Thespival Mafia (Denouement)

[petroleumjelly]

The fact that 6 out of the 8 remaining players (the exceptions being our two lurkers Iammars and MGIA) have expressed an interest in lynching Beep is somewhat worrying in and of itself.

Actually, a quick check reveals Iammars is the only player to have never make an attack on Beep, though MGIA's was early on and pretty insubstantial. Hm.

Cam

There are probably 2 scum remaining in the game. If Beep! Beep! is scum, that means there is probably only one scum-partner who might possibly be against her lynching. And even then, they would likely have a strong incentive to simply bus her because her play is so terrible.

-----

I have been wondering off-hand about something that I would like people's opinions on (and this is largely influenced by the notion of Beep! Beep! being scum). Do people think the scum-group was told in advance that Pooky was the Jester?

[Mizzy]

I have been wondering off-hand about something that I would like people's opinions on (and this is largely influenced by the notion of Beep! Beep! being scum). Do people think the scum-group was told in advance that Pooky was the Jester?

Hrm, interesting question...but I doubt that would have happened. I have never heard of a game in which the scum knew the Jester's identity before-hand. Though, just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't happen but I would say it's highly unlikely.

[Beep! Beep!]

It will be a pyrrhic victory I know, but I really look forward to proving you wrong, PJ.

My play is terrible? You bet it is. I totally suck at the art of persuasion.

You are the absolute, master of all scumbags. I've been spending hours running vote counts through the scumputer, and lo and behold, your name always floats to the top like cream! I would have wasted this many hours as scum? I don't think so, but I'll let you and your probable second partner discredit this statement as WIFOM.

You SAY my play is terrible. But is it, really? Maybe by your obsessive-compulsive standards, but by most normal standards, it is not. That's what makes you a superior scumbag pitted against a lousy, voteless, role-less townie. You plow and plow the same row, you repeat the mantra until it becomes the truth. You're far better at it than I will ever be or even care to become.

But tomorrow, when I'm dead, and I at last have the satisfaction of having shown you to be completely, utterly and hopelessly wrong, I hope that it is clear for the rest of the town, if we survive, that those that understood the depth and intensity of my frustration were not scumbags, but fellow townies.

To be freakin' vanilla and have one's vote stolen after having wasted countless hours trying to find scum, only to be outscummed, is the absolute height of frustration, thank you very much. And then I get berated for complaining that the day is going to be a bore-fest for me, and that vote-stealing should not be part of the Mod's dictionary, and when I do freakin' spend another few hours re-hashing the freakin' data, I get berated for that because PJ pretends not to understand how it works, and a couple of clerical error on my part that don't change the freakin' outcome anyway, and you all freakin' vote for me. And I can't even freakin' hammer myself, because that idiot MGIA thought it would be fun stealing my pathetic vote, instead of that of a freakin' lurker that contributes nothing, and everybody knows who these are.

[Beep! Beep!]

I have been wondering off-hand about something that I would like people's opinions on (and this is largely influenced by the notion of Beep! Beep! being scum). Do people think the scum-group was told in advance that Pooky was the Jester?

Hrm, interesting question...but I doubt that would have happened. I have never heard of a game in which the scum knew the Jester's identity before-hand. Though, just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't happen but I would say it's highly unlikely.

WOW!!!!

Hey, how about finding scum, Mizzy? Care to take a closer look at PJ and Holy, maybe???

[Beep! Beep!]

If you are trying to imply you are a second Jester, I do not believe that.

For Pete's sakes, only a scumbag would make that kind of statement. Doesn't anyone see this???

[Beep! Beep!]

I have been wondering off-hand about something that I would like people's opinions on (and this is largely influenced by the notion of Beep! Beep! being scum). Do people think the scum-group was told in advance that Pooky was the Jester?

Hrm, interesting question...but I doubt that would have happened. I have never heard of a game in which the scum knew the Jester's identity before-hand. Though, just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it couldn't happen but I would say it's highly unlikely.

Oh yeah, sorry, you're Amelia's replacement the other scumbag. Never mind.

[Beep! Beep!]

The fact that 6 out of the 8 remaining players (the exceptions being our two lurkers Iammars and MGIA) have expressed an interest in lynching Beep is somewhat worrying in and of itself.

