Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Y]

I don't know about RS, but Skruffs did get my attention for being weird and irrelevant.

[Mizzy]

You weren't on

any

wagon. You didn't vote for anyone at the end of day 1. While you may think there's only one real point, I feel there are multiple points.
You weren't on the wagon, which really isn't my main point at all.
You weren't voting for anyone, which, especially with these deadline rules, is a vote for no-lynch, not what we want to do at all.
The "I told you so." You may not like it, but it is scummy.
You really didn't try to get the wagon to go anywhere else. If you want people to not lynch someone, get the pressure off of them by applying it to someone else. Sitting back saying "he's town, he's town" won't help at all. Sorry.
You may think my reasons are crap, and you're entitled to your opinion on them for sure, but don't misrepresent the case by saying there's only one main real point, when there are multiple real points, even though they may not be ones that you agree with.

So, in order for my actions to have mattered at all, I would have had to end the day voting for someone? None of the other votes and such that I made during D1 count, at all?

I guess I just don't agree that the case points on me are scummy ones. I did my part in keeping a no-lynch from happening...the fact that I was unwilling to help lynch someone I thought was pro-town seems to be the only thing that people dwell on.

Again, I've done the "I told you so" thing before as town, so how is that scummy? And plus, I didn't actually say "I told you so," I said I WOULD if it wouldn't have been childish. You might think there's no distinction there, but there is.

[hasdgfas]

Somewhat in-depth analysis of 471:

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches.

An excellent point. They are technically the only necessary lynches. I agree that it wasn't a necessary lynch. Capricious was my main suspect, however, so I thought it was a good lynch, especially since he didn't seem to care enough to defend himself.

You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Interesting observation. It is true, from what I can see, and not really a good thing to be doing at all. Since there's no "hard deadline" in this game from what I can tell, you still can try to convince people to switch suspects if you don't like the wagon of choice at the time. Don't just resign yourself to the lynch of someone that you think is time because "it's necessary." It isn't. Make a good case on someone else and a better lynch can happen.

But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just so everyone knows, here's my current scumdar, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is scummy and 1 is town:

hasdgfas - 7
eldarad - 7
Skruffs - 5
Andycyca - 5
Rotten Snitch - 5
Y - 3
Zindaras - 2
Yosarian2 - 1

[Mizzy]

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

Just a little information from my brain here...I agree that I should have done a better job trying to get the town turned onto a new target, but I did feel like any effort towards that would have been wasted because everyone was kind of freaking out. Also, as most of you know, I'm very busy IRL with the impending arrival of my baby, so I am not as invested in my games as I normally am or should be. Not an excuse, but I did want to give the reasons why it may have seemed like I didn't "care" enough.

[hasdgfas]

Oh, and just so everyone knows, here's my current scumdar, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is scummy and 1 is town:

hasdgfas - 7
eldarad - 7
Skruffs - 5
Andycyca - 5
Rotten Snitch - 5
Y - 3
Zindaras - 2
Yosarian2 - 1

Interesting. The people who jumped onto the Capri wagon with pretty much no reasoning are less scummy than eldarad and I, who had both been voting him for a while, and , coincedentally(sp?), are both suspicious of you right now.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just so everyone knows, here's my current scumdar, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is scummy and 1 is town:

hasdgfas - 7
eldarad - 7
Skruffs - 5
Andycyca - 5
Rotten Snitch - 5
Y - 3
Zindaras - 2
Yosarian2 - 1

Interesting. The people who jumped onto the Capri wagon with pretty much no reasoning are less scummy than eldarad and I, who had both been voting him for a while, and , coincedentally(sp?), are both suspicious of you right now.

Has, you're up from a 5 because of (and only because) of you kind of disappearing from the game and then coming back and appearing to attack the "opportune" target without having given much content first. I would have given you those points no matter who you had attacked if that person was the "opportune" target, whether it was myself or not.

Eld is up there because his aggressive behavior kind of came out of left field. It does feel like he's trying to take out frustration on someone, and I don't like it.

My number 5's are ones I am currently unsure about, but one thing for sure is that I am sick of RS lurking.

[Zindaras]

I like lists. Here's a short, mostly gut-oriented, list:

Y: 8
eldarad: 7 (mostly based on his play so far today)
Skruffs: 6 (yeah, I know I called him Town before, but he's really pushing it)
Mizzy: 5 (Mizzy has pros, Mizzy has cons. I'm just not getting a good solid one-way read)
Andycyca: 5
Rotten Snitch: 5
Yosarian: 4
hasdgfas: 3

More people should be making these lists.

