Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sure why "vaugeness" in this case is a scumtell. She didn't like the wagon yesterday, and dosn't like it today in retrospect; isn't that kind of how you would expect a pro-town person to respond in that situation? She was discussing the wagon, which is only logical since that's the main thing we've talked about today, and has basically been venting her opinions on it in general. Could you show me exactally what it is she's said that you think scum would be more likely to say then town?

[Mizzy]

Let me explain (again) WHY I am upset with the Capri lynch. I think that might be getting lost in everything going on.

I am not upset, specifically, that it was a mislynch...mislynches happen. Hell, I've caused a couple in past games just by being an over-zealous townie. They suck, but they happen, and a mislynch is better than a no-lynch. What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism. I am hoping that we can break from that in the future and lynch those we think are scummiest, not the ones we think we can get lynched just to keep days moving.

I don't think (as was already pointed out) that those people are scummy persay, but I do ask that we concentrate on scumhunting and not lynchhunting. We should not be lynching the easiest target just to move the days forward...we should be working towards correct lynches. Not everyone on Capri's wagon is guilty of that, either...some people legitimately thought he was scum, and I can't fault them for that.

[eldarad]

I'm not sure why "vaugeness" in this case is a scumtell. She didn't like the wagon yesterday, and dosn't like it today in retrospect; isn't that kind of how you would expect a pro-town person to respond in that situation? She was discussing the wagon, which is only logical since that's the main thing we've talked about today, and has basically been venting her opinions on it in general. Could you show me exactally what it is she's said that you think scum would be more likely to say then town?

Well, taking post 551, which Mizzy simul-posted with you, she still hasn't named any people that she's actually unhappy (or happy) with.

What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism.

Which people? Is one person worse than others?

I don't think (as was already pointed out) that those people are scummy persay, but I do ask that we concentrate on scumhunting and not lynchhunting.

Who was lynchhunting rather than scumhunting?

Not everyone on Capri's wagon is guilty of that, either...some people legitimately thought he was scum, and I can't fault them for that.

Who?

This is the thing Yos. Mizzy has produced plenty of content Today, but it's ALL vague. Apart from directly responding to Skruffs, there's no specific people she has addressed but she

has

been attacking the Capri wagoners. And even when challenged on this, she denies attacking at all, since only posts with a vote or a FoS constitute an attack according to Mizzy.
It just doesn't sit right with me.

[Mizzy]

The list has already been named, Eld, how many times do you need to see it for it to sink in? You haven't asked me for a list that I noticed before this. You just plain attacked me.

Do you want to see the list again or can you be a big boy and go read it on your own since it was already given by someone else?

[eldarad]

I've seen your list where you have given people a score on a scale from 1 to 10 in terms of scumminess. But I'm not seeing how that relates to all of the other posts you have made so far in the whole game.

Why don't you indulge me and tell me who, specifically, you were talking about in post 551?

[Ether]

2 Mizzy (Skruffs, eldarad)
1 eldarad (Yosarian2)

6 Unvote (Andycyca, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Y, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

[Mizzy]

I've seen your list where you have given people a score on a scale from 1 to 10 in terms of scumminess. But I'm not seeing how that relates to all of the other posts you have made so far in the whole game.

Why don't you indulge me and tell me who, specifically, you were talking about in post 551?

Sure thing, then. Please keep in mind that this is not an attack, just a list showing why I didn't like the reasoning behind the Capri wagon. If I missed a post where someone on the list says they found Capri to be scummy and a good scum-lynch, then please point me to it.

6 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas, Skruffs, Y, Yosarian2, Andycyca)

eldarad:

Says a couple times that he actually thinks Capri is scum. Moving on to the others.

hasdgfas:

Says once that he thinks Capri is likely to be scum. Moving on.

Skruffs:

Says his justification for voting/being on the Capri wagon is information gathering and to keep from having a mislynch. Doesn't mention finding him to be scum that I can find.

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

Y:

Says he finds Capri to be a little on the scummy side but not his main suspect...however he also says he'd vote Capri in a pinch in order to secure a lynch.

Skruffs is still my main suspect for trying to make facts about who must be scum without a real basis, but I'm not ruling Capricious out. I'll vote Capricious if needed for a lynch.

The town needs a lynch and Capricious seems a good enough option.
Unvote, Vote Capricious. I still think Skruffs should be looked at more carefully.

Yosarian2:

Yosarian2 actually did explain why he still voted Capri anyway, and I can understand that. However, he still didn't think Capri was "especially likely to be scum" adding to the "well, whatever" feeling to the whole wagon.

It's not so much because I think he's especally likely to be scum, not much more so then anyone else anyway. It's more that, at this point, it looks like that unless he starts defending himself better or unless something else happens, the day appears that it is going to end in either a no-lynch or a capi lynch. I'd rather see a capi lynch then a no-lynch, and I'm also hoping that the added pressure will encourage him to come back and try to defend himself or claim or something, and to do it fast.

