Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[hasdgfas]

Deadline post.

Tired.

same here. getting through the essay posts takes a lot of energy.

[Y]

I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

You really think that's the most likely possibility here, Y?

Nope. I'm not sure about the situation, therefore I don't want to ignore that possibility, which I believe no one pointed until now.
You could also be two scum distancing, but it seems to me that if you were, you probably crossed the line attacking each other.

One of the things you seem to go after, Y, is to attack players for not contributing enough. You point it out exclusively, but again, I do not see you providing analysis of your own that is not based off of other people's analysis. IE you discuss other people's opinions, but you do not bring opinions of your own.

I've been saying that I see you misrepresenting other people's words (Including mine) to make up cases that do not exist and that you push things too far to get them to look as if there's a case were there isn't. That's my opinion of the situation. How can I find scum if I don't analyze based on other people's actions? I know I'm town, analyzing myself won't help anybody.

Yesterday, you were voting me, but then switched to Capricious to ensure a lynch. Today, you are voting me, and I am guessing I will eventually be the lynch.

Right now there's one vote on you. Mine. And there are four other people like you (Including myself). If you'll get lynched, it's probably because you're pushing it that way.

So after you've have lynched me, who are you going to go after next? Give two situations, one where I am town, and one where I am scum. You seem to be hedging your bets, keeping your 'I think this person is scum" limited to one person at a time throughout the entire game.

If you're scum, which I believe is the case, I'll probably be looking at RS. I'm not sure about him and Yos, but I don't like the way you two wanted us to not connect you from the beginning. When you show up scum, not looking at him because of you would be exactly what you two were trying to achive most of the game.
I'd also check Mizzy. While Zindaras did attack you back and accused you as scum, Mizzy made some counter-attacks, but not as much as I'd expect from some one who's your main suspect. Right she's mostly ignoring you. I also don't really like the way she was pushing the Capri lynch, left it at the end of D1 and then accused everybody for lynching him D2.
If you come up town, as unlikely as it is, I really don't know. I really believe whoever attacked you had a good reason to do so.

Earlier in the game you used my metaing of him based on games we played in as a reason to vote me. So which is it? Iz Zindaras not to be held accountable and I should be voted because we didn't play in games, or am I irreseponsible for using games we played in as a reason to meta Zindaras?

Or is it number three: I think the games you played are not enough for the two of you really knowing each other, therefore I accuse for using them as the basis of your attack. It all fits, it you don't ignore viable possibilities that don't add up with your goals.

You seem to pushing attention as far away from Zindaras as possible.

Wrong. I was at the top of his scum list until you decided to make some mistakes.

You are playing defensively - but ironically you are accusing me of trying to play under the radar, because I am bringing so much attention to myself.

Defensively? I'm the one attacking you.
You're taking two things I said in two different phases of the game and joining them as if I said them at the same time. You started with it one I disproved your other accusations. How far will you go?

I am pretty sure you are scum. I am voting you. Let it be known, after I am lynched, that my cold dead finger will be pointing accusationally towards Y. I have no doubt that since I am me, and I have a reputation of being senseless and ridiculous, that I am actually *helping* Y-scum by being suspicious of him; all of my thoughts are almost always discarded as soon as I'm sheathed in a body bag, but, it's something I can gloat over, privately, regardless.

You being a bad player is your fault. Not mine. I used to be like that, but I realised that the important thing isn't being right, but to kill scum. If you think you're helping scum by accusing them, why are you doing that? Zindaras was suspecting me, and he would've done a much better job attacking me if you didn't interfere. If you know your main suspect will live because of you, why don't you do a favor to the town and remain quiet?

[Patrick]

1 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Skruffs)
1 Andycyca (Rotten Snitch)

5 Unvote (Andycyca, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Zindaras, eldarad)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

This block was secured a while back.

[Mizzy]

I'm not ignoring anyone, actually. No one has asked me anything and I see nothing to respond to.

FoS: Y

for making shit up.

[Rotten Snitch]

/post

[Skruffs]

You being a bad player is your fault. Not mine. I used to be like that, but I realised that the important thing isn't being right, but to kill scum. If you think you're helping scum by accusing them, why are you doing that? Zindaras was suspecting me, and he would've done a much better job attacking me if you didn't interfere. If you know your main suspect will live because of you, why don't you do a favor to the town and remain quiet?

