Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Patrick]

1 Mizzy (eldarad)
1 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Skruffs)
1 Yosarian2 (Rotten Snitch)

4 Unvote (Andycyca, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

This block was secured a while back.

[Rotten Snitch]

@ Zindy- No Yos did not post anything convincing about me. He wanted my lynch yesterday but was fine with lynching Capri. Now he is back and has said that I seem scummy.

@ Yos-

So your actions yesterday were not proof enough? You were suspicious of me yesterday and yet you jumped on the Capri wagon to "get him to defend himself" Yet he didnt and you stayed voting him. He hung and you went back to me.

Again, yeah, I probably should have pushed harder to lynch you yesteday, since you're scum. But again, if you have a problem with the way I acted yesterday, go back and respond to the post where i explained why I acted the way I acted yesterday. I really laid it out there in great detail; and strangly, you didn't say a word about my behavior yesterday until I started attacking you. And you keep trying to make obliqe references to the bandwagon yesterday in order to defend yourself here, which is odd, since the way I'm acting today (IE: just pushing for your lynch and not joining the wagon) is the way you're attacking me for NOT acting yesteday.

First, I am not going to go through 670 something posts just to prove how quickly you jumped to Capri and how you did nothing except ask for a defense or explanation. Second, yes if you thought I was a scummier canidate yesterday you should have fought harder. Third. You never really attacked me until now. before this you have been nipping at me and putting out vague comments to try to get people to look my way. "snitch makes vague comments" anyone else think snitch is scummy" and so on. thus letting others make the jump instead of you. this toi me is scummy.

Again I'm arguing your actual case on me. All you have said is that I give off scumminess.

That's not "all I have said". And no, you're not arguring against my case on you, you're trying to confuse the issue of the wagon on you with the the issue of the Capi wagon yesterday.

there is no wagon on me. you are the only one who wants a wagon on me right now. As for yesterday your voting actions proved your fickleness on the capri lynch.

Convince you someone else is scummy so you can move to their case? Why so you can use someone else's accusations to get another townie lynched?

Look, we're going to lynch someone today. Right now, I'm pretty sure it should be you. If you want to change my mind, athen you need to either convince me I'm wrong about you, or convince me that someone else is a better lynch for today then you are. That's how mafia works.

I am defending myself right now and I cannot convince you I am wrong because you already think I am scum. Besides your bias will twist any defense I make into a scum tell of some sorts.

And by the way, why are you assuming that whoever you'd make a case against would be a "townie"?

that was not the point of my comment. the point which you so plesantly missed on was that you are trying to get other people to make the accusations and then you can piggyback on their votes. which is why you have not out right attacked me. you have been trying to get other to do the job. Just like Sir T who was voting me because of Mizzy's day 1 attack on me you are doing the same.

You have been accusing me but not accusing me all game.

Accusing you but not accusing you? No, I'm pretty much just accusing you. Here, watch:

YOU ARE SCUM. SCUM SCUM SCUM. DIE SCUM DIE.

There, you see? This is me accusing you.

again you missed my point. you have been calling me scummy all game but have not done anything about it up until now

You have been trying to get others to come up with a case on me so you can piggy back.

No, I'm trying to get other people to follow me so we can lynch a scum. Not really sure what you mean about "trying to get others to come up with a case on you". I think I've already given got more then enough reason to lynch you, I don't really need anyone else to make a case against you.

this makes no sense if you dont need anyone else to bring up a case on me then you have enough to get me lynched.... well so far all you have done is responded to my post. you have not actually presented a case. And what you will do next is rip this post apart and mis interpret it and there you have your attack. and all of this done with out actually posting any kind of accusations. Piggybacking.

Yet in two whole days you have not actually come up with a case on me that would sway the other townies onto your deadline bandwagon.

Vote: Yosarian2

So, you're voting me beacuse I haven't suceeded in lynching you yet?



Also note the possible slip there with that "other" townies comment. I guess you already know I'm pro-town, right?

no when i reference the other townies fellow townies or town in any of my posts I am referencing them in a positive pro town with me included way. When I said other townies I meant myself and the others. or being as you were trying to get them to attack me I just said the others. Not including you.... completely excluding you from the town.

For trying to get others to make cases so you can join your deadline bandwagon guilt free. (for reference see Capri's lynch)

Uh, everyone should be making cases now, yeah. But I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "guilt free"; today, I think we need to lynch you, and I'm becoming more and more convinced you're going to come up scum so I'm not really worried about "guilt".

Guilt free: Meaning that you were trying to get others to present the case on me so you could agree and lynch. Once I turn up town then you can accuse the one who made the original case and get away guilt free. Like the case on capri. you were on that wagon and did nothing to convince the town that I was scum then. I'm sure if Mizzy, Skruffs, or Eld had a few votes on them you would make the hop again

[Y]

I am questioning how you came to the conclusion, insinuation or otherwise, that I am "convinced" that they are not scum. I said my suspicions of them for clearing each other day one were allieved. That doesn't mean a dang thing about their alignment.

You were saying that you suspect Zindy and Mizzy for buddying up with each other, so when you said you weren't thinking so any more, I were under the impression they no longer look scummy to you. Was there any other accusation against any of them that wasn't "allieved"?

Why does this not apply to Zindaras and me, as well? Would you say that Zindaras is not baiting me, like you have admitted to doing, into saying stupid stuff that he can discredit later on without putting himself at risk?

