Pick your Poison 3 (Game Over)

[Incognito]

Vote: Encryptor, Godfather, Rolecop

If people post and do a good job scum-hunting, then it shouldn't matter what power roles the scum have (except for the vig on their side).

[Incognito]

Also, Incognito is obvscum. Just sayin'.

Don't scare him until they've decided who the goon is.

Ironically the people who accuse me of being scum are often scum themselves.

[Incognito]

Vote: Encryptor

, plx.

[Incognito]

First of all, there's his scummy, useless statement that it doesn't matter what powers the scum have. Not only is this statement totally incorrect, it also seems like a lame justification for 1) voting for the rolecop, and 2) not actually contributing any reasons for voting the way he did. His throw-in mention that the vig was somehow an exception to this statement (why, exactly?) looks like an attempt to seem like he actually is contributing something.

I stand by my statement. It really

doesn't

matter what power roles the scum have as long as the town does a good job of scum hunting and remaining active within the game. The exception to that (as I mentioned in my first post) is the two-shot vigilante. Reasoning: The two-shot vig allows for the scum to take down more members of the town in a shorter period of time.

You've used vague terms to describe my first post like "scummy", "useless", and "incorrect" but failed to provide reasoning as to why it's scummy, useless, and incorrect. I'm assuming that's coming soon?

And then there's his second post, which is a hilariously bad attempt at excusing any "OMGUS" by claiming (ludicrously) that he's for some reason especially likely to be targetted by scum. Uh, yeah, sure.

Meta-game me and look for instances where I've been accused of being scum while I was aligned on the side of the town. You'll see that a pretty good majority of those times the scum themselves were doing the accusing.

Okay, the inconsistency in his first post makes this a decent bandwagon.

Good luck with that. You're a moron for following along with a bandwagon and argument that has no actual substance.

Vote: Coron

Obvscum trying too hard to push for the acquisition of a two-shot vig.

[Incognito]

No, Incognito, that doesn't explain your ridiculous assertion. Obviously the power roles

do

matter. Our power roles give us an advantage, and to say "Oh, it doesn't matter if the scum interfere with them, because we can win without them" is utterly ridiculous. I can only assume that that's your logic, by the way, because your "reasoning" doesn't explain anything except that *gasp* the vig is bad.

Well obviously you have a completely different opinion about the game of Mafia from me. I am of the opinion that a town can win even in a "Mountainous" situation if the town isn't lazy and it scum hunts correctly. The mafia vig-kill and the regular mafia kills are the only kills that are completely decided upon by the scum. Daytime lynches are decided on by both town and scum, obviously, but in order to be successful at outing scum, they require the members of the town to analyze the facts provided in thread to make rational decisions. All of this is also known as scum hunting, which is what I said in my first post.

Why don't you first explain why you don't think the scum having a daycop decreases our chances of winning the game?

Explained above.

"Useless" and "incorrect" are vague? How, exactly? "Useless" means that is without use. It does not contribute anything. It is unhelpful. I thought I made this rather clear. "Incorrect" means it is not correct. How is that vague? "Scummy" is indeed vague on its own, but I didn't just declare your post scummy with no explanation, did I?

They

are

vague when you don't explain

why

it is useless and incorrect (which, in this case, you completely failed to do). Look over your post again and point out to me how you explained that my first post was both useless and incorrect. Just because you say something is useless and incorrect doesn't mean it actually is unless you go forward and justify it.

I don't really care if scum happened to try to get you lynched once. Can you show me a meaningful trend of scum targetting you more than usual? Are you certain that this amazing claim (scum, numerically fewer, are more likely to find you scummy than town) is actually true? Can you postulate some reason why this might be so? Why do the scum single you out so? Why would I know to target you?

Stop trying to justify bullshit OMGUS.

I already told you what you need to do. I'm not going to go and do the grunt work for you and point out actual instances and then on top of that, answer those questions that you've posed for me when I told you to meta-game me on your own.

[Incognito]

Lol. An L-2 bandwagon on

page 5

of the thread for fairly ridiculous reasons while about one or two people haven't even gotten a chance to comment on anything? And only three people feel the need to question the validity of it? Yeah, I'm pretty much done posting in this game. You can either lynch me as unhelpful town or wait for the mod to find a replacement. This is bullshit.

[Incognito]

Sorry guys. That

was

pretty silly of me. I had a horrible day and coming on here to see an L-2 bandwagon on me for the reasons given was just a GREAT BIG bundle of sunshine.

Mod:

If you haven't found someone, do you mind if I stick around?

[Incognito]

/ignoring the comments that call me immature or anything else for abandoning the game. You're entitled to your own opinion about that. I'm back because I felt like shit for abandoning the game since Patrick-mod is a good friend, and I felt like I was being extremely rude for leaving his game like that especially when I had been looking forward to participating in this game for awhile.

Whether or not I end up getting D1 lynched is beyond me, but either way, I'll be making my opinions heard. First things first, it really bothers me that I was placed at L-2 so early in the game when there are still at least three players in this game (Flameaxe, starkmoon, and armlx) who have yet to really offer a good deal of input. Whether a wagon like this was on me or someone else, I pretty much would have made it a point to at least speak out about the wagon and make sure it didn't progress too quickly. From what I see, only JDodge, Marmalade, and Elmo actually spoke out about it.

Trying to catch up to speed here:

@Mellowed Man:

Ether has already questioned you about this but your response to her question still makes no sense to me. You mentioned the following:

OK:

I voted for you, truthfully, as a random stage vote, in all seriousness. At the same time, I picked your name randomly. Yes, this is a weak argument on my behalf, but 100% relevant.

in which you explained that you chose to vote for Ether as a "random vote" and that you picked her name "randomly". The reasoning you cited for voting for her was the following:

Vote: Ether

because she firmly voted for the two-shot vig role. BOO.

You placed a vote for her because she was one of the people who voted for the two-shot vig. Did you choose her name randomly from the four

other

people who also chose to vote for the two-shot vig or randomly from the entire player pool? Also, you obviously have voiced some suspicion towards the people who chose to vote for the two-shot vig. Therefore it would seem logical to me for you to actually wait for a

response

from Ether before switching over to my bandwagon. Why did you not wait for a response from Ether before switching over to my bandwagon?

The other thing that strikes me as off is the fact that you mention the following about switching over to my bandwagon:

When I read that he voted and proclaimed that he thought it did not matter what the scum roles were, I concluded that putting my vote there would not do any harm.

but yet I shared similar thoughts to you with regard to the two-shot vig (I, too, was opposed to allowing a two-shot vig in this game). To say that I didn't care

at all

about what scum roles were allowed in this game seems like a bit of a misrepresentation. And it's funny how I was directly opposed to the same scum role that you were opposed to but yet you somehow ended up hopping onto my bandwagon anyway.

Major pro-town points to Marmalade for Post 113 in which he votes for and FoS's two of the people who failed to explain their Incog-wagon votes.

@ashmite84:

You mentioned in 91 that you wanted to see the progression of the Incog/Sarcastro dialog before deciding what to do with your vote. But then in 121 you made it a point to solely use Dave's logic to switch your vote to me despite the fact that Dave's post was also a misrepresentation of my stance with respect to scum power roles and you placed me at L-2. Why did you not bother to wait until I actually responded again before placing me at L-2? Do you think that

page 5

of a thread is an appropriate time to place someone that close to lynch?

So yeah. Where am I currently? I still like my vote on Coron. I initially voted for him since he was the first person to suggest that a two-shot vig should be used in this game as opposed to the Encryptor. IMO, the two-shot vig is the strongest of the power roles offered in this game and should absolutely NOT be given to the scum since it allows for the scum to kill off even more members of the town than the regular scum NKs.

Aside from that, Coron's posts just seem completely out of the realm of this game. Instead of actually taking a stance and

commenting

on the progression of my wagon like others had done, he seemed to have completely disappeared from the thread. The last post that he made before I nearly decided to abandon was his post discussing why he thought the two-shot vig was a better choice than the Encryptor. And then finally when I did decide to abandon, he unvoted starkmoon for seemingly no reason whatsoever and

still

didn't bother commenting on anything that happened as of recent.

@Coron:

Why did you not bother to comment on the progression of my wagon or actually become involved in any form of scum-hunting? Also, what was the reason for your recent unvote?

Mod:

Please prod Flameaxe and starkmoon if you haven't already.

[Incognito]

Alternatively, can we just lynch Mellowed?

I've actually been waiting for a

number

of responses to my questions before deciding what to do with my vote. Depending on Mellowed's response, I'd probably be down with a Mellowed lynch too

(it would certainly be better than my lynch)

.

You're right though. This thread has gotten eerily quiet with the deadline getting progressively closer. Hopefully this should be even

more

indicative of my innocence.

[Incognito]

Part 2: You question my unvote but not my vote in the first place?

I was thinking the vote was a random one. Was there an actual reason you placed the vote in the first place? If so, why not wait until starkmoon began posting in the thread to remove the vote? In between the time that you voted for her and unvoted her, she had not posted since she was apparently on vacation. The unvote just stood out to me since it seemed completely isolated from everything else that was going on at the time.

[Incognito]

Mellowed Man, please answer the questions that I've asked. You haven't really fully answered them by mentioning that your Ether vote was random. I asked more specific questions than that.

[Incognito]

Hey Incog!

Hey, Xtoxm!

