Mafia 79 - "The Amish Mafia" GAME OVER... WHO WON?

[ZombieSlayer54]

/confirmzorsing

[ZombieSlayer54]

Dood. Next time, edit the topic name to let us know the game has started. Please?

And, also, Q21, why are you jumping on people for stating that they are random voting? Very bad reason to be jumping on people, you know...

FOS on Q21.

And, along those lines of logic Q21, why not vote for ValiantValant, so as to get a Mafia lynched?

And believe me, I have seen a random votes tally have that happen before.

[ZombieSlayer54]

FOS Riceballtail

Considering how much I defend myself, especially when I am town, I find VVs actions completely fine.

FOS Surye.

This random vote bandwagon is getting too serious. You seem to be supporting it.

And bandwagons never help anyone, besides Mafia. It is as bad as quicklynching.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Except when you go through with it, Surye.

Then it just ends up being a bad thing. Random voting without the intent of actually lynching whomever you hit is fine to start conversation. Actually intending to lynch someone via random vote is well, just plain stupid.

This game is about logic. Not luck.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Considering how many other votes Korts has, Surye, this seems like you want to push it over the edge.

FOS Riceballtail

Overreaction, as has been stated before.

EA: Because Korts is obviously joking with his vote?

Vote Mellowedman

Seriously? Enough with the VV wagoning.

HOS Riceballtail.

I have very rarely seen townies act scummy just for the sake of getting conversation going.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Turning a random vote into a bandwagon with five or more people on it, no matter the amount of people in the game, always seems reckless to me.

Just saying: Never bandwagon a random vote.

[ZombieSlayer54]

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Unvote, Vote: VV

See? A bandwagon was useful, it's cast you into WIFOM, broken logic, and probably ZS as scumbuddy.

Predictions: VV, ZS, and Korts as scum, in that order.

Defending someone automatically means that if they are scum, I am scum? Maybe I just do not see the logic that others give?

Of course, you could just have JDodge logic. I luv me sum JDodge logic.

When you defend someone with equally broken logic, yes, it's pretty likely.

Well, consider this.

If I WAS a Mafia, why would I defend a fellow who is obviously dooming himself? Would I not just let him die of his own stupidity, and maybe make it look like others were actually supporting him, rather than trying to defend him?

Oh, gag me with a WIFOM.

I didn't say you were acting like smart scum.

WIFOMs are, actually, quite a good strategy.

And always, ALWAYS presume that the scum who are playing are SMART scum. Stupid scum will always reveal themselves in one way or another. Besides that, always think that the scum is SMART. Doing otherwise will only lead to your downfall.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Let me explain what I mean by WIFOMs being a good strategy.

Say you have a WIFOM. Obviously, poisoned. However, any and all Mafia-related WIFOMs will have a poison which ONLY kills Mafia.

I.E. WIFOMs are used to make Mafia slip up. When used on a Townie, it will do nothing but show that they are a Townie, since they did not slip up. In fact, I can not think of a single instance where a WIFOM which I used against someone did not give me accurate results.

Wow, I don't know where to begin. This is so ass-backwards, a WIFOM is an information poison, which is ANTI TOWN not anti mafia. Either you really don't understand WIFOM, or you're digging you hole deeper and deeper.

Hand over the shovel, and let us lynch you. Now I'm serious about a ZS lynch.

Unvote, Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Prod Marmalade and Psychatrog please.

EA: Any form of bandwagon that gets even slightly large is reckless because there are two kinds of people who can push that bandwagon over the safe edge at an L-6 point.

1. Scum.

2. Townies who come in after not being around for a few days, decide to not read any of the pages, see who has the most votes, and then goes and votes for them.

Uh, sure? If VV is town and six scum/morons want to push his wagon to a speedy lynch, great, we subsequently lynch them all and we win. Unless the entire mafia is missing half their chromosomes, then VV's not in any danger and furthermore you need to quit being such a god damn baby over wagons that haven't even got halfway to lynch.

Who says it has to be a speedy lynch? Maybe they put their votes on subtly, maybe put some pressure on him with those votes, maybe say something he said was Mafia-esque, and use that to push the bandwagon to a lynch?