Unless I missed it, you and Zindaras don't really know each other. I know that if a friend of mine was playing this game, I would know how to annoy him, make him respond in specific ways or could foresee his reactions. That doesn't apply in this case.
Furthermore, when did I admit I was baiting you? I never said such a thing. Saying that once you got them talking we might get new info, or that they might slip up, could be a good answer which wouldn't be neither WIFOM, nor would make you look like an idiot. You're getting my posts out of their context and than use them as if they were complete proof for your absurd accusations.

Guilt free: Meaning that you were trying to get others to present the case on me so you could agree and lynch. Once I turn up town then you can accuse the one who made the original case and get away guilt free.

I'd say he made too much noise about you to be able to actually make it happen.

[Rotten Snitch]

Y - I agree he is now making too much noise --
What I find the scummiest is that he is not really making a case- he is waiting for me to explain myself and then he is nitpicking my attack to make his case on me.

[Mizzy]

I'm home, reading over what I missed ASAP!

[Zindaras]

Y: Skruffs and I go quite a while back. Lots of interaction. His accusation of me baiting him is completely ridiculous, however. I'm not the kind of guy who pisses people off just because he feels like it. The fact that he's actually blaming me for the stupid stuff he's done is just...mind-boggling.

[hasdgfas]

welcome back, Mizzy.

[eldarad]

I'm currently re-reading Day 2, I've just got to the end of page 21. So I've still got some way to go...

[Yosarian2]

I have made a case, Rotton Snitch. I think the way you behaved around the Capi wagon yesterday, supporting it in wishy washy terms but not joining it, is just the way I would expect a scum in your position to act. And, to top it off, after you tried to push that wagon without being on it, now you're attacking me for being on it. It's pretty much a textbook example of scum behavior.

Also, you've done very little all game that looks designed to help the town, you've mostly only acted in response to being attacked yoursef. Everything you've done all game feels off-kilter and self serving. Frankly, that'd be more then enough reason already for me to want to lynch you, is just the vibe I'm getting from your posts in general

And rather then respond to my accusations against you, you OMGUS attack me instead, and continue to ignore what I've said and pretend that I'm attacking you for no reason. I've explained why I voted for Capi yesterday, and you keep either misrepresenting or ignoring everything I've said. And yet, you never had a problem with my attsck on or my vote for Capi yesterday, and you didn't have a problem with it today, UNTIL I started attacking you in earnest, at which point you apparently started looking for something to attack me with. Again, that's the way a scum acts; a mafia member dosn't care about finding scum, obveously, but he needs to look like he's trying to find scum, so instead of actually looking for scum a mafia member often tries to get people lynched who look like a threat to him; or if he can't get them lynched, he tries to discredit them. And again, even besides that, the way you've tried to defend yourself feels scummy; instead of responding to my points, you ignore them, try to confuse the issue, and pretend I haven't made any point, and try to attack me in any way you can think of.

The thing you seem to not be getting is that the reason I wanted Capi to defend himself was so I could figure out his alignment. You can tell a lot about someone's alignment based on how they defend themselves. And right now, your defense feels like that of a scum who knows I'm right and so is trying to do everything but answer the valid points I have raised against him.

You have not done one single thing yet this game that feels pro-town to me. Nothing you've done looks or feels like a real attempt to find scum. You're very when under attack but when you're not under attack you're quiet. Basically, you act like I normally expect mafia members to act.

[Yosarian2]

Second to last sentance should have read "You're very active when under attack..."

[Mizzy]

Mizzy - Zindy - Skruffs if there was Day talk going on it would be with more active players to be completely effective I think. These three have been the most talkative throughout the whole game.

I applaud your effort at logic here, but honestly, it missed the mark. Just because someone is active ingame does not mean they are active elsewhere, and if you were to check my posting history in other games, you would see that I am very active everywhere with my posting. Good try, though.

[Mizzy]

Thanks for all the congrats and such, all! I have read up til here and between sleep and frequent critter-feedings, I will go back and re-read Skruffs and RS and see if I can formulate a less middle-of-the-road opinion.

[Zindaras]

Rotten Snitch: I want you to make a list of every player in the game and give your opinion on them. A few lines per player at least. No "I haven't read enough on them" or "I have no opinion".

[Skruffs]

Zindaras: So is it a completely Black and White situation? Either I believe you or I don't? And in either case you are innocent and I am scum?

I'm flat-out innocent, and the jury is still out on you. I would've voted you if it wasn't.

This is in reference to this:

That's bullshit. Either you believe me, in which case I've proven enough, or you don't, in which case I'm scum for it and you need to continue your crusade. You're backing out.

You don't respond to my posts because, well, I've proven all your arguments to be crap and you have nothing to say anymore, and you're just bluffing and trying to make yourself look like you've still got a case.

You had previously blanket statemented saying that hte two of you didn't treat each other as cleared day one, even though, in my perspective, you did. You both tried to refute my statements, not by proving me wrong by scrutinizing each other, but instead by attacking the logic I used to build the case. Then you said you 'proved' you weren't doing that - when all you really did was criticize the way I built a case against you. Different things.
If you are trying to say that you didn't attack me (because you used one sentence to respond to an entire paragraph of allegations, so I don't know which or all of them you were responding to), that's not true. You both focused on my 'lack of logic' a good deal through the game, which I think is a scum tell. Zindaras, you and me have played in quite a few games. You know how I play. You, of everyone here, should know that I have a pattern that I Follow to reach my own conclusions. You know that I stir up shit and that sometimes the shit I stir up winds up getting scum lynched.

