Mafia 73: NEGWLTWWWTKY - Abandoned!

[elvis_knits]

Can't you just tell me who your scum buddies are so I don't have to read?

That would be nice.

Thanks.

[Toaster Strudel]

Can't you just tell me who your scum buddies are so I don't have to read?

That would be nice.

It sure would be nice, but I don't have scumbuddies in this game. Don't you know?

[Flameaxe]

I'm getting the sinking feeling you actually want me to read this entire game.

If we lynch you today, you won't have to. If we don't lynch you, your buddies can fill you in on the essentials at night.

E_K is a bad lynch. DGB is a good lynch.

[Flameaxe]

I'm getting the sinking feeling you actually want me to read this entire game.

If we lynch you today, you won't have to. If we don't lynch you, your buddies can fill you in on the essentials at night.

E_K is a bad lynch. DGB is a good lynch. Erg0 is a better lynch.

Fixed. Seriously, where is he?

[Toaster Strudel]

Erg0 is around, he needs to be prodded...

[JDodge]

Vote Count:

3: TS

(Battle Mage, elvis_knits, Panzerjager)

2: Zu_Faul

(hasdgfas, vollkan)

2: elvis_knits

(Toaster Strudel, zu_Faul)

1: Erg0

(Flameaxe)

Not Voting:

spambot, JordanA24, Xylthixlm, IH, Erg0

If someone can tell me who needs prods, I'll prod them - I don't quite have the time to go through and check for activity now.

[Battle Mage]

Prod Jordan please.

[Flameaxe]

Prog Erg0, IH, spambot. Gracias.

[Battle Mage]

heck, prod Xyl too while you're there!

[vollkan]

I'll get around to presenting the number rankings that have been requested shortly.

[IH]

Yay. I can shout at Volkan later.

Also I will attempt to post this weekend before I start cramming for exams.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm here. I just haven't seen anything happening.

[elvis_knits]

Way to kill the game, Xyl.

[IH]

^5

[Flameaxe]

^6 even.

[IH]

^7 fo sho

[vollkan]

Note: My system has recently been modified to run from -100 to 100 (note the absence of percentage signs) and it does incorporate claims. The reasons are simple:
1) People getting confused and thinking that it refers to proportions of 'something', or of mathematical probability of somebody being scum.
2) More numbers = broader range
3) The non-incorporation of claims is too complicated to have to explain all the time, and causes more trouble than it is worth ( Right, Xyl)

Zu

No change in my opinion. A quick glance over my posts will reveal all.

80

Spam

I had a larger explanation typed out, but I closed the tab by accident. Basically, ST was not fantastic. Spam opens with a scumdar which attacks lurkers, and playstyle shifts, but gives no indication as to his suspicion. He then goes on a tirade against me over a typo and a ridiculous allegation that I was willing to lynch anybody, which he then only makes worse by dropping to to a subjective feeling.

75

JordanA24

I had a few arguments with him earlier, but his responses were decent. Nothing flared since then.

50

Xylthixlm

Claimed mason. His heart seems to be in the right place as far as scumhunting goes, though the sharpness of his play is a little off-putting.

-20

Flameaxe

Let me preface this by noting that flameaxe is somebody who really frustrates me. Aside from that, Bookitty/Flameaxe is somebody I need to read over more closely. I haven't seen anything overly-suspicious to date, but I haven't thoroughly analysed him to the point of being sure that I have not missed anything. Consequently, I can only give FA a

0

, but I must stress that this is due to lack of suspicion arising out of a need to analyse, and not because I think his play actually merits a 0.

IH

Same situation as for FA. I haven't seen anything that has set me off, and that in itself means he is not a major suspect of mine, but I don't have a clear enough view to properly differentiate as town or scum.

0

hasdfgas

Despite the problems with his play, he has claimed CPR doc and that mitigates him to a

-10

Elvis_knits

Haven't analysed

0

Battle Mage

I found him suspicious earlier, and nothing has happened to my mind that seriously impacts upon that.

65

Erg0

Haven't analysed.

0

Panzerjager

Ditto

0

Toaster Strudel

Ditto, and is the player I most want to analyse in detail at this point in time.

[Toaster Strudel]

vollkan, analyse elvis_knits, it won't take you long. We need an opinion.

