd, since he's against meta'ing.

Andycaca:
Are you insinuating that voting without reason is better than reason without voting?

I didn't mean that. I don't vote anyone without a cause, except for the random/arbitrary vote stage. If someone really believes someone's scum and finds enough "evidence" against him, voting is the protown thing to do. I've attacked people for voting without apparent reason, because that contributes to a lynch without contributing to the discussion (anti-town) but apart from some few cases in this game, I haven't seen non-reasoned votes.

[eldarad]

/post

/is here, is waiting to hear from eldred

yeah, yeah.
I haven't even looked at this game tonight. I'll finish off writing my post tomorrow, work permitting.

[hasdgfas]

eldarad, I really hate when people do the "I'll post real content tomorrow." I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of that, but people have wanted you to respond for a few days now. Why couldn't you just split this up into multiple parts so you could get at least a few things out?

[Y]

Ok, looking at a Y-only thread, I found him referencing a game with Capri (this one) which stroke me as odd, since he's against meta'ing.

And I already said it was a joke and I didn't use the info of that game as part of my attack.
I never said I'm completely against meta, but that building most of your case based on it isn't good.

Good try though...

[eldarad]

eldarad, I really hate when people do the "I'll post real content tomorrow." I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of that, but people have wanted you to respond for a few days now. Why couldn't you just split this up into multiple parts so you could get at least a few things out?

I'm only posting at all so that we don't miss a deadline.
I'm going to try to finish my post tonight, but if I don't guarantee anything. All my games are suffering at the moment (and I'm only playing in 3), but that is a reflection on how my leisure time in general is suffering.

If you really think I'm avoiding posting in the thread for ulterior motives, then you should vote for me. If you don't think that, then give me a break, yeah?

[Ether]

2 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Rotten Snitch)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Skruffs)
1 Yosarian2 (eldarad)

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

3/5 - hasdgfas, Y, eldarad

3 hours and 52 minutes until the block ends.

[Andycyca]

I only stated it as a minor contradiction, not as proof of your guilt

[Skruffs]

POST

[Skruffs]

Andy:
But you implied that him voting me since day one meant something- right? You didn't say anything about his reasoning, just that he was voting me for a long time which you took to mean was pro-town. That's basically the opposite of what you just said, up above, unless I am misunderstanding.

Zindaras: Very witty. Less wit, more content, plz.

[Rotten Snitch]

Andy I was hoping for something more. I still keep to my vote for no contribution and lack of content.

As bad as some may say I am playing I am still posting more and trying more than Andy and I feel as though it is weird that I have been accused of lurking and posting only when attacked when Andy has not posted anything significant since the middle of day one. Why has this been overlooked?

This contradiction post he had of Y was a complete disappointment.

[Mizzy]

It looks like content in general has slowed down...I currently don't have anything to add, but if anyone has any questions for me (I don't think I missed any, but let me know if I did) I'd be glad to answer.

[Yosarian2]

I do agree that we need to hear more from Andy, he's been pretty lurkerific.

SPecifially, way back on April 11'th, he promised this:

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so

vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

But never mentioned Eldarad again. Andy, did you ever do that Eldarad-only reread? If so, what do you think about him currently?

[eldarad]

Uh, I explained what I was doing there about a dozen times. And no, I wasn't "just trying to get Capi to offer a defense"; we NEEDED him to offer a defense, because I was NOT going to explain HIS actions for him before he explained them for himself. And if you actually look, I spent a LONG time trying to get some kind of reaction out of him before finally voting him.

You're creating a distinction that doesn't exist.
I don't dispute that you spent time trying to get Capri to respond. I just don't buy the idea that you were doing it to help the town.

That was scummy for several reasons:

Interesting how this is the first time you have explained (in more than one sentence) why you voted for me...

So when I said your post was scummy, when I voted for you, it had nothing to do with any kind of "well, either eldred or Mizzy is scum". It was because you looked hella scummy, combined with me thinking that if there was scum on the Capi wagon, that you came off looking worse then anyone else on the wagon. I would have been glad to explain it to you then, but interestingly, you never asked why I suspected you back then, you just seemed to accept my comment that your post was scummy.

