Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)


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Post Post #475 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:14 pm

Post by Zindaras »

Skruffs wrote:In what instance is a no-lynch better than the lynch of someone who is voting for themself, on a day one?
Obviously, there are more variables than just voting yourself here, but I never argued for a no lynch over a Capri-lynch. I'm saying that the whole "We lynch Capri or we don't lynch at all"-gig that's going on here right now is, well, just plain wrong.
Mizzy and zindy: in what instances do two players express, in all ways other than verbal acknowledgment, confidence in each other's alignment? I can think of three but maybe you can extrapolate..
Masons, investigative roles or just logical deduction/gut.

I don't see your point, though. I simply pushed for the wagon I felt was best. The fact that Capricious was Town doesn't invalidate his wagon. The fact that Capricious was Town simply means there was an incentive for the wolves to lynch him. Therefore, it is only logical to analyze the wagon and see if there were people on it who just didn't do it the way they should've. You can call this holier-than-thou, but if I had voted Capri, you could've called it hypocritical, so there's a nice damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
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Post Post #476 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:27 am

Post by Skruffs »

So there *are* werewolves? Because other than in flavor text, I haven't seen any indication that we actually are up against wolves.

"Zindaras whistles, and she looks up. Her prodstick brushes Elmo's body, which falls over. There is a ghastly expression on his face, or at least, most of it." Strappado's death doesn't even REFER To how she died.

So other than the flavoring, which we h ave no reason to believe means ANYTHING, there's nothing that concretely suggests that there are werewolves, wolves, lupines erectus, or anything like that in our midst. Unless you just slipped, because you are one?

And if someone was treating me as a townie, and buddying up to me as hard core as the two of you are to each other, I Would be suspicious, unless I was masons, and even then I would be suspicious about why my partner was tying himself to me so strongly.

You are not playing in the townie manner to which I am accustomed, Zindaras.
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Post Post #477 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:42 am

Post by Mizzy »

Skruffs wrote:And if someone was treating me as a townie, and buddying up to me as hard core as the two of you are to each other, I Would be suspicious, unless I was masons, and even then I would be suspicious about why my partner was tying himself to me so strongly.
I'm going to assume by this and your previous posts that you mean myself and Zind are buddying up. If my assumptions are correct, then I'd appreciate some proof here, because honestly, saying that something is so doesn't actually make it so.

And by proof, I mean direct quotes. Not paraphrasing or alluding to past posts. Actual. Quotes.
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Post Post #478 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:10 am

Post by Zindaras »

Skruffs wrote:So there *are* werewolves? Because other than in flavor text, I haven't seen any indication that we actually are up against wolves.

"Zindaras whistles, and she looks up. Her prodstick brushes Elmo's body, which falls over. There is a ghastly expression on his face, or at least, most of it." Strappado's death doesn't even REFER To how she died.

So other than the flavoring, which we h ave no reason to believe means ANYTHING, there's nothing that concretely suggests that there are werewolves, wolves, lupines erectus, or anything like that in our midst. Unless you just slipped, because you are one?
I signed up for a game which tells me to look for wolves, so, for that game, wolves become the thing I'm looking for, not mafia (all the tells remain the same, it just means I'm looking for canines rather than Italians). I do not put stock in some ridiculous theory which supposes that Ether told us that there would be werewolves in the game only to surprise us with there not being any werewolves in the game afterwards. It's like attacking someone over the use of "Assassins" in Assassins in the Palace. It's semantics, and useless semantics to boot. There is no hard proof for there not being any werewolves, like Ether told us. You quote the DPs and say they're indicative of there not being wolves. But they're not indicative of there not being wolves, they just don't indicate anything (and, honestly, if you would draw any conclusion from Elmo's "ghastly expression", it would be that he was killed by something scary. Wolves? Scary).
And if someone was treating me as a townie, and buddying up to me as hard core as the two of you are to each other, I Would be suspicious, unless I was masons, and even then I would be suspicious about why my partner was tying himself to me so strongly.
I don't even know who you're talking about. The logical conclusion from your post would be Mizzy and me, but I don't see this supposed "buddying". So, point it out.
You are not playing in the townie manner to which I am accustomed, Zindaras.
I thought you were accustomed to me being scum?
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68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
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Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
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Post Post #479 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:59 am

Post by Y »

Skruffs, enjoy:
Ether wrote:Elmo quietly goes through Capricious's wallet. There's a bit of money and a library card--that's it. You know that other towns sometimes have mafia problems, and mafiates can be identified by their standard concealable water guns.
But how do you recognize an enemy that uses its own body to kill?

