mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[Patrick]

New Page Votecount

Vote Count:

Evilgorrilaz (2) -- populartajo, CoheedCambria09
Alvinz95 (3) -- Mellowed Man, Gaspode, Cream147
Mellowed Man (1) -- iamausername
CoheedCambria09 (1) -- Marmalade
Cream147 (1) -- Alvinz95

Not voting: Elias_the_thief, Matt_S, Skruffs, Evilgorrilaz
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[CoheedCambria09]

Sweet, two new players to add their insight and restart our game

[iamausername]

Awesome, we're fully staffed again. Cheers, Patrick, and our awesome replacements.

[Matt_S]

Hello everyone.

Unvote

if my predecessor was voting. I've done a quick read of the game already, and I'll do a bigger one tomorrow sometime. Now for a player analyisis.

CoheedCambria09

Well, he's new. I don't have much experience with newb scum tells, but he seems to have played fairly decently for someone new. Withholding judgment for now.

ashmite84

, a.k.a. Skruffs
I seem to be seeing an early fixation on Mellowed Man. I find it slightly odd when people end up being suspicious of those they random vote. Didn't really seem to post much. Mildly scummy, would like to hear replacement.

Cream147

Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical. Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

iamausername

Bandwagons evilgorillaz... for bandwagoning. Oh, irony. Later votes Mellowed Man because he is more wagonhoppy. Other than that, I agree with most of the things he says. Neutral.

Elias_the_thief

Doesn't do much. He says he's always like this day 1, though. I want to see some content on Day 2. Withholding judgment.

Evilgorillaz

Attacked relatively hard for switching votes. Attacked for not providing meta. Not attacked for this: "Honestly, alvinz's play comes off more like excited townie (power role maybe?). " Calm down with the rolefishing. Overall, a little scummy, but attacked for the wrong reasons.

Marmalade

He makes a good attack against CoheedCambria09, and he also has a good stance on providing meta and ICs lurking. He's pretty protown.

Mellowed Man

He has made nonrandom votes on CoheedCambria09 and alvinz95. He backs them up with little logic. Pretty scummy.

Gaspode

Opens with a bunch of FOS's. His vote on alvinz95 seems a bit wagony. He FOS's Cream147 when Cream147 and alvinz95 were in the middle of their argument. I'm probably being paranoid, but this smells a bit like scum distancing between the three. It's too early for that though. A bit protown.

alvinz95

I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

populartajo

He switches his stance on alvinz95 pretty quickly. Uses a WIFOM defense of alvinz95("newbie scum wouldn't do that", lol). He also links Evilgorillaz, Mellowed Man, and Cream147 pretty simply. Two of the people didn't bandwagon the wagonhappy guy, big whoop. He seems to be shooting in the dark almost. I smell scum.

Now to read about 70 pages of The Grapes of Wrath

[alvinz95]

I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

A wagon? Why would I want to start a wagon on Elias? He probably is one of the contributors and starting a wagon on him would be untownly! And every knows that it was crap-logic, but seriously, it wasn't for a wagon, for a lynch, or any means of scum hunting, and I was just trying to contribute. You can go ahead and call that comment "a means off brushing it off", but If i were to try to let it slide, I would just have ignored it.

What shocks me the most is that you've taken a liking to creams arguments. Most of the arguments he puts on the table are quite pathetic.

Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical. Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

(Sarcasm)
Yes, because a small fos is definitely a reason to vote someone. And "I was trying to trick her by saying that she didn't read populartajo's comment", which is totally a by no means a reason to vote. Putting a major fos down rather than a vote is definitely scummy. And all those reasons put together makes a for-sure reason to vote. Yes everything is

logical

.

So are you teamed with her or are you scum pals? Or do just a liking to very bad back-up?

I'm not liking your first post, because you have allied with cream, or scum partners, and you don't give much support in saying that almost everyone is scummy except coheed, cream, iamausername, marmalade. Nice.

Fos: Matt S

[Skruffs]

Okay.
Hi Elias.
**********
Coheed's post 29, "Nobody has left any tells yet" is preemptive and fatalistic. Coheed, if you want to see tells you have to help make them. That is what day one is for. You say something provocative and then other players use that to start disccusion amongst themselves. Your next(ish) post: We haven't had any real discussion is also similar - you have to instigate your own discussion, you can't be warning people away from voting by saying there's no reason for it, without helping to provide reasoning.
I am curious CC: In two earlier posts you say that there is not much to go on. Then in two following posts you express your newbieness. I am not trying to attack you, but I am curious about a few things:
A) Is english your native language? (It's cool either way) - your articulation suggests maybe you are french or spanish or something.
B) Since this is your first game, what experience do you have with the game? What kind of things are you looking for, or expecting, early in the game?