If you are going to vote for me without saying why, that isn't really my problem, and in the absence of a wagon gathering pace on me, I really couldn't care less about your vote. My approach was that if you had wanted to explain your vote, you would have done so. Instead, you're turning it onto me and suggesting that I was at fault for not pressing you.

1. It seemed like in every single part of your post, you delibratly warp and twist what Mizzy is trying to say. Like, she said "He wasn't playing like I would expect a scum to play like", which is a perfectly reasonable argument, and you respond with"So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum?" which isn't anything like what she said. And you keep doing that, over and over again in that post; the whole post just gives off a bad vibe because of the amount of misrepresentng you crammed into it. She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch".

I didn't warp or twist anything. Some things I may have taken a step further than what Mizzy said, in order to show how ridiculous the logic was. For example:

She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch"

She said that the town had settled for a mislynch in favour of a no-lynch. By implication, the wagon on Capri was formed by townies "settling for a mislynch" in order to avoid a no-lynch.
If you recall, another of the points I made against Mizzy - and one you don't seem to have a problem with - is that her deliberately vague blanket statements were allowing her to attack the Capri without antagonising specific people.
If you think that making vague blanket statements so as to avoid antagonising people isn't scummy, by all means say so.

2. You seem to be making excuses for your own actions, in a scummy kind of way that feels off to me.

Where did I make excuses? No-one has attacked me for my position on the Capri wagon and - if anything - I've been trying to get Mizzy to be specific about her attacks. I have no problem being pressured for my role in the Capri wagon. Although, interestingly, despite Mizzy's criticism of the Capri wagon, her suspicion of me is apparently unrelated to Day 1. Which just seems odd.

3. You seem to be attacking her, because she didn't like a bandwagon on day 1 that turned out to be a bad bandwagon, and because she said so again on day 2. This whole thing feels like a pre-emptive strike on your part, like you were trying to undermine her in order to protect yourself from her attacking you, which again is scummy.

I've already explained my position on this (the whole 'pedestal' thing). I won't repeat myself given the time constraints I'm under.

4. And while it's a minor point, something about the phrase "bemoaning the loss of a poor, innocent villager" just sets off alarm bells in my head; it just feels like something a defensive scum would say in that situation

In what way?

So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

Why, because I'm attacking your scumbuddy?

erm, no.

Care to humor us and actually respond to my case, and explain what you don't like about it?

Why would I defend against a case that isn't about me? I'm just noting that the case is unconvincing because I think it's worth putting my opinion on record. I have no intention of answering it in detail.

~~~

Or, perhaps it was an attempt to focus discussion, not limit it. You, yourself have tried some focusing techniques, such as calling out for a consensus wagon, and so this feels very pot-kettle to me. And yes, of course I was attacking him, his meta posting was bull in my eyes and causing a huge distraction to the town. It's one thing when someone wants to talk about something different, but quite another when the motives are not pro-town. I didn't feel his topic-changing was pro-town.

Calling for a consensus is not comparable to FoS'ing someone for discussing players who aren't on your list of approved discussion topics for the Day. Suggesting that Skruff's change of topic was anti-town because he wanted to talk about someone you didn't want to talk about is BS.

<sarcasm>Because, you know, people can't change their minds about a player, and when they do, it's because they are scum, not because they had second thoughts or new content is introduced that changes things. </sarcasm>

I only mentioned it because it was in the post I was reading anyway. Nevertheless, it is surprising that as we approached deadline you were critical of Capri, but ended up being strongly opposed to his lynch as a lynch began looking more and more likely.

This statement confuses me and I don't quite understand why you're saying it. You also seem to be questioning the existence of something that actually happened, i.e. Yosarian2 trying to get Capri to offer a defense. He was very outspoken in his attempts to get Capri to offer a defense, so please don't try and pretend it didn't happen.

I know it happened. I am questioning the motives for it and, indeed, why it only started when it became apparent that Capri defence was never going to be forthcoming or adequate.

This paragraph of yours speaks very loudly to me, and now I'm pretty sure you're anti-town at least and scum at most. It feels like you don't care who dies as long as it's not you. Doesn't matter if they're a townie or not.

How? I think I'm missing a step in your thought process here.

I still haven't seen evidence presented that I was ever on a pedestal, but whatever.

There has been plenty, and you have consistently ignored or dismissed it. So whatever.