[Incognito]

I do admit it is suspicious that people seemed to "oppose" with open arms the Incognito bandwagon earlier. Mine has risen to 8 in a heartbeat, while that one seemed to be a "standstill-bandwagon."


Hee Hee.

Interesting. The bandwagon that grew on me actually reached eight votes on page 5 of the thread (which, I might add, surpassed your current bandwagon of only

seven

votes). Sarcastro's current vote on you

now

places you at L-2 so, like others, I, too, suggest that you claim.

About this:

Mellowed Man, please answer the questions that I've asked. You haven't really fully answered them by mentioning that your Ether vote was random. I asked more specific questions than that.

You only asked why I decided to hop onto your wagon after voting Ether. I just felt like it was a worthy bandwagon to start the game, and that is that.. Honestly, I cannot fathom or conceive or perceive or what-you-would-like-to-call-it why this is such a big dilemma.

I was asking if your "random" vote on Ether was drawn from a random selection from all of the players in the thread or if it was just from the players who voted for the two-shot vig. A number of times now you've mentioned that the vote was random, period. I'm guessing that you mean it was a random selection from all of the players then.

[Incognito]

Vote: Incognito

Yay! It's the new alphachick!

Coron and e_k are almost entirely certainly town.

Vote: q21

, let's do this day right this time.

What makes you think that both Coron and elvis_knits are almost certainly town?

I agree, if the mafia did know who the pro town players where the game would be a walk in the park for them, they would just kill of the pro town one by one, and then work on diverting attention from themselves and getting townies lynched. I think the possibility of the mafia knowing the pro town players is slim, thus

Fos elvis_knits

Why is what elvis_knits said deserving of an FoS?

P.S. Trying to catch up with games.

[Incognito]

I thought Incognito was scummy, but I also thought his wagon was scummy. As I've said, the latter was scaring me more and more even before Incognito cracked--but I wanted his reaction before I moved my vote. (He hadn't posted for a while; I would have considered it an associative tell with his wagoners had he failed to OMGUS. He failed that test, but his outburst led me to the conclusion that they weren't together anyway.)

Ether, this really makes no sense to me. Before the wagon on me even reached L-2, you said the following on Page 5 of the thread:

For example, Mellowed should hammer Incognito.

Serious suggestion.

How could a scummy-looking wagon on me scare you when you yourself were calling for my lynch fairly early on? The votes were piling on me at

your own

beckoning.

[Incognito]

I was still thinking about bussing at that point.

While talking about the possibility of me being a supersaint?

Hey--what

do

you think about q21?

I haven't formed a solid opinion about him yet. I didn't think his switch in opinion in post 54 was scummy on its own but his sudden switch from questioning both you and Sarcastro about your Incog-votes to hopping on with his own rendition of an Incog-vote shortly after was bothersome. He didn't do a bad job of explaining himself about his switch from vig to encryptor when he was taking some heat so meh, he's pretty much neutral to me right now.

Ahahahahaha we suck.

qft

Vote

:

scotmany12

Is there any reason in particular that you're voting for scotmany12?

Vote: Flameaxe

Would any of the non-voters care to join me on a mid day 2 lurker wagon?

[Incognito]

Thanks. Are you scum again, as usual?

[Incognito]

But I do fully endorse my own lynch. We need to follow Incog's logic, it never fails...


>_<

Pretty much. I'm like 2 for 2 against you. Rofl.

[Incognito]

Yes. Now we play the waiting game to see when your buddies decide to bus you.

[Incognito]

Yes. Now we play the waiting game to see when your buddies decide to bus you.

Geez, Incognita (ah memories), it's like you're

trying

to get rid of townies or something.

What makes you think that Flameaxe is town?

[Incognito]

I'm being thick as hell this game. I understand the method to your madness now.

Unvote; Vote: Dave

Dave pretty much needs to die.

[Incognito]

I'm being thick as hell this game. I understand the method to your madness now.

Unvote; Vote: Dave

Dave pretty much needs to die.

Do you think I feel Flameaxe is town for the same reasons I all but know Coron and e_k are?

Nope, the reasoning is different, but I do understand what you're getting at.

[Incognito]

With Dave at L-2 is it time where we start thinking about who should hammer him if it come to that? Personally I think Elmo should.

I could go for Elmo hammering as well.

[Incognito]

Unvote

Dave, why the hell are you self-voting?

The veil of secrecy around Elvis, Coron and especially Flameaxe goes completely over my head. Would it hurt to spell your reads out?

I guess it doesn't hurt. It seems like it's pretty much common knowledge now so I don't see why it should remain a secret anymore and perhaps it could be better evaluated when it's in the forefront.

JDodge's point has to do with what elvis_knits and Coron said when they first entered the thread. elvis_knits said the following:

Probably because scum know if/who the super saint is.

If she was scum, she would know that the scum don't know who the supersaint is. So by saying what she said above, she is most likely town.

JDodge's point about Coron doesn't make as much sense to me, but I guess it's something similar to what elvis_knits did.

Lastly, JDodge's point about Flameaxe is the fact that he needed a prod just to begin posting because he forgot to put this thread in "Watched Topics". You would think that with the Encryptor existing in this game Flameaxe most likely wouldn't need a prod just to begin posting. One of his scum buddies would probably do the whole "Pssstt, get your act together and post, plz" thing via private message.

[Incognito]

Damnit Incog, there was no reason for that to be spelled out clearly like that.

And my point about Flameaxe is not that.

q21, you are to take your vote off of Dave until we need you to hammer. That is all.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're not scum, then I'm sure the scum would have already deciphered that even without me spelling it out that clearly.

[Incognito]

Incognito, why didn't you question JDodge about Coron?

It seemed pretty obvious to me that even if I

did

question JDodge about Coron, he still wouldn't yield his information. I never cleared Coron though; I was voting him through Day 1 because he hasn't done much this game, and I would gladly vote for him again today since he

still

hasn't done much this game.

Why aren't you voting Xtoxm?

My reads of people are badly in flux. Flameaxe is doing exactly what I would expect him to do as scum but yet JDodge thinks he's cleared for different reasons than I've mentioned.

JDodge, what are the reasons you have for Flameaxe being town if it's not the reasons I've listed? I don't care much for your secretiveness.

Speaking of Xtoxm though, Xtoxm, is there any reason you didn't do some kind of a summary upon entering the game as a replacement?

Ether, I forgot to question you about this:

By the way, I think Elmo is less likely to be scum and more likely to be pulling a stupid "hey don't nightkill me" routine.

The correct response is to nightkill him. Just saying.

Why do you think Elmo is less likely to be scum than what you've mentioned above? Have you seen Elmo do this before as town?

[Incognito]

That's not an answer. Asking Xtoxm about some lame failure to summarize isn't an answer, either. Why is your read of

Xtoxm

badly in flux?

Because his contribution so far hasn't been so bad that I could go forward and definitively label him as scummy. Since he's entered the game, he has been commenting on game-related stuff even if his contribution has been short and sweet. I

would

compare his contribution here to another game where I pinpointed him as scum on Day 1 but that game is currently ongoing.

I'm being thick as hell this game. I understand the method to your madness now.

Unvote

Flameaxe is doing exactly what I would expect him to do as scum but yet JDodge thinks he's cleared for different reasons than I've mentioned.

You don't think he's cleared?

scotmany12 brought up a good point about the Flameaxe situation, and JDodge wasn't clearing Flameaxe according to the reasons that I had listed. So no, I've changed my mind and currently don't think he's cleared. I am human, after all.

[Incognito]

Uh, Incognito--why didn't you question JDodge about Coron just now, when you were questioning him about Flameaxe?

Uh, Ether, seriously:

Coron and e_k are almost entirely certainly town.

Vote: q21

, let's do this day right this time.

What makes you think that both Coron and elvis_knits are almost certainly town?

You're a bit dense, Incognita. I'm not telling why as it should be incredibly obvious - no need to draw attention to it.

Now more than one person is questioning him about it and still he's not replying. Is this my fault too?

I believe the ongoing game you spoke of just ended. The generalization lodged in my mind is "Xtoxm puts effort in as town but not as scum." I associate "effort" with "names," mostly. Is my meta inaccurate?

This post summarizes my thoughts quite nicely: Post 118 in NG 581.

In other news, I'd like to see Dave's responses to my questions, but I really don't think I'll be supporting a Dave lynch. His self-vote makes me think twice about him being scum; I've seen a few instances where Newbie players have self-voted not to the point of hammering but to the point of bringing themselves close to hammer and in each instance, it has come from town. There's like about four people (Coron, Flameaxe, Elmo, and Sarcastro) all of whom are experienced players and are completely flying under the radar. And I almost forgot

Marmalade

was even playing. So yeah, these other people need to post and by post, I mean something more than these shitty one-liners.

Have you read Incog's posts?

That is all

I only explained my interpretation of the reasoning behind elvis_knits and Flameaxe. She's asking for Coron specifically, which I mentioned, I didn't completely understand.

[Incognito]

I notice Ether is still PO'ed about confirming townies. Cool.

I feel like Dave is not coming back after he voted himself. Might as well get the show on the road.

unvote; vote Dave

Do you actually think Dave is scum or are you voting for him just to move the day forward?

[Incognito]

This is why I have repeated, two times over, that you need to

read

, specifically Incog's posts.

Why my posts though? What is it about my posts that helps for you to see this?