At this point, the moon conveniently rises. Capricious's body doesn't change at all. You scatter before the real werewolves can change, 'cause then they'd probably eat you.
I also don't see the Zindaras-Mizzy pair you're mentioning.
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Post Post #480 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:22 am

Post by Ether »

Day 2, Votecount 1 wrote:1 Mizzy (Skruffs)

8 Unvote (Andycyca, eldarad, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Y, Yosarian2, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
LOUDER
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Post Post #481 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:24 am

Post by Zindaras »

I think his point is that there's nothing that outright proves there are wolves and therefore the opposite is true.

Yes, it is a very silly point.

Still, Y, there's a lot more you should be saying than that. What do you think of Andy's hammer? Why did you vote Capricious?
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68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
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Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
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Post Post #482 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:29 am

Post by eldarad »

Zindaras wrote:As far as my vote went, I felt Y was scum (and I didn't see Capri as a good target). This was more important to me at the time than securing a lynch, because, well, I did not view a no lynch as a serious possibility.
In what way was a no-lynch not a serious possibility? How was posting "I'm still here" benefiting anyone? From where I'm standing you were just happy staying well clear of the Capri wagon. Which now gives you lots of scope for attacking the people who actually put their vote where their mouth was and ended up mislynching a townie.
Mizzy wrote:I never said I was 100% sure he was town
Well of course not. But you said that you were pretty damn sure. Whilst also leaving yourself the cop out of "well, if it avoids a no-lynch, I'd vote Capri, but I'd do it thinking he wasn't scum"
Which is a convenient way of setting yourself up as the reluctant townie, lynching someone (you know to be) a townie because everyone else told you to.

I kinda see Skruffs' Mizzy-Zindy link, but for me the thing that sticks out is how both of them have adopted this "I wasn't on the Capri wagon, and therefore I have clean hands" attitude.
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Post Post #483 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:33 am

Post by Zindaras »

I was ill/busy for a couple of days, and then I started taking up asking questions again, see 442 and 443.

And, quite frankly, eldarad, my entire point is that most people, in fact, did
not
put their money where their mouth was, see the real vote count in 471.
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68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
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Post Post #484 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:50 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Zindaras wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
Zindaras wrote: "Hi, Capri wasn't scum and I didn't really like lynching him even though I voted him."
Um, yes, and I made that 100% clear yesterday. You're acting like I'm being hypocritical here, when that's the exact same thing I said before we lynched him. I would have loved to have a better bandwagon yesterday, but it just wasn't going to happen.
I didn't like it yesterday either, but I was obviously focusing on Andy's decision to hammer back then.

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches. The only reason to lynch someone is because you think they're scum (barring deadline issues). You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking. But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.
My main suspect had been RS, which is who I was voting for before I voted for Capi.

When I voted for Capi, there were, I think, 4 votes on him, no one else had more then 1 vote, and we'd already been in a "any day could be deadline" situation for, what, a week or more? Something like that? And there was absolutly no momentum pushing in any other real direction.

At that point, I only saw the day ending in 1 of 3 ways:

1. A no-lynch happeneing when inevitably sooner or later we don't have 6 people posting in a day. Could have happened at any time.