[Ether]

2 Mizzy (Skruffs, eldarad)
1 eldarad (Yosarian2)

6 Unvote (Andycyca, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Y, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

[Rotten Snitch]

I'm not lurking Mizzy. I just don't have anything to say right now. As a matter of fact just about every time I do make a post you jump on my case. The conversations I have had with you are extremely diffucult and as of yet I have no other suspicions. Except a wild notion that maybe Capri was right about the whole cat mafia theory, cause I really see Skruffs, Mizzy, and Zindy at the top of my list. I do not have 100% proof yet and therefore I am watching and trying to make my connections.

[Mizzy]

I'm not lurking Mizzy. I just don't have anything to say right now. As a matter of fact just about every time I do make a post you jump on my case. The conversations I have had with you are extremely diffucult and as of yet I have no other suspicions. Except a wild notion that maybe Capri was right about the whole cat mafia theory, cause I really see Skruffs, Mizzy, and Zindy at the top of my list. I do not have 100% proof yet and therefore I am watching and trying to make my connections.

Well, hello there. Actually, if you bothered paying attention, the last time you posted, I didn't say anything about it at all. So stop using me as an excuse to not contribute.

[Rotten Snitch]

No actually you did post back to me. I called you out (419) for your admitted WIFOM and your hypocrisy you countered in post 427. The only reason you did not continue arguing with me is because my argument (428) was valid and you really couldn’t have continued without looking scummy. So you probably let that one drop.

Case in point you come right back with making me look bad right now. You are not my excuse for not posting. I have already given my excuse. It may be seen as lurking to some but I am reading very thoroughly and taking notes. Like I said all’s I got is my vote and I’m gonna make sure it is on the right person.

[Mizzy]

No actually you did post back to me. I called you out (419) for your admitted WIFOM and your hypocrisy you countered in post 427. The only reason you did not continue arguing with me is because my argument (428) was valid and you really couldn’t have continued without looking scummy. So you probably let that one drop.

Case in point you come right back with making me look bad right now. You are not my excuse for not posting. I have already given my excuse. It may be seen as lurking to some but I am reading very thoroughly and taking notes. Like I said all’s I got is my vote and I’m gonna make sure it is on the right person.

Actually, I'm talking about your 486 post, which came after everything you're bitching about. I didn't attack you at all for that, and I'm surprised you either forgot about it or ignored the fact.

As for why I stopped arguing with you, you're wrong. I stopped arguing with you because you were selectively ignoring my points in order to make your argument look more valid. There's a big difference between, "Here's an argument I want the town to consider, but I'm not going to admit it's WIFOM," and "Here are my thoughts because I was asked for them, but I don't want the town to consider them because they are WIFOM and based on gut."

As for you not posting, if I'm not your excuse, then you have

no

excuse. By not posting and just sitting there, you're active lurking. That's what active lurking is. And it's anti-town. I'm not attacking you for it, I'm asking that you stop and actually contribute to discussion.

[Rotten Snitch]

Mizzy the reason you didn't attack me for post 486 was because for the first time in the whole game we were thinking along the same lines. Of course you would not attack me for it. We were both referencing the Andycaca Hammer and the rest of the bandwagon pointing fingers elsewhere.

Selectively ignoring point. You have got to be kidding. Yes I will selectively choose points of reference in each of my posts just as everyone else in this game does when trying to make a point. I am not going to quote the whole game thread to make a point. If I do not observe something you said it is because I either did not think it was worth addressing or it would not encompass what I was trying to relay to the rest of the town.

I already said that just because you admit it is WIFOM at the beginning of the post does not mean you are guilt free of committing WIFOM.

There's a big difference between, "Here's an argument I want the town to consider, but I'm not going to admit it's WIFOM," and "Here are my thoughts because I was asked for them, but I don't want the town to consider them because they are WIFOM and based on gut."

Ok so um if I say something is WIFOM and I do not want the town to acknowledge and discuss..... Then what am I doing by posting it??????....... Muddying the waters?? Yes I think that is a good term to use.....

[Rotten Snitch]

On that note let me add some WIFOM to the game
..... No one read it though because it is WIFOM and cannot be proven but I am only posting this because I "don't want the town to consider it because it is WIFOM but it is a gut feeling I have".........

Just a hunch I have going off of Capri's first few posts.