Flameaxe is obv town this game. Your vote is bad.

armlx, maybe you could explain why he's obv town?

[Incognito]

...having said that, let's

vote: Xtoxm

again. And if he's scum, Incognito's answers to me feel avoidant--let's lynch him next.

How do they feel avoidant? I pointed to a specific portion of another thread to show you my exact feelings about Xtoxm-town and Xtoxm-scum and why I'm not ready to form a conclusion about his alignment just yet. Did you in fact

read

through the games that I linked to in that post?

[Incognito]

Xtoxm is scum.

Incognito is scum.

This is not a drill.

Linking people without any knowledge of alignments is pretty silly. I've already said why I have no read of Xtoxm and you're not going to force me to manufacture one just because you think I'm wrong. He's been providing his own thoughts with respect to the game, and he's voted for the people who he's been suspicious of. In NG 581 which I linked to, his posts just seemed more theoretical and completely outside of the realm of the game. If you would like to continue voting for him, then that's fine with me but you're not going to force me to do so by accusing me of being scum.

[Incognito]

Incog: Your criteria for Xtoxm-scum seem to revolve around him being noticeably less vocal than Xtoxm-town, is that a fair description of your view in NG 581?

Yes, pretty much. I also played with him in Daytalk where he replaced in as scum along with me and all he did there was provide some kind of summary of the players and remain quiet until we quick-hammered.

Do you feel he has been vocal so far? Do you think his meta still holds true, given that he evidently knows about it at this point? Do you feel others are being premature in their stance towards Xtoxm?

I feel he's been more vocal here than I would expect him to be as scum. In Mini 539, I also felt like he may have been actively lurking since he seemed to just be answering questions posed to other players but he turned out to be town there also. As far as the current meta, I suppose he could have improved his play. I notice others are citing Winter-een-mas Mafia... was that his last game as scum? I haven't read through it yet since I just got back from a long weekend, but I'll check through it when I get a chance tomorrow.

[Incognito]

So yeah, my vote stays on Dave. I would not be completely adverse to an Incog lynch, either.

Any reason why? I don't remember you mentioning much about me. Also, what did you think of Dave's self-vote?

[Incognito]

So there is a better reason to unvote other than a person looks less like scum? Is there a better reason to vote other than they look like scum? Please explan.

The 2nd part doesn't proces as a declarative sentence.

This makes no sense though. What has Flameaxe done differently from the time that you placed a vote on him and the time that you decided to switch your vote over to scotmany12? His play looks exactly the same with the only difference being Flameaxe was accumulating a couple of votes at the time.

Vote: Coron

I'm really not buying Coron as town.

[Incognito]

Anyone

disputing Coron's towniness today

really

needs a good and swift kick in the ass. And a pair of reading glasses.

Well then pass me a pair and kick me really fucking hard because I'm not seeing it.

[Incognito]

Ether, what do you think of the q21 wagon? Are you still reading q21 as town?

[Incognito]

What he said. You?

I dislike the q21 wagon, and I don't think he's scum here. I think his wagon has turned into a wagon of convenience at this point. I especially don't like the fact that I'm being urged to hammer him by certain people. This game has been really hard to get into because the two main wagons that have existed in this game (mine and q21's) seemed to originate out of nowhere and no matter what he or I've said, they've still existed. I think people are just trying to get a lynch in without actually thinking about what's going on. If I do hammer and if he is town, I'm kinda hoping he's a supersaint just so I could get the hell out of this game already.

[Incognito]

To me, his posts come off more as frustrated town rather than trapped scumbag.

[Incognito]

What about Armlx?

Page 22 was really bad. He created his list of probable scum here:

q21
ether
xtoxm
Farside
Jdodge

If these fail, Elmo and Sarc are my outside shots. Mainly based on elimination I find town, but meh.

in which he listed Elmo and Sarcastro as outside shots if any of the above in his list failed. In his very next post he completely contradicts himself by mentioning the following about Xtoxm (a person he listed in his probable scum list):

I wasn't a fan of the xtoxm wagon as it was occurring or now still, but I feel if q21 is a SS he is the right person to hammer by more or less default.

In 531 he removes a few people from his list and inserts a few people in place of those people he removed. Probably the most notable of those removed people being farside22 citing that she "sounds like what he'd expect her to sound like as town" despite the fact that she hasn't even really said anything aside from her vote on me (me being one of the people whom he found to be town). In that same post he labels Elmo as extremely pro-town for defending me but in his initial probable scum list Elmo was right alongside Sarcastro as his outside shot. Then he says some other stuff after that in his next two posts on that page that again completely contradict what he had been saying about the people whom he found likely to be town. Heh, yeah, I could go for an armlx lynch.

Unvote; Vote: armlx

Why did you ask me specifically?

I asked you specifically because you were one of the few people who came outright and said that q21 was town very early on. I figured that you might have had something to say about the people who occupied the q21 L-1 wagon. And I've already tried to have someone other than q21 lynched (Coron) but nobody really seems to be paying attention to the content from this game. People just seem to jump on the wagon of a person without mentioning much about anyone else and then disappear from the thread only to check in at some point to question why a person hasn't been lynched yet. I don't know if this is typical of large games but meh, it's kinda dumb if you ask me.

[Incognito]

What was it about farside though that you found to be protown? I can't imagine you developing enough of a read on her after only about 4 posts of content to completely remove her from your scum list let alone place her there to begin with.

[Incognito]

WTG, guys.

Vote: armlx

Huge FoS: Flameaxe

[Incognito]

Anyway, yeah, Incognito is scum.

What does NG 592 have to do with this?

I'll admit this PYP game isn't exactly my best performance as town, and yeah, I could see why I might be coming across as scummy. I'll try to get more involved in this game; I've just been having a really, really difficult time with it, and I just can't seem to shake it lol.

[Incognito]

Actually, I don't think Ether is scum, and I still think you're probably scum along with Flameaxe. Ether-scum would be a lot more lurker-ish/waffly than she has been in this game unless she's suddenly become better at it.

[Incognito]

What does NG 592 have to do with this?

It's a further view into your meta on Xtoxm. I compared his total posts in each game on--May 9th sounds about right. I noted that he'd replaced into that game 8 days later than this one (seven if you ignore the night phase here) and made like three times as many posts. And many of those were content.

I know that poking at lurkers is an area you normally shine in, and you've caught him before, so in this light, your lowered standard seems particularly unnatural. (I've already made as much of this case as I could without referring to the then-ongoing game.)

First of all, you're comparing a Newbie game to a Large game. IMO, most people will typically make more posts in a Newbie game than a Large game since there are fewer people in Newbie games which basically allows for singular players to be more prolific than they would be in larger set-ups. So I don't find it surprising that Xtoxm made more posts in that game since he replaced in when we were down to... 7 players or so. In NG 581 (which I linked to previously), his posting frequency was much, much,

much

lower than I was ever used to especially coming from a Newbie game. Hence I was able to catch him more easily.

Second of all, I have been poking at lurkers this game. There's actually quite a few of them, and it's fucking impossible for me to poke at all of them at the same time. Can we run down the list? DGB, Gorrad, Sarcastro, Xtoxm (if you'd like to include him), farside22, Coron, Flameaxe, Elmo... I mean seriously. The fact that I've voted for two of them this game (Coron and Flameaxe) should show that I have been trying to push for more content from them. It's funny that you mention the power role thing with respect to Xtoxm because I was thinking the exact same thing with respect to Coron since my vote on him never caught wind; people just seemed to ignore it.

Anyway, like I've mentioned before, I really don't think Xtoxm is scum in this game and that's why I haven't voted for him. I should note also that I haven't been on any of the wagons for any of the townies who have died thus far in this game and yet you still hold me as the scummiest of the game which is really quite laughable. 10 bucks someone points that out as a scumtell too. I'm going to be rereading with that type of wagon analysis specifically in mind.

[Incognito]

Incog should hammer

(because if Xtoxm is a Supersaint, we could nail two townspeople in one shot).

Fixed.

[Incognito]

Excuse me, but what's scummy about a "hissy fit"? Do you actually think that scum are more likely to act in that way than town? If so, can you cite specific examples from previous games you've been in that display that to be true? Because otherwise, I think you're talking out of your ass.

[Incognito]

This was a serious question, and I'd like for you to answer it:

Excuse me, but what's scummy about a "hissy fit"? Do you actually think that scum are more likely to act in that way than town? If so, can you cite specific examples from previous games you've been in that display that to be true? Because otherwise, I think you're talking out of your ass.

Anyway, this was the largest wagon that formed on me all game that happened during Day 1:

Incognito (8) --

Ether (alignment unknown)

,

Sarcastro (alignment unknown)

, q21 (town), Mellowed Man (town), babygirl86 (town),

Dave (alignment unknown)

, mr. incrediball (town), ashmite84 (alignment unknown and now Xtoxm)

This was the end of Day 1 wagon that formed on Mellowed Man:

Mellowed Man (10) --

Ether (alignment unknown)

, Elmo (alignment unknown),

armlx (alignment unknown)

, q21 (town), mr. incrediball (town),

Flameaxe (alignment unknown)

, babygirl86 (town),

Sarcastro (alignment unknown)

, Coron (alignment unknown),

Dave (alignment unknown)

This was the end of Day 2 wagon that formed on q21:

q21 (8) -- scotmany12 (alignment unknown), JDodge (town),

Sarcastro (alignment unknown)

, DrippingGoofball (alignment unknown subbed in for Marmalade), elvis_knits (alignment unknown subbed in for Inquisitor), farside22 (alignment unknown subbed in for starkmoon),

Flameaxe (alignment unknown)

,

armlx (alignment unknown)

The common denominator of the "alignment unknowns" on all of these wagons has been bolded in red.