2. Capi showed up and started doing a better job defending himself, answering questions and/or claiming, doing a good enough job that the people currently voting him would leave the wagon and go elsewhere

or

3. Capi got lynched.

That was the only 3 possibilities, and I wanted it to be either #2 or #3. By the way I voted for him, you can probably tell that I was primarally hoping to scare him enough so he'd defend himself or claim or something, but was also willing to see him lynched if he wouldn't do that. And when he posted after my vote, he continued to ignore me, continued to refuse to even try and explain his actions or whatever.

Basically, I was hoping that if he was town, that he'd give me an everyone else a reason to unvote him so we could move on, and he just refused to do it, for reasons I still don't understand. So, yeah, I think the fact he was not at all defending himself at that point made his lynch inevitable. And while I only though there was, say, a 40-45% chance he was scum, that's still better then a no-lynch if those are my two options.
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Post Post #485 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:49 pm

Post by Mizzy »

eldarad wrote:Well of course not. But you said that you were pretty damn sure. Whilst also leaving yourself the cop out of "well, if it avoids a no-lynch, I'd vote Capri, but I'd do it thinking he wasn't scum"
Which is a convenient way of setting yourself up as the reluctant townie, lynching someone (you know to be) a townie because everyone else told you to.

I kinda see Skruffs' Mizzy-Zindy link, but for me the thing that sticks out is how both of them have adopted this "I wasn't on the Capri wagon, and therefore I have clean hands" attitude.
I said that his play(s) was/were town to me; I have a very strong pro-towner read on him. I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that.

And what, I'm supposed to just be okay with a probable mislynch just because we have strict deadlines? I know a no-lynch is horrible but I don't want us settling for mislynches either. And yes, while I feel that my hands are clean, I'm also not holding it over anyone's head.

While you guys are pointing fingers left and right and pushing blame around, you might consider scumhunting a little, too.
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Post Post #486 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:06 am

Post by Rotten Snitch »

Yos I agree with you that there was going to be no change in mindset and no other bandwagons were going to form (although I don’t agree that you would probably have preferred to see me hanging). Capri was just a villager he did not claim so we did not know at the time, we needed a lynch. We have all agreed that a no lynch is worse than a mis-lynch. Although….. If half the bandwagon didn’t think Capri was scum then it should have been easy to change the wagon. WTF? You all voted for Capri although you didn’t want to, you all had the power to change the wagon.

What I don’t like about Andy was that he threw his whole vote on Eldarad in his 449. he answered Eldrad’s questions as grounds for voting Andy.
This almost makes it look like Eldrad is at fault for Andy’s actions. Eldrad asks why people are not voting, Andy votes.

He referenced his two posts which state a quick lynch is better than at least trying for something different even after he stated that Capri was not the scummiest. This is ridiculous logic, he wants a quick lynch in 408 but states he does not think Capri is scum

Andy’s 423 stated “even if Capri isn't the scummier right now, he should claim quickly or die”
I don’t see this as anything but aggressive and threatening. There are better ways of asking questions. I see aggressiveness mixed with indecisiveness a scummy thing. Andy stated that Capri wasn’t scummy in his opinion but still said “claim or die”
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Post Post #487 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:01 am

Post by Y »