[vollkan]

Analysis of Mert, Yagami Light (YL), and Elvis_Knits (EK)

{Mert}
1: Hops onto Peers wagon with no explanation other than wagon is good.
2: Justifies the above based on his meta and a "you'll see"

kind of /ooc - but I really

hate

this "wait and see" playstyle; it's absolutely useless for analysis.

{YL}
2: First content post. The most interesting thing about this is that he doesn't actually label anything he identifies as "scummy". He expresses disagreement, and criticises some things, but he seems to be taking a very "safe" approach.
4: Finds Quag anti-town but not scummy. A null-tell, imo.

{EK}
0: Wants to be directed as to what to read. Needless to say, this is a truly dreadful attitude to take. No townie should ever ask to be "directed". I admit that reading threads on replacement can get a little tedious, but that's absolutely no excuse.
4: 6 pages in and is very suspicious of neoviper/FA. Her lack of reasons is conspicuous.
8: More unclear professions of suspicion against NV/FA (though, she likes FA, again vague reasons). Thinks TS has most been normal, but then makes what I think is a very dodgy attack based on TS's deadline actions. She was right to criticise people for hammering without waiting for a claim (unless it was absolutely last-minute and they needed to do so to prevent NL). She then votes TS for this, which is very interesting given that her previous suspicions had absolutely no reasoning, but were apparently very strong. See, what is interesting here is that she is apparently very suspicious of NV, but is still willing to vote somebody for what is ostensibly a very weak reason.
9: She suggests that TS calling ST's play a SK-tell is itself a mafia-tell. @EK: Did you consider the possibility that, for instance, TS was identifying the fact that certain behaviours may be attributable to SKs, or do you really think that she is so foolish as to make the slip you allege?
10: Points out that a bandwagon is forming on TS. I would like to point out that you don't appear to have very good reasons for this wagon at all.
11: This is a nice example of dodgy prosecution of a case. I shall quote to illustrate my point:

I was not trying to find you scummy. In fact I will excuse a lot of your play as normal since you are also DGB. But I can't understand your actions about unvoting k-scope and accusing others of being scmmy for not allowing a claim when it was deadline anyway.

Why shouldn't you be lynched? Have you claimed something? What is the point of alluding to it without telling me that it is?

The problem with the above is that she is inverting the onus of proof onto DGB. If EK had a proper case, the post above would read:

I was not trying to find you scummy. In fact I will excuse a lot of your play as normal since you are also DGB. But I think your actions about unvoting k-scope and accusing others of being scmmy for not allowing a claim when it was deadline anyway are scummy because [good reasons that don't involve feeling, gut, hunch, lurking, over-reaction, or any other of vollkan's pet hates]

[Reasons why you should be lynched] Have you claimed something? What is the point of alluding to it without telling me that it is?

12: Reiterates that she thinks TS was jumping off (and, for some bizarre reason, suggests TS knew Kscope was a power role).

Completely correct, but you aren't looking at the mens rea here. TS did jump off, but you are assuming her reasons for doing so are scummy

Thinks the SK comment was a slip

If I was TS , I would be offended at this

More interestingly, is the fact that she now describes TS's play as "relentless persuit of personal vendettas, wanting to lynch "trolls" regardless of allignment, and you have bandwagonned every pro-town player in the game as far as I can tell. So... yeah." when, not long before, she declared to find it largely fine.

13: Same deal about the NL. Seems to dodge her way around exactly what the heck she was talking about with the power role point. HA! Says she has looked at other players "and did so in the post where I voted [TS]". All she said in that post other than her ridiculous attack was the vague stuff about NV. She also ignores the fact that BM

did

post a case on TS. Maintains her assertion that it looks like a slip

@EK: Since this game revolves around trying to find scum, I assume you are not just relying what you feel it looks like, and that you have some actual reasoning for calling it a slip, other than that doing so adds another weak element to your case. Please explain to me why you think it is a slip. Do not simply tell me that you believe it is one, because that is not good enough in a game of mafia.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ye gods! There is a lot here that needs addressing from EK. I will refrain from giving an updated number at this point in time, because I want to see how she reacts and rationalises her play.