Actually, a quick check reveals Iammars is the only player to have never make an attack on Beep, though MGIA's was early on and pretty insubstantial. Hm.

Cam

Yes, and you're my third scumbag candidate. How lovely to be a freakin' voteless, role-less townie when two probable townies are freakin' lurking or otherwise non-entities, and I've got active scum geniuses spinning the info? Yeah, great fun, this game, great fun.

Oh please lynch me, that way, you'll see that Iammars and MGIA didn't attack me because unlike the scumbag, their spidey sense tells them I'm town, and they're not berating my play, my scumputer, my scumhunt, my tone...

And maybe after that the rest of the town will come to its senses and lynch PJ, mathcam and Mizzy, your pick.

How many amens to give hasdagas a vig shot?

Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!
Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!
Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!
Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!
Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!
Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen! Amen!

[Beep! Beep!]

How about some Hallelujahs?

Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

[Beep! Beep!]

Grant the Road Runner his dying wish, hasdagas - take care of PJ tonight!

[Beep! Beep!]

Oh and hasdagas, look back, and count how many Amens and Hallelujahs you've been getting from the various players.

I bet that the scumbags conveniently forgot regularly. Nail them. Nail them good.

[petroleumjelly]

Beep! Beep!, when you are asking the town to lynch you and you toss out:

Maybe I *am* playing for my win condition, even if I may profess not to. You decide.