************

MEllowed man seems to be playing his cards really close to his chest; it reminds me of hte way cubsfan plays survivor, which was very scheming and transparent. His OMGUS vote, and then revote, followed by the tight, concise answer, is very conservative as well. Are you sweating, Mellowman?
secondly: I read CC's statement to read him as saying, "Sorry if I am saying things that are commonly seen as scum tells", not "sorry if I am revealing myself to be scum by making newb mistakes". Your post could be construed as one scum attempting to guide another, or it could be a townie looking for pieces of trigger.

***********
populartajo: voting evilgorillaz for liking silly bandwagons - but doesn't explain why ti is silly. (Yes, it is random voting, I know that. However, the only way to move it to real voting is to discuss the random voting.) It also was not much of a bandwagon with two votes. Still, a better reason than some others have given.

*************
Gaspode:
Why would you infer the name of IS in this place? *hiss*
Other than that, the analysis on page 40 seems par on my own, observational without a lot of commital, so that's good. Bringing info up to be discussed.
Hmm, you later explain the tells in a different way than I was seeing it, re: mith's scumtells list. I just think he was saying "nothing to talk about" as an excuse toa void discussing something else, something that newbie scums are most worried about.
**************
evilgorillaz - countering gaspode, which is also pro-town (regardless of wether you are right or not).

****************
alvin95 - your post 42 really seems to cover all the bases. You agree that EG is scummy for something, and then defend the reason he had for doing it; it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and/or explain something to children as you explain why the wagons can be good. Wagoning is effectively a tool of the brutish against the quiet.
-56 - this seems like less of a safety post. My guess is you are town.
****************
Marmalade: interesting that you only picked up on MM's voting style after he voted CC. Or rather, only then mentioned it.
********
iamausername:
Do you have something against FOSes? FOSes are basically weak lines of thought that a person is not willing to avctually vote for: it's basically saying, "If all else fails later in the game, come back here and push this." I get the impression from your post 53 that you would rather not have them. Other than that, it's interesting that you are willing to stick your neck out for other people so early in the game, like in your defense of my predecesser earlier in the game.
*********
populartajo-
Is it "popular-ta-hoe"? as in like a chevy tahoe? Or is it "Tah-joe"? or is the J supposed to be a C?
Anyways: your post 54 is interesting, it seems earnest but you don't extend yourself enough. What about alven's post seemed off to you? Why does it matter if EG has acted that way in other games? MM might know why you fossed him - but if he is scum, you just directly guided him, and if he's not, you still aren't helping the rest of us understand why. You should explain the fos on him (And you may have later, I Am typing as I read) What about Iamausername's post gives you a good vibe?
The whole point of giving your opinion is that you are supposed to actually give an opinion.

blah blah blah
I got to the bottom of page three, but I'm exhausted, and that's a start.
I will continue a fresh start in the morning, BUT

I am thinking this will be a fun game, it looks like there is a diverse crowd of dedicated players, and Elias, so it should be fun. I like games where players actually discuss with each other, converse, and so on. Hopefully I will be able to contribute my small part before I am inevitably nightkilled.

[Elias_the_thief]

I reckon, given that its page 10 and all, that I should probably reread and post some thoughts soon. I dont want to get outshone by skruffs >.<

[iamausername]

iamausername:
Do you have something against FOSes? FOSes are basically weak lines of thought that a person is not willing to avctually vote for: it's basically saying, "If all else fails later in the game, come back here and push this." I get the impression from your post 53 that you would rather not have them.

Eh, I don't mind that other people use them, but they don't seem to serve any real purpose, as far as I can see. If you're suspicious of someone, that should be obvious from the fact that you are questioning them or explaining your reasons for finding them suspicious. And if you're not doing that, well, you should be.

Other than that, it's interesting that you are willing to stick your neck out for other people so early in the game, like in your defense of my predecesser earlier in the game.

Well, I had to go back and reread to remember what you were talking about. To be fair, I think that was at least as much about questioning Gaspode's reasoning in Post 40 as it was defending ashmite. And I now note that Gaspode never actually did explain that one. Maybe I should drop a FoS on him for that.

[populartajo]

All newcomer welcome. Patrick, fantastic job.

populartajo: voting evilgorillaz for liking silly bandwagons - but doesn't explain why ti is silly. (Yes, it is random voting, I know that. However, the only way to move it to real voting is to discuss the random voting.) It also was not much of a bandwagon with two votes. Still, a better reason than some others have given.

At the beginning he liked silly bandwagons (alas, he seemed to not care where his vote was going), I also know its the random stage, but hey, I think that scum likes more silly bandwagons than even an eager townie.

