mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[Cream147]

Vote Count:

3 Evilgorrilaz (populartajo, iamausername, CoheedCambria09)
3 Alvinz95 (Mellowed Man, Gaspode, Cream147)
1 mellowed man (Evilgorrilaz)
1 Gaspode (Marmalade)


With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to reach majority.

Now THIS could be good fun!

I hate these posts. To me, you have poorly reread an misinterpreted what I said. I've explained most of those points you've made, yet you have failed to understand.

First off, thats a lot of reasons why I "definitely" earn a vote (sarcasm).

Liike 2

. Again, do you think I meant to lynch him? And does my crap-logic contribute to scumminess? No, its just logic I tried to make up to comment on Gaspode. All the things that are held against me are things that I've posted to comment on everyone's posts, like a good town member, always joining conversation. And, the least townie, most townie thing was to "speed up conversation".

If you count the reasons, there are 4. Two are connected by elias, but I still count them as seperate reasons. At this stage of the game, that's a fair few. I think that bad logic does contribute to scumminess, because it could be intentionally trying to confuse the town. I agree that joining in with the conversation is a good thing for the town, but you've got to hold yourself responsible for what you say nonetheless! When I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible. I find the game more fun that way.

Second, on elias the thief.

Maybe because Elias is experienced?! (good idea to get rid of experienced people yes!)

So you're saying I'm trying to lynch him? Why would I lynch a lurker? You haven't reread the thread I'm pretty sure. Again I say, the crap-logic was just a reply, not real scumhunting. If I wanted to lynch him, maybe I would put a FoS or a vote on. And refer to what populartajo said.

Mmm, why would he (a relative newbie) would suspect Elias (an experieced player) and for a weak reason? Wouldnt newbie scum avoid this kind of players?

I laughed when I saw that populartajo quote. That was the quote I was replying to with my comment about experience really. I notice you selectively quoted me there. The full quote you should have put was this.

Someone said why would alvinz try to single out someone as experienced as Elias. Maybe because Elias is experienced?! (good idea to get rid of experienced people yes!)

So you knew I had read that populartajo quote also, but hid it! That is REALLY scummy in my books, trying to trick people into thinking I hadn't read that.

My point was that as scum, getting rid of an experienced player who is town is good. You don't seem the kind of person who would cower at someone because of their join date either.

Lastly, WTF?

I think that the small FoS on iamausername is

COMPLETELY

uncalled for. No one's really noticed that, but I have, and it's for a

poor reason

.

So just because I put a SMALL fos on iamausername for a "poor" reason, then its COMPLETELY uncalled for? Thats

OVEREXAGGERATED

. If I voted him, then that would just be uncalled for. And if I said "iamausername is scum!" then that would be COMPLETELY uncalled for. No, actually making him claim would be completely uncalled for. I find this as a poor reason to add to your list of scumy actions so your vote seems more valid.

All you've done here is say how this is

only a small fos

. Well if I just randomly gave someone a small fos, what would you say? I would say that was

COMPLETELY

uncalled for. You still haven't defended your reasoning for giving that small fos, which was, as I said, poor. You attempt to make me look stupid but still don't actually defend yourself. It's quite a sneaky way of deflecting pressure, and certainly nothing that is useful to the town.

definitely earns you a Vote:alvinz95

Are you serious? These reasons that have already been tooken up, and replied, and one other pathetic, poor, reason, results in a DEFINITE vote? I see this as scum trying to grab a chance to lynch as cream sees a wagon, except there isn't enough stuff to say. You may call my stance defensive, but this attack is a ridiculous scum move.

I don't like your defenses to the elias reasons, and the last reason, which isn't pathetic (though I accept that is was a small fos), so yes, I think it definitely earned you a vote. You are by far the most scummy player in my books, and that is why my vote is on you. Now, you call this attack a ridiculous scum move, but you simply fail by doing this...