And besides, sometimes bandwagons that get that big, even if started innocently enough, can not be stopped.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Or maybe I just have different experiences than you.

WIFOMs, in my experience, have always served to make Mafia slip up, or Townie confirmation.

They have never led to a something anti-Town.

I'll explain again more carefully.

Town's only tool is logic.
Mafia's advantage is information.

We agree so far?

Okay, WIFOM is a way to throw logic into an infinite loop, distorting it to provide two mutually exclusive and opposite outcomes as nearly equal possibilities. This makes whatever information used to create the WIFOM useless. That is why it is bad, and always bad, for town.

For pro-mafia, WIFOM cannot make them slip up, because it's not actually claiming anything, it's just putting a possibility out there, but it can put them back in the position of monopoly on information.

But I suspect you know all of this, which is why my vote rests neatly on your head.

ZS, could you link to a game where WIFOM has allowed you to do either or those things? Failing that, a hypothetical example? I just find it really hard to see where you're coming from.

I would, but I imagine that those threads have been shrubbed by the site I had in mind by now.

And let me explain how a WIFOM would help the town:

You put a WIFOM in front of somebody. WIFOMs, if followed through with, will usually lead to debates as lengthy as the one where we got the term WIFOM from. And, last I checked, long discussions do only one thing in Mafia games: Make the Mafia slip up. If you are a Mafia who is dragged into a WIFOM, you will end up being "poisoned", so to say. If you are a Townie who is dragged into a WIFOM, your lack of slipping up after a few pages of debate, as far as I am concerned, will prove your innocence.

I find it really simple, actually.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

But it can easily become dangerous. That is my point.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS - you say WIFOM can help the town. You also say that logic is the town's only tool. WIFOM has no one logical result - hence doesn't allow the towns only tool to work - hence isn't good for town.

Also, you seem to be protecting VV with you defence of wifom.

unvote vote ZS, FoS VV as partner

*Sigh*

Ok, let me explain, again.

Yes, a WIFOM delivered by a Mafia will only result in the town being hurt, since it poisons the information pool.

While this will hurt the town, the Mafia who delivered the WIFOM will easily be discovered, as his WIFOM will not yield any results of any kind.

However, if a WIFOM is delivered by a Townie, it will prompt discussion from the person(s) it is delivered to. And, as we all know, discussion will ALWAYS help the town.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS. L-6? Not dangerous.

But it can easily become dangerous. That is my point.

L-6 doesn't become dangerous. If it becomes dangerous, it ceases being L-6.

That... Really... Makes no sense.

I mean, you said that L-6 can not become dangerous... But then you just said that if it DOES become dangerous...

Egh. Whatever.

FOS on Korts

, just because that hurt my head.

[ZombieSlayer54]

And actually, too much discussion can sow seeds of doubt amongst the townies.

So does not enough.

And that is why you need to find the appropriate balance of discussion.

Also, to someone who asked me if I suspected Q21 of being Mafia, why am I not voting him? Maybe because MM looks more like Mafia to me than Q21?

[ZombieSlayer54]

WIFOM leads to ambiguity. Ambiguity leads to confusion. Confusion is anti-town... always. This is the way WIFOM progresses if allowed to, regardless of who brings it up. Zombie has failed to produce a link for us (the games are conveniently gone) and his reasoning sucks, in my opinion. He has become lynch target number one.

Vote: ZombieSlayer54

Ok... When was the last time anyone did such a thing as produce a link to a game they participated in to prove something about the current game?

And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie. The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?

Because you want to get lynched? Taking one for the team no doubt.

UNVOTE

Vote: ZS

Don't worry, we'll see to it that your scum buddies follow shortly.[/b]

I was setting myself up for an insult, not for a lynch...

Read:

[quote="ZombieSlayer54]And I dun care what you think, I only care about what I know. And I know WIFOMs are generally good, when delivered by a townie.

The only time it is bad is if a stupid townie delivers it.

Dear God... Why did I just set myself up like that?[/quote]

See?