@EK

I request that you go through the above and respond to anything you think is important. If you miss anything, I will let you know. I want full explanations of your reasoning. And, as in the case of your alleged slip by TS, simply saying that you "think" something is not a sufficient explanation of your reasoning process. My analysis above is aggressive, but I have done that specifically because I feel that I need to get inside your head and understand the minutiae of your thought processes.

[IH]

Just for clarification, I think your number system is silly, and just adds on needless complicated percentages (which isn't even percentages anymore) in place of simple adjectives.

If you ARE going to use the number system, I would like to request you put them in order from scummiest to town or towniest to scum. In other words, put your nubmers in order. Thanks.

[vollkan]

In Order

Zu
Spam
BM
Jordan
{Everybody else}
Hasd
Xyl
----------

Note also that the position of EK will be contingent upon her responses.

[Shanba]

DarlaBlueEyes replaces JordanA24, who requested replacement

this brings us down to 5 original players now. Fun times.

[vollkan]

Actually, I think there are 4 original players: Zu, Hasd, Ergo, and TS

[Shanba]

Panerjager replaced his own replacement, and is thus an original player.

[elvis_knits]

{EK}
0: Wants to be directed as to what to read. Needless to say, this is a truly dreadful attitude to take. No townie should ever ask to be "directed". I admit that reading threads on replacement can get a little tedious, but that's absolutely no excuse.

It's 90 pages, senor. You can't even get any other replacements for this game cause it's so long. I am at least here and in this trying to help, even though I can't go back and read over 2000 posts. I agree it's less than ideal, and I don't blame you for being a little PO'ed, as you read the whole thing when it was 60 pages. I'm sorry. But you're looking at it from the perspective that "not having time to read, or not wanting to read 90 pages" is scummy. I don't think that's fair. If anything, wouldn't scum try to read more? To look more helpful? They would be trying to fake townie. I'm not. I'm just being honest with you.

If you want me to ask for a better replacement, I'll do that. But I don't think you can get anyone else.

4: 6 pages in and is very suspicious of neoviper/FA. Her lack of reasons is conspicuous.

I didn't like how in the beginning of the game neoviper votes BM for being jumpy. He gets voted himself and says

Your expecting me to react to a vote in the random voting stage?

Like he doesn't care if people vote him. Then next post he says

Unvote: Battle Mage Erg0, any reasoning behind your vote for me?

So he makes a big reaction by unvoting BM and asking for a reason BM is voting him. Which is so obviously in contrast to his earlier statement that he won't react to random votes on him.

This is why I was suspicous of NV, but I am not that suspicious of flameaxe. Maybe that's just because his playstyle is hard to read. At least for me.

8: More unclear professions of suspicion against NV/FA (though, she likes FA, again vague reasons). Thinks TS has most been normal, but then makes what I think is a very dodgy attack based on TS's deadline actions. She was right to criticise people for hammering without waiting for a claim (unless it was absolutely last-minute and they needed to do so to prevent NL). She then votes TS for this, which is very interesting given that her previous suspicions had absolutely no reasoning, but were apparently very strong. See, what is interesting here is that she is apparently very suspicious of NV, but is still willing to vote somebody for what is ostensibly a very weak reason.

I think I like flameaxe because he makes me laugh. It's not a good reason. I just find him hard to read, and I generally like having players like him in the game because at least they post and aren't afraid to vote.

You really think TS was right to criticize people for hammering Kscope? It was deadline. Did you want a no-lynch? There was no time for a claim. And I don't know why TS turned so against the lynch when she was already voting kscope before the bandwagon. IT doesn't make sense to me.

9: She suggests that TS calling ST's play a SK-tell is itself a mafia-tell. @EK: Did you consider the possibility that, for instance, TS was identifying the fact that certain behaviours may be attributable to SKs, or do you really think that she is so foolish as to make the slip you allege?

I believe there is a a townie mindset that is mostly looking for "scum" player and "town" players. At least in the beginning of a game, I don't think townies think about or look for SK's. It's too nebulous. Maybe later in the game I can see trying to identify scum from scum and looking for an SK. But I think townies don't look for SK on D1.

I believe mafia, who already have more info and know who all the mafia members are, look for other scummy players and can identify an SK much easier. They look for it, where a townie does not.