MAJOR FoS: Cream147

Sorry, but as you claimed that this attack is a ridiculous scum move, I see no reason why you hesitated to vote me. Trying to keep the suspicion off yourself by not voting for someone just because they voted for you?

I don't see how you can see this as a simple attempt to jump on the bandwagon because normally bandwagoners, particularly for the the scum, don't give reasons. I gave a post, with reasons mentioned before, and one (that you dismissed without giving any defense) of my own creation.

However, I must thank you for this post, for it gave me more reasons to assure me that you are the right vote. (The selective quoting and deflecting questions without answering them)

I'm currently happy with my vote.

(Sorry for this monster post)

[Cream147]

"So you're saying I'm trying to lynch him? Why would I lynch a lurker? You haven't reread the thread I'm pretty sure. Again I say, the crap-logic was just a reply, not real scumhunting. If I wanted to lynch him, maybe I would put a FoS or a vote on. And refer to what populartajo said. "

Should be quoted in my monster post. Sorry if that causes any confusion

[Gaspode]

It takes a whole category of logic and scumhunting out of the game. What if your usual townie playstyle was to be very quiet, serious, and conservative? Then your behavior in this game would be quite unusual, and probably suggest that you had some sort of power role. If we just discounted all metagame logic, we'd be losing out on tips like that. Generally, the more information available, the better things are for the town--thus, being avidly anti-metagame is somewhat scummy.

[Gaspode]

Sorry, the above post was replying to Evilgorrilaz' question about why being anti-metagaming is scummy. Believe it or not, that last post was kind of simuposted with Cream's (I just left the composing page up for way too long).

Cream: any smart player will give a reason when bandwagoning any time after the random vote phase, even if it's just a reference to someone else's reasoning. Posts with nothing but a vote suck.

Also, post 150 just seems like an exercise in petty arguing. There's honestly not much of substance there. I don't understand how the "selective quoting" misrepresented your post--I read it the same way in both cases. I also don't put much stock in the "COMPLETELY uncalled for" argument. I don't even remember the context of the FOS in question, but as soon as you started pointlessly bolding and caps-locking, I stopped caring. Being outraged at someone's method of stating an idea doesn't make either of you right. What matters is the idea itself, which I have totally forgotten.

Anyway, my post got kind of convoluted there, but the main point is both of Cream's posts really annoy me, and have tended to muddy the waters a bit. Thus,

FOS: Cream

. I still find alvinz scummy, but not for any of Cream's reasons.

[Cream147]

The selective quoting is relevant in my opinion because it makes it seem like I haven't read the populartajo quote. Maybe it didn't make it seem like that. I don't know, because I know what I said in the first place.

And as for your response to my small fos argument, whatever. If my posts annoy you, then sorry, if they've muddied the waters, then sorry. What they both meant to do was put my argument against alvinz.

I'm going to end up rereading this game again soon, because it really is irritating me that I am just not with it and it seems I am unable to substantiate a decent argument. I'm going to step back a bit now because I no longer believe I am helping the town; it seems like I am missing something.

[Evilgorrilaz]

I find most of cream's arguments against alvinz in 150 stretching.

All you've done here is say how this is only a small fos. Well if I just randomly gave someone a small fos, what would you say? I would say that was COMPLETELY uncalled for. You still haven't defended your reasoning for giving that small fos, which was, as I said, poor. You attempt to make me look stupid but still don't actually defend yourself. It's quite a sneaky way of deflecting pressure, and certainly nothing that is useful to the town.

I am pretty sure a FoS can have a poor reason behind it. FoS's can be based on nothing but getting bad vibes.

[alvinz95]

First of all,

I don't like your reaction. And your comeback to me makes you officially scum.

If you count the reasons, there are 4. Two are connected by elias, but I still count them as seperate reasons. At this stage of the game, that's a fair few. I think that bad logic does contribute to scumminess, because it could be intentionally trying to confuse the town. I agree that joining in with the conversation is a good thing for the town, but you've got to hold yourself responsible for what you say nonetheless! When I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible. I find the game more fun that way.