Me being a bad player is YOUR OPINION. Not mine.
If you used to be like 'this', then why are you attacking me for it rather than providing information as to how you got better and became the 'star player' you are today? IT sounds to me that you feel I am an easy target. You don't have to provide why I am scum, you just can say that I don't make sense and thus are trying to get mislynches. If I am lynched and show as town, you still won't be interested in the lines of suspicion of ANY of the players I suggested - instead you will be going after Rotten Snitch, regardless of my alignment.

Lastly: How would Zindaras have done a much better job of attacking you? Even if he had, why is that a good thing, since you are "town"? I don't understand this. IF he's attacking a town player, than does that make him scum? Wouldn't that mena he's pushing a mislynch? Where are you going with that line of thought?

Telling me to shut up and sit down, I'm sorry, that's both incredibly conceited and elitist. I'm a player in the game, too, and I (unlike some players) come up with my own lines of thought and I See where they go. You are a culture, you pick at the weak spots of 'injured players' and feast on their entrails after they've died. You've made no direct attaacks on anyone that has't already been started by anyone else, but you are acusing me of 'flying under the radar' by making direct attacks on players with less than perfect reasoning.

Yeah, vote stays.

And the reason I am suggesting I Am probably going to be lynched is because more people are agreeing that I Am wrong than they are that You are wrong, and are dropping their votes on other wagons. Which means more votes are going to start popping up onto you or mine's wagon, which means that between you and me, I Will probably be lynched. You can pretend you didn't notice that, just like you pretended to forget me and Zindaras had played in games together and then tried to make it a RL thing instead of a game thing. That's cool. But I can see through it.

[Mizzy]

Skruffs, I don't think we have any wagons right now, actually, which is rather interesting because we have several pretty good cases. Let me make a couple of comments and ask a few questions of several players:

Skruffs:

It feels a little bit like you are attacking/voting Y because of the spat you two are having, even if it originally began from a valid set of case points. It feels a little OMGUS, and it also seems like you are worrying about being lynched when there's only one vote on you, currently. I'm not trying to attack you, but I'd like to know why you're being so worried about it just yet?

Y:

Telling someone to shut up like that isn't the nicest thing in the world. I am guilty of it, myself, but I felt pretty bad about it after and vowed not to do that again. Even if Skruffs' posting is annoying to us (trust me, I understand that part) it would not help town if he simply shut up. His activity does help, and it does give us more information.

RS:

Your post #703 comes off as a bit overly-agreeable, maybe because you're happy to get conversation off you and onto someone else? Yosarian2 made some good points against you in his #708 that I don't see responses to. It feels like you're brushing off what he has to say about you. Your suspicions of him seem very, very OMGUS, also.

I'm still not liking Mizzy's behaviour in general Today (snip)

Are you not liking my play because I suspect you or are you not liking my play because it's convenient for you? Because, seriously, my play hasn't been anything out of the normal for me, and most of it today has centered around trying to keep the town from making the same mistake twice. I can't see what's so bad about that from a town perspective...I can see why scum would hate it, but not townies. Also, what gives you a pro-town read on RS?

[Yosarian2]

. If I am lynched and show as town, you still won't be interested in the lines of suspicion of ANY of the players I suggested - instead you will be going after Rotten Snitch, regardless of my alignment.

Huh? I know this was not your main point, but that line confused me; lately, I've actually had the feeling Y might be trying to protect Rotton Snitch.

[Y]

Skruffs, maybe I didn't phrase myself correctly, and that's why we're not understanding each other.

When I said I understand your way of play and that I was like that, I was referring to 'being right instead of being good' part. Insisting on things when other people don't get you is not good. That's a mistake you're doing. It seems like you care more about saying what you have to say and having 'original thoughts', than to actually get the player you think is scum lynched.
While this is a mistake that I made, that's not what I'm accusing you of. The reason I think you're scum is that the logic and ideas you share with us, are based on erroneous, lacking, or distorted facts. My attack doesn't lie on you wishing to express yourself, but with you using non-existing bases to do so.

I do think zindaras would do a better job attacking a player than you, because more people listen to him, and more people ignore you. You said so yourself. You actually said that you're helping me by attacking me.

Although I'm town and Zindaras getting me lynched isn't good, from your perspective I'm scum. If you're a townie, and you think I'm scum, you should want me dead. Knowing that usually people you attack don't get lynched, and knowing that some one else is attacking them, the best thing you can do is to have the other player get them lynched (That's what I meant when I said to shut up).
So, you're a player. You think some one is scum, but then you interfere with their lynch? That seems awfully anti-town. It seems more probable to me that you just need some one to get lynched, so you just do whatever you can.

