mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[Skruffs]

Explain what you mean, that could be in relation to anything.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Evilgorrilaz (2) -- populartajo, CoheedCambria09
Alvinz95 (3) -- Mellowed Man, Gaspode, Cream147
Mellowed Man (1) -- iamausername
CoheedCambria09 (1) -- Marmalade
Cream147 (1) -- Alvinz95

Not voting: Elias_the_thief, Matt_S, Skruffs, Evilgorrilaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Skruffs]

HA! Stole your top of page!
NYA NYA

[CoheedCambria09]

Especially Coheed's, "Though they can be helpful for finding Doc, Cop, or scum there isn't much else there."

I'm really trying to figure out A) why Coheed put cop and doc in front of scum in the order of what they can help you find, and B) what else coheed is *trying* to find. Roleblocker tells? Vig tells? Mason tells? Saying something is useful for catching scum and then discarding it is... bad.

If you look at the page, There are a list of roles at the bottom you can click into that show how to find that person, the only ones that are done are Cop, Doc and Scum, I didn't think someone would get angry because of the order I put them in. I never said that the things were outdated, I just wish the page had been completed. It would help out new players.

[Skruffs]

But what other ones are *you* interested in finding, right now?

[Elias_the_thief]

Skruffs, please get a new avatar...i keep getting you and patrick confused.

[Mellowed Man]

I forgot to put this game on my watch list, I will catch up within 36.89 hours.

IGMEOY Skruffs, it looks like you are the moderator. Therefore, I agree with Elias.

[Skruffs]

That is exactly the point.
IF I look like Patrick, people will listen to me more.

[Elias_the_thief]

Thoughts: A mini essay on the current state of players in relation to scumminess.

Gaspode

: Something has been bothering me about his posts, but I cant exactly put my finger on it. I guess he's been kind of reminding me of my own scum play, but given meta differences, i cant really say that means anything. I guess another thing thats bothering me about him in the first vote he places, on Alvin. That post seems to take some things I consider null tells, or perhaps noob tells, and try to make a case. The thing that bothers me is not the vote, but that there were better things to attack at the time than that. I also dislike the long resistence to voting even when he posted several strong opinions. Meh. Until I can express in words what exactly is bothering me about him, I have a

town to neutral

read on him.

Iamausername

: Seems solidly town so far. My only problem with him is lack of any real suspicions laid out, besides Mellowed Man of course. I'll see whether I agree with you when I get down to him. But yeah, I'd like some thoughts on more than just him, and (if possible) more than just gut reasoning. For now, I have a

town

read on him.

EvilGorilaz

: Likes bandwagons, so cool. Doesnt like metas, so lame. Meh, not too much of note. Makes some decent posts with attacks and questions. So far, I have a

town

read on him.

MellowedMan

: Nothing too scummy in my opinion. Not sure why hes getting so much heat, though I'll admit the part where he forgets what his reasoning was is sketchy, but not necessarily scummy. It does seem that scum would have a weaker idea of why they attack things as they are not sincere in the attacks, but not too strong a tell. I have a

neutral

read on him.

Populartajo

: Again, more aggressive then ive seen in the past, and unsure of how to interpret that. He was town there, but meh, I cant really decide what it means. I plan to reread that game. Um, like his posts for the most part, of the prodding and questioning style that is good for garnering info, but his reasons for suspecting people seem weak to me. His addition of Matt S to his scum list in particular was silly. Meh, so far a

town to neutral

read on him.

CoheedCambria

: Very much classic noob behavior, will improve with experience methinks. Um, seems to be very cautious, and very adamant at pointing out how new he is, which seems to me like it would be more advantageous to scum than to town, but meh. Also, he contradicts himself a couple times, such as having his arguments against evilgorrilaz defeated, then saying hes voting on gut, and at one point saying evil is the best lynch, and later saying that he wasnt pushing the gorrilaz lynch. Also, doesnt want to get bandwagoned? That makes him the perfect candidate for bandwagoning imo. I have a

neutral to scum

read on him.

Cream

: Unvote into fos? Seems kind of weird, maybe a bit noncommittal, not certain though. Exaggerates a little in his post 4 (by sort by post on his name), but this seems to me like more of a noob tell then anything else, though hes not THAT new. Argument with alvinz = waste of space, no real info garnered. At least he backed out of it when he realized it. Hope that he gets back into the game soon, because I could use some better info on him. I have a

neutral

read on him.

Alvinz

: Says he doesnt mind bandwagoning, next post fos's evil for bandwagoning. Contradict yourself much? Moves on to make some reaching attacks, specifically, about the Tajo-Marmalade connection, and his attacks on me for being a lurking IC. Backs off from initial attacks on me, defends himself *decently*, goes into useless squabble with Cream. I have a

neutral to scum

read on him.

Marmalade

: More of the prodding and questioning style of play, which definately has its uses. I like his analysis, and he came to a lot of conclusions similar to my own, especially about CoheedCambria. Could use moar postzorz. So far, I have a

town

read on him.