So for you to spend so much time, both day one, and day two, heckling and criticizing me, to the point of only posting about me for several days and NOT other people - that, to me, is (yet another) scum tell. *YOU* know better. You even CLAIM to know better. But instead you say things like "SKruffs makes me a sad kitty." What is the point of saying "SKruffs makes me a sad kitty"? IT keeps my attention focused on you, first of all, it adds nothing to the game, and it gives you ammunition, if I go off on it, to further discredit me.

And let's be honest here, you seem to have a vested interest in discreditting me. RAther than formulating your own cases, you have spent nearly every post criticizing mine. WHich is, I think, a scum tell. MAYBE it's not a scum tell to try to keep the game focused on the player that doesn't make any sense - it keeps pepole from analyzing each other - which btw is what the nonsensical skruffs is acussing you of ttrying ot do in the first place.

Moving on...

Anything between "believe" and "not believe" still requires explanation. You choose to ignore a

very

significant line of posts. You can agree, you can not agree, you can even do something in between,

but a response is required

. At the very least because I've asked you direct questions.

I don't know if you are referring to the 'We disproved you so nyah" post or the very post you are acussing me of not responding you into, but I think I've responded aptly to all of your posts, Zindaras. Please show me where I didn't.

The reason I ask is because you've asked for PROOF before, as has Mizzy, and I don't like it when people demand proof from townies. Absolute proof is impossible without outside information,w hich only scum and power roles have in this game. The information we do have, as town, is derived from the behaviors, both intentional (voting) and unintentional (responses towards each other)

Bullcrap. At no point have you been asked to provide absolute proof. We have simply requested that you explain on what basis you are making the attacks.

Doesn't PROOF = Factual evidence? What kind of proof are you looking for that does not involve some sort of role claim?
And when did I not explain the basis? I am pretty sure I've been under a shit fire for having insane, nonsensical basises behind my allegations at every step of the way? Apparently, those were just point-blank accusations against me and now I never even had my basis for suspicions lined out in the first place?
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HERE?

Again.

I. Have. Asked. You. A. Direct. Question. Pertaining. To. This.

Respond. Or. I. Will. Vote. You.

Please.
Repeat.
The.
Question.

Do I have to do it syllable-wise next time, or has this finally gotten through your cement skull?

S TEH STEWPID ONE

As ridiculous as my technique seems to be for some people (Zindaras is really hardballing me in this game for it) IT's still a technique that *I* use to figure out what is going on.

I am on your case because you're pulling crap from thin air rather than building a normal case. I'm on your case because you use scum methods. I'm on your case because you're not playing like I'm used to you playing.

How are you used to me playing?
Where am I supposed to be pulling "crap" from? My ass? Wouldn't that have been a much better metaphor to be using, Zindaras?
When you have nothing to start off with, you start by MAKING something happen, and then you go from there.
Unlike Mizzy, who wanted to keep the game in random stage as long into a two-week deadline as was possible (and yes, I've brough tt his up before and it has been responded to, I just can't help but notice that you would rather attack the person who is trying to help rathe rhtan the person who doens't want ANYONE to help).

Zindaras: Can you please show me an example of building a good case on someone day one or day two? You can refer me to another game, if you want, one that has already ended. Just show me how someone started off day one with an awesome case that led directly to scum being lynched, and then I will say, "OKay, this is what Zindaras and MIzzy and Y are looking from me, this is why they are being rude to me and making me want to not even sign into mafiascum, because my cases are not up to par with this case."

IF you can't do that, EASILY, because apparently it's a very easy thing you are bruntly asking from me, then, back off and start making your own oipoinions rather than trying to inflame an easy target to the point that you think you can get an easy lynch on them.
You're reminding me of Battle Mage, in pretty much every game he was scum in.

Mizzy - Zindy - Skruffs if there was Day talk going on it would be with more active players to be completely effective I think. These three have been the most talkative throughout the whole game.

So, because daytalk would have the most use for a Zin-Miz-Skruffs group, they're scum?

What's next? Yosarian is scum because he's the most cunning manipulator?

What is the point of this? You're ridiculing another player and offering no suggestions of your own.

YOU ARE BEING AN ASSWAD, ZINDARAS.

The correct response, the HELPFUL response, would be,
"Actually Rotten SNitch, I believe that it is more likely that there is one or two scum players that are communicating with one vocal player, in order to get all their opinions out. Hopefully that is the case, and when that vocal player is outed, they will be forced to be more vocal themselves - leading to a distinctive change in their posting behavior!"

Of course, that would be helpful, and you're focusing on being smug. So. Can't hold that against you.

Zindaras - why were you attacking Andycaca for attacking the people who were not voting (And thus trying to get a no lynch) at the end of yesterday?

Where? Quote or link.

With pleasure:

I've already posted today. So it's still 4/6.

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch)

I want all three of the people quoted above answer the following:

1) Why aren't you voting for anyone?
2) Why are you opposed to a Capricious lynch?
3) How do you envisage this day ending?
4) How are you contributing to that?

And to add to the whole ultimatum vibe of this post, I'm not posting again in-thread Today until at least one of those people have answered all four questions.