Here's why I voted Capricious. This is almost the same post I was going to write before the lynch, with a few changes made knowing his real alignment:
Posts 38-39:
Capricious tried to over analyze the N0 kill. Not only that, but he was implying that I should have been killed for being a strong townie (While using as an example a game on which I was scum). I also get from him the same strategy I used, as scum, in that game - "The choice is illogical, I wouldn't do that as scum".
Post 61:
Capricious answers eldarad's questions, but he's obviously avoiding real answers.
Post 98:
"Last time you voted me I was town, and I guessed right who the scum were, and no one believed me. The town will lose if you lynch me". Using emotions and completely irrelevant information as defence - Never good.
Post 103:
Admitting he used meta information, and not good info.
Post 104:
Quotes another player's suggestion for discussion (Mizzy), and leaves it as is. Just a "Look at me, you're just thinking I'm not really playing the game, but I do". That's plain-sight-lurking if you ask me.
Post 107:
Accuses hasdgfas for actually telling the town exactly that. Also he says he believes there are werewolves, but wolfsbane won't help. "I believe werewolves exist. I believe fighting werewolves won't help. Choose one". That's the same "I'm here! I'm doing things!".
Post 112:
Completely missing my point and accuses me for things I didn't say. He also contradicts what he said about wolfsbane in 107.
Post 114:
Completely contradicting his 107 by saying power-roles probably do have wolfsbane. I believed, at the time, that he either knew something, or was trying to lure some one to slip and say something about wolfsbane.
Posts 116-117:
Obviously accusing people without knowing what he's talking about.
Post 151:
Talks to eldarad and then votes for Andycyca. No reason given.
Posts 168-169:
Actually saying voting me had a good reason (It didn't). Remembers to actually say something about the Andycyca vote.
Posts 192-195:
Protecting Skruffs' irrelevant meta-gaming. Misrepresents eldarad's post. Discards Mizzy's post with no explanation.
Post 214:
"I'm stupid". Poor Capricious uses emotions again.
Post 227:
Feel is important, but he's completely dismissing everything else. That's understandable, for some one who ignores logic most of the time.
Post 262-263:
Self vote, to avoid a no-lynch (After saying we shouldn't do so in 194. Calling for an Andycyca's lynch D2.
Post 267:
Calling people pro-town. No explanation. Again.
Post 271:
Adding other people to the "good list". Same lack of reasoning.
Post 274:
"Elmo is town for defending me when I do something stupid".
Post 293:
"Town are creators, scum are concluders". Weird, I saw no real creations from Capricious.
Post 297-298:
Andycyca is no longer scum. Capricious uses the last post as an excuse to let it go. Defends the illogical statement from 274.
Post 316:
"I'm here". Doing nothing, but here.
Post 320:
Another list without real explanation. The two people he actually explains his thoughts about are me and eldarad. Both of us are "Maybe, maybe not" in his post.
Posts 364-366:
Glorifies Mizzy again. "She must be town for defending me". Of course, there's no possibility for her to be scum, getting confirmed for protecting a townie who's about to get lynched, right?
Suddenly attacks hasdgfas. Doesn't really care he's on his way to the noose.
Posts 368-370:
Attacks Zindaras too. Shooting in the dark?
Post 403:
"Everybody, just follow me".
Some meta:
Last time I played with him, he disappeared once he was about to get lynched as scum, not giving too much of a fight.

As a whole, I got the feeling that he's just trying to put suspicion on people, giving no importance to how or why. The way he accused and defended people seemed completely disconnected to the actual way those players played the game.

I played with Capricious and I know his logic might be off sometimes, and I think Skruffs is scum, so Skruffs was my better choice. When we got close to deadline and we needed a lynch, Capricious not being such a good player seemed to be much less important than all the other things he did.

As to Andycyca's hammer, I think he was just tired of the day dragging along. I actually hoped some one would do that already, since no real progression was being made. I believe it was a compulsive action. Not necessarily a good one, but not definitely a scum action. I also believe that it was obvious he'd be questioned about it, and would be the easiest target for the scum to push toward a lynch.
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Post Post #488 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:38 am

Post by Andycyca »

I had reasons to hammer, since yesterday we had a bunch of "No-deadline-no-info" posts, which meant dragging the first day without really moving the game. I stated on several occasions my inconformity with the game status under the deadline (which was my main reason to post only when I had something to add to the discussion rather than extending the deadline "to see what others have to say") Also, IIRC Capri didn't even tried to shake the wagon off him.
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Post Post #489 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:22 am

Post by Mizzy »

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

According to Y's post, the major driving force behind lynching Capri was because he was doing some stupid shit. Not that he was doing scummy shit. What gives with that? If we lynched every moron, we'd have more ghost-towns than anything.

I suppose I can understand why Andy hammered, even if the timing and reasoning is questionable to me.