On a weird side note in Capri’s first few post he hinted at a cat mafia (I know wolves are canine and all but there could also be werecats) Some meta that Skruffs did not mention about Strappado, him, and myself knowing each other is that Strappado’s avatar was a badger (if you have ever seen that Badgers, Badgers, Badgers, flash animation) --- Well Capri’s idea was quickly shot down by guess who??? Mizzy and Zindy. So Capri was first lynch
And Elmo was nightkilled. Just a thought but maybe they have intentionally killed off the other animal avatars as a joke? After that Mizzy changed her avatar to a cat chick. Hmmmmmm ------- just a playful thought. Love the cat avatar Skruffs……

[Mizzy]

Ok so um if I say something is WIFOM and I do not want the town to acknowledge and discuss..... Then what am I doing by posting it??????....... Muddying the waters?? Yes I think that is a good term to use.....

It was either that or not answer at all, which is just as bad. At least the town knew what I was thinking and could choose whether or not to make anything of it. The difference is that you tried to pass the WIFOM off as something other than WIFOM. That's what I called you on.

Also, the whole cat mafia thing? It's not really WIFOM so much as it's completely useless. I changed my avatar to a "cat chick" because I was outted as a furry in scumchat (and earned the title "Furry" when the TitleFairy gets around to it) and because it's my universal avatar. Meaning, it's the avatar I use everywhere where people know me and not because of anyone else's avatar. Avatars have nothing to do with the games, on these forums. I've never heard of a game in which they did matter (if anyone else has, speak up.)

Again, not attacking you, just pointing out that you might be headed completely off-track in your thinking.

[Rotten Snitch]

And that is fine. I said it was just a hunch and the night actions kinda confirmed it.

I do however think Skruffs is acting very odd in his postings and I have some suspicions of you and zindy as well so it does fall into play for my own ideas.

Off track in thinking it's an avatar thing, yeah probably, it is fun to think that kind of stuff. I am not however basing my scum list off of that.
Off track in thinking you three could possibly be scum.... maybe not

[Mizzy]

And that is fine. I said it was just a hunch and the night actions kinda confirmed it.

I do however think Skruffs is acting very odd in his postings and I have some suspicions of you and zindy as well so it does fall into play for my own ideas.

Off track in thinking it's an avatar thing, yeah probably, it is fun to think that kind of stuff. I am not however basing my scum list off of that.
Off track in thinking you three could possibly be scum.... maybe not

Well definitely don't rule out any scum pairings you think you've found until you have proof otherwise. These games are all about guilty-until-proven-innocent.

Skruffs' posting bothers me because he's so completely tunnel-visioned that he's not actually helping the game progress. (And no, I don't count his hand in the Capri lynch as progression because he didn't think Capri was scummy, or at least not the scummiest, if I remember correctly.) It's happened to me before, actually...someone got so fixated on "Mizzy is scum!" that they ended up losing us the game when they mislynched me during the endgame and I seriously hope that doesn't happen again. So far in 3 separate games, 3 different people who were town were entirely convinced I was scum (Ether, Adel and Flameaxe) and every one of them was

wrong

. That's why I'm not voting Skruffs, as much as I'd like to...because history has shown me that just because someone is a tunnel-visioned dork, it doesn't mean they are scum for it.

[Andycyca]

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

This analogy fails a little bit. A wagon usually gives us more information (the wagoned's defense, the reasons for lynching, etc) even if it doesn't end in a lynch. However, even when Capri had a lot of votes on him he didn't contribute back. which left us with basically nothing. (it seems that Yosarian2 and I agree, see 520

So basically, even if that lynch wasn't a good one, I can say I put my money where my mouth was.

[Andycyca]

skruffs: Seriously? You find people to be buddying because they don't

quote

each other? That is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Why is it necessary for each person to directly address each other person, anyway?

This is good stuff.

Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

This too. Mainly because the first thing she did was to attack the hammer (which obviously, someone had to do it in EVERY lynch) for the timing. Not a very good lead IMHO. However, she's responded well, and I don't see anything else worth mentioning. Currently, she stands on "partially scummy" status.

[Andycyca]

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so

vote:Eldred

I (momentarily) disagree with Yosarian2. I don't think those are valid reasons (yet) to ensure a vote, but I'll reread an Eldarad-only thread and will post my opinion.

On that note let me add some WIFOM to the game
..... No one read it though because it is WIFOM and cannot be proven but I am only posting this because I "don't want the town to consider it because it is WIFOM but it is a gut feeling I have".........

1. Please don't add unnecessary WIFOM and/or senseless logic
2. Scumhunting shouldn't be based on avatars and the flavor text.