Could it be just a joke on TS's part? Sure. But I also think there is usually a grain of truth in jokes. Why would she choose to make that exact joke? Why was she thinking of SK's?

10: Points out that a bandwagon is forming on TS. I would like to point out that you don't appear to have very good reasons for this wagon at all.

I disagree. Do you really think TS acted normally at D1 deadline? Do you think it is normal to insist town gives someone time to claim when deadline is near or past? Do you think it's normal to act like that especially when TS was already voting Kscope (and supposedly already thought Kscope was scum)?

I think I do have good reasons.

And I said bandwagon was forming because I wanted something to happen in this game. It needs to move forward.

11: This is a nice example of dodgy prosecution of a case. I shall quote to illustrate my point:

I was not trying to find you scummy. In fact I will excuse a lot of your play as normal since you are also DGB. But I can't understand your actions about unvoting k-scope and accusing others of being scmmy for not allowing a claim when it was deadline anyway.

Why shouldn't you be lynched? Have you claimed something? What is the point of alluding to it without telling me that it is?

The problem with the above is that she is inverting the onus of proof onto DGB. If EK had a proper case, the post above would read:

I was not trying to find you scummy. In fact I will excuse a lot of your play as normal since you are also DGB. But I think your actions about unvoting k-scope and accusing others of being scmmy for not allowing a claim when it was deadline anyway are scummy because [good reasons that don't involve feeling, gut, hunch, lurking, over-reaction, or any other of vollkan's pet hates]

[Reasons why you should be lynched] Have you claimed something? What is the point of alluding to it without telling me that it is?

I hate you for trying to teach me how to write posts. That's really pompous of you.

The reason I said "Why shouldn't we lynch you?" is because she posted this:

It's clear that elvis_knits has hardly read the game, and what little she read, was read with a mind to find reasons to find me scummy, and did not pick up on the one overwhelming reason why I shouldn't be lynched.

Perhaps the more astute players have picked up on it, and might care to point it out to her, or, preferably, to just tell her to put a sock in it, and find some real scum.

I know that saying "why shouldn't we lynch you" is a lame scummy thing to say under some circumstances. But I didn't just pull it out of my ass like "well, we have nothing better to do so why shouldn't we lynch you." I said it because she said she should not be lynched without giving any reason. Try reading in context next time before you attack me and try to teach me how to post.

12: Reiterates that she thinks TS was jumping off (and, for some bizarre reason, suggests TS knew Kscope was a power role).

Completely correct, but you aren't looking at the mens rea here. TS did jump off, but you are assuming her reasons for doing so are scummy

Thinks the SK comment was a slip

If I was TS , I would be offended at this

More interestingly, is the fact that she now describes TS's play as "relentless persuit of personal vendettas, wanting to lynch "trolls" regardless of allignment, and you have bandwagonned every pro-town player in the game as far as I can tell. So... yeah." when, not long before, she declared to find it largely fine.

You're not understanding what I am saying. I always thought TS was playing like this: "relentless persuit of personal vendettas, wanting to lynch "trolls" regardless of allignment, and you have bandwagonned every pro-town player in the game as far as I can tell." I actually don't think that's too scummy coming from her. I could see her playing that way as town too. I am not switching my assesment of her play. I think it could go either way generally. But I feel the D1deadline shenanigans are not cleared up for me.

TS asked me to look at her play as a whole, and not just the few things I have picked up on. My point was that her play as a whole does not make her look better. It doesn't really make her look worse because I could see her playing that way as town too. But it really doesn't make her look good.

13: Same deal about the NL. Seems to dodge her way around exactly what the heck she was talking about with the power role point. HA! Says she has looked at other players "and did so in the post where I voted [TS]". All she said in that post other than her ridiculous attack was the vague stuff about NV. She also ignores the fact that BM

did

post a case on TS. Maintains her assertion that it looks like a slip

@EK: Since this game revolves around trying to find scum, I assume you are not just relying what you feel it looks like, and that you have some actual reasoning for calling it a slip, other than that doing so adds another weak element to your case. Please explain to me why you think it is a slip. Do not simply tell me that you believe it is one, because that is not good enough in a game of mafia.

I've explained the slip above after your stuff about 9, and why I think that way.