In the future, can we try and lynch people we think are scum? Maybe? No more of this, "Well, he's a little scummy...not the scummiest, but we need ANY lynch" bullshit? Please?
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Post Post #490 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:10 am

Post by Skruffs »

I hadn't noticed that thing about Capricious. Thanks Y. I don't see Zindaras quoting it, so I have no idea if he actually noticed it or not.

I do not see where in the game it *said* something along the lines of "I signed up for a game which tells me to look for wolves", and I do not see where him not turning into a werewolf MEANS that there are werewolves, BUT, I am okay with assuming that there are werewolves. I just note that Zindaras seems to be more sure of it than I Am.


Secondarily, I am surprised, Mizzy, that you are flabbergasted where these allegations of you and Zindaras buddying up to each other came from. BAsically since the first vote on either of you, both of you have been defending each other, and I do not believe I have seen either of you direct aNY questioning towards eeach other; in short, both of you have tsarted from the get-go with the belief that the other is town, or at least not worth scrutinizing. That's supcious.


Zindaras: Investigations would only be accurate if one was a cop, one was a godfather. THe godfather would say "Oh, this person thinks I am town ; since they are not in my mafia group, they must have inspected me night 0." A townie would say "Is this person buddying up to me because they inspected me, or because they are mafia?"



We have TWO WEEKS from the beginning of hte day to find a good lynch. After that, We are playing a very risky game by guessing that enough players will post to beat the continually recurring deadline, over and over again. XZindaras avoided the entire first day of deadline, but made an effort after that. Mizzy distracted from potentiial wagons, but posted, perhaps as an excuse to ohurt the town while looking like she was helping it. IF she is a cop who investigated Zindaras, there's no reason for her to also think Capricious is town; she only has one investigation. IF she is a mason with Zindaras, she again has no reason to think Capricious (or anyone else) is town. IF she is mafia, tshe can afford to get townie-points by denigrating wagons on pro-town players so that she looks like a better scum hunter, WITHOUT Actually doing any scum hunting herslef, which would keep the cop from looking at her at anight.


This is why I am voting her.
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Post Post #491 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:16 am

Post by eldarad »

Mizzy wrote:I said that his play(s) was/were town to me; I have a very strong pro-towner read on him. I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that.
So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum? Since when was intelligence linked to alignment?
Mizzy wrote:And what, I'm supposed to just be okay with a probable mislynch just because we have strict deadlines? I know a no-lynch is horrible but I don't want us settling for mislynches either.
Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.
Mizzy wrote:And yes, while I feel that my hands are clean, I'm also not holding it over anyone's head.
Yes you are. Every post you've made today has been criticising the Capri wagon, criticising the people on the Capri wagon, bemoaning our lynch of a poor innocent villager...
Mizzy wrote:Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.
Really? You think that refusing to provide a defence constitutes a valid defence? Or is this just another excuse to attack the Capri wagon?

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Post Post #492 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:40 am

Post by Mizzy »

Skruffs wrote:Secondarily, I am surprised, Mizzy, that you are flabbergasted where these allegations of you and Zindaras buddying up to each other came from. BAsically since the first vote on either of you, both of you have been defending each other, and I do not believe I have seen either of you direct aNY questioning towards eeach other; in short, both of you have tsarted from the get-go with the belief that the other is town, or at least not worth scrutinizing. That's supcious.
I believe I asked for proof, Skruffs, PROOF. Not made-up bullshit. Not re-tellings, actual quoted PROOF. Multiple times. The fact that you continuously refuse any kind of proof is suspicious. It's like dodging questions.
eldarad wrote:So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum? Since when was intelligence linked to alignment?
Where in my sentence did I say that? I said, "I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that." I didn't say, "He was a moron, so he MUST be town." Open your eyes, try reading sometime, and then get back to me.
eldarad wrote:Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.
Firstly, half the people on the Capri wagon ADMITTED that they were settling for the lesser-scummy target, and just wanted a lynch. Even Andy said as much. Secondly, I haven't actually attacked anyone, though, now have I? If you were trying to lynch scum, you failed, miserably, and ignored everything that several of us said about Capri.