If you want a Capri-lynch so badly, why are you focusing on these three people? Except for question 1, all of these questions could be asked of the others.

My bad, I apologize, I remembered it being Andycaca, but it was eldarad. That wasn't an intentional mistake, obviously, because it's just going to give you a way to say "Skruffs is teh stupid" and avoid the question.

Question though: Who's wagon were you pushing at deadline, since you didn't want Capricious lynched? Were you pushing a wagon?

So which of your scum buddies told you about my post? The only other player who's SN I know that is online is Yosarian2.

Oh, and yeah, after that, we sat down with the rest of our scumteam, consisting of Andycyca, Y and Mizzy, and played a nice game of Scrabble.

Unfortunately, Y was a bad loser, so he killed Mizzy after she won, which is why she's now gone (I hacked her account and came up with some lame excuse about labour so nobody would suspect us).

I'm sorry, buddies, but Skruffs's expert interrogation has made me crack under the mounting pressure.

Haha, oh, you're so funny Zindaras. ^.^

How many of your posts are bascially saying that I suck, that you don't like me, that you recruited me, that I am alive and so mst be scum, that I don't make sense, that my logic is flawed, etc - and how many of them are actually positing original views on the game? And would you like to answer my question from before?

Yeah, and now that we're done referring to the random phase, let's start discussing the game. Oh, wait, you don't want to do that. You've been on my ass for ages, and the moment that I actually take the time to rebut your case, you drop everything. Why? You're scared. You're pooping your pants because you know that any further forays into Piss-Zindie-off-land is going to land you my vote. And, quite frankly, there is

no

reason for a Townie to behave in that way.

I've been playing hte game sinec day one, Zindaras. I , as town, don't believe in random stages. I think it's just another thing that scum can hide behind to waste time and use to get a feel for the various town roles. While you were busy heckling me in random stage, I was looking at the game, posting cases, and taking shit from, well, now over half of the game players. I've got you saying I was town, day one, and now voting me. I got Mizzy saying I was probably town day one - but I wouldn't be surprised if she started voting me, too. She's not, yet, so I can't saying anything, but I won't be surprised. I have the growing angst of knowing that after I am dead, just like in other games where I might have had a good lead or two, everything I Said will be ignored and town will continue to botch things up.


But yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed your random stage. Apparently random stage for you, extended until Monday:

Skruffs makes me a sad kitty.

Well, when you are ready to join the grown ups, and, I dunno, get your feet dirty by actually scum hunting rather than spending your time pretending to be a rock star and just mocking everyone else, feel free to let me know.

[Skruffs]

I am questioning how you came to the conclusion, insinuation or otherwise, that I am "convinced" that they are not scum. I said my suspicions of them for clearing each other day one were allieved. That doesn't mean a dang thing about their alignment.

You were saying that you suspect Zindy and Mizzy for buddying up with each other, so when you said you weren't thinking so any more, I were under the impression they no longer look scummy to you. Was there any other accusation against any of them that wasn't "allieved"?

I said that Zindaras at least paying lip service to the idea that they really weren't buddying up to each other - he asked her a single question, after all - greatly relieved my suspicions of the fact that before then, they were basically day one kersnoggling with each other. You're really pushing this conclusion, trying to get me to say something, and I am not sure what it is.

Why are you so invested in figuring out what I Think of Mizzy/Zindaras?

Why does this not apply to Zindaras and me, as well? Would you say that Zindaras is not baiting me, like you have admitted to doing, into saying stupid stuff that he can discredit later on without putting himself at risk?

Unless I missed it, you and Zindaras don't really know each other. I know that if a friend of mine was playing this game, I would know how to annoy him, make him respond in specific ways or could foresee his reactions. That doesn't apply in this case.

Yes, it does. You've missed a lot, apparently, because, well, as was repeatedly said in many games, me and Zindaras get a good feel for each other. I've said he's playing like Zindaras scum, he's said I'm playing like SKkruffs town. And now he's voting me, again. So, please reformat that answer with the new knowledge and answer the questoin again:

Why does this not apply to Zindaras and me, as well? Would you say that Zindaras is not baiting me, like you have admitted to doing?

Furthermore, when did I admit I was baiting you?

Sure:

I anticipated a WIFOM response, but I wanted to hear what you say. I actually do try to hear what people have to say before I lynch them.

You said you wanted a WIFOM response from me so you asked a question that you would yhope I would get a WIFOMy answer to. Apparently, if I had answered WIFOMy, the bait would have worked, the trap would have been sprung, and I Would be being voted by you right now. You aren't voting me, so apparently I didn't take the bait.

For the record, most of your attacks on me throughout the entire game is because they are 'baseless' and/or you can't see the reasoning for them. You said that I Am weird/irrelevant but that I was also flying under the radar and trying to set up future lynches. You don't see the connection between my logic and reality, but at least you are acknowledging that my logic is my own; that I'm at least speaking my own mind, which is something that some players, and some roles (scum), like to avoid.

I never said such a thing. Saying that once you got them talking we might get new info, or that they might slip up, could be a good answer which wouldn't be neither WIFOM, nor would make you look like an idiot. You're getting my posts out of their context and than use them as if they were complete proof for your absurd accusations.

What is your point here: IF you already knew the answer to your question, then you had no reason to ask it of me, except maybe to bait me.

Right?