That appears to me to be a threat that it is your win condition is to be lynched (i.e. Jester), which I do not believe.

~~~~~

And yes, your play is terrible not because you fail to eloquent (or whatever it is you are accusing me of being), but because your methodology is all wrong -- I have pointed out multiple flaws with it --

and yet you still try to stick to it

. You are being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. Your only commentary on my play has come directly from my latest conversation with you; in other words, you are not actually rereading the game in order to comment on people, but you are instead relying on the latest posts, which is failing to take a comprehensive view of the game.

Even if you are town, that will not "prove me wrong". Your play will still have been terrible, and if you try to pull something like this in another game I will push to have you lynched there as well: either you are indeed scum or you being almost as unhelpful a townsperson as you can possibly be. I am nowhere near being "confident" that you are scum -- I rarely ever am. You have not quite reached the point of me wanting to "policy lynch" you, but you are fast approaching it after having refused to ask to be replaced in the game.

My going after you has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you claim to be vanilla. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are devoid a vote from today. It has everything to do with wolfcrier's reaction to my vote on him on Day Two, and the lack of my being satisfied by any player who has held your role throughout the entire game (that being wolfcrier, JDGA, and now you). Anybody can put "effort" into a game regardless of alignment. What is needed is the right sort of effort.

You would do well to read some of the articles which object to "game theory", the use of creating a model from a situation and then using mathematics to determine what one "should do". There is a whole slew of problems in quantifying values ("scum points"), determining who to consider as eligibile for certain values (live players who you think are town, scum, jester, etc), and so forth. Using mathematics as a tool for social situations is an inherently biased tool. The numbers are meaningless unless you add context to them, and context is precisely what your numbers are missing.

[Beep! Beep!]

Beep! Beep!, when you are asking the town to lynch you and you toss out:

Maybe I *am* playing for my win condition, even if I may profess not to. You decide.

That appears to me to be a threat that it is your win condition is to be lynched (i.e. Jester), which I do not believe.

This was IN NO WAY written to imply I was a second Jester, you are sooooo scum, PJ.

And yes, your play is terrible not because you fail to eloquent (or whatever it is you are accusing me of being), but because your methodology is all wrong -- I have pointed out multiple flaws with it --

and yet you still try to stick to it

.

AT LEAST I freakin' try.

Even if you are town, that will not "prove me wrong".

Yes it absolutely will. Because it is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that I am town, and your refusal to see it is because YOU ARE SCUM. For you to acknowledge that I am town would be against your win condition, which is with the scum.

but you are fast approaching it after having refused to ask to be replaced in the game.

I am still playing to win. I don't need replacing, I don't want replacing. As frustrated as I am, I don't want to be replaced. It would cheapen the victory of seeing you red-faced, when my replacement gets lynched.

My going after you has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you claim to be vanilla. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are devoid a vote from today.

It makes it bloody easy, doesn't it???

It has everything to do with wolfcrier's reaction to my vote on him on Day Two, and the lack of my being satisfied by any player who has held your role throughout the entire game (that being wolfcrier, JDGA, and now you).

OK then lynch me and be spectacularly wrong.

Anybody can put "effort" into a game regardless of alignment. What is needed is the right sort of effort.

I firmly believe that I have made the right sort of effort. You may disagree with my methods and my conclusions, since one of these conclusions is that you are scum. You pretty much have no choice but to disagree with me and try to discredit my model.

You would do well to read some of the articles which object to "game theory", the use of creating a model from a situation and then using mathematics to determine what one "should do". There is a whole slew of problems in quantifying values ("scum points"), determining who to consider as eligibile for certain values (live players who you think are town, scum, jester, etc), and so forth. Using mathematics as a tool for social situations is an inherently biased tool. The numbers are meaningless unless you add context to them, and context is precisely what your numbers are missing.

I have my theories, you got yours.

[petroleumjelly]

If you are town,

I will not be the least bit red-faced

. Your play is

terrible

. You are not even

reading the game, you are instead relying on votes

.

As I have already mentioned, not everybody who claims to suspect somebody also votes that person. You are leaving out FoS's, you are leaving out IGMEOY's, you are leaving out pushing on a bandwagon, you are leaving out "I will vote X if conditions Y and Z are met". Even then, voting analysis is meant to be a tool to sent you in a direction to look for scum --

it does not tell you who the scum are

.

When I first started playing mafia, I used voting analyses all the time. Now I hardly ever use them. Why? Because I have discovered over the past two and a half years of playing mafia that they rarely -- if ever -- help. Scum and townspeople alike vote in strange ways: to force your conception of who a scum ought to be voting in any given situation is just dumb. Instead of looking at whether or not there is a vote, you ought to be looking behind the reasoning of the vote (i.e. the intentions of the vote) and work from there.

If you are town, try convincing me of it, because by your own standards you will be just as "red-faced" when you discover that not only has you analysis been wrong up to this point, but it is

still

wrong at this point. I have been

more

than willing to second-guess you, and in fact I am still doing so, but your behavior is only making me want you lynched regardless of your alignment, and I really

hate

lynching people under that mentality because I would rather lynch people on the basis that I think they are scum, end of story. Right now you are making me not even

care

if you are town.

[Beep! Beep!]