I wasn't the only person who didn't vote, and I sure as hell wasn't the only person who said he was prob-town. Go attack them too, just to be fair.
eldarad wrote:Yes you are. Every post you've made today has been criticising the Capri wagon, criticising the people on the Capri wagon, bemoaning our lynch of a poor innocent villager...
Yes, and that makes me so, so very scummy, doesn't it? I was RIGHT. You think I'm going to back down when I'm right and proven to be right about something? I'm a woman; of course I'm not.

Anyone who's played with me or read any of my games will know how much of a self-righteous wench I am when proven right. And sometimes, in general, whether or not I'm proven right. Don't expect me to just sit back and let people I think are town get mislynched and then not call people on it the next day.
eldarad wrote:Really? You think that refusing to provide a defence constitutes a valid defence? Or is this just another excuse to attack the Capri wagon?
Who needs an excuse to attack something as obviously scummy as the Capri-wagon? And no one is ASKING me for a defense. Not only that, but that sentence was aimed at Andy's 488 and not you.

You know what I think? I think that no one wants to take responsibility. If there had been a no-lynch, I'd have taken responsibility for not voting for a lynch, but now that there was a mislynch, all I see are people hiding under rocks and saying, "Well, he deserved it," or "He didn't fight back!" That's utter bullshit and when a town does shit like that, scum win easier because the town is just going to LET them win. UGH.

Sorry, mood swing over. Carry on.
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Post Post #493 (ISO) » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:45 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

fos:eldred
Didn't like that last post of his.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #494 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:56 am

Post by Skruffs »

Okay.

Zindaras started off voting me. I called him out on it. You ignored my call out on that, and joined in on voting me.. Why?

Capricious says that Zindaras, me, and elmo are cats and therefore scum, and you say, wouldn't cxats be pro town?

Zindaras agrees with and says he likes you already. He then unvotes from me and hops on Capricious; and Elmo, who Capri also said was scum (in his demented way) follows.

Zindaras says that he is ac ultist and recruited me, and you ignore that, too, to talk about your affinity for cute things.

Y says the last time Capricious tried to get him lynched, he was scummed, and Zindaras expresses interest in this line of thinking: he asks for proof. He then voted Capricious. And all through this you are setting up your later "But I hate leaving random stages" by trying to put "kittah" into every post while ignoring actually interacting on more than a very surface level play. Wether you have a huge fetish for random stages or not, trying to keep the game superficial, even at the beginning, or at least trying to keep your OWN interactions superficial, doesn't win up helping hte town later on. ESPECIALLY when you then fall back on that play style when you ask for "proof" later on that you did ANYTHING, because it now just looks more obvious that you took pains to discredit yourself early in the game.


So, I will do it the opposite way. The game started at hte beginning of MArch: Your first post was on MArch 3rd. You quoted Zindaras two hours after your first post. You do not directly quote Zindaras, or ask Zindaras a direct question, or do ANYTHING to indicate anything but complete trust of him until.....
*Searching*

On March 18th you question my questioning of him, by saying that I can't Meta Zindaras. You didn't tell Zindaras that he couldn't meta Capricious when he voted him (as I said earlier in this poist) though. I mean, you attacked Capricious yourself in the same post. Did you tell anyone, before you told me I couldn't meta Zindaras, that they couldn't Meta? I don't think so. So why did metaing Zindaras trigger that? WHy the defense of someone that you have no reason to believe is innocent?

This is relevant to your attitutde today:

You
FOS
me later for 'distracting from the two scum candidates' by putting attention on Zindaras: That is BLATANTLY saying, "I don't want Zindaras to be considered scum". Guess what, the candidate that you wanted to keep the attention on, Capricious? He turned out to be town, and you are now FOSSING people for lynching him, when you yourself was pushing for attention to be kept on him and NOT OTHER PEOPLE. (I later call you out on that and you try to backtrack)


When I Call you out on that the first time and accuse Zindaras of his super-star playstyle, you do make an effort to distance: You give him an
IGMEOY
but then immediately weaken it by saying you don't want to flip flop your votes; ie it doesn't mean anything. You later fall back on that by saying that since you are already EYEing zindaras, there's really nothing else warranted against him. So the IGMEOY was basically just a faux-note, something you could rely on later to bounce attention away from Zindaras yourself.