Andycyca:

Hammered Capri using these two posts to "justify" it, again adding to the, "he may not be scum but let's lynch him anyway" theme.

A lynch is better than NoLynch IMHO, and even if Capri isn't the scummier right now, he should claim quickly or die.

I don't think Capri is the scummiest one, but we definitely should lynch pronto.

[Zindaras]

Don't expect too much from me for a bit, have important tests on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday.

[Y]

Don't expect too much from me for a bit, have important tests on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday.

Same. Got a big test (Israeli SAT) on Wednesday.

[Mizzy]

What, does

everyone

have stuff to do? Where IS everyone?

[Andycyca]

Doing our mid-terms, duh.

[Mizzy]

Sorry, I've been out of school for years so I have no idea what the hell you guys are doing

[Rotten Snitch]

I said I would when I have more time. I am busy at work but I don’t want people thinking I am neglecting this game.

That was the first real thing you've said all day, Rotton Snitch, you only did it in response to pressure about your lack of contrabution, and you were incredibly vauge about it. If you think Skruffs is scum, could you explain why? Same with Mizzy or Zindy. What have they done that makes you think they're likely to be scum, exactally?

Yos I have been meaning to post but it is really hard to follow the thread with the constant battling going on between Mizzy, Zindy, and Skruffs. This is pinging my scumdar the most is what seems to be the distancing that is going on. The three of them have been bickering all game and it has really been useless posts and logic that none of the others are biting. It is really making it look like they are doing this on purpose. I will not make quotes because I am at work and it will get really lengthy. The beginning had Skruffs and Zindy fighting about Meta which did not result in anything. It did not even in the slightest way contribute to Capri’s lynch. Mizzy and Skruffles get into a lot after that and then Skruffles accuses the Zindy Mizzy buddying up which set her off. I think this is all a gambit to isolate these three and confuse the rest of us. All of the votes with the exception of these three are from other peoples observations and suspicions which means no one is really reading what they say and thinking “hey ya got a point Skruffs ….vote mizzy or zindy or vice versa” With the amount of posts coming from them it will be hard for us to go through and sort out the Bull poop from the scum tells from the scum hunting. I have been meaning to make a nice post like this one with posts and quotes and such but I do not have the patience to wade through then endless posts to make my points.

What I also don’t like about Skruffles.
His quote here

You are not playing in the townie manner to which I am accustomed, Zindaras.

which are you accustomed to Skruffies? Townie or scum? I'm confused...

And I didn't say that you were scum in this game BECAUSE you were scum in the last three games we played in together, I am inferring that you are acting NOW like the scum you WERE in those games

I think Skruffs is playing this game with the intention to confuse and befuddle the other players. He has attacked everyone so far and has really put the gloves on to attack Mizzy and Zindy. But yet he was quick to be on the Capri bandwagon so that “we could make it through night two and get information” Yet after all the “information” we gathered in night two (Capri and Elmo being town) Skruffs still launches into Mizzy and Zindy again.

Skruffs what information were you looking for in night two? Because so far your attacks haven’t changed much since day 1

[Zindaras]

I've got uni tests. Two weeks, five tests (second week now). The biggest and baddest, International Economics 2, is scheduled for Thursday morning. After that, I get home and hopefully do some work for this game, but I also want to schedule in work on a paper this week.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs:

Says his justification for voting/being on the Capri wagon is information gathering and to keep from having a mislynch. Doesn't mention finding him to be scum that I can find.

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

You are right. I thought Andycaca was more likely scum than Capricious. I didn't really think Capricious was scum. However, as uninformed town, I am not going to say, like you did, the equivalent of "Let's keep all suspicion on only two people and criticize other people for branching away from that, and then say that this person is town and criticize people for not going in other directions" because I recall you being suspicious of me for attacking Zindaras when Capricious and Rotten Snitch were the 'main targets' of the day.

Yes, I Thought Capricious was town, but it would be stupid of me to assume I know enough about Capricious to be able ot confirm he is town and to give up the only chance I, as town, had of getting the ability to kill scum just because I Wasn't sure that someone was scum. Plus, he was self voting.

You can't help focus attention on a player and then at the last moment turn around and say "People settled for a mislynch" when it's on the player you were trying to help get more and more suspicion on.

Vote stands.

[Mizzy]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

[hasdgfas]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

Mizzy, if you're trying to say that he's being overdefensive, just stop and get off of that line of thought.

[Mizzy]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

Mizzy, if you're trying to say that he's being overdefensive, just stop and get off of that line of thought.