Is it "popular-ta-hoe"? as in like a chevy tahoe? Or is it "Tah-joe"? or is the J supposed to be a C?

Its Spanish, so I guess is pronounced like tahoe.

Anyways: your post 54 is interesting, it seems earnest but you don't extend yourself enough. What about alven's post seemed off to you?

He somehow agreed with evilgorrilaz, but to be honest, it just felt wrong at that state of the game.

Why does it matter if EG has acted that way in other games?

Becuase I wanted to know if he's always that eager

.
MM might know why you fossed him - but if he is scum, you just directly guided him, and if he's not, you still aren't helping the rest of us understand why. You should explain the fos on him (And you may have later, I Am typing as I read)

I simply dont like people who jump oin newbies for just being that, newbies.

What about Iamausername's post gives you a good vibe?

They feel not too much intentionated, like with a relaxed tone.

The whole point of giving your opinion is that you are supposed to actually give an opinion.

Ok?

populartajo

Yey, I get double analysis.

He switches his stance on alvinz95 pretty quickly.

I've already stated that there was something wrong with that post but now I feel that he's more and more the alvinz from another game I played with him

.
Uses a WIFOM defense of alvinz95("newbie scum wouldn't do that", lol).

Whats the problem with that point? Only scum use WIFOM?

He also links Evilgorillaz, Mellowed Man, and Cream147 pretty simply.

I sicnerely believe there's at least one scum in this group. Yes, believe me.

Two of the people didn't bandwagon the wagonhappy guy, big whoop. He seems to be shooting in the dark almost. I smell scum.

Fix your nose

.

Cream147
Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical. Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

Logical, WTF? Can you tell me why you find logical in his attacks?

Long quotes deserve bold.
Also, add Matt to the [Mellowed Man and Cream are scum] list.

[populartajo]

EBWOP
Can you tell me what do you find logical in his attacks?

[Cream147]

lol to matt saying my attacks were logical. Surely if he reread properly he'd realise that that would cause outrage, as people seem to think that those attacks were as far from logical as...illogical.

[Evilgorrilaz]

FoS: Matt_S and populartajo

Matt_S misses the base on Cream's argument with alvinz.
populartajo, you say that using WIFOM is okay. So are you allowed to defend yourself illogically when everyone else has to use logic?

[Skruffs]

Allright. I finished reading, and I think I want to look at cream for right now.

(in response to alvin saying there aren't many reasons for voting him)
If you count the reasons, there are 4. Two are connected by elias, but I still count them as seperate reasons. At this stage of the game, that's a fair few. I think that bad logic does contribute to scumminess, because it could be intentionally trying to confuse the town. I agree that joining in with the conversation is a good thing for the town, but you've got to hold yourself responsible for what you say nonetheless! When I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible. I find the game more fun that way.

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

So, continuing that line, I Would suggest that if cream is scum, then this post might be clearing whoever Alvin is underfire for using bad logic on.

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, Especially on day one, because even mistakes can lead to progress in the game. So yeah.

*outshining Elias*

[Cream147]

Allright. I finished reading, and I think I want to look at cream for right now.

(in response to alvin saying there aren't many reasons for voting him)
If you count the reasons, there are 4. Two are connected by elias, but I still count them as seperate reasons. At this stage of the game, that's a fair few. I think that bad logic does contribute to scumminess, because it could be intentionally trying to confuse the town. I agree that joining in with the conversation is a good thing for the town, but you've got to hold yourself responsible for what you say nonetheless! When I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible. I find the game more fun that way.

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

So, continuing that line, I Would suggest that if cream is scum, then this post might be clearing whoever Alvin is underfire for using bad logic on.

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, Especially on day one, because even mistakes can lead to progress in the game. So yeah.

*outshining Elias*

I'm going to be honest here...this post has got me. I'm not at all sure what it means. I've reread it twice now, and I'm starting to feel stupid! I'd love to defend whatever this post's attack is but...well...sorry.

[Matt_S]

A wagon? Why would I want to start a wagon on Elias?

Lynching experienced people is good for scum. You could try and say that's not good because he was lurking at the time, but a lurker is bound to show up eventually.

What shocks me the most is that you've taken a liking to creams arguments. Most of the arguments he puts on the table are quite pathetic.

Logical, WTF? Can you tell me why you find logical in his attacks?

Logical=/=right. Cream's logic that Elias isn't more likely to be scum than the other lurkers is logical. Being suspicious of someone because of an FOS that appears uncalled for is logical. Cream took the attack further than I would have, but he does a good job of keeping his arguments based on logic rather than lies and WIFOM.

Whats the problem with that point? Only scum use WIFOM?

It has no place in proper arguments. Townies have no reason to make improper arguments.