By the way, I wasn't telling you to sit and shut up, but that this

would

be a better option for you, if you really thought I'm scum and you really wanted me lynched.

It seems like me and Skruffs are arguing for a long time, and there are more than enough posts, big posts, to read. It seems very odd that almost no one has anything to say about it.

[Y]

lately, I've actually had the feeling Y might be trying to protect Rotton Snitch.

Why?

[Yosarian2]

Y: You've never commented directly about RS or about my case on RS; about the only time you've said anything about him were comments implying that he might be town.

I don't know about RS, but Skruffs did get my attention for being weird and irrelevant.

I think Skruffs is the best lynch. I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

And then when I asked you to clarify, you just said:

I really can't decide between Yos and RS. I'm not ruling out the possibility of both of them being town, fighting each other blindly.

You really think that's the most likely possibility here, Y?

Nope. I'm not sure about the situation, therefore I don't want to ignore that possibility, which I believe no one pointed until now.
You could also be two scum distancing, but it seems to me that if you were, you probably crossed the line attacking each other.

Which feels a bit iffy to me, like you're trying to avoid actually comitting yourself to anything. I note that whenever you discribe my attacks on RS, you so so in such a way as to imply that me and RS are about equally scummy, which might be something you're trying to subtly suggest to the town , while I tend to thing the truth is more like "Yos made a logical case against RS, RS OMGUSed him back".

Also, the whole "Oh, they might both be town" thing seems wierd to bring up unless you've actually got some kind of gut feeling or something that makes you think that's a real possibility; especally as most people right now aren't voting for either of us, I don't think it's likely that's something that no one's brought up.

Basically, none of that is anything really solid, it could easily be offhand comments on your part, but it's enough to make me think that if RS does come up as scum I'll want to take a closer look at you tommorow.

[eldarad]

/post

Mizzy, I see your questions, I'll answer them when I have the time and inclination. (Maybe even later tonight, depends)

[Mizzy]

/post

Mizzy, I see your questions, I'll answer them when I have the time and inclination. (Maybe even later tonight, depends)

No worries, I know folks are busy.

[Zindaras]

Been working on posts, will finish tomorrow. Busy weekend, too.

[Skruffs]

I'm still really iffy on Zindaras' style.

I do'nt know if my attack on Y is OMGUSsy or not. Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean it's not validated. I think his decision to join in on the arguments against me was oppurtunistic, and I feel he's pushing a weak case against me. If it is OMGUSsy, I don' thtink that I should be deiscreditted for that.

As for hte worrying about being lynched thing, I thought there were four votes being cast, and I Thought two people had unvoted. There were actually 5, and eldarad only unvoted, but I am *stiull* pretty sure that at least one other player suggested consolidating votes. I think there are more people in disagreement with me than with any other player. I am aware that my fussing is distracting players (Mizzy, Zindaras, Y) from 'fulfilling their duties' in investigating other people. Poor Zindaras has had hardly a breath for anyone else, and I am sure he is really going to miss the fall back of baiting and harping on SKruffs after I am gone.

So I guess I don't have a very big reason to worry about being lynched, except that I perhaps might be more sensitive to the ebb and flow of suspicion in the game. It seems to me that there is a greater underlying support of lynching me than there is at any other player. And since the game is in deadline, there is going to be a growing and growing risk that we won't lynch anyone at all unless someone is lynched. This gives players more of a reason to put votes on me; I did it myself day one, as did Y and Yosarian2 and probably several others.

Y:
Perhaps I am not the best at stating logical, important cases that others can follow through to finishing. However, I *am* good at provoking responses.

There is absolutely no reason for me to sit down and shut up. If I think someone is scum, it is my responsibility to vocalize as such, express my suspicions, and see what happens. Believe it or not, I can't lynch someone myself. And if I don't say what I see, then there's no way I can get scum lynched myself.

That's where everyone else comes in. I jump in to the fray and start poking people; that illicits responses. Do I know if I am poking scum? no. Only scum know who scum are. Well, scum and potentially cops, but that's outside of this discussion. Point is, I don't need to have an awesome, well thought out case, unless I am sure that I have scum in my sights. Five times out of six, I am not sure. I think that someone asking someone else to form a solid, uncrackable case, point blank, every step of the way is more likely to be scum. Trying to get someone lynched for not knowing what they are doing, is more likely to be done as scum, because Scum are the informed minority/.