Hypatia/Matt S

: Was liking the posts until the request for replacement . Not sure what people dont like about her posts really. Then Matt steps in and posts major analysis, which is always good. Not a fan of his policy of ignoring coheed. Overall nothing too impressive from him. I have a

neutral

read on him.

Ashmite/Skruffs

: Makes small attacks, and asks for prods without doing too much himself, which I find annoying, if not overtly scummy. Not too much content, requests replacement. In comes Skruffs. Makes some basic analysis, reminds me of what he was like in a past game with him (nightless perhaps?) I'm making a note to go back and see what he was in that game, though im not planning on basing my entire read on such a small meta at this point. Due to ashmites play, I have a

neutral to scum

read on him.

I believe thats everyone. Given what I've said,

vote: coheedcambria

. Now who's outshining who?!?

[Matt_S]

Not a fan of his policy of ignoring coheed.

I think waiting a while for Coheed to get a feel for things will give us better tells. I'm not entirely comfortable with letting him slide today, but I've seen quite a few newbies act the same way. I don't particularly like the odds. However, I'll reread him and see if I've been cutting him too much slack.

[populartajo]

Logical=/=right. Cream's logic that Elias isn't more likely to be scum than the other lurkers is logical. Being suspicious of someone because of an FOS that appears uncalled for is logical. Cream took the attack further than I would have, but he does a good job of keeping his arguments based on logic rather than lies and WIFOM.

Are you suggesting that Im lying? About the WIFOM thing, I've used it a million times as townie since its not 100% true but it can give us an idea of why is he doing or not doing that.
Also why do you think Cream took the attack further that you would have. That doesnt bother you?

I still think it's a pretty sudden switch for you to make.

And?

Again though, all they did was not bandwagon the guy who appeared to love bandwagoning.

Mmm, my suspcions about them go beyond that. Reread please.

Populartajo: Again, more aggressive then ive seen in the past, and unsure of how to interpret that. He was town there, but meh, I cant really decide what it means. I plan to reread that game. Um, like his posts for the most part, of the prodding and questioning style that is good for garnering info, but his reasons for suspecting people seem weak to me. His addition of Matt S to his scum list in particular was silly. Meh, so far a town to neutral read on him.

Why do you think its silly to add Matt to my scum list? Last time I heard about you, every people who suspected you were a group of retarded and should be scum. [/sarcasm]
In all seriousness, I still dont understand the base of his suspicions, going after me when there's evidently scummier players than me and he strangely avoids them.

[Elias_the_thief]

I may have called everyone retarded, but I said nothing about them all being scum. I said that selective ones were. Also, I was scum there, so its not something to compare you play with under the presumption that you are town.

Not understanding the base of his suspicions does not make HIM scum. He may be going after you because he would like to pressure you to get more info, or something of that nature. Your suspicion of him basically boils down to OMGUS imo, and the fact that he doesnt value the same tells that you do. Thats silly.

[populartajo]

Oh, God, here we go again.

I may have called everyone retarded, but I said nothing about them all being scum. I said that selective ones were. Also, I was scum there, so its not something to compare you play with under the presumption that you are town.

Note the sarcasm tag.

Not understanding the base of his suspicions does not make HIM scum. He may be going after you because he would like to pressure you to get more info, or something of that nature. Your suspicion of him basically boils down to OMGUS imo, and the fact that he doesnt value the same tells that you do. Thats silly.

He votes for me to pressure me. All OK with him.
I might be doing the same thing and Im silly.
ORLY?

[Elias_the_thief]

Well, I may be impartial due to the fact that I thought his arguments made sense, while your attacks on him were basically like, "youre attacking me and I dont understand why". It just seemed more natural that someone with actual justification would want to put pressure rather than the person whos arguments were extensions of OMGUS. Also, I'm fairly sure that he didnt vote you, and simply put you in with his analysis of everyone, so your claims of him voting you and ignoring scummier things is false, making your attacks even sillier.

[Evilgorrilaz]

He votes for me to pressure me. All OK with him.
I might be doing the same thing and Im silly.
ORLY?

Seems silly because its more of an OMGUS way.

[populartajo]

Could you please read my posts?
If you think the vote for Matt_s was an OMGUS one or even an extension of this, then the silly are you. Really.

[Skruffs]

Elias:
The last game me and you played in (other than perhaps Pirates vs Ninjas) was Nightless, and we were both town, and I helped a town wind at lylo.

[Evilgorrilaz]

If you think the vote for Matt_s was an OMGUS one or even an extension of this, then the silly are you. Really.

No, I am not saying it was OMGUS, just that it had an OMGUS element to it. More along the lines of "how can you not see this?" kind of reasoning.

[Matt_S]

Are you suggesting that Im lying? About the WIFOM thing, I've used it a million times as townie since its not 100% true but it can give us an idea of why is he doing or not doing that.