Nope, there is only 2. I counted. Reason one: I used crap-logic to single out Elias out of the lurkers. Reason two: I smalled fos'ed iamausername. You're trying to make your attack seem better by lying, just like scum.

So crap-logic confuses the town? No, have you seen the towns reaction? They understand it as "crap-logic", not confused. And can anyone explain how a confused town would effect the game? I'm not sure. Crap-logic -> confusing makes no sense. Its just bad logic. What the hell is this defense?

Weak and bad logic, and reason why I'm scum. "Because when I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible" So your THIRD reason is because YOU join conversation alot when you're scum, then I must be scum!! BAD, CRAP-LOGIC. If you follow this logic, then Gaspode is scum, and Elias the Thief is scum, Evilgorrilaz is scum, Mellowed Man is scum. And the townies are lurkers.

So you knew I had read that populartajo quote also, but hid it! That is REALLY scummy in my books, trying to trick people into thinking I hadn't read that.

My point was that as scum, getting rid of an experienced player who is town is good. You don't seem the kind of person who would cower at someone because of their join date either.

Why did you jump to that conclusion? I must have misread it. It was hidden in there, and I just didn't catch the "someone said" part. I thought you said "Why would alvinz try to single out someone as experienced as Elias." Now that you bring it up, you didn't even answer that. Jumping to bad conclusions too quickly -> Scummy. Sorry bout that. But what makes this part scummy is how quickly and how bad the conclusion was. Why would I trick people into thinking you hadn't read the post? It would make no difference what so ever. Again, it seems as if you are trying so hard to find some things to back it up, you can only get some scraps. And again, you OVEREXAGGERATE. Tricking is REALLY scummY? No, and it wasn't even tricking. I didn't catch the "someone said". You could have quoted it, or mentioned "populartajo" Overall, if you had no idea what I said, and it was just rambling, basically, your reaction is a bit "out-there" and scummy because it was odd and complex and you tried to use it against me, and that I didn't even catch the "someone said" part.

All you've done here is say how this is only a small fos. Well if I just randomly gave someone a small fos, what would you say? I would say that was COMPLETELY uncalled for. You still haven't defended your reasoning for giving that small fos, which was, as I said, poor. You attempt to make me look stupid but still don't actually defend yourself. It's quite a sneaky way of deflecting pressure, and certainly nothing that is useful to the town.

Ok, If you don't know the reason why I put the FoS down, then you're blind and you haven't reread the thread completely.

I find that you are getting irritated of such a menial thing like a small comment on lurkers, which isn't scumhunting, but just a thought. And you've misinterpreted some parts like the overall meaning (you think that I'm seriously scum-hunting, like using statistics as evidence, but I'm actually not) which is scummy.

How is my FoS COMPLETELY uncalled for? You are overexaggerating, and trying to scrape up some crap out of my posts to use against me. And yes I've already defended myself in post 101. And yes, you already look stupid calling a small FoS "COMPLETELY uncalled for", coming up with a very bad conclusion that I was trying to trick people in thinking I hadn't read that, then using it as a scum-tell, and using how you play ("when i'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible") as a scum-tell. And using all that as support for a "definite" vote.

Sorry, but as you claimed that this attack is a ridiculous scum move, I see no reason why you hesitated to vote me. Trying to keep the suspicion off yourself by not voting for someone just because they voted for you?

And, you jump to conclusion that I "hesitated" to vote you, when I have a different style of voting. I don't vote randomly because of one scummy thing. I FoS when some move is scummy (like post 100), and vote when there has been 2 very scummy posts or 3-4 scummy posts, if anyone has played with me, you'll know. What made your post major FoS was how scummy it was. Now that you've done another very scummy post which is why I

Vote: Cream147

.

I don't see how you can see this as a simple attempt to jump on the bandwagon because normally bandwagoners, particularly for the the scum, don't give reasons. I gave a post, with reasons mentioned before, and one (that you dismissed without giving any defense) of my own creation.