(Sorry for the triple-post, I usually merge my posts, but I'm still a little dizzy from yesterday)

[Yosarian2]

Really not liking Rotten Snitch again here. Along with my day 1 reasons, today it feels like all he's doing is lurking and making excuses for lurking. He hasn't said much about the wagon yesterday or what could be gained by it, he didn't response to the Mizzy/Eldred debate, or to anything else really, and he hasn't given any hint about who he thinks is scummy.

fos:rotten snitch

Looks to me like he was trying to fly under the radar, Mizzy called him on it, and now he's in defensive mode. Rotton Snitch, I need to hear what YOU think. If you had to pick, right now, who would you say is most likely to be scum in your mind?

On a side note, there's nothing inherently wrong with looking for connections based on who avoids commenting on who else; scum often do carefully avoid commenting on each other. However, you can't really go on just that alone; it's more useful as something to look for once you've found a scum, or when a person avoids commenting on the main issue of the day, because individual townies obveously often just dosn't bother commenting on other specific individuals when there's no real reason to comment on them.

[Rotten Snitch]

Yos I have already stated that Skruffs is the tippest tops of my scum list followed by a quick second of Mizzy and Zindy. Mizzy called me out for lurking??? I have just as much activity in this game as some of the others. I understand you want more of an explanation but the weekend for me is not the best time. I will give more coming next week.

I really think that if there are more than two badguys then it is the above mentioned three. If not then it is a combination. I do not like Skruffs posts. Although they do make sense in some ways they just make ya feel like he is intentionally leading you. Don't like that. rather make my own observations. I really don't like Mizzy's activity. Although that may sound odd I think her almost 100 posts pretty much clog up the thread and make it harder to reference for suspicious activity. Zindy I get a bad vibe from. I do not like from the first few posts Skruffs was out to get him. This was all based on Meta and the exchange between them had 0% current game-scum hunting-pro town-content.

More next week though. I hope you all have a fun weekened I plan on getting smashed.
Cheers

[Yosarian2]

That was the first real thing you've said all day, Rotton Snitch, you only did it in response to pressure about your lack of contrabution, and you were incredibly vauge about it. If you think Skruffs is scum, could you explain why? Same with Mizzy or Zindy. What have they done that makes you think they're likely to be scum, exactally?

[eldarad]

And, quite frankly, eldarad, my entire point is that most people, in fact, did not put their money where their mouth was, see the real vote count in 471.

I disagree. Specifically, I don't think it is valid to exclude some votes as being "not genuine." I don't agree that certain kinds of votes have less weight than others. Although certainly I agree that we can question the motivation behind the vote.
I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

Do you think it's productive to ignore your main suspect in favour of reaching a consensus?

I absolutely believe that consensus is the only way the town will lynch, especially once we get to the deadline phase:

I enjoyed this game, but I'd like to comment on the 48 hour posting rule.

I don't think it really helped activity at all. We just ended up with people posting half-thoughts or two line posts just checking in. It just made it hard to get a grip on what people thought about the game.

Link to original post
So, I don't find it at all surprising that some people settled for second best, given the enforced activity mechanic. I'm sure it will happen several times during the course of the game. I think that the emergence of consensus lynches in this game is a positive thing.

What do you think of Skruffs's linking Mizzy/me into a scumteam? Do you agree with his logic? Which points do you agree with? Which points do you disagree with? Why?

Personally, my issue is Mizzy's attitude Today towards the Capri wagoners from her position as a non-voter.
You'll notice that I have not made a case for you as scum as yet - although I note that you have similar attitude to Mizzy with respect of not being on the Capri wagon and therefore being somehow beyond reproach Today.
I find this to be a far stronger link between you and Mizzy than an analysis of quotes.

That being said, that dosn't mean that there weren't any scum on the wagon, of course. At the moment, I'm thinking Eldred; it feels like he's massivly over-reacted to some fairly reasonable and vauge posts by Mizzy, to the point where he's giving me a "scum who knows he's pushed a bad wagon" vibe. It's kind of a gut thing, but it's the best I've got at the moment, so vote:Eldred

I was reacting as much to the vagueness as anything else. I really don't like how Mizzy is attacking a group of players in such an unspecified way and then claiming she isn't attacking anyone because she hasn't voted yet. The fact that she is using her position Yesterday of opposing the Capri lynch (in a weak, non-committal way) just makes me more confident that something here doesn't stack up.
Why do you think that Mizzy's vague attacks are OK? How are vague attacks better than specific attacks on specific people?