The common denominator of the "alignment unknowns" on two of these wagons have been bolded in blue.

If you ask me, I think Sarcastro, armlx, or Flameaxe would make excellent lynches for today based on the fact that they've been on these wagons and haven't done a very good job of convincing me that they're town anyway. I still think Ether is likely town based on her play in this game thus far, and I'm still waiting for

something

from Gorrad to get a better feel for what Dave might have been doing within this game. I still feel like his self-vote in response to the votes that accumulated on him is more likely to come from newb town rather than newb scum though. farside22 feels really scummy to me thus far as do Coron and DGB. I'd certainly like to see much more from each of them as well.

[Incognito]

I was prodded. I'll put together a post later when I'm back from work.

[Incognito]

Hmmm, anyway, about that wagon stuff: The reason why I only included the wagons that I did is because those are the only wagons that either led to a lynch or had the potential to lead to a lynch and were wagons on people whom I know are town (myself included). I don't see what's so problematic about this. If I left out any other wagons on known townies, then it was by mistake.

Anyway, Xtoxm did lie, and his posting frequency has become much lower in this game than I would expect from Xtoxm-town. I don't see why you guys are waiting for me to hammer if the majority seems to think he's scum; there's about two or three other people off the wagon who mentioned that they thought Xtoxm was scum who could have been hammered by now. Even with the supersaint threat, if you're that confident about your suspicions, you could most certainly hammer.

Elmo, is there any particular reason why you're voting for me? You and armlx made it a point to mention that I'm town in this game but yet you decided to vote for me instead of just hammering Xtoxm. Why?

[Incognito]

Just stay voting. I would like an answer from Elmo before I go ahead and hammer. If Xtoxm is an SS, I actually

want

to be SS'ed.

[Incognito]

lol.

[Incognito]

Ha.

Anyway, as promised, I'll be laying down the hammer. If I end up dead because of this, all I can say is I told ya so. Look over my posts and please do me a favor and grill the shit out of these lurkers/non-content providers already. Thank you.

Unvote; Vote: Xtoxm

[Incognito]

Meh. Fine.

What does "meh. fine." mean? Do you really believe I'm scum or are you just going along with Sarcastro's vote for the hell of it?

Not to get all WIFOM-y BUT the fact that Xtoxm ended up being just a Mafia Goon instead of that scum power role that you theorized about might just indicate that I'm not scum in this game. I mean, looking back on earlier play, ashmite84 (the person Xtoxm replaced) actually placed me at L-2 while QFT-ing Dave. Also, the fact that ashmite84 was given the role of Mafia Goon by the scum might just be suggestive that the rest of the scum are experienced players. Thus, I think Dave/Gorrad is town (he seems like he might be a good choice for being given the role of Mafia Goon, if you think about it). Marmalade/DGB might be town for the same reasons.

[Incognito]

Actually, the same might not be as true for Marmalade/DGB as it is for Dave/Gorrad. No offense to Dave, but he wasn't exactly the best of players, and I think ashmite might have actually been a better player than Dave was so Dave might have been a better person to receive the role of Goon than ashmite if Dave was scum. The scum may have figured that Marmalade was better than ashmite or something along those lines and may have given him a power role instead of the Goon role.

[Incognito]

You guys want a really, really, really good bandwagon?

Vote: Sarcastro

This early exchange between ashmite and Sarcastro reeks of scum attempting to link his scumbuddy with town:

I'm keen to see how the Sarcastro / Incognito exchange plays out before I comment.

Translation: you're his scumbuddy and you'll only bus him if you're sure that I can convince the town. Good to know.

I'm keen to see how the Sarcastro / Incognito exchange plays out before I comment.

Translation: you're his scumbuddy and you'll only bus him if you're sure that I can convince the town. Good to know.

Nah, just trying to decide if it's some grade A distancing, a misunderstandng between 2 townies, you've got his number or you're trying to start a wagon. And besides which it's very entertaining

Sarcastro even took this idea further when Xtoxm replaced in suggesting along with Ether that Xtoxm might be a scum power role here after Ether explained it to him:

Sarcastro, can we deal with him later? Xtoxm is much more likely to hold a power role.

Hm, perhaps. Why do you think he's more likely to be a power role, though?

The above post almost seems like Sarcastro knew that Xtoxm actually

didn't

have a scum power role. Then there was this post from Sarc directly afterwards:

Oh no! He's onto us, Ether! I knew we shouldn't have conspired to lynch power roles in the thread!

Anyway, I guess I'm okay with a Xtoxm lynch. If a bandwagon on him gets going, I'll switch over.

Want a real translation? "I will only bus my buddy if a good, solid bandwagon gets going on him otherwise I'd rather keep my vote on Incog-town. Then when Incog is lynched and shows up town, Xtoxm might be cleared."

And now that Xtoxm was revealed to not have a scum power role, Sarcastro is still attempting to push for my lynch without even considering all of the facts. Let's also not forget the fact that Sarcastro has been active lurking all game and has had a VERY strong tendency to push the bandwagons of people who have shown up as town.

[Incognito]

And now that Xtoxm was revealed to not have a scum power role, Sarcastro is still attempting to push for my lynch without even considering all of the facts.

I'll probably find an answer to this in my reread, but what does xtoxm not being a power role have anything to do with it? Sarc found you scummy from the very beginning, why would xtoxm showing up as a goon change anything?

Ether found me scummy from the beginning as well, but she's recently mentioned in one of her last posts that she is thinking about what Xtoxm showing up as a Goon and not a power role might entail with respect to my alignment.

The point I'm getting at is Ether suggested that I might have been siding/defending Xtoxm because he and I were scum with one another, and he held a power role -> hence Incog-scum wanted to protect him. And Sarcastro happily agreed with Ether's deduction. The fact that Xtoxm came up as a Goon instead of a mafia power role though should at least suggest that my defense of Xtoxm was genuine and actually related to how I was reading him, i.e. I defended him because I simply didn't think he was scum in this game and not because I am scum and he was a scum power role. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anyway, more Sarcastro votes, plx!!!

[Incognito]

Hi. Reading what I've missed. Didn't realize people were posting in here again. Ether, you're up early.

[Incognito]

Hm. The funny thing is there's only three people whom I've played with in games to completion before in this game: Ether, Gorrad, and Flameaxe. Ether and Gorrad have played with me before when I was town in Portal Mafia and Flameaxe... we've never been on the same side in any of our past games (he's always been scum while I've been town). I myself will admit that my play in this game has been atypical; the fact that both Ether and Gorrad are voting me for it gives me a good town vibe, especially from Ether since she's actually gone to great lengths to show why my play here has been atypical.

Elmo, armlx, and now to a certain extent Coron have been defending me a bit. I've never played with any of them before so I suppose there's two possibilities for them: they're either town who think I'm also town or scum who are buddying up to me. I don't think all three of them are scum, but I'd bet at least one of them is.

Sarcastro is still scum for the reasons I've highlighted. I'll go a bit further into my logic behind this later.

Um, Marmalade didn't give me a bad vibe at all; in fact I believe I labeled him as town previously. I'm not sure what to make of his replacement DGB.

I know there are a few others whom I've missed, and I'll try to make a more thorough post later. Just don't have the time right now.

[Incognito]

Oh yeah... I vigged you. x_x Bbl.

[Incognito]

unvote; vote: armlx

sarcastro = tomorrow

[Incognito]

Ether, why exactly don't you find Sarcastro scummy?

[Incognito]

This:

Votecount

Incognito (2) -- Sarcastro, Gorrad
Ether (1) -- armlx
Sarcastro (1) -- Elmo
armlx (4) -- Ether, scotmany12, DrippingGoofball, Incognito
DrippingGoofball (1) -- farside22

Not voting: Flameaxe, Coron
11 alive, 6 to lynch.

[Incognito]

There's a distinct difference between Elmo's play and Sarcastro's play in this game though. I get the feeling from Elmo's posts that he is at least reading the thread and updating his suspicions accordingly while Sarcastro appears to be popping in every once in awhile to nudge whatever wagon he was on without adding anything new.

Mental exercise for you: Imagine that I'm town

(Yes, I know this might be hard lol ).

Do you really think Sarcastro's "scumdar" has been that far off this game that he's led that many charges against townies as a townie? And yeah, I know that people can be way off about their suspicions as town but seriously, this many times with as much tenacity as he's shown? To me it looks like he's just been persistently knocking off town to achieve an end result; not actually believing in these suspicions to try and kill off scum.

And no, I have no clue what question you're about to ask so ask away.

[Incognito]

Not sure what to think of Incog hopping on the wagon, seems very self-preservation orientated, though whether or not that is scummy is debatable.

I wouldn't really call it self-preservationist since I had been voting for you yesterday before placing the hammer on Xtoxm. Some of your reads when I last voted for you looked a bit contrived, and I thought that was worthy of a vote.