What I mean is, you are saying I am taking your posts out of their context; however, your 'context' is that you are trying to get me lynched, in a subtle matter. You've already admitted that. You asked a question hoping I would answer in a way that would allow you to guiltlessly place a vote on me. I don't think I am taking your post out of context in saying that. I Think, what you mean by 'taking out of context', is that I am reading between the lines of what you are actually saying, and, what I am seeing is my perspective of WHY you are saying it.

[Y]

Doesn't PROOF = Factual evidence? What kind of proof are you looking for that does not involve some sort of role claim?

This was a responce to this:

Bullcrap. At no point have you been asked to provide absolute proof.

Care to explain?

Can you please show me an example of building a good case on someone day one or day two? You can refer me to another game, if you want, one that has already ended. Just show me how someone started off day one with an awesome case that led directly to scum being lynched, and then I will say, "OKay, this is what Zindaras and MIzzy and Y are looking from me, this is why they are being rude to me and making me want to not even sign into mafiascum, because my cases are not up to par with this case."

You want an example? Here's one. Don't say it can't be done. Buy the way, he was lynched for the same thing I'm accusing you - Making accusation that are not really related to game and for misrepresenting other people's cases.

Why are you so invested in figuring out what I Think of Mizzy/Zindaras?

Why? Because I see no case in your biggest accusation of the two. I think you're trying to accuse two people without real reason. Since getting more townies lynched is good for mafia, and that is what I thing you're trying to do, I'm really invested in figuring out what you think of Mizzy/Zindaras.

Yes, it does. You've missed a lot, apparently, because, well, as was repeatedly said in many games, me and Zindaras get a good feel for each other. I've said he's playing like Zindaras scum, he's said I'm playing like SKkruffs town. And now he's voting me, again.

And I should know it how? I wasn't in those games and haven't read them. I'm not really following you around, you know.

So, please reformat that answer with the new knowledge and answer the questoin again:

Why does this not apply to Zindaras and me, as well? Would you say that Zindaras is not baiting me, like you have admitted to doing?

Since that question is based on a comment made with lacking information, now that it is known, the question is irrelevant (And so you won't completely make a mess of this post: What I mean is that I would not ignore the connection between you two if I knew about it).

I anticipated a WIFOM response, but I wanted to hear what you say. I actually do try to hear what people have to say before I lynch them.

You said you wanted a WIFOM response from me so you asked a question that you would yhope I would get a WIFOMy answer to. Apparently, if I had answered WIFOMy, the bait would have worked, the trap would have been sprung, and I Would be being voted by you right now. You aren't voting me, so apparently I didn't take the bait.

I don't know where you're from, but even though I'm not an English speaker by birth, I do know the difference between "Wanting" and "Anticipating".
While the first means "I wish such would happen", the second one means "According to my knowledge, this is the most probable option".
While I said that I thought you would answer in a WIFOM way, I wanted to give you the chance not to (I usually don't accuse people based on my assumptions on what they're going to do, but on their doings). You decided to make it look like I was trying to get you to make a mistake.
And for the record, I've been voting you from page 25 (Post# 623), before this absurd "Baiting" accusation.

For the record, most of your attacks on me throughout the entire game is because they are 'baseless' and/or you can't see the reasoning for them. You said that I Am weird/irrelevant but that I was also flying under the radar and trying to set up future lynches. You don't see the connection between my logic and reality, but at least you are acknowledging that my logic is my own; that I'm at least speaking my own mind, which is something that some players, and some roles (scum), like to avoid.

Having your own logic says nothing to me. I use my own logic as town or scum alike. Using your own logic, or following other people depends mostly on the player, not the role.

IF you already knew the answer to your question, then you had no reason to ask it of me, except maybe to bait me.

Here's what you don't get:

I did not know the answer!

I could guess what it'll be, but knowing? Psychic course is next semester. I would not ask a question, unless I really want to see the answer.
And for you to really leave it alone, if I wanted to bait you, the question would be "So now you'll say they're attacking each other because of your accusations, right?". Then I could call it WIFOM, no matter what's your answer.

What I mean is, you are saying I am taking your posts out of their context

Right. And there's at least one example in your last post (As noted in this post).

I'll show you:

however, your 'context' is that you are trying to get me lynched,

in a subtle matter

(I'm trying to get you lynched in a completely blunt way)

.

You've already admitted that

(Admitted, yes. What you're referring to? No)

.

You asked a question hoping I would answer in a way that would allow you to guiltlessly place a vote on me

(I proved it wrong, again, in this post)

.

I'll ask you again: Please try to actually understand what I'm saying before you make up cases. At least you won't blow your cover out.

[Rotten Snitch]

I can’t Zindy I haven’t read enough lol

Rotten Snitch: I want you to make a list of every player in the game and give your opinion on them. A few lines per player at least. No "I haven't read enough on them" or "I have no opinion".

Ok some of my views.
Skruffs: He is the hardest for me to get a read on right now. I know him in real life and he is playing just the way I know him. I have never played a forum game with him before so I do not really know how to read him. A lot of his posts seem to me a little scummy but then when he finally gets around to his point sometimes he makes a convincing case. I am trying to keep my distance on him because I really don’t know his style and I am 50-50 on his posts. If he was right here in front of me playing a meat world game I would have probably voted him but I am still undecided yet. He seems to be ignoring me and I don’t know why.