You are a bandwagoner because only one real reason was how I singled out Elias, and other people had already used it. You tried to add more by adding some scraps from my posts.

However, I must thank you for this post, for it gave me more reasons to assure me that you are the right vote.

Riiight. Thats why Elias liked my reaction, and Gaspode found nothing wrong or great about it.

[Gaspode]

Is it just me, or is this a really pointless, convoluted argument? It seems to me that the vast majority of the things said between Alvinz and Cream are irrelevant exercises in petty bickering, and we're getting nothing done.

It also doesn't help that their posts are nearly incomprehensible--PLEASE PROOFREAD, EVERYONE! That's why we have the preview button. I feel like I hardly know what's going on in this argument, just because everything is just angry, stream-of-consciousness "yelling".

Please, someone else make a coherent post that says something useful.

If you don't know what to talk about, how's this: No one has yet responded to my request for a case against Evilgorrilaz.

[CoheedCambria09]

Wow, you make some very convincing arguments in your post alivinz. As i kept reading more and more of it I became convinced myself of what you have said against Cream. I still have to hear his reply, and then based on the I can consider voting him, but for now

FoS Cream

[ashmite84]

I will be

LoA

for a couple of days.

[Gaspode]

I'm assuming this means away.

[iamausername]

OK, first of all,

unvote

, because my vote wasn't a particularly serious one when I made it, and really shouldn't still be there.

I think Gaspode is entirely correct that alvinz and Cream's argument mostly has nothing to do with scumhunting at this point. Attempting to quantify phrases like "completely uncalled for" is not at all useful, please stop it.

I've read through the game again, and I'm really having trouble coming to a firm conclusion, because pretty much everyone in this game seems fairly tough to get a read on. I'm still wary of alvinz, for the reasons stated earlier, but Mellowed Man pinged my scumdar more on reread. A lot of it is gut feeling, which I know is not particularly helpful, but I think he's been more wagon-happy than evilgorrilaz, and just generally seems to be acting fairly opportunistically.

So,

Vote: Mellowed Man

.

[Cream147]

As I've mentioned, I'm withdrawing out of my argument with alvinz. I agree with the general consensus that there really is no point now. I've read through your reply to my reply alvinz though, and I could very easily argue most of it. I will mention that my 4 reasons includes 2 reasons related to elias, 1 about the small fos, and then the one about your ask for most townly and most scummy. I only bothered replying this much because I don't want to look like a liar. However, the argument is now futile, and is telling us nothing except arguing over little details. My vote remains on you for now.

[CoheedCambria09]

Where has everyone gone?

[Marmalade]

Sorry for not posting in a while.

the reason would be that after reading through all the post, you just seem to be giving off a different vibe, i may be wrong, but thats what im getting, dont be worried, its a small fos, nothing to get jumpy about

This feels off.

I don't like Cream's evilgorillaz FoS -- it seems like it is for policy rather than for actual suspicion (being "bandwagon happy" isn't particularly strong reasoning.)

Can everyone post who they think is the most scummy, and who is the most townly, and explain why?

Nu-uh. Sure, posting the most scummy is fine, but posting who is most townly, after four pages, is pretty useless, and also it is only the scum who really benefit.

@Marmalade
I don't like meta because I play differently in every game, so I might get my ass lynched if people start bringing up my games.

Um, don't you think that we could probably establish this with a meta?

Stop using complicated words Gaspode, like pretentious. I cannot comprehend it. Unless thats how Brits talk.

Trust me, we Brits have very limited vocabularies.

Actually, people stating who they think is the most townly could prove to be useful later, when scum is lynched or NK'ed by the vigilante. Scum may have stated their partner like that, if they were stupid enough. But you do have a point. This is scum-hunting.

This feels

weird

.

IC's usually won't lurk like that. I'm not sure at all, but if there is one scum in those group of lurkers, then I'd say Elias.