You provided a situation where you helped lynch Ryan, although the original case on wagon was formed basically out of the blue from random comments. What I am doing, in this game, is helping to provide comments so that actual cases *can* be built. Maybe by me, maybe by someone else. The stupid, 'erroneous', 'illogical' case that I have put out on Mizzy, Zindaras, you, etc, maybe they don't stand very well on their own, RIGHT NOW... but maybe the way you responded to it is going to trigger someone else, later on, to look at you and build their own case, a case that is a lot more valid.

Considering that both Yosarian2 and Zindaras (Both very good scum hunters WHEN THEY ARE TOWN) are still alive, and Elmo and Strappado7 are not, it looks to me that scum is more interested in either hunting for power roles or for digging up WIFOM, the latter of which I have tried to illustrate to the best of my abilities. They are not focussed on killing the excellent debaters - I am not sure if Elmo is considered 'really good' or not, I know that I endgamed him as scum in Big Love which was really hard but whatever. The point is, wether I am making good cases or not, I Think that I am helping flush out information that is going to help town build cases later on.

[Rotten Snitch]

/post again

[Andycyca]

/post. Just found a micro contradiction in Y's posts from D1

[Skruffs]

Badadumpapost.

[Rotten Snitch]

filler deadline posty thing...... read what happened over the weekend and i'm gonna have to read it again.

[Y]

/post. Just found a micro contradiction in Y's posts from D1

I'd like to hear it. Was it so hard to actually write it, instead of just commenting it?

I don't like the people who just post to get the deadline requirement (RS, that's two in a row). The point of the requirement is to be active. We can postpone the deadline for months by writing '/post' all the time, but we need a lynch, so please add content.

Yos, I'm not saying that RS is town, nor that you're scum. I'm saying that I can understand both of you and your accusations, and I'm not sure yet who is scummier. If I had to make the decision right now, I'd probably vote RS over you (Mostly because of hid distancing from Skruffs), but it's too close for me to actually to make a good decision not based mostly on gut feeling.

[Y]

EBWOAP: That's three in a row for RS. Please add some non-useless content. Thank you.

[Rotten Snitch]

Here is Yos’s post 708 which some said I have disregarded. My answers in bold.

I have made a case, Rotton Snitch. I think the way you behaved around the Capi wagon yesterday, supporting it in wishy washy terms but not joining it, is just the way I would expect a scum in your position to act. And, to top it off, after you tried to push that wagon without being on it, now you're attacking me for being on it. It's pretty much a textbook example of scum behavior.

the basis of this accusation is wishy-washy I do not see anywhere that wishy-washy is a common scum tell. I think that most of the town with the exceptiong of any of the scum on his wagon had the same wishy-washy reasons for pushing or voting. I did not think that Capri was scummy but at the time we all agreed that no lynch was worse that mis lynch. I was not on his wagon and I did not vote him on the terms of “Pressure for a defense” Look at how this is turning out Yos…. You are voting me and I defend. You think it is scummy… I therefore think that whether Capri defended himself or not your vote would have stayed. I believe this is scummier than any of my actions day 1. You voted him with the idea that you would pull the vote. He never defended himself so your vote stayed. Now today you say the most active I have been with when I am being attacked and you are saying this is scummy. I think no matter what I do or what Capri did your vote was going to stay. Tunnel vision in a game this large is dangerous. Your vote has been on me all game and with the exception of voting Capri you have not changed or have voted elsewhere. Now you are calling out anyone (Y) who does not see your point and badgering them by saying they are defending me because they don’t see the scum that you do.

Also, you've done very little all game that looks designed to help the town, you've mostly only acted in response to being attacked yoursef. Everything you've done all game feels off-kilter and self serving. Frankly, that'd be more then enough reason already for me to want to lynch you, is just the vibe I'm getting from your posts in general

I am defensive by nature you could ask Strappado and Skruffs that Meta stuff if ya want. I actually work better when cornered and pressured. As for helping the town… You are not the town. If some of the others think I am pro-town it doesn’t help your arguments much

And rather then respond to my accusations against you, you OMGUS attack me instead, and continue to ignore what I've said and pretend that I'm attacking you for no reason. I've explained why I voted for Capi yesterday, and you keep either misrepresenting or ignoring everything I've said. And yet, you never had a problem with my attsck on or my vote for Capi yesterday, and you didn't have a problem with it today, UNTIL I started attacking you in earnest, at which point you apparently started looking for something to attack me with. Again, that's the way a scum acts; a mafia member dosn't care about finding scum, obveously, but he needs to look like he's trying to find scum, so instead of actually looking for scum a mafia member often tries to get people lynched who look like a threat to him; or if he can't get them lynched, he tries to discredit them. And again, even besides that, the way you've tried to defend yourself feels scummy; instead of responding to my points, you ignore them, try to confuse the issue, and pretend I haven't made any point, and try to attack me in any way you can think of.