[Incognito]

I agree with Coron and Sarc being on your list, disagree about Ether being there, and am not sure about DGB. Marmalade didn't really come across as scummy to me even though he was limited in posts. Basically the third is a toss-up between you and farside. Probably would be most comfortable with a Sarc lynch but aside from Elmo, it seems like others are unwilling to vote for him.

[Incognito]

Actually armlx, have you ever played with Ether before this game?

[Incognito]

Woah woah woah wait. Not ready for a hammer as I have some stuff to add when I get home.

Unvote

[Incognito]

Oh come on, Incognito. Are you really going to use a burden of proficiency argument on

me

? I'm not exactly Glork, you know. I make mistakes, just like everybody else, and sometimes it just so happens that my suspicions, even suspicions that I am very vocal about, are wrong a few times in a row. Why, exactly, do you think I'm just "knocking off town" rather than simply being incorrect? You haven't really given a good reason.

It's not really a burden of proficiency argument. I'm arguing the fact that the major wagons that you've pushed with

fairly great fervor

have all been on town or people I believe to be town (Dave/Gorrad) when compared to the one wagon that you got correct in Xtoxm which you seemed

more reluctant to join

: Compare these votes and positions:

I'm pleased to see that you're finally getting your act together. Good job, everyone.

Unvote, Vote: Mellowed Man

Claim please.

So we're killing Dave? Cool. Incognito and q21 can wait until later, then.

Unvote, Vote: Dave

These are good questions, but I'm going to choose to dismiss them regardless.

Unvote, Vote: q21

Vote: Incognito

Please, let's make this one faster.

with this:

Anyway,

I guess I'm okay with a Xtoxm lynch.

If a bandwagon on him gets going, I'll switch over.

Oh, I guess there is a good bandwagon already.

Unvote, Vote: Xtoxm

Each of the other votes and posts seemed like you were expressing confidence with your votes and the one wagon you did join correctly, you mentioned "I guess I'm okay with a Xtoxm lynch". That's a fairly drastic difference from your previous posts that I've quoted above. That's why I say that your posts seem like attempts to

knock off town

rather than just you possibly being wrong about your suspicions.

@Ether:

I don't think armlx and farside22 are scum with one another; I think they're more likely to be mutually exclusive scum. Of the two, I feel more confident about armlx being the scum rather than farside22.

Anyway, I just wanted to get that reply into Sarcastro before allowing a hammer to happen. I'll go back with this:

Vote: armlx

Woah woah woah wait. Not ready for a hammer as I have some stuff to add when I get home.

Unvote

Why am I not surprised?

What do you mean by this, Gorrad?

[Incognito]

As for Xtoxm, I just didn't feel very confident about him. He didn't seem scummy to me at first glance, but Ether made a decent case and I don't like to set my standards too high when it comes to joining bandwagons, because that's one of the things that really slows down games. That Xtoxm happened to be scum was coincidence (though I think it goes to show that my policy can be a good one).

What Ether-case are you talking about exactly? You hopped onto the Xtoxm bandwagon after Ether mentioned something about the possibility that Xtoxm held a pro-scum power role and because there was already a decent bandwagon on him (as quoted above). That wasn't the primary case against Xtoxm; that was a secondary Ether "case" that was built on the supposition that a hypothetical Incog-scum was unwilling to bus his scum buddy. The actual

case

against Xtoxm was that his decreased posting frequency and lack of attack against people didn't fall in line with his pro-town meta to which you had no comment.

Anyway, I have a tendency to push my suspicions fairly strongly also but I fail to see how you, a person who didn't even seem to be reading the thread, could feel that confident about your suspicions when you weren't involved in actions during real time. In your opinion why was Mellowed Man scummy? Why was Dave scummy? Why was q21 scummy? But then why was Xtoxm not scummy to you at first glance?

[Incognito]

Yes, I changed my mind when Farside made the supersaint statement. Same for you? In fact, I don't think she's scum without him, either.

Not exactly. If armlx is scum, then I wouldn't expect a farside-scum to defend him the way she has. I would think she'd be more likely to throw him under the bus by now since he's been close to a lynch for quite some time.

I'm shocked that you still would like to see me lynched. Do you not have any comments about the exchange had between Sarcastro and I or the case I've made against him?

[Incognito]

So... deadline's in six days. Anyone gonna hammer or what?

[Incognito]

Vote: Incognito

. Let's not let this one slip through our fingers. Incog today,

Elmo

LyLo tomorrow.

Fixed for ya.

Vote: Sarcastro

See my previous case against him.

Gorrad, what exactly is your case against Elmo? I don't remember you even mentioning him in your scum grouping.

[Incognito]

Right. I forgot about that 860 case. So what was the change between 860 and this post:

The three scum are somewhere in [Incognito, Armlx, DGB, Scotmany]. Just an FYI.

[Incognito]

The funny thing is Coron's most likely town matches scotmany's most likely scum rofl.

I'm reading. I should have something soon.

[Incognito]

Okay, sorry for the long absence. As promised though, here is a bit of content. I might do this in a series of sections to try and get my thoughts out there.

Xtoxm's Wagon

First, it's interesting to note who began the wagon: scotmany12. Mind you Xtoxm wasn't a power role so bussing could have been possible but scotmany12's vote didn't have a bussing feel to it IMO. scotmany12 mentioned a number of times the day before his vote that he wanted Xtoxm to hammer q21 in the event that q21 was the supersaint which indicates that scotmany12 did find Xtoxm to be scummy. And Xtoxm wasn't really in danger of being lynched so bussing seems implausible. Since Xtoxm refused, scotmany12 decided to vote for him. Fine. So based on this, I'm leaning town on scotmany12. Ether-town eventually followed suit with her own vote as did elvis_knits-town, and armlx-town. This leads me to believe even further that scotmany12 is likely town. Eventually Sarcastro placed his vote (I've covered previously why I thought this vote looked really bad in retrospect) and farside22 also placed her vote. Here's farside22's vote:

Well I think xtomx is being way too quiet this game. He hasn't done anything he normally does when he is a townie. He is more aggressive and talkative.
I think incog or armix should hammer. I'm thinking incog at this point because of his day 1 hissy fit.

vote: xtoxm

Again, this vote seems semi-decent. She mentioned that she wanted me to hammer so if farside22 was scum, she would have known that Xtoxm wasn't a supersaint so from my perspective, I'd think her post makes her seem town. Her comment about supersaints in general also gave me a town feel here:

Why I'm inclinced to believe SS in the game:

During the pregame stage, the mafia will talk in private, and must select a number of protown poweroles, adding up to a total of 12 points
The mafia may, if they so wish, give the town more than 12 points worth of power

Supersaint: 1 point
Masoniser: 2 points
Advanced Masoniser: 3 points
Doctor: 3 points
Weak Doctor: 3 points
Hider: 3 points
Jack of All Trades: 3 points
Cop: 5 points



17) Mellowed Man - Hider - lynched day 1 - 3 points
16) babygirl86 - Cop - killed night 1 - 5 points
14) mr. incrediball - Hider - killed night 1 - 3 points

This leave 1 point to lose. Now mind you it does say the scum can give more then 12 points, but I can't see that happening.
Also when he was asked to hammer this is his response:

Sure. Can do.

Unvote.

I would think just like you reacted to the idea of a hammer on someone there would be some type of protest or something that says oh hell no, but that didn't happen. So please explain his williness to me.

and here:

I already explained. Refusing would have been a scummy act.

You squawked at doing a hammer when asked. You don't think others didn't say they shouldn't hammer? I see a few others who didn't think they should have to hammer.
The only other thing I can think of that would make Armix willing to hammer is if he is scum and knows there isn't a SS.

So yeah, I'm chalking farside22 up to probable town at this point.

The remainder of the Xtoxm wagon was filled with Flameaxe who placed the L-1 vote and then me who hammered. I believe early on Xtoxm, when under very little pressure and scrutiny, did place a vote on Flameaxe and actually wanted him lynched. Barring distancing, I think this actually makes Flameaxe look pretty decent as well. Yes, he's been useless and from my experience with Flameaxe the only times I've seen him being completely useless are when he's also been scum but this does give me a semi-decent feel also.

So with this Xtoxm-wagon analysis, my tentative town list looks something like this so far:

farside22
scotmany12
Flameaxe

More later.

[Incognito]

And hm, there's only 9 players left, 3 of which are scum, and one of those players I did feel was town based on his reaction to an early wagon on him (Dave) and Gorrad's content after he replaced Dave.

My feeling right now is the scum is three of the four following people:

DrippingGoofball
Sarcastro
Elmo
Coron

I have the strongest feelings about Sarcastro, and the other three I'll attempt to analyze also. Again, more content later.

[Incognito]

Obviously but at the time Xtoxm voted for Flameaxe, Xtoxm was under very little scrutiny and was nowhere near the top of anyone's suspect list.

[Incognito]

Let's lynch Sarcastro. I have a sneaking suspicion that he's the Encryptor.

[Incognito]

Btw, DGB, what exactly is your case against me?

[Incognito]

Let's lynch Sarcastro. I have a sneaking suspicion that he's the Encryptor.

why?

Because despite the fact that a couple of well-reasoned cases have been brought up against him or even the fact that he's been fairly scummy/unproductive all game, people (with the exception of Elmo) still seem to be giving him middling reads or even slightly town reads. It's almost as if a double standard exists when the topic of Sarcastro comes up.