What is interesting to me is that even when I specifically say I'm not attacking anyone, he has to immediately jump to his own defense, and attack me in return,

again

. So yes, what I am saying is that he needs to read a little better and not get so damned touchy when I wasn't attacking him.

[Y]

RS: I really don't think Mizzy, Zindaras and Skruffs are scum together. It's very unusual for three people, all of them on the same scum group, to fight each other so badly. Worst case scenario - They're all lynched. Best case - One of them gets lynched. Bad either way. One, maybe two? Could be. All three? I don't think so.

Mizzy, you're saying you're attacking no one, yet you keep throwing accusations all over the place.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, you're saying you're attacking no one, yet you keep throwing accusations all over the place.

Did you even bother reading my big post? You know, the one you all wanted to see? I haven't attacked anyone other than Skruffs for his bullshit anti-town behavior.

Someone asked me for why I didn't like the Capri wagon, so I said why. I also said, in the same post, that I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just giving reasons why I stayed off of it.

[Rotten Snitch]

Y- it could be the three or any combination. I do not know how many bad guys there are in this game but with three of us already dead I'm hoping there are only two bad guys.

[Skruffs]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

I was asserting my position; could you point out where (yesterday) you objected to it, as compared to today, when you see fit to?

Y, like Mizzy yesterday, is looking for 'proof' of scumminess before willingness to vote, which is at best lazy or at worst cop-fishing. I'm not saying votes should be cast willy nilly but to be against the thought of being suspicious of someone is anti-town; everyone needs to scrutinize everyone to really come up with answers they can believe in; otherwise he is asking for hte 'highest bidder' to lead (or more likely, MISLEAD) him without being responsible for it. Scum tell.

Fos : Y

Yos seems to be subtly goading Mizzy, which I really don't like. I've been mistrustful of Yos ever sinec Open 14, though, so I'm hyper sensitive to his playstyle, even if I can't really understand it.

Rotten Snitch: What are you getting at? I've been in many games with Zindaras, as town or as scum or as both on either side. I said that he is playing the way he plays as scum AND that he's not playing the way he plays as town. Mizzy attacked me for 'baseless meta' for it, which I take as her saying that my opinions are useless. My experience with several of hte players in the game amount to nothing; that's fine. But she also went through and said that she thought I was anti-town town day one; which, again, is A) discrediting me, B) metaing, and C) building brownie points for herself by agreeing with 'her attackers' which, again, goes back towards discrediting me.

I'm not sure what townies are supposed to use, day 1, to figure things out. You don' thave a voting history, you don't have any confirmed dead players (Strappado won't count, because she never actually got to speak with anyone) and you don't have any extra game knowledge. So bringing up metas, I think, is a perfectly good way to start day one, as I said, day one, and was attacked for by the same person who wantsed to keep the game in the 'random voting stage' - ie she wanted to waste time in a KNOWN TWO WEEK DEADLINE and, well, etc, etc, etc.

As for what we know, yes, now we know that Capricious (and Elmo) are town, butm, ROTTEN SNITCH, did you know this yesterday? Knowing that, have you gone back to see who first started the attack on him? WAs it because (hmm) Zindaras and Mizzy focused on him in the beginning of the day, and after Mizzy intentionally corralled people onto focusing on him, they both abandoned ship near deadline so as to look better? Do you not see that?

[Rotten Snitch]

No what I gathered from the information that you wanted so badly was that
1) You suspected Mizzy and Zindy day one based on nothing.
2) We are down three townies, one of which you were part of on the lynch
3) Nothing has changed in your attacks since day 1. You are not even going after them for their voting patterns.
4) I do see Mizzy and Zindy's postings which is why I am suspicious of all three of you.
Because I do not know how many Scum-Wolf-Cat-Mafia there are I have to be suspicious of the three of you.

[Y]

Someone asked me for why I didn't like the Capri wagon, so I said why.

I also said

, in the same post,

that I'm not accusing anyone of anything

, just giving reasons why I stayed off of it.

That's my point: You're saying that, while doing the opposite.

Skruffs, I'm not "looking for proof before I vote", but I do tend not to vote people just for the sake of voting. I vote when I thing the vote should be placed on some one. I'm sorry to tell you that, but I see little connection between your logic and reality.
By the way, if I was voting, my vote would be on you, by the way.

[Mizzy]

Y, like Mizzy yesterday, is looking for 'proof' of scumminess before willingness to vote, which is at best lazy or at worst cop-fishing.

Really busy but wanted to quick toss this out there...Skruffs, since you seem to have said (correct me if I am wrong) that you meta D1 because there is nothing else to go on, did you bother to meta me at all? I'm a very, very cautious player and in ALL the games I have been in, I do not vote unless I am sure of that vote. So yes, I want proof of scumminess, because without it, I'm not ever comfortable voting.