~~~

But never mentioned Eldarad again. Andy, did you ever do that Eldarad-only reread? If so, what do you think about him currently?

I agree with this sentiment, by the way. I also have sympathy with RS's slight moan that he's being held to a higher standard than Andycyca.

[Yosarian2]

You're creating a distinction that doesn't exist.
I don't dispute that you spent time trying to get Capri to respond. I just don't buy the idea that you were doing it to help the town.

Uh, why not?

He needed to attempt to explain his own actions BEFORE I tried to explain them for him. Once he defended himself, then the real discussion about his alighnment could have started.

And again, it wasn't just about getting him to defend himself, although that was a key, necessary step. As it stood at that moment (partly because of your vote, btw), we were either going to lynch Capi, no-lynch, or have a rapid change in momentum, probably due to a Capi claim or a Capi defense. And out of those three, the one that I didn't want to happen was a no-lynch.

Interesting how this is the first time you have explained (in more than one sentence) why you voted for me...

Well, I broke it down more here, but I did explain when I voted for you that I felt like your post was a massive over-reaction to Mizzy's fairly reasonable comments.

If you are going to vote for me without saying why, that isn't really my problem, and in the absence of a wagon gathering pace on me, I really couldn't care less about your vote. My approach was that if you had wanted to explain your vote, you would have done so. Instead, you're turning it onto me and suggesting that I was at fault for not pressing you.

If I'm voting you, then by definition, it kind of is your problem.

And I actually do think that just ignoring someone's attack and vote on you, and not trying to ask them for reasons or to defend yourself, is actually a minor scumtell on it's own; pro-town people should always defend themselves. It's a fairly minor point, though, might just be a playstyle thing.

And it's especally odd for you to never even try to find out why I'm voting for you or to disagree with my reasons for voting you, and then suddenly much later, long after the vote is gone, for you to decide that me voting for you was some kind of scum tell on my part and to invent, apparently out of thin air, some wierd justification you think I might have had for my vote.

1. It seemed like in every single part of your post, you delibratly warp and twist what Mizzy is trying to say. Like, she said "He wasn't playing like I would expect a scum to play like", which is a perfectly reasonable argument, and you respond with"So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum?" which isn't anything like what she said. And you keep doing that, over and over again in that post; the whole post just gives off a bad vibe because of the amount of misrepresentng you crammed into it. She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch".

I didn't warp or twist anything. Some things I may have taken a step further than what Mizzy said, in order to show how ridiculous the logic was. For example:

She never said that "everyone on the capi wagon was heading out for a mislynch"

She said that the town had settled for a mislynch in favour of a no-lynch. By implication, the wagon on Capri was formed by townies "settling for a mislynch" in order to avoid a no-lynch.

Well, she certanly didn't say that "everyone" on the wagon did that, though, and as some people on the wagon did basically say they were doing that it's really not an absurd comment for her to make.

And the first one I pointed out was actually far more serious; she makes a perfectly reasonable point here, one she also made before Capi was lynched in fact, and your response is to not only attack her but to totally misrepresent her argument in the process. Kind of feels more like a scum debating trick instead of a pro-town person tryng to find out the truth.

If you recall, another of the points I made against Mizzy - and one you don't seem to have a problem with - is that her deliberately vague blanket statements were allowing her to attack the Capri without antagonising specific people.
If you think that making vague blanket statements so as to avoid antagonising people isn't scummy, by all means say so.

I don't at all think her comments there are scummy, no. If a pro-town person argues against a wagon day 1, the wagon happens anyway, and it turns out they were right about it being a bad wagon, I certanly wouldn't be surprised for them to say the next day "Boy that was a dumb wagon, let's not do that again", even if they don't necessarally want to attack any individual people on the wagon. I just don't see how her comments were anything that a scum would be more likely to say then a pro-town person, no.