Eldarad: So far I get a town read on him. His posts have been pretty on topic and when he does make an accusation he will have original content and does not seem to be following any other speculations. I would not put a vote on him unless he give me a real scummy reason to do so.

Mizzy: I do not know if she is scum or not. I have already said that the amount of posts does make it annoying to wade through to get to the meat of the conversation. It seems as though she has a retort to just about everyone who posts even if it doesn’t concern her. This is just the feeling and not actual. I think she may be either town trying to get a grasp on anything scummy or she is scum trying to clog the thread with constant posts which make it hard (at least for me) to actually pin her to something and give her the required proof in post number or actual quotes (too lazy to read through 700 posts again) I am leaning towards scum only because the constant bickering between her and Skruffs. One of them in my opinion must be scum or both.

Yosarian2: I think I have already presented my case about Yos and right now I do think he is very scummy. He counters accusing me of an OMGUS vote. He has been voting me all game and making snips to get the attention back on me. I have noticed this since the beginning of day two when he dropped his vote on me again. He has been climbing up my scum ladder ever since my idea about the Skruffs Mizzy Zindy possibilities and now that I have voted him he comes in and calls me out for OMGUS. Basically saying that I would not be allowed to ever vote him because it would be an OMGUS vote as long as he was accusing me.

Zindy: What I notice the most about you is your early voting. Or lack of voting. I noticed that all day 1 and so far all of day 2, in your battles with Skruffs you have yet to vote him. Mizzy has been on him since day 1 but not you. He has accused you of just about everything including past games but yet you still do not find anything scummy in his attempts to hang you. Maybe you don’t find him scummy at all maybe you can tell me why your vote has never graced his name?

Y: I get a mixed feeling from Y, some of his posts are legitimate and I agree with some of his suspicions of Skruffs. But I do not know or cannot say for certain his alignment. I get a townish feel from him though

HasadasdgASFasfasdf: I know you don’t want me to say I don’t know but I really don’t on hashasdahsd. There have been some good posts from him and he has participated more than I have this game. I will say that he gives off a town vibe to me just by his posting and I doubt I would vote him unless a damning enough case was brought up.

Andy: I do not know what to say about Andy. I have nothing. I am almost going to say Lynch all lurkers on his case. He has less posts than the Mod. I have been called out for inactivity but I have twice as many posts as he does. I am either thinking he is intentionally doing it or maybe he just cant get into the game? I do not know. I got a scummy vibe from him earlier in day one but was called out for OMGUS on him as well. I guess that is my thing though I must be good at OMGUS but now I see his lurking or inactivity as the most unhelpful townie right now. Or he is scum but I do not know. Most of his posts do not really indicate much scum hunting with the exception of his voting on me day 1. Oh yeah I cant forget his hammer of Capri. I guess at the time it did not seem as bad because we were stuck in a deadline rut and everyone was posting to keep the deadline going. He either hammered as scum to get rid of a known townie or he hammered to end the day one misery to prevent a no lynch situation. I do not know there is not enough information on him to go on.

I think for now though to maybe get him talking and back into the game I will

FoS: Yos

Unvote: Vote: Andycaca

[Skruffs]

Doesn't PROOF = Factual evidence? What kind of proof are you looking for that does not involve some sort of role claim?

This was a responce to this:

Bullcrap. At no point have you been asked to provide absolute proof.

Care to explain?

What level of PROOF does not involve EVIDENCE?
I don' tknow how else to rephrase the question.

Can you please show me an example of building a good case on someone day one or day two? You can refer me to another game, if you want, one that has already ended. Just show me how someone started off day one with an awesome case that led directly to scum being lynched, and then I will say, "OKay, this is what Zindaras and MIzzy and Y are looking from me, this is why they are being rude to me and making me want to not even sign into mafiascum, because my cases are not up to par with this case."

You want an example? Here's one. Don't say it can't be done. Buy the way, he was lynched for the same thing I'm accusing you - Making accusation that are not really related to game and for misrepresenting other people's cases.

From what I see, the wagon on Ryan started because of someone starting a wagon on someone else. This involved mutliple players interacting with each other, and with Ryan, which began to fritter away at Ryan's defenses, until people started paying attention to him. I do not see anywhere in there where one person started a direct case against him - but I didn't read all the way through. What I am advocating is that players who do not interact with each other, wether intentionally or not, might have a reason not to. I am advocating hte very style of play that (appears) to be led to Ryan being lynched day one. The case that was built on him was built due to him and other players interacting. There was no "proof" levelled against him, as far as I can tell. Thank you for helping to prove my point.

Why are you so invested in figuring out what I Think of Mizzy/Zindaras?

Why? Because I see no case in your biggest accusation of the two. I think you're trying to accuse two people without real reason. Since getting more townies lynched is good for mafia, and that is what I thing you're trying to do, I'm really invested in figuring out what you think of Mizzy/Zindaras.

Well,

thank you for clearing Mizzy and Zindaras

. I do not have the information that you have that the two of them are cleared. I also did not see why the two of them would so early on make such risky moves as to defend each other as pro town on day one, as town. A lack of suspicion towards each other, in my eyes, day one, is a telling sign.
The other thing you forgot to mention, Y, is that townies WANT to lynch Mafia. Only there's this whole "uninformed majority" thing, wherein the townies do not know who each other are. So they try to figure out who scum are.

Tell me why you think Mizzy/Zindaras are townies enough to be suspicious of me for being suspicious of them.