[Incognito]

Why do you think I'm the Encryptor, though? Why not one of the other two scum roles? Do you think the Encryptor is so valuable that the scum would go out of their way to protect it more than the other two? It sounds a bit like you're just trying to draw support for my lynch by suggesting I'm not just scum but a scum power role, even though there's no actual evidence that this is the case.

The only scum roles left are scum power roles so if you are scum, you'd have to be a power role regardless. Of the scum power roles left in the game, the only one of value is the Encryptor - it has the day-talking functionality along with the ability to hide a player's alignment which can really fuck things up for the town disallowing us to know whether or not we're in LyLo. I'm pretty sure you know all this already.

I'm not a fan of DGB's recent move onto Incognito. It feels like bussing, or perhaps just an attempt to get off of a Coron bandwagon that obviously isn't going to form.

I didn't like her vote either but for different reasons obviously. She has yet to explain the case that she has on me, and her vote looks completely wagony.

[Incognito]

I've already covered all of that. If you read my posts you'd find why I think you're scum, why I think you're the Encryptor, and so on and so forth. Even if you don't end up being the Encryptor, I still think you're scum thus I want you lynched. I'm not repeating myself again.

[Incognito]

Incognito: Please provide a game where you were scum for me to read? Length no object.

Elmo, here are the only two completed games where I've been scum from start to finish:

Mini 568 - Nubigena

Open 59 - Daytalk 12

[Incognito]

DGB - Has not posted in a while, the materialization of the bandwagon by two separate people after 2 people posted lists of who they think is scummy with DGB at the top(2 people in fact that I have listed as me 2nd and 3rd scummiest), so either this is really huge bussing or DGB is town or something. This drives down the scumminess here significantly. DGB needs to post asap. Still very scummy but slightly less.

Coron, can you explain this? Why is her jump on a bandwagon of a person you think is town (me) after she failed to provide any reasoning for why she thinks I'm scum either bussing or a town action especially after a few people have listed her as scummy? Does it not look like she's simply trying to protect herself from the lynch therefore making her appear even

more

scummy?

[Incognito]

Actually even aside from that, your whole post looks really contrived. Why would you be willing to lynch Flameaxe

now

of all times for being "useless" when you had a whole game to do so?

Your Gorrad read looks pretty awful too. "He's scummy, but wait no, he's not scummy, but yeah, he's mildly scummy, but no he's not that bad?"

[Incognito]

I voted Incognito because Elmo was soooooooooo sure that Incognito was scum.

Since my success in convincing players that Coron is scum was limited to myself, I decided to be a team player and give Elmo's scumdar a chance to prove itself.

Elmo said that he was "feeling stubborn" about me and he hasn't even voted for me all day. I don't see how his stubbornness and lack of a vote translates into a sure thing that he believes I'm scum especially since he's recently asked for meta on me to see previous games where I've been scum. Further, we're in a pretty crucial situation. Why would you completely trust a player whose alignment you supposedly don't know?

Now I just noticed that Elmo is voting for me. That is totally bizarre. Why would he do that?

Using your logic, I suppose I should be voting for you too now, correct?

Before he said he thought one of armlx and farside was scum. I would actually like for him to explain more why farside is cleared. Disagree with his tunneling on sarc. Still scummy, not as scummy as dgb as he actually has some protown posts.

I reread farside's posts where she was defending her position on thinking that armlx was town, and I got the impression from her comments about the Supersaint that she had to be town:

The only other thing I can think of that would make Armix willing to hammer is if he is scum and knows there isn't a SS.

I realize that scum could make the same sort of comment to feign a lack of information but the way she arrived at this conclusion about armlx seemed genuine and logical to me and not like she had extra information knowing that he was town or like she actually did know a Supersaint existed. So yeah, she might still be scum, but as of this moment, I'm leaning away from that as there are scummier candidates out there.

[Incognito]

DGB, you seem to be trying to suggest that Elmo has been pushing along a wagon that he fully supports but has been doing so without actually lending his vote to the wagon but that's simply not true. Here's some of the latest comments that Elmo has said that have been Incog-related going in reverse chronological order:

I am feeling stubborn about Incognito. The last time I was stubborn about someone, they were scum (hi Farside). I'm still feeling stubborn. I should (asdfgh) get round to metagaming him. Bah.

Uncertainty.

b) To see, perhaps, how other people reacted to that. If he's scum, his scumbuddies might attack me; if he was town, a scumbag might want a counter-wagon to one of the people with votes on them and jump on. I'd strongly imagine that at least one of Sarc and Incog are scum; I believe it's Sarc, predictably, but I think that's true if I'm wrong.

One of Sarc or Incog, leaning Sarc.

INCOG IS TOWN, LET'S TAKE THIS SOMEPLACE USEFUL

Oof.

Why are you following Elmo on this? Why haven't you looked further into your own reason on who is scum and why?

Frankly, I'm not finding anyone but Coron and Elmo particularly scummy. I'm not "following Elmo" as I have unvoted.

Can you, like, pay attention?

This post makes absolutely no sense. You only find Coron and Elmo scummy but you give

Elmo's

"scumdar" a chance to find scum?

also:

Vote: DGB

I'm not intimately familiar with her playstyle, but I know she is a bandwagoner, but I feel that the bandwagoning done in this game is a bit much even for her.

Eh? Weren't you just attacking scotmany12 calling him opportunistic for voting DGB at a time that you and Sarc mentioned that you found her scummy? Why are you so willing to place her at L-1 so quickly now?

[Incognito]

also:

Vote: DGB

I'm not intimately familiar with her playstyle, but I know she is a bandwagoner, but I feel that the bandwagoning done in this game is a bit much even for her.

Eh? Weren't you just attacking scotmany12 calling him opportunistic for voting DGB at a time that you and Sarc mentioned that you found her scummy? Why are you so willing to place her at L-1 so quickly now?

"So quickly"? I've been considering placing my vote on DGB since before scot placed his. His and Elmo's seeming oportunism gave me pause which is why it took this long for me to place my vote.

I realize that, but I would've thought their "opportunism" would have required more probing from you to convince yourself that it wasn't what you thought it was rather than just three day's worth and then L-1. Do you still think they are being opportunistic?

[Incognito]

The better question is why the fuck do you still sign up to play Mafia games when you never really play?

[Incognito]

Coron and Sarcastro: Please comment on scotmany12's involvement in the Xtoxmscum-lynch.

[Incognito]

Mmmmm.... things are back down to a crawl again.

Let's go, peeps! Post!

DGB, if your reads of Coron and I have gone town and you previously listed Elmo as scummy, who in addition to Elmo do you think is scum?

[Incognito]

Typically, have lost interest again.

Probably not doing anything until DGB dies. Pretty sure Sarc's response didn't engage with what I actually said. Don't really care at this point.

Why don't you care about Sarc's response at this point?

[Incognito]

Elmo, I'm willing to get on board your program if you feel so strongly about it. Bear in mind that I probably feel as strongly about Coron being scum, but I am a team player, so here:

unvote, vote: Incognito

But no I don't like Elmo. There's a lot of lurking in plain sight, appearances with really short sentences that don't mean much, he keeps saying he lacks interest in the game as an excuse, but then

between July 5 and July 18, when he's under attack, he starts making mega-posts

. Now that the pressure is off him, and onto me, he's back to lurking in plain sight, except for calling for my death. "Probably not doing anything until DGB dies." "cuz a) DGB obvscum" and stuff like that.

This dramatic contrast smells very

ex post facto

. I think I'd be cool with a DGB lynch today.

[Incognito]

On this page I'm getting really bad vibes about farside. She unvoted me when my wagon slowed down, but the second Incognito votes me, BANG! She revotes me.

As scotmany12 already mentioned, I still haven't voted you. I expressed my intent to vote for you, but I still wanted to see what you had to say with respect to some of the issues I brought up regarding your play. Further, her unvoting of you didn't fall in line with a slow-down of your wagon. If anything, your wagon was continuing to grow while she had her vote on you (going from memory, I believe she was vote number 2) and it was brought to L-1 before she decided to unvote.

Look guys, I'm vanilla, it's not the end of the world if I die today, but then if the scum team is 3 people, tomorrow, you guys will be 4 townies against 3 scumbags.

It looks like my lynch is inevitable, but I'm fine with it if you promise to lynch farside tomorrow. Don't even let her make one post. No discussion. Just lynch her.

So you're claiming that with your death, we'll be in a LyLo situation tomorrow and that we should immediately vote for farside22 without any further thought? That doesn't seem to fit well together.

Um. Where's Sarcastro and Gorrad?

Game Status: Day 5, Deadline: 4th of August

Mod:

Have you issued prods lately to anyone?

I should note that I'm really bothered by Flameaxe. Xtoxm's early vote on him didn't really look like distancing to me, but his utter uselessness throughout the game and his current active lurking falls more in line with his scum meta than his town meta. When he's town, he at least tries to make an effort to provide

something

even if it's not the most analytical and thought-provoking stuff in the world. Does anyone know why JDodge thought Flameaxe was obvtown?

[Incognito]

I would definitely have considered a Flameaxe utility lynch earlier in the game. But as it is now, we have to hit scum today, we might have to do better than "utility." On the down side, he may be scum, and the thought of him at end game is not a pretty one.

So I'm guessing you don't know why JDodge thought he was obvtown?

Also, Sarcastro can be relied upon for good judgment IF he's town.