Now, I would feel a bit better about her if she started committing to votes and started attacking someone she thought might be scum, but after playing with her a few times I think her hesitancy to vote might be related to her playstyle; still, Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

That being said, I still feel like your attack on her here was pretty much an extreme over-reaction to some fundimentally harmless comments on her part, and it was an extreme over-reaction that was backed up by mis-representations and crap logic. And in my next reason, I explain why you, as scum, might be prone to over-react here...

2. You seem to be making excuses for your own actions, in a scummy kind of way that feels off to me.

Where did I make excuses? No-one has attacked me for my position on the Capri wagon and - if anything - I've been trying to get Mizzy to be specific about her attacks.

That's the point; it seems like Mizzy made some vauge and harmless comments, and it looks to me like dramatically over-reacted to them. Which makes me really wonder if you're a scum who knows you did something scummy on the Capi wagon, and so you totally over-reacted to any slight hint that there might have been something wrong with the Capi wagon. Your right that her comments wasn't directed specifically at you, but that's actually why I think you're kind of jumpy on the issue.

I've already explained my position on this (the whole 'pedestal' thing). I won't repeat myself given the time constraints I'm under.

Ok, but I'm not really sure how that's supposed to be a scumtell on her part.

4. And while it's a minor point, something about the phrase "bemoaning the loss of a poor, innocent villager" just sets off alarm bells in my head; it just feels like something a defensive scum would say in that situation

In what way?

Eh. Hard to explain. I guess something about the tone there gives me a weird vibe, like you're shocked that anyone would be unhappy about lynching a townie, or perhaps that you're not at all unhappy yourself that a townie got lynched, or something like that. It is a minor point, more of a psycological/gut thing then a logical argument, but I figured I might as well mention it.

So I'm going to start a shiny new bandwagon

vote Yosarian

Why, because I'm attacking your scumbuddy?

erm, no.[/quote]

Oh, ok. Who's your scumbuddy then?

Care to humor us and actually respond to my case, and explain what you don't like about it?

Why would I defend against a case that isn't about me? I'm just noting that the case is unconvincing because I think it's worth putting my opinion on record. I have no intention of answering it in detail.

Why is that? Especally since you seemed to want me to go into detail about your "case" involving Mizzy. You're the one defending RS here, and I'd be very interested to hear why.

I know it happened. I am questioning the motives for it and, indeed, why it only started when it became apparent that Capri defence was never going to be forthcoming or adequate.

Uh...usually when I pressure someone like that, I am sucessfull in getting them to react in SOME kind of way and in drawing them out into a fight where I can better asses their thought process. I hardly think it was ever "apparent" that Capi was never going to defend himself; in fact, I was constantly expecting that he would defend himself or react or lash out or claim or break down or do SOMETHING that's be useful in figuring him out, if I could just ramp up the pressure for him to do so to a high enough level and keep it there for long enough, and I still don't understand why he didn't.

[Andycyca]

@yos: I'm doing it right now

[Y]

I'm really worried about the fact that no one had anything to say about me and Skruffs. No one has anything to say about it? No one cares? How can we progress if no one cares about other people's attacks?

[Mizzy]

Calling for a consensus is not comparable to FoS'ing someone for discussing players who aren't on your list of approved discussion topics for the Day. Suggesting that Skruff's change of topic was anti-town because he wanted to talk about someone you didn't want to talk about is BS.

Are you deliberately ignoring the OTHER reasons for the FoS? Because I gave a whole list of them and his distraction technique was only one of them.

I only mentioned it because it was in the post I was reading anyway. Nevertheless, it is surprising that as we approached deadline you were critical of Capri, but ended up being strongly opposed to his lynch as a lynch began looking more and more likely.

I was trying to get him to stop being a goober. You can be critical of someone and still find them pro-town and not want them dead, you know.

How? I think I'm missing a step in your thought process here.

It just felt very emotionally un-invested who who dies as long as it's not you.

There has been plenty, and you have consistently ignored or dismissed it. So whatever.