This is really a contrived reason for suspecting Elias.

FoS: Alvinz

. Almost all his posts give me a bad feeling.

I like iamusername, since he beat me to it with Alvinz concerns.

And, in the games I've played in, IC's usually don't lurk, and will give a heads up if they're going to be away.

This is such an overwhelming generalisation. Also, I dislike the way you try to incriminate iamusername, since his concerns about you were spot on.

Alvinz seems to be the either "totally defensive" or "totally agreeing personality."
At the same time, I just have an instinct he is scum.

For example, he says "I'm just saying" whenever he's trying to make a point, as if he's afraid that someone is going to point fingers at him. It bugs me..

Or, he will say I agree with you, on something or the other. He seems to be wanting to make what is nothing into something, and it looks poor =(

I thought this was pretty lame originally, but it actually makes a bit of sense (just isn't formatted or expressed very well.)

I like tajo's posts -- they're pretty spot on (although I don't know about his alvinz pro-town assertions).

Alright, so for some reason I think iamusername and alvinz95 are like a pair, it is just an illusion that came to my mind when rereading the 1st post of Iamusername, on page 5, etc. and so on.

I'd love an explanation of this, since I kinda think the opposite, to be honest.

I think cream exaggerated the case on alvinz, but alvinz seemed to be quite angry in response, accusing cream of essentially going completely over the top. I agree with Gaspode that neither come across particularly spectacularly from this exchange. Also, cream's response to alvinz is really scummy and exaggerated. Pretty sure this has gone to the "Oh no I didn't! Oh yes you did" part of the argument now, and is fairly irrelevant.

Also, Hypatia and Cambria are giving me bad vibes about their posts.

I find the evilgorrilaz wagon uninteresting.

I should summarise my stances:

I Like:

tajo, Gaspode

I'm Neutral:

Elias, evilgorrillaz, Mellowed Man, iamusername

I Don't Like:[/b] Hypatia, Cambria, Alvinz, Cream

I'd like to

unvote, vote: CoheedCambria09

. I don't like the way he basically never gives reasons for his votes and suspicions, and the ones he gives aren't al that great.

I'd also like to

FoS: Cream

, because his argument with Alvinz exaggerates his points and makes them more scummy to suit his argument. As for Alvinz, I don't particularly like the reasons that Cream brought up (albeit on a lesser level), and other parts of his posts. However, I'm concerned that some of my suspicion on Alvinz is policy related (Elias as the lurker-scum, advocating we tell who we think is the most-townie etc.), so I don't think I will Fos him directly.

[Marmalade]

Hm, it turns out I did FoS Alvinz. I think I will withdraw that FoS, though, since I'm unsure now about whether or not his points are being misconstrued by others.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Unvote, Vote: Cream147

As I've mentioned, I'm withdrawing out of my argument with alvinz. I agree with the general consensus that there really is no point now. I've read through your reply to my reply alvinz though, and I could very easily argue most of it. I will mention that my 4 reasons includes 2 reasons related to elias, 1 about the small fos, and then the one about your ask for most townly and most scummy. I only bothered replying this much because I don't want to look like a liar. However, the argument is now futile, and is telling us nothing except arguing over little details. My vote remains on you for now.

I am getting bad vibes from this. You seem to be saying, "okay my argument was pretty petty, but you still get my vote." I might be misinterpreting it, but that is what it seems like to me.

I kinda think that the recent conversation between alvinz and cream has been bussing. Anyone agree with that?

[Cream147]

Unvote, Vote: Cream147

As I've mentioned, I'm withdrawing out of my argument with alvinz. I agree with the general consensus that there really is no point now. I've read through your reply to my reply alvinz though, and I could very easily argue most of it. I will mention that my 4 reasons includes 2 reasons related to elias, 1 about the small fos, and then the one about your ask for most townly and most scummy. I only bothered replying this much because I don't want to look like a liar. However, the argument is now futile, and is telling us nothing except arguing over little details. My vote remains on you for now.