I really don't think Sarcastro is town in this game.

[Incognito]

I have no idea what JDodge was thinking and I'm not sure if what he says is a gospel.

Incognito, have you pushed for a Sarc lynch at some time?

I realize that, but he might have had really good reason to believe he was town which could be extremely useful at this time.

DGB, have you been reading the thread? I've been pushing for quite awhile now.

[Incognito]

DGB, have you been reading the thread? I've been pushing for quite awhile now.

A sign that I'm too many games.

DGB, if you haven't been paying as close attention to the thread to not even realize I've been pushing Sarc for so long, what exactly are you basing your reads on?

[Incognito]

Flameaxe is away until the 30th.

What a joke. Dude just posted somewhere.

[Incognito]

I <3 you too.

[Incognito]

I don't understand why this desire to have Flameaxe replaced and/or lynched kicks in at this time of all times in this game. We've had a whole game to do this; in fact, much much earlier in the game I tried to get a decent bandwagon going on Flameaxe but that was shot down for other wagons by players and he was just as useless then as he is now. Suppose Flameaxe is town and we lynch him for being useless

now

of all times; we'll still be left in LyLo tomorrow. I still prefer a Sarcastro lynch over anything else. DGB has been acting fairly scummy as of recent, but even after repeated questioning I can't tell if she's acting this way as scum or just lazy town.

I'm no great loss to the town, being vanilla, but I'd appreciate with someone unvoted me in order to prevent Flameaxe from having the last word, and to force him to answer our questions.

You do realize that unless the scum was generous enough to go beyond the point totals, all townies remaining are vanilla, right? Any town loss is a great loss at this time so I'm curious as to why you're reiterating this point in relation to yourself.

[Incognito]

Mod: Please replace me do to personal issue.
Thanks

Personal issue only in this game?

[Incognito]

Posting from Beach Bam--

Elmo, you're not making much sense to me. I expressed the same concern about the sudden Flameaxe-hate and you've even questioned Sarcastro about why he's suddenly called attention to Flameaxe. But now you've mentioned that if you had to choose between one of me or Sarc, you would lean against me. Why? Do you think Sarcastro's sudden urge to lynch Flameaxe at this point in the game is more likely to come from town?

I am annoyed that Incog is now really really scum. I have no idea why. I am annoyed I have no idea why. Nonetheless: Incog, did you answer Ether's query? Inthat, I remember you mentioning your meta on Xtoxm-scum, but you didn't seem to get into him very much at all.

I'm pretty sure I did, but I don't have enough time right now to check. In short, he had replaced in, I thought he would eventually post more, and I just thought that he hadn't completed his read of the thread to actually become engaged in the game during real-time.

FWIW, I'm a bit disturbed by Gorrad's comment as well when more often than not two people who continuously argue with one another in a game are more often to be arguing townies as opposed to one scum, one town. His argument that because we've been at each other's throats the whole game, one must be scum, the other town seems very counterintuitive to me.

One last note: I find it somewhat strange that I haven't been pressured today as much as I had during previous days. The scum know that I'm town, they would probably be able to get away with placing enough votes on me to lynch without getting too much heat for it since a number of people have been on my back this game, but yet I'm not even a lynch candidate. My wagon somehow stalled today and then eventually completely died. I'll try to think about this more when I get home. FTR, I should be around to hammer DGB by deadline if nobody else has done so.

[Incognito]

Actually I just realized I would be asleep through deadline. No point in delaying anymore anyway:

Unvote; Vote: DrippingGoofball

[Incognito]

Mod:

Is farside22 still with us?

Currently reading though I still think I'd like a Sarcastro lynch.

[Incognito]

I'm not going to say who or what happened. Needless to say I'm sticking with the game. I hope you can respect my desire not to bring anything unpleasant to this game.
Thank you.

That's cool.

With that said I know you have been after Sarcastro for a couple of days now. Is there anyone else you feel is scum and why?

That's what I plan on figuring out after my reread of yesterday's events and a read of DGB/Marmalade.

[Incognito]

I remember reading somewhere that DGB-scum is very much against bussing especially in early large games.

Very early on DGB mentions something about wanting to test Sarcastro's scumdar, and she placed a vote on Dave (now Gorrad). I still like Gorrad as town. Eventually she switched to q21 and seemed pretty bent on getting Xtoxm-scum to remove his vote from Flameaxe and join the q21-wagon.

This is an interesting snippet of post in retrospect from a conversation going on between Xtoxm <-> DGB early game:

Flameaxe is both worthless AND harmless.

I doubt he'll last much longer in this game. It's only Day 2. It's too early for utility lynching players like Flameaxe.

She categorizes Flameaxe as "worthless and harmless". The word "harmless" catches my attention though considering what we know about both her's and Xtoxm's alignments now. Was she referring to the fact that a Flameaxe-town would not be a threat to them closer to endgame? Even though Flameaxe has been more useless than I think he is when he's been town in previous games, I feel like this statement might be a testament to Flameaxe's alignment in this game. There's always the inverse interpretation of harmless in the sense that he's scum right along with them but I dunno about that.

There were also certain moments early on where DGB was somewhat anti-Coron. She actually voted him fairly early on at the start of Day 4 but immediately switched to voting me when a wagon grew on me.

The main thing I'm taking from this DGB analysis is I still feel like Gorrad may be town. This analysis also decreases my suspicion of Flameaxe in a way.

Not really much to analyze of Marmalade except for the fact that he did vote Dave/Gorrad early on. Maybe another point in favor of Gorrad.

More later~

[Incognito]

Vote: Sarcastro

^^^ My version of a prod. =)

[Incognito]

Buhbump. Flameaxe? Sarc? Gorrad? Incog? I need moar comments from all of you.

Sorry about my lack of contribution. See my sig about my access at this time.

About Flameaxe though: Please see my Post 1286 for my opinion on him. I just think DGB's categorization of him as "harmless" might be indicative of him being town rather than scum.

[Incognito]

~At the library catching up to games finally~

How is DGB calling Flameaxe "harmless" indicative of town rather then scum?

I covered that here:

She categorizes Flameaxe as "worthless and harmless". The word "harmless" catches my attention though considering what we know about both her's and Xtoxm's alignments now. Was she referring to the fact that a Flameaxe-town would not be a threat to them closer to endgame? Even though Flameaxe has been more useless than I think he is when he's been town in previous games, I feel like this statement might be a testament to Flameaxe's alignment in this game. There's always the inverse interpretation of harmless in the sense that he's scum right along with them but I dunno about that.

Like I said, I guess it could be interpreted in the sense that he's scum along with Xtoxm and her, but I doubt that.

Add the following to that: Xtoxm-

Goon

began voting for Flameaxe pretty much as soon as he replaced in at a point when Xtoxm was under little to no pressure which would lean me away from believing it might have been distancing/bussing. I place emphasis on the word "Goon" because that leads me to believe even further that it wasn't distancing/bussing. If Flameaxe is scum, then he would have a scum power role. I don't think a standard goon would vote for a scum power role that early in the game under very little pressure.

Coron, why do you feel the need to pull out random quotes of mine to get other people's opinions about them? Shouldn't you be providing your own interpretation of them before getting anyone else's?

"Elmo, armlx, and now to a certain extent Coron have been defending me a bit. I've never played with any of them before so I suppose there's two possibilities for them: they're either town who think I'm also town or scum who are buddying up to me. I don't think all three of them are scum, but I'd bet at least one of them is." Incog, do you still think this?

armlx flipped town so that obviously can't be true for him. That would leave you and Elmo. I've mentioned previously that I had issues with some of your play earlier in this game and some of your play as of recent has caught my attention as well. In particular, I didn't like your attack on scotmany12 where you called him "opportunistic" for voting for DGB just because you and Sarcastro voiced your opinions about her prior to when he placed his vote. It's awfully difficult to call someone opportunistic when, if I remember correctly, scot had mentioned even before you and Sarc mentioned stuff about her that he found her suspicious. Your attack on him just seemed really backwards and if you're scum, it could have been a way to shift attention from DGB and onto scot by labeling him as opportunistic when he was just following up on his previous suspicions with an actual vote.

Even your presentation of your night-time notes on scotmany12 at the start of today looks really suspect to me. I mean yeah, you were attacking him yesterday, so if you're town, it might make sense to have taken notes during the night to use as an attack on him today but if you're scum, your presentation of notes could be wine in front of me to show that you couldn't possibly be involved with his death since you took all these notes on him during the night to use against him today. Why did you not take notes about anyone other than scotmany12? There are two scum left in this game. Wouldn't you also take notes on people whom you might believe to be his possible partners?

As for Elmo, I don't think he's scum here. He seems to have actually taken the time to meta-game me asking for references of where I've been scum recently, and I'm guessing he read the Vollville game I was in as well. I don't think scum would take the time to read through previous games and exert that much effort into figuring me out when apparently there's been enough evidence against me already in this game to have me lynched.

[Incognito]

Fun exercise for

everyone

: Go pick any random Incognito post from Vollville. Pick any random post from here. Compare the two. Is it not kind of obvious?

Elmo, I do agree with you that my play here has differed drastically from my play in Vollville, and I've tried to touch on the reasons for that at different points within this thread. This is the first time I've been involved in a large game and simply put, I have had a difficult time making the adjustments from a 12 player format to an 18 player format especially early on in this game. If there's one thing I've learned from this game, it's that I just won't be joining games larger than 12 players anymore. Keeping track of so many people is just too much for me and doesn't allow me to scum hunt the way I like to in a 12 player format.