No no, I mean evidence where you haven't misrepresented what I said.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

It's not going to be easy for me to remedy this going forward because due to obvious reasons my time is extremely limited. It's not easy to re-read things when you're constantly sleeping or responding to a crying wee one. Things will get easier as time passes, and I will slowly be able to do more, and if my participation level bothers anyone, let me know, and I can seek replacement, but right now, this is as much as I can do.

[Skruffs]

I will contribute after I get back from job huntin'! Wish me lucxor!

[Zindaras]

Okay, so I've told Ether to ferociously poke me tomorrow until I post here.

Y: About you and Skruffs: it seems to me to just be an extension of the way he's been playing so far this game. I don't think there's special significance here.

[Yosarian2]

Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

It's not going to be easy for me to remedy this going forward because due to obvious reasons my time is extremely limited. It's not easy to re-read things when you're constantly sleeping or responding to a crying wee one. Things will get easier as time passes, and I will slowly be able to do more, and if my participation level bothers anyone, let me know, and I can seek replacement, but right now, this is as much as I can do.

Of course, Mizzy. By the way, cograts.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with the amount you're participating, you're actually being pretty active by most standards nor do I expect you to do extensive read-throughs or anything. I'm just saying an occasional "that post seemed scummy, vote:X" would help me get a better read on you.

[Mizzy]

Of course, Mizzy. By the way, cograts.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with the amount you're participating, you're actually being pretty active by most standards nor do I expect you to do extensive read-throughs or anything. I'm just saying an occasional "that post seemed scummy, vote:X" would help me get a better read on you.

Thank you ^^

If it helps a bit, I am planning on voting for RS because I find him to be pretty all-over-the-place and wishy washy after a re-read and I was giving him the chance to answer what I had said. I don't find his answers to be particularly helpful to his cause, either.

My suspicion of RS is compounded by the fact that RS is being defended by eldarad, who I also suspect. I could easily see a noob RS-scum doing a terrible job at looking pro-town and a frustrated eldarad-scum trying to save his ass from the fire, as it were.

I am extremely cautious, and I am sorry about that. I do intend to vote or not as soon as RS answers this question:

RS:

Why is eldarad sticking his neck out for you? It feels like when I attack you, eldarad attacks me just as hard, and he seems like he's tried to protect you elsewhere. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Y]

I noticed that too. Eldarad seems to have a weird way of putting things, and his interaction with RS is not to my liking.
There's also one thing I noticed about RS: Yos told him that he might leave him alone if he would show some one else is a better lynch. While at first RS said it was just a plan for Yos to get some other lynch candidate, he (RS) started poking other people. It feels to me like he's trying to get Yos off his back, pretending to do what Yos asked him to, but actually just trying to get some one else noticed instead of himself.

Y: About you and Skruffs: it seems to me to just be an extension of the way he's been playing so far this game. I don't think there's special significance here.

I seem to miss the meaning of this. Is he scummy, or is he not?

[Zindaras]

My apologies for the failure, here.

Y: Skruffs is out there. He's departed the human spheres and gone into the spheres of "stirring up shit". I'm torn between finding his posts exasperating and outright scummy.

[Ether]

2 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Rotten Snitch)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Skruffs)
1 Yosarian2 (eldarad)

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

3/5 - Mizzy, Y, Zindaras

The block ended.

Mizzy says, "Patrick--remember that discussion we had earlier? Gabriel should be on that votecount. It might not

look

like he's voting anyone, but trust me, if you could just read the signs like I can, he's voting all of the scum. At the same time. You're gonna need to register that for us."

At the same time, Zindaras says, "Patrick--I'm quite sure you were going easy on me with that last prod. My failure to post is all your fault."

And Skruffs says, "Patrick--Mizzy and Zindaras are voting each other."

Then all three look at the slide projector, and look at the space where Patrick was previously standing. The votecount is accurate, aside from the lack of Gabriel. But Patrick isn't there.

A frigid evening wind whistles past you; an owl screeches at the moon. Your marker is on the pavement. Its cap is a few feet away. Still no Patrick--what's that liquid near the slide projector? It's too dark to make out the color. There's a low growling noise.

You get out of there. Really, really fast.

No one has been lynched. It is now Night 3. Please send choices by 11:00 pm Eastern on Monday, May 5.