I believe that FOS's and OGMYOU are totally worthless. Maybe *I* have yet to discover that these analyses don't work, but they have worked for me so far, though admittedly not yet in this game, I have taken its prior successes as encouragement. I actually believe that the reasons behind a vote are nowhere near as important as the vote itself. That's my working assumption. Whether you agree with it or not, whether you think it has value or not, does not make me scum.

[mathcam]

I have been wondering off-hand about something that I would like people's opinions on (and this is largely influenced by the notion of Beep! Beep! being scum). Do people think the scum-group was told in advance that Pooky was the Jester?

I'm confused -- Wouldn't this be an automatic defeat for the jester? He/she would be subject to the whims of whether or not the mafia was willing to be co-victors, which would seem to be 100% of the time "no," at least if I were scum.

I fucking knew it...DGB and Beep Beep are the same person...god everything makes so much sense now. No wonder I dont understand anything you are saying....which is funny, because i said the exact samething in another game about DGB today....

I ran across this line again in reading through CKD's posts again. This too seems a little over-the-top. Given that we already know CKD was prone to faking dramatic positions (the self-vote, the imploring pleas, the fake bah post, etc.), it would certainly fit the pattern for CKD to have already known that Beep was DGB and have taken this opportunity to feign a dramatic surprise at this revelation.

I think I'm sold.

Vote: Beep! Beep!

.

Cam

[Beep! Beep!]

I fucking knew it...DGB and Beep Beep are the same person...god everything makes so much sense now. No wonder I dont understand anything you are saying....which is funny, because i said the exact samething in another game about DGB today....

I ran across this line again in reading through CKD's posts again. This too seems a little over-the-top. Given that we already know CKD was prone to faking dramatic positions (the self-vote, the imploring pleas, the fake bah post, etc.), it would certainly fit the pattern for CKD to have already known that Beep was DGB and have taken this opportunity to feign a dramatic surprise at this revelation.

I think I'm sold.

Vote: Beep! Beep!

.

Cam

What you say makes no sense, cam.

I was scum in Heroes Smalltown and he was town. You were in that game, too, mathcam. So you ought to know.

We were 3 scum left, and there were 4 townies. CKD really had no chance, my scumbuddy Adele framed him in such a way that we had to either lynch CKD, or lynch Adele. The town was really outscummed, but I could sense his frustration and despair, I actually felt terrible playing with his emotion like that, in a way, for me, it was a bitter victory because I didn't enjoy making CKD miserable. He was right, he was telling the truth, but there we were framing him on purpose.

So in Thespival yesterday, I saw him pull out the same drama. So it got me thinking that maybe both hasdagas (whom I firmly believe to be town) and CKD might be town. And then PJ made this long post, second guessing the mod and all, and it wasn't so clear that CKD was lying scum, this time.

Ah well, CKD and I are now even. I fooled him, and now he fooled me. I shall have no mercy on him should he wish to pull my heartstrings ever again.

mathcam I know you are scum in this game. Just confess. It's not the type of victory that will give you satisfaction. You don't want to make me cry do you?

[petroleumjelly]

No posts since Friday? Wherefore art thou slackers?

[Beep! Beep!]

PJ, assume that I am town.

Tomorrow, who are you going to think is scum?

[hasdgfas]

excellent question

[mathcam]

excellent question

Really? Seemed to me like it was more designed to satisfy Beep's curiosity than provide useful information we can use. In fact, this is exactly the kind of question I was referring to when arguing with PJ that not all revealed information is beneficial to the town. For this particular question, it seems like the mafia gains more by knowing the answer to this (for the purposes of making a kill overnight, assuming PJ isn't scum) than the town does (catching a tell in PJ, or more likely just being able to point and laugh after the game if he's wrong).

Cam

[hasdgfas]

useful reaction

[Beep! Beep!]

excellent question

Really? Seemed to me like it was more designed to satisfy Beep's curiosity than provide useful information we can use.

WRONG.

In fact, this is exactly the kind of question I was referring to when arguing with PJ that not all revealed information is beneficial to the town.

Are you setting up for PJ to refuse to answer my question? If so, why?

For this particular question, it seems like the mafia gains more by knowing the answer to this (for the purposes of making a kill overnight, assuming PJ isn't scum) than the town does (catching a tell in PJ,....

Nope. *IF* PJ is town, and it's a long shot, but anything is possible, my behavior might be blinding the super-intelligent jelly and preventing him from seeing actual scum, like, say, erm, lemme think, mathcam. Or maybe others.

or more likely just being able to point and laugh after the game if he's wrong)

That statement is the mother of all manipulative statements.

Amen hasdagas, Amen.

[Beep! Beep!]

useful reaction

I'm beginning to think that mathcam is more scum than PJ.

Feel free to vig mathcam. Or paint his toenails. He's all yours.

[Mizzy]

In fact, this is exactly the kind of question I was referring to when arguing with PJ that not all revealed information is beneficial to the town. For this particular question, it seems like the mafia gains more by knowing the answer to this (for the purposes of making a kill overnight, assuming PJ isn't scum) than the town does (catching a tell in PJ, or more likely just being able to point and laugh after the game if he's wrong).

This is one of those canned responses to something that I hate seeing. If someone doesn't like a question or whatever, they call say, "Oh don't say that because it gives the scum information!" and 9 times out of 10, it's information the scum could figure out on their own and probably already have.

Every single thing we say gives information to the scum, and to be honest, most of the people who matter a great deal in terms of hidden role are probably already dead and the scum already know who they want dead next.

So I agree with Has, I think the question is a valid one, and an IMPORTANT one, if players are actually considering lynching Beep due to thinking she is scum.

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Beep! Beep!

so I can answer the question without her being hammered in the meantime. If she is scum then the scum gain nothing by me answering (because my answer will be completely contingent on her being town), and if she is town then the question is being asked in earnest. I will try to find time to reread the game under the assumption that Beep! Beep! is town, but I can't promise I will be able to do that any time soon.