Let me get this correct: Y started a case against Capricious, you followed Zindaras onto Capricious (just like you followed him onto me) y ou try to keep attention on Capricious and not Zindaras (or presumably anyone else) And then shortly before deadline, you change your vote to me, FOS capricious, berate me for not putting a case TO YOUR liking together against Zindaras while at the same time trying to DETRACT any case against Zindaras and NOT putting ANY Thought into him yourself, and then when Capricious is lynched and turn up town, you immediately begin ot berate the people who were voting him.


Are you going to accuse me of factless argument here? CAn you say that you didni't do any of those things in the above paragraph? Considering I referenced the posts in which you did most if not all of those in the paragraphs above?
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Post Post #495 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:59 am

Post by Skruffs »

Lastly: You never do direct quote Zindaras after March 8th or so; you don't even address him directly until April 5th, a full month after hte game started. Buddying by omission.
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Post Post #496 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:08 am

Post by Mizzy »

Skruffs:
I still don't see quotes but I suppose this is as good as we're going to get out of you.
Ever.
It would really help responding to these types of things if you would provide post numbers, because seriously, I'm not going to respond to vague accusations when you can't even be fucked to show where they're coming from.

Firstly, during the random vote stage, most of us were being playful. It wasn't just Zind and me, it was Capri and you also, as you admit. I can't believe you're using random stage play so seriously...it's as WIFOM as it gets.

As for yelling about Meta bullshit, I yelled at SEVERAL people for it, not just you. I was on Rotten for it, and asked people to stop doing it because it is a distraction to town. Don't see how that's buddying.

Discrediting myself early in the game? By being
playful
? Yeah, right. I'm playful by nature. It's a null-tell at best.

And why I questioned your meta-ing of Zindaras is pretty important. I questioned it because of how stupid it was. If you had meta-ed ANYone that way, I'd have pointed out how stupid it was, and always will every time I see it. Not to mention you keep flip-flopping back and forth from, "Zindy is ALWAYS scum" to "I'm not used to Zindytown acting this way." You seriously don't even know what you're talking about. No wonder no one ever takes you seriously.

And wait, are you addressing me and Zindy in the same post without indication of who is meant for what? Or are you getting your facts mixed up? Because I didn't FoS you today. Zindy FoSed you. Or did you mean yesterday and say today?

See this is why your posting and cases are so shitty, Skruffs. Your thoughts are hard to follow and incoherent, and there's no quotes or post numbers. It's just a bunch of blah-blah with nothing to back it up or fall back on.

If you have any legitimate questions for me, I'll answer them, but right now I'm having a really hard time taking you seriously.
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Post Post #497 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:09 am

Post by Mizzy »

Skruffs wrote:Lastly: You never do direct quote Zindaras after March 8th or so; you don't even address him directly until April 5th, a full month after hte game started. Buddying by omission.
The whole argument is too WIFOM to even touch on. The fact that you're so hung up on it shows you for the VI you are.
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Post Post #498 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:46 am

Post by Y »

What's "VI", exactly?
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Post Post #499 (ISO) » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:18 am

Post by Y »

Mizzy wrote:According to Y's post, the major driving force behind lynching Capri was because he was doing some stupid shit. Not that he was doing scummy shit. What gives with that? If we lynched every moron, we'd have more ghost-towns than anything.
Lurking isn't scummy? Using wrong/baseless accusations to put suspicion on people isn't scummy? What about not adding real info for discussion, while trying to appear as if he does?

You can't say he wasn't scummy. I saw him doing the same mistakes he did here when he was my scum partner. What I got from his play style (And you can clearly see it in post 38), is that he tries to get rid of the stronger players and remain with the weaker ones. You can definitely see that in Newbie 546 (Post 106 on that game, in particular).

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