I am getting bad vibes from this. You seem to be saying, "okay my argument was pretty petty, but you still get my vote." I might be misinterpreting it, but that is what it seems like to me.

I kinda think that the recent conversation between alvinz and cream has been bussing. Anyone agree with that?

What I really meant was, I still think my original argument is fair, however, our subsequent messages are worthless, because they are essentially arguing over little details. I still think alvinz is worth a vote.

[ashmite84]

Sorry guys. I have to go away for a week. Unexpected. Request replacement.

[Gaspode]

My laptop's power cord just stopped working for no reason about two days ago, so I have very limited access (I have to borrow my roommate's charger, and my battery only last for about 20 minutes.)

I probably won't be on much (if at all) until tomorrow night or Monday, when I can hopefully get a charger. Sorry.

[Elias_the_thief]

so...activity much?

[iamausername]

Well, I've replaced into a 30+ page game with a deadline in about 24 hours, so that's obviously taking priority right now, but I'm still checking up on this one.

Mod: Can we get a prod on Mellowed Man?

He hasn't posted since Tuesday, and I'm waiting for his input in particular.

[Miztef]

looking for a replacement and prodding.

[Mellowed Man]

I hate these posts. To me, you have poorly reread an misinterpreted what I said. I've explained most of those points you've made, yet you have failed to understand.

First off, thats a lot of reasons why I "definitely" earn a vote (sarcasm).

Liike 2

.

Again, do you think I meant to lynch him? And does my crap-logic contribute to scumminess?

No, its just logic I tried to make up to comment on Gaspode. All the things that are held against me are things that I've posted to comment on everyone's posts, like a good town member, always joining conversation. And, the least townie, most townie thing was to "speed up conversation".

Second, on elias the thief.

Maybe because Elias is experienced?! (good idea to get rid of experienced people yes!)

So you're saying I'm trying to lynch him? Why would I lynch a lurker? You haven't reread the thread I'm pretty sure. Again I say, the crap-logic was just a reply, not real scumhunting. If I wanted to lynch him, maybe I would put a FoS or a vote on. And refer to what populartajo said.

Mmm, why would he (a relative newbie) would suspect Elias (an experieced player) and for a weak reason? Wouldnt newbie scum avoid this kind of players?

Lastly, WTF?

I think that the small FoS on iamausername is

COMPLETELY

uncalled for. No one's really noticed that, but I have, and it's for a

poor reason

.

So just because I put a SMALL fos on iamausername for a "poor" reason, then its COMPLETELY uncalled for? Thats

OVEREXAGGERATED

. If I voted him, then that would just be uncalled for. And if I said "iamausername is scum!" then that would be COMPLETELY uncalled for. No, actually making him claim would be completely uncalled for. I find this as a poor reason to add to your list of scumy actions so your vote seems more valid.

definitely earns you a Vote:alvinz95

Are you serious? These reasons that have already been tooken up, and replied, and one other pathetic, poor, reason, results in a DEFINITE vote? I see this as scum trying to grab a chance to lynch as cream sees a wagon, except there isn't enough stuff to say. You may call my stance defensive, but this attack is a ridiculous scum move.

MAJOR FoS: Cream147

You call all of his reasoning pathetic and poor, and then say that you were just trying to "speed up conversation." If you consider that defending yourself, then I am appalled. You say you made up logic to use on Gaspode.. Sounds like you are just trying to be, like you said, the "most townie", to avoid suspicion. Therefore, it appears that you want to shy away from suspicion, and when it falls you used very pitiable excuses.

[CoheedCambria09]

I'd like to

unvote, vote: CoheedCambria09

. I don't like the way he basically never gives reasons for his votes and suspicions, and the ones he gives aren't al that great.

I didn't go back and check, but I'm pretty sure I've only ever voted Evilgorrilaz. I believe I said that I voted for him for being initially wagon happy. My votes stayed on him, and I didn't think I had to continually justify why its there. [/quote]