Yes, it does. You've missed a lot, apparently, because, well, as was repeatedly said in many games, me and Zindaras get a good feel for each other. I've said he's playing like Zindaras scum, he's said I'm playing like SKkruffs town. And now he's voting me, again.

And I should know it how? I wasn't in those games and haven't read them. I'm not really following you around, you know.

But you went to the trouble to make the assumption of the contrary, despite the REPEATED in game acknowledgments from both me AND Zindaras that we have played in multiple games. Either you missed all of those posts - and Zindaras's big post about every single game that me and him have been in, including games where he died before I even replaced in was hard to miss - or you somehow benefited by pretending that they don't exist.

Which is it? Are you ignorant or are you intentionally misleading?

So, please reformat that answer with the new knowledge and answer the questoin again:

Why does this not apply to Zindaras and me, as well? Would you say that Zindaras is not baiting me, like you have admitted to doing?

Since that question is based on a comment made with lacking information, now that it is known, the question is irrelevant (And so you won't completely make a mess of this post: What I mean is that I would not ignore the connection between you two if I knew about it).

So the answer to your question is what: You seem to be intentionally avoiding the question now that the situation isn't what you thought it was.

If I am reading it correctly, you are implying that it is irrelevant if Zindaras is baiting me or not. Why?

Why does it not matter that both you and Zindaras might be baiting me in the attempts to get a lynch?

If I am 'not making sense' with my translation of your backtracking on the answer, please respond in a way that makes your position known in regards to Zindaras and Mizzy. Since you are interested in knowing what I feel about them, I think it is unusual that you are intentionally trying not to respond to what Zindaras thinks of me. And it's hard for me to look at your convulted non-answer and say that you are not backtracking, but because I have a history of being weird and irrelevant, I Am giving you the chance to better explain yourself.

I anticipated a WIFOM response, but I wanted to hear what you say. I actually do try to hear what people have to say before I lynch them.

You said you wanted a WIFOM response from me so you asked a question that you would yhope I would get a WIFOMy answer to. Apparently, if I had answered WIFOMy, the bait would have worked, the trap would have been sprung, and I Would be being voted by you right now. You aren't voting me, so apparently I didn't take the bait.

I don't know where you're from, but even though I'm not an English speaker by birth, I do know the difference between "Wanting" and "Anticipating".
While the first means "I wish such would happen", the second one means "According to my knowledge, this is the most probable option".
While I said that I thought you would answer in a WIFOM way, I wanted to give you the chance not to (I usually don't accuse people based on my assumptions on what they're going to do, but on their doings). You decided to make it look like I was trying to get you to make a mistake.
And for the record, I've been voting you from page 25 (Post# 623), before this absurd "Baiting" accusation.

Expecting/Wanting: Whatever. You were hoping I would give a response that you could lynch me on. You have given me no reason to think that the question you asked was in any way designed to help make me look more town; you asked a question that you ANTICIPATED I would answer in a way that you could feel justified lynching me for. You are not 'investigating', you are attempting to 'condemn'.

For the record, most of your attacks on me throughout the entire game is because they are 'baseless' and/or you can't see the reasoning for them. You said that I Am weird/irrelevant but that I was also flying under the radar and trying to set up future lynches. You don't see the connection between my logic and reality, but at least you are acknowledging that my logic is my own; that I'm at least speaking my own mind, which is something that some players, and some roles (scum), like to avoid.

Having your own logic says nothing to me. I use my own logic as town or scum alike. Using your own logic, or following other people depends mostly on the player, not the role.

But apparently it does, because you seem to be trying to judge my logic and use it as a reason to vote me. Or are you not trying to do that?
Are you voting me for following someone else?
Are you accusing me of not using my own logic to come to conclusions about people? If so, and as scum, wouldn't it be better to follow other people rather than drawing so much attention to myself? I know that's a WIFOM question to ask, but you seem to be trying to lynch me for being unhelpful town, rather than for being scum, and I am going to make sure that your reasons are out in the open for everyone to see.

IF you already knew the answer to your question, then you had no reason to ask it of me, except maybe to bait me.

Here's what you don't get:

I did not know the answer!

I could guess what it'll be, but knowing? Psychic course is next semester. I would not ask a question, unless I really want to see the answer.
And for you to really leave it alone, if I wanted to bait you, the question would be "So now you'll say they're attacking each other because of your accusations, right?". Then I could call it WIFOM, no matter what's your answer.

However, what I am saying is not that you didn't know the answer, it was that you were asking a question that you did not care what the answer was; you expected/anticipated that my response would be WIFOMy, which would allow you to lynch me. You said so yourself. Now that you have seen the answer, and it was not what you expected, you have been struggling to find a way to ignore it to continue thinking the same way about me. So what was the point of the question?

What I mean is, you are saying I am taking your posts out of their context

Right. And there's at least one example in your last post (As noted in this post).

I'll show you:

however, your 'context' is that you are trying to get me lynched,

in a subtle matter

(I'm trying to get you lynched in a completely blunt way)

.

You've already admitted that

(Admitted, yes. What you're referring to? No)

.

You asked a question hoping I would answer in a way that would allow you to guiltlessly place a vote on me

(I proved it wrong, again, in this post)

.

I'll ask you again: Please try to actually understand what I'm saying before you make up cases. At least you won't blow your cover out.

This quote does not mean anything unless you actually go through and show how I took you out of context. Otherwise, I could take any part of your statements and say you are taking me out of context, too.