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Ok, Surye, besides this whole incident, what other evidence do you have to suggest I am a Mafia? If you do not have any other evidence, well, the only thing you should do in this incident is to presume I am a Townie, unless you have evidence outside of this incident to presume I am a Mafia.

Innocent until proven guilty applies here, you know.

Awh, that's so cute You think I'm going to presume you're town when you're using a strategy that is damaging when used by mafia.

Ok, look.

The point is is that you have no evidence that I am Mafia, besides this incident.

Therefore, in this incident, you should presume I am innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Seriously. Unless you do not believe in that, of course.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Ok, look.

The point is is that you have no evidence that I am Mafia, besides this incident.

Therefore, in this incident, you should presume I am innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Seriously. Unless you do not believe in that, of course.

This isn't the American justice system; the fact that a majority vote sentences a person to death should have tipped you off. Stop trying to extend inapplicable real world legal rights into this game, it won't work.

Ok, so, are you saying that we should presume that everyone is Mafia until they can come up with evidence that they are town?

Note: Burden of proof.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS: in mafia, as far as I gathered, it works the other way, i.e. guilty until proven innocent. Don't let that stop you, though.

So... You presume everyone is Mafia unless they can somehow prove they are town?

Innocent until proven guilty may or may not apply here, but I know that burden of proof applies to every debate.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS: in mafia, as far as I gathered, it works the other way, i.e. guilty until proven innocent. Don't let that stop you, though.

So... You presume everyone is Mafia unless they can somehow prove they are town?

Innocent until proven guilty may or may not apply here, but I know that burden of proof applies to every debate.

Not exactly. I'm equally suspicious of everyone at the beginning, because everyone may be guilty. My point was that noone should be considered innocent without proof. And thus we arrive at your point. I take it that you're saying we need proof to accuse someone. But we also need proof to consider someone town.

So we appear at a conundrum, and yet another WIFOM, which you folks are so suspicious of.

If I am a Mafia, then you are all screwed if you trust me.

If I am a Townie, then you are all somewhat screwed if you do not trust me.

So it all depends on which risk you would rather take, really. The latter seems like less of a risk, I understand. So I really can not say you are being illogical if you choose the former. But meh.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Ok, look.

The point is is that you have no evidence that I am Mafia, besides this incident.

Therefore, in this incident, you should presume I am innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty. Seriously. Unless you do not believe in that, of course.

Hey everyone. Sorry, I've been REALLY sick the past few days, and I posted in the Vacation/ Limited Access thread before. I'm just glad I did not catch Strep Throat.

I just reread the thread, and Zombieslayer's post here makes me think he is scum. He says there is only one evidence that he is mafia, so how is he innocent until proven guilty, if there is already evidence?

He is undoubtedly someone that is guilty.

unvote, vote ZombieSlayer54

I think... One vote until I am lynched?

Ok, what I was saying was was that, in this incident, you need evidence from outside of this incident which says I am guilty to use that incident to further prove my guilt. Since there is no evidence outside of that incident of my guilt, you can NOT use that incident to prove my guilt.

[ZombieSlayer54]

L-1, guys.

Wait...

*scratches head*

I thought it was L-1 NOW, since...

Wait, is it L-0?

In that case: Bah.

[ZombieSlayer54]

L-1, guys.

Wait...

*scratches head*

I thought it was L-1 NOW, since...

Wait, is it L-0?

In that case: Bah.

Yeah, that was L-1. Meh.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Evil, they already sent in the lynch vote. Even if I claimed, which I shall never, ever do in ANY Mafia game, it does not matter.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Wait huh?
Now I am confused. Did mellowed just hammer?

Yeah. I checked the votes myself.

[ZombieSlayer54]

Note: I never, ever claim. All claiming does is make people think you are desperate and trying to get out of a lynch.

[ZombieSlayer54]

WIFOMs delivered by a smart townie are useful, out-of-control random bandwagoning is harmful, and all claims do is make people think you are desperate.

[ZombieSlayer54]

WIFOMs delivered by a smart townie are useful, out-of-control random bandwagoning is harmful, and all claims do is make people think you are desperate.

Sounds reasonable, yeah. How do you ever survive Day 1?