I've already stated that there was something wrong with that post but now I feel that he's more and more the alvinz from another game I played with him.

I still think it's a pretty sudden switch for you to make.

I sicnerely believe there's at least one scum in this group. Yes, believe me.

Again though, all they did was not bandwagon the guy who appeared to love bandwagoning.

If you hadn't noticed, I'm very liberal in analyzing people's motives: I won't necessarily believe your stated motives(especially if you state them after the fact), but you're free to do the same for me.

[Cream147]

Just to clear it up as well, it was in an alvinz post I read earlier. I'm a 'he', ok.

[Gaspode]

So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

The concept is somewhat right, but in this instance, I don't think it's quite applicable.

The thing is, there's a huge difference between logic and inside information or "evidence". CrapLogic (TM) generally refers to people using information from the thread to create illogical arguments. This is ALWAYS bad for the town, as good logic from the thread is one of the only weapons the town has against scum. To me, asking for good logic is like asking people to play well--kind of pointless, but not scummy unless viewed in a "trying to seem helpful but really useless" kind of light.

The idea of asking for "evidence" or hard information of some kind can often be considered a tell--it increases the chances that the poster has some sort of inside info (which could mean cop, scum, or various other things). See jeep's "ScumTells" for a more in-depth description.

iamusername: I sort of explained Post 40 briefly in this post

when I see one person's FOS leading to a possible bandwagon, I start to think of common scum flying-under-the-radar tactics.

It's a pretty basic, common, and usually bad tactic for scum to post a big attack on one player and then not vote for them, so that the next day they can claim they weren't on the bandwagon (when they really started it).

[Matt_S]

So, continuing that line, I Would suggest that if cream is scum, then this post might be clearing whoever Alvin is underfire for using bad logic on.

Assuming I'm reading the rest of your post the same way, I came to the opposite conclusion that Cream as scum would be defending a scumbuddy from bad logic.

The idea of asking for "evidence" or hard information of some kind can often be considered a tell--it increases the chances that the poster has some sort of inside info (which could mean cop, scum, or various other things). See jeep's "ScumTells" for a more in-depth description.

I've only heard of this tell used for newbie cops in the past, but I'd hate to call it a town tell of any sort.

[Matt_S]

EBWOP: Where can I read about jeep's scumtells?

[Gaspode]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... mmon_Tells

Also interesting is the Lynch All Liars theory: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _All_Liars

Although it seems that fewer people nowadays live by these theories than did in the past (or at least fewer know about them). IMO, they should be required reading for anyone who wants to play this game at a high level. Even if the meta and WIFOM eventually make the specifics of the articles untrue (although I don't think this is very likely), they encourage a certain type of thought process that a lot of people don't seem to bother with these days.

[Elias_the_thief]

Jeep's Tells = outdated; meta changes too much every year for these to apply

LAL = retarded

---

Longer post in like a half hour, just wanted to point that out.

[Elias_the_thief]

damn, got distracted. Make that tomorrow.

(/has been outshined)

[CoheedCambria09]

Agreed about Jeep's tells, over half of them are not even finished, though they can be helpful for finding Cop, Doc, or Scum there isnt much else there.

LAL can be ok sometimes, but it should be used only when necessary.

[Skruffs]

I guess my point (in regards to Cream147) is that, especially on day one when people are still feeling things out, only scum really have the benefit of knowing which logic is flawed (IE would lead to a mislynch) and which logic has a grain of truth to it (would lead to a scum lynch)
Sometimes scum will attack townies for having 'bad logic', and can reasonably back themselves up because they know the townie *is* flawed in his thinking. It makes them look good, it gives them bonus points with the original attackee, and it keeps attention away from their scum group.

That's the point of what I am saying..


I don't think Mith's things are outdated, and I am raising my eyebrow at the two players (Elias and CC) who have been so quick to argue against them without explaining why.

Especially Coheed's, "Though they can be helpful for finding Doc, Cop, or scum there isn't much else there."

I'm really trying to figure out A) why Coheed put cop and doc in front of scum in the order of what they can help you find, and B) what else coheed is *trying* to find. Roleblocker tells? Vig tells? Mason tells? Saying something is useful for catching scum and then discarding it is... bad.

Anyways yes, the basis of Mith's scum tells can be taken into account by experienced scum, but, it's not a bad start. With 10 pages worth of information, and with most players claiming to be from within the last 9 months or so, I wouldn't write the list off. Knowledge is power; and if scum *is* already taking those tells into account (like I or Gaspode or Elias may have done) then town needs to know what scum might be trying to avoid doing.

[Marmalade]

Why are we launching what could become a problematic theoretical debate at this time? What exactly are the

advantages

of doing so?