You said you wanted a WIFOM response from me before you lynched me.

You were voting me before you asked the questoin, and despite my response being not what you expected, you are still voting me. How am I taking what you said out of context, in regards to how what you have said relays to what your actions and what else you have said are?

You *ARE* trying to lynch me, you are using null-tells for your reason, and you are trying to bait me so that when I turn up town, you will have a defense to fall back on.

You have said that Scum tries to get townies lynched, and that I am trying to get Mizzy and Zindaras lynched, and so I must be scum.
But there is no reason for YOU to think that they are townies, unless, of coures, you are scum, which is the reason I was attacking Mizzy and Zindaras day one: for treating each other like townies.

Zindaras started off the game being an ass to me and he will continue to be until I am dead. He knows I am town, has said so, but he is trying to find a way to get me lynched anyways. When I am lynched and turn up town, I would heartily recommend, and I know this won't happen because Zindaras has spent so much time in this game just trying to discredit me, that Zindaras is lynched as well. I know that because everyone loves Zindaras, that trying to get him lynched, post deadline, is going to only hurt my reputation with the player group. To be honest, this game is reminding me a GOOD DEAL of Calvin & Hobbes, and I'm not going to mind when I get lynched or nightkilled.

Second place would be Y. I really don't like the backtracking he is trying to do in regards to Zindaras, as explained earlier.


I didn't like Andycaca yesterday, between him and Capricious, but to be honest I have been too focussed on Mizzy, Zindaras, and Y to really spend any energy on looking at the Yosarian/Rotten Snitch thing or anyone else.

Sorry.

[Skruffs]

Also: Again, I think Rotten Snitch was highlighted in my scum book as being potentially scum with strappado7's death int he beginning of the game: he and her know each other and he may have felt guilty or unable to lie to her in meatworld and so knocked her off, early.

If she was a jailkeeper,t hough, she probably would have targetted him or me, so if RS is scum, he probably got a buddy to target her.

This is also compounded, as I explained earlier, by the discussion that was had in scum chat about who the two of them were, so her death could have been used to frame RS. I listed way in the beginning of the game who I thought would have known about that and why.

Yes, this entire post is based on Meta and WIFOM. I'm not telling anyone to take it seriously, it is my own information about stuff that may have affected the game. It's out there, do whatever you want with it.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2: I think I have already presented my case about Yos and right now I do think he is very scummy. He counters accusing me of an OMGUS vote. He has been voting me all game and making snips to get the attention back on me. I have noticed this since the beginning of day two when he dropped his vote on me again. He has been climbing up my scum ladder ever since my idea about the Skruffs Mizzy Zindy possibilities and now that I have voted him he comes in and calls me out for OMGUS. Basically saying that I would not be allowed to ever vote him because it would be an OMGUS vote as long as he was accusing me.

Your vote against me looks like OMGUS, because you seem to have been very intentionally voting for me and attacking me INSTEAD OF responding to my case against you. You are trying to attack me in order to avoid having to defend yourself. That's what makes it an OMGUS attack, and that's very, very scummy.

And no, you really haven't given any kind of case against me that makes sense. You keep making vauge and incorrect statements about my motives during the Capi lynch without explaining why you're attributing those motives to me, you ignore about 75% of the statements I make (I assume because you know I'm right and can't respond to them), but the key thing is that if you found my Capi vote scummy, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID SO AT THE TIME. At the time, you seemed to be totally in favor of people voting Capi; you only tried to attack me for that after I started seriously attacking you today, and from all appearences, because I started seriously attacking you today.

I really need some other people to explain why they're not voting for RS here, because he seems so incredibly obv scum to me, I don't understand why I'm the only guy voting for him.

[Rotten Snitch]

Skruffs the fact that she was outside my doorstep meant I could not have done anything to her. If in fact the Gaoler or jailkeeper as you say was a role blocking power role. For me to have assumed she would target me is a little too much of a WIFOM stretch. To have another Scum target her knowing she would target me? Is that what you have going on me?

The fact that she was possibly blocking me proves I had nothing to do with her death.

This brings me 360 back to my original comment to you

"gaoler - someone who guards prisoners" - the Free Online Dictionary. It also indicates 'law officer', but I am guessing that Gaoler meant 'jailkeeper'. That's unfortunate.

....... How unfortunate was her death to you?
Again my WIFOM argument stands I think your unfortunate comment was made in jest to the rest of the town.

[Yosarian2]

Skruffs the fact that she was outside my doorstep meant I could not have done anything to her.

Um, RS, I'm pretty sure that that first mod post was just flavor; I highly doubt that Ether was giving us any information through thoses night scenes.

[Rotten Snitch]

oh yeah Oh well I still fought his WIFOM with my WIFOM lol

[Zindaras]

The fact that she was possibly blocking me proves I had nothing to do with her death.

Uhm, no. For one, you could simply not have been the wolf killing her. For two, we wouldn't know that unless we were absolutely sure that she blocked you. Just the possibility that you may not have killed her doesn't prove that you didn't kill her.

[Rotten Snitch]

again noted - but just because I know Strappado does not mean I killed her without implying the same to Skruffs. This was just Skruffles throwing poop into the fan and letting it fly around.

It was asked of me earlier why I thought Skruffs wasn't bringing it up to attack me and I said I had a feeling he was saving it to bring back later.