The lying part was simply an alternative to logic. The only thing related to you is the WIFOM. While using WIFOM can help get a feel for why a person's acting some way, it can also be wrong, and using it only when you think it's right simply leads to confirmation bias. If you think it's useful, there's probably other evidence against him that made you think that.

Also why do you think Cream took the attack further that you would have. That doesnt bother you?

No, it doesn't bother me because I think I tend to play safely. I've seen townies attack viciously before, so I see no reason to think there's anything necessarily wrong with how Cream acted.

And?

It usually takes big things to make big flips. I didn't see anything big before you changed your mind, which makes me think your suspicions weren't well based.

Mmm, my suspcions about them go beyond that. Reread please.

Well, your suspicions of Mellowed Man look to be because he has suspicions of alvinz95 that you don't have, and your suspicions of Cream147 seem to be because you dislike his logic. Overall, it still looks to me like you're linking them together for having different suspicions that you do.

And I've done a reread of CoheedCambria09. My opinion is largely unchanged, but I'd like more contributions from him. He seems to either go on gut or follow other people's logic most of the time. I don't think he's a good play for today.

[Elias_the_thief]

If you think the vote for Matt_s was an OMGUS one or even an extension of this, then the silly are you. Really.

No, I am not saying it was OMGUS, just that it had an OMGUS element to it. More along the lines of "how can you not see this?" kind of reasoning.

This basically sums it up...perhaps it is not OMGUS per se, but it seems to be along the lines of "how can you find X not scummy, and find me scummy instead?", which I would say is related to the same underlying logic that supports OMGUS. Either way, I still find the addition of him to your list silly, as no ones alignment is known at this point. Having differing suspicions means nothing solid until the alignments are known.

[Cream147]

Thanks for your explanation of what you meant Skruffs, that's makes things less hazy. I also didn't like coheed's post suggesting that the thing on the wiki is not helpful except it helps find scum...to be honest, I don't think finding masons is particularly important to the town. Is that a slip? I'm not sure, but I don't like it.

[Skruffs]

It's enough of a slip to me, especially day one, to warrant an

IGMEOY: CC

[iamausername]

Iamausername

: Seems solidly town so far. My only problem with him is lack of any real suspicions laid out, besides Mellowed Man of course. I'll see whether I agree with you when I get down to him. But yeah,

I'd like some thoughts on more than just him, and (if possible) more than just gut reasoning.

For now, I have a

town

read on him.

Fair enough.

I've given another reread to try to pick out new stuff, but I can't say it's unearthed very much. I note that alvinz does a whole lot of OMGUSing - pretty much any time someone's posted suspicions of him, he's FoSed them for it and attacked them as much as defended himself. Could be scum trying to intimidate people into backing away from him (if so, I'm embarrassed to admit that it apparently worked on me), could just be hotheaded town. Still don't like his craplogic on Elias -

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it

would

help the town?

Coheed mostly just gives newbie tells rather than scum or town tells, but I'm agreeing with the suspicion about Post 247, the order he listed doesn't say much, since he's just reciting the order that they're listed on the wiki, but the fact that he's looking for anything besides scum at this point is extremely dodgy.

That's really the only two besides Mellowed Man that I've seen anything scummy enough to be worth mentioning at this point, but mainly my reread cemented my suspicions of MM. I still think the changing his random vote to the same person it was originally on is sketchy, and I think ashmite's theory on that makes more sense than anything else, I really hate his "Oh, I forgot" excuse, he hasn't made a remotely substantial post for over a week now, and his "36.89 hours" have now passed. I'd say he definitely needs more pressure at this point, because it looks to me like he's trying to slip under the radar.

[Cream147]

Cream: Unvote into fos? Seems kind of weird, maybe a bit noncommittal, not certain though. Exaggerates a little in his post 4 (by sort by post on his name), but this seems to me like more of a noob tell then anything else, though hes not THAT new. Argument with alvinz = waste of space, no real info garnered. At least he backed out of it when he realized it. Hope that he gets back into the game soon, because I could use some better info on him. I have a neutral read on him.

I love responding to analysis of myself, so here goes. The unvote and the fos that you are talking about were not connected. The unvote was because we were leaving the random vote stage and my vote was random.

Post 4 was exagerated. I don't really consider myself that new anymore, and I'm not going to use that as an excuse UNLESS that genuinely is the reason. I just wanted to make my point effectively, and went over the top. It agree that the whole alvinz thing got a bit silly, and at the subsequent arguing, worthless, though I still believe in my original argument. I think that raised certain points about alvinz.

I haven't been active lately (though in this game I haven't been massively active anyway) because I've been really busy. This should be resolved by Friday and then I'll be at an activeness that you'll probably think is over-active.

[alvinz95]

Alvinz, since you admit that that wasn't scumhunting, why did you think it would help the town?

It would help discussion moving as I said before... Like random votes get discussion rolling but they aren't scum-hunting.