Whenever I do not say anything.

[ZombieSlayer54]

WIFOMs delivered by a smart townie are useful, out-of-control random bandwagoning is harmful, and all claims do is make people think you are desperate.

Sounds reasonable, yeah. How do you ever survive Day 1?

Whenever I do not say anything.

So you lurk?

If I want to live, yes. But I never lurk. I would rather die and root out a few Mafia in the process than lurk and do nothing.

[ZombieSlayer54]

ZS: So long, and thanks for all the wine. Smart townies shouldn't have any need to use a WIFOM in the first place.

Also:

FoS: Mellow

Partly for hammering, partly excuse-lurking.

FoS: Babygirl

Also excuse lurking, although this time in advance.

Is there anything wrong with using every tool at your disposal?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Note: I never, ever claim. All claiming does is make people think you are desperate and trying to get out of a lynch.

wrong, wrong, wrong. everybody claims at l-1. in fact, refusing to claim is scummier, as it hints that you want to keep your role from the town.

Claiming always makes you seem desperate. Saying "IMMA COP! DUN LYNCH ME!" is just going to make people think you are saying that so they will not lynch you.

[ZombieSlayer54]

And, of course, if you actually ARE a cop, it's in the town's interests not to lynch you.

Yeah, but what reason would they have to trust me saying that?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Note: I never, ever claim. All claiming does is make people think you are desperate and trying to get out of a lynch.

wrong, wrong, wrong. everybody claims at l-1. in fact, refusing to claim is scummier, as it hints that you want to keep your role from the town.

Claiming always makes you seem desperate. Saying "IMMA COP! DUN LYNCH ME!" is just going to make people think you are saying that so they will not lynch you.

and saying "look, i'm not gonna claim, but you really shouldn't lynch me" makes you look like a dumbass mafia who can't think of a fakeclaim. or a jester.

When did I say "Do not lynch me"?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Because babygirl86 didn't unvote before voting, the day isn't over.

Amish Mafia votecount 1-3

Korts: babygirl86, Surye
Valiant Valant: ashmite84
nswhorse: The Fonz
Mellowed Man: Korts, mr. incrediball, ZombieSlayer54
Celebloki: Erratus Apathos
Erratus Apathos: nswhorse
ZombieSlayer54: Surye, Korts, Marmalade, Celebloki, Inquisitor JL, Evilgorrilaz, q21, Riceballtail, Mr. Incrediball, Mellowed Man

Not voting: Killa Seven, Marmalade, Psychatrog, Rigel, ValiantValant

Sorry for the several pages that passed without a votecount. I was at a

stupid stupid

Motel 6, which, in addition to lacking alarm clocks, does not have wifi!

Also, make sure to unvote before revoting.

Prodding Psychatrog per request on page 5.

*dances*

I AM NOT DEAD! I AM

NOT

DEAD.

Woot.

[ZombieSlayer54]

im here, been busy gettin bandwagoned in other games. ZS looks like the best lynch, i think hes allready hammered tho, i dont agree with his whole "i dont ever claim" thing, claiming helps the town not lynch a power role, and if its a fake claim the town will eventually find out anyways.

Once again, would you believe someone at L-1 when they say "IMMA COP"? Would you not think they are saying this for the express purpose of not getting lynched? And that they are not actually a cop?

[ZombieSlayer54]

Its not like he was going to claim or anything...

im here, been busy gettin bandwagoned in other games. ZS looks like the best lynch, i think hes allready hammered tho, i dont agree with his whole "i dont ever claim" thing, claiming helps the town not lynch a power role, and if its a fake claim the town will eventually find out anyways.

Once again, would you believe someone at L-1 when they say "IMMA COP"? Would you not think they are saying this for the express purpose of not getting lynched? And that they are not actually a cop?

Thing is, at L-1 a townie shouldn't fake claim. That leaves two options, either they are the role they're claiming or they're scum. If they are in fact the role in question then you want to keep them around. If they're scum then they're almost certainly going to get caught along the way when things strat to not add up.

And how many people actually will believe the former option?

Not that it matters now, since BabyGirl just hammered me.