Have you compared my play here to my play in Nubigena or Daytalk, the two links that I provided to you as examples of my scum play? Do you think my play here is more in line with that play?

[Incognito]

Flameaxe, who's scum?

[Incognito]

But during my reread of myself to refer back to what Farside said, Sarc didn't really seem all too hot to me. Then again, that was only a skim, and I'll read it more in-depth (as well as the other players) over the weekend.

The weekend's drawing to a close. How's it going, Flameaxe?

Here's a good question: What happened to that Incog-hate?

[Incognito]

My Status

: I still don't have internet access at home. Verizon DSL promises that my internet should be up and running tomorrow but they've been saying that day after day after day. The limited amount of time that I had at work I ended up using on WOMAFIA since I'm way behind on that, which leaves me behind on all my games including this one. I'm really sorry. Please bear with me.

[Incognito]

...

Fuck this, I'm going back to lurking.

I posted that across the board. You know that.

I've already made my opinions clear about Flameaxe and others. I'm of the opinion that he's not scum here, I'm of the opinion that Gorrad isn't scum here, I'm of the opinion that farside isn't scum here. I'd like a Sarc lynch. Therefore I won't be hammering Flameaxe.

[Incognito]

After O/D'ing on my reading of Elmo, I think he might be town here too. So really, Sarcastro and some other person (maybe Coron or maybe someone incorrectly placed on that list above) is scum. Yay.

[Incognito]

I would have actually liked to respond to Elmo's post before anything else happened but meh, obviously that didn't happen.

Look, I'm pretty much in the same boat here as yesterday: I still think Elmo is town, I still think farside22 is town, and I still think Gorrad is town. As I mentioned yesterday, I thought Coron stood the highest chance of being Sarcastro's most likely scum buddy but it turns out he was town. Flameaxe's alignment was obviously hidden: if he was scum, then this makes perfect sense as with two scum remaining yesterday, this would have been the last possible chance for the scum to hide his alignment to make an impact in the game. Basically, if Flameaxe was scum, I have no problem being lynched today -- a number of you have mentioned that you think Sarc and I are of different alignments, and I've been arguing the point for awhile now that I think Sarcastro is scum so on the condition that you lynch him tomorrow, I've got no problem with my lynch today. If Flameaxe was town however, then that changes things obviously. Elmo, anything you wanted me to respond to in particular?

[Incognito]

Cross-posted and reading.

Elmo, seriously, I'm town. That's all I can really say about that. I've tried my best to defend myself and explain why my play here might look different from the play you've seen in my mini-games. Can you at least let me defend myself and try to put a case together as to why I think Sarcastro is scum?

[Incognito]

Can you unvote please while I respond?

[Incognito]

Ugh. You suck. Just unvote. I'm not gonna waste my time typing shit while I stand the chance of getting quick-hammered in the meantime.

[Incognito]

Anyway.

Okay, so typing as fast as I can lol.

Re: Xtoxm: The reason I was undecided about his alignment early on was mainly because of the timing of when he replaced and when he started producing content. I had only played with Xtoxm in... uhhhh,,, four games with him, two of which I played with him from start to finish (he was town in one while I was town along with him, scum in the other while I was town, and another where we were both scum <<<--- this one he replaced into). Right around the time he replaced in here, he was also replacing into another Newbie Game I was in (Newbie 581). I was under the impression that when he replaced in this particular game and began making posts, that he wasn't fully caught up to speed with all of the happenings in this particular game. If you look at the Newbie 581 game or even the Daytalking game, he produced long summary posts to summarize the events that he missed. He didn't do that here and instead just kinda began commenting on stuff so I was assuming his posting would pick up, that he would provide some kind of summary post to show where he stood on issues, and once he got caught up to speed, I would be able to get a better read on him. Obviously that didn't happen.

Ether began questioning me about my read of him to which I replied that my read wasn't solid yet since I

thought

he wasn't caught up yet, and she took this to mean that there was some kind of association between the two of us since I seemed waffly. The fact that he flipped scum of course didn't help out my position. If I had known that he was actually considering himself to be all caught up around the time that Ether began questioning me, I would have certainly had him pinned as scum -- after all, I think I have a really good meta read on him as demonstrated in those previous games that had been linked to by Ether and me.

Re: Gorrad

My town read of him is mainly due to the fact that Dave self-voted around the time that a wagon had developed on him. Pretty much every single time that I've seen Newbies self-vote not to lynch but closer to lynch, it's actually come from Newbie-town. I can link to specific games where I've used this as a town-tell before. The fact that he did this here led me to believe he was town. I didn't see much wrong with Gorrad when he replaced in either so my town read of him continued. Gorrad like you and Ether and I guess others that have played with me before also referenced previous games that I've played in and all noted that my play here was different. The fact that all of you took this meta into consideration when trying to read me here made me think that you're all likely to be town. There was enough in-thread stuff already, I think, to ring me up that for all of you to actually reference meta in your analysis of me when determining my alignment gave me a good sign.

[Incognito]

Funny, that.

I still think Elmo is town, I still think farside22 is town, and I still think Gorrad is town.
[...]
Basically, if Flameaxe was scum, I have no problem being lynched today [..] I think Sarcastro is scum so on the condition that you lynch him tomorrow, I've got no problem with my lynch today. If Flameaxe was town however, then that changes things obviously.

I'm not gonna waste my time typing shit while I stand the chance of getting quick-hammered in the meantime.

So, like, Flameaxe was scum, Sarc is scum, right? So who's going to quickhammer you? It's almost like you know there's still two scum alive, ey?

We could play a game of chess or something while we waited, if you like.

That's silly, Elmo. I

think

the three of you are town. I have no extra information or anything so really I could be wrong about one of you and that alone still gives me concern about a quick-hammer.

[Incognito]

And sorry, check that: He replaced into Newbie 591 and not 581.

[Incognito]

Fucking A. 59

2

. Bleh.

[Incognito]

Puh. You've already bet everything in your wallet apparently. If you're a billionaire and you've got your stash in there, you've just made someone the next Bill Gates.

[Incognito]

Heyyyyyyy. Why don't I just vote Sarcastro-scum?

Vote: Sarcastro

[Incognito]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why Flameaxe's allignment wasn't shown? I don't see a role that does that.

lol obvtown.

The Encryptor does that. It allows daytalking and has that role hiding capability.

Can we lynch Sarcastro-scum now, plz?

[Incognito]

Yeah, Patrick became more badass this game.

[Incognito]

Now I really think Flameaxe was scum. Sarcastro, are you the last scum left? Are you purposely trying to cast doubt about

everyone

alive at this point because if you manage to lynch town today, you realize you'd still need to lynch one more townie tomorrow to win?

Your comment about Gorrad and me scripting that was completely predictable. I almost didn't even bother to answer Gorrad's question because I knew either you or Elmo would probably see or, in your case, "see" it that way. Elmo because I'm pretty sure he has that confirmation bias kicking in (P.S. he's town ) and you because you're scum who is latching onto Elmo's Gorrad/Incog case, obviously.

What exactly gives you the wrong feeling about farside22 in particular?

[Incognito]

Uh, what? If I were the last scum, Incognito, why would I need to cast doubt on Elmo or Farside? I could just go along with Elmo and lynch you and Gorrad.

Really? That couldn't be further from the truth. Going by the hypothetical situation you've just mentioned, do you really think that if you went along with Elmo plan, got me lynched, and had my role revealed, that an Elmo-town would just shrug and say tomorrow: "Welp, it must be Gorrad" without considering the other possibility? Especially since Elmo's plan is focused on an actual pairing between me and Gorrad? My role-flip would obviously cause him to revisit his thoughts from yesterday into today and force him to attempt to consider the other possibilities.

I stated my feelings on Elmo and Farside as an explanation for why I would prefer to lynch Gorrad first - because there still seems to be the slight possibility that you're town and one of Elmo or Farside (or Flameaxe) is scum.

Your reactions to my today-vote don't lead me to believe this. If you really still think there's a slight possibility that I'm town and if you were really town, then wouldn't you be flipping out right now and asking for me to remove my vote realizing that you have the potential of being quick-lynched? Gorrad and Elmo have clearly checked into the thread, yes, farside is V/LA, and Flameaxe has been lynched, but if you really thought even the slightest that an Elmo/Gorrad pairing could be possible, I would think you'd have considered that they might be coordinating a quick-lynch on you some time soon.

I have no reason at all to have a bad feeling about Farside, because I don't think a single thing she's said has struck me as scummy. But unlike, say, Coron, I haven't actually got an actively townish feeling from her either.

What about all of her analysis from yesterday and the various positions she took on people who are now known scum throughout the game? That isn't enough to give you a town vibe about her?

[Incognito]

Hmmmmmmmm.

[Incognito]

Actually, no. I still think Elmo is very town and that the person I'm currently voting for is scum.

Heh. Now I'm

very

curious as to why the only other possibility is that Gorrad is the only scum left and you're so certain that he'll be around tomorrow. Weren't

you

the one considering a farside-scum possibility?

[Incognito]

I can remove this from Watched Topics now?

Good.

[Incognito]

Thanks, Patrick, for modding. That's all I've really got to say about this one lol.