see now this is what I hate about the OMGUS you can use it as an excuse no matter what….. I found your constant accusations on me annoying yes but it also grew in scumminess when you kept it up. Is there any way to finally say “hey buddy your actions are increasing in scumminess and I think you are a bad guy that is trying to get me lynched”……without it looking OMGUS? Just because you have a suspicion on me does not mean I am not allowed to accuse you later. Now if day one I had it out for you because you replaced in and kept your vote then you could probably call it OMGUS but the fact that I disregarded your nips and bites at me does not mean I am scum. I think your case on me does not hold an ounce of water and the minute I find something scummy in you…… ya start crying OMGUS, OMGUS, OMGUS!!!!! I believe you are trying to go for what you think would be an easy wagon, and using each of my posts to nitpick another scum tell

The thing you seem to not be getting is that the reason I wanted Capi to defend himself was so I could figure out his alignment. You can tell a lot about someone's alignment based on how they defend themselves. And right now, your defense feels like that of a scum who knows I'm right and so is trying to do everything but answer the valid points I have raised against him.

I explained what I thought of your Capri vote already. I think you used the excuse of pressure to vote him without getting any attention. Whether Capri defended himself or not you would not pull your vote you would have found something in his post to validate your vote. It was just an excuse to join the wagon and not be accused of it later

You have not done one single thing yet this game that feels pro-town to me. Nothing you've done looks or feels like a real attempt to find scum. You're very when under attack but when you're not under attack you're quiet. Basically, you act like I normally expect mafia members to act.

this in itself is your opinion just as I got scummy vibes from you because of the constant hounding no matter how I posted or how often. I could makes posts identical to yours but you would find something in them scummy and use it against me. You are accusing me of playing how you’d expect a mafia to play, however I have only been in a few games and have yet to be scum in any of them including this one.

[Rotten Snitch]

Y - i said I would not be on during the weekend but being as I do not want to go no lynch i logged to make sure we made deadline and I did not know how my afternoon was going to look but yet again i wanted to make sure we did not go into no lynch

[Rotten Snitch]

How about this one.
In my post 716 I called andy out for lurking and what not. Since then he has done nothing to either argue the point I made or further any content posts
If ya look at his contribution in posts since Thursday
729 states he is busy
730 makes a very very small scum list and promises to read more later
743 he throws a one liner back at skruffles
766 found a contradiction in Y’s posts but doesn’t go any further

My vote will stay on Andy until he can contribute something more than filler which is what some have accused me of…..

As a matter of fact the only time he has been active was at the beginning of the game, then at the end of day 1. He then he goes back to his tests and papers.

It’s a shame we can’t ask the mod for a content prod because it seems he is active enough to slip by everyone else’s scumdar

[Mizzy]

Not wanting to go into no-lynch is very chivalrous of you, RS, but you didn't need to post filler posts quite so often.

Also, I want to stick my big nose in here and comment on this:

this in itself is your opinion just as I got scummy vibes from you because of the constant hounding no matter how I posted or how often. I could makes posts identical to yours but you would find something in them scummy and use it against me. You are accusing me of playing how you’d expect a mafia to play, however I have only been in a few games and have yet to be scum in any of them including this one.

Of course it's his opinion...this entire game is based on opinions for the most part. Very little is truly concrete in these games and it's the town's opinion of a player that makes a difference.

As for your defense against Yos's "you play how I would expect mafia to play," your answer doesn't really cut it. Just because you have only been in a few games doesn't mean you can't be scum acting like scum in this one. We have no way to know your alignment, so simply stating that you are not scum here doesn't do us a damned bit of good.

What I think Yos is saying, and what I also feel after a quick re-read of you, is that your actions have not been pro-town and have been in line with what a scum (noobscum if you ask me) would act like. Your prior roles and experience (or lack thereof) don't change that, and in fact, because you haven't been scum in other games, it makes more sense that you would be a noobscum in this one who is screwing up and looking like noobscum.

I really think my first impression of you from D1 was accurate and I think you're a good scumbet. I want to see what others have to say before voting, but until then,

FoS: RS.