California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)


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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:25 pm

Post by Mr. Grey »

Vote Count:
8 to lynch.

Xtoxm: 5 (Machiavellian-Mafia, MichelSableheart, MrBuddyLee, Niv, SensFan)
Machiavellian-Mafia: 2 (NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear)
Gaspar: 1 (Thesp)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Xtoxm)
Niv: 1 (BBMars)
PookyTheMagicalBear: 1 (vollkan)
SensFan: 1 (Rogueben)
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:50 pm

Post by vollkan »

Niv wrote:
vollkan wrote:EBWOP: "every post you have made" means "every post you have made
in this game
"...just so you don't get the wrong idea :D
Ok this should really be obvious, why did you post this?
Because I just told him to post a list of every game he had been in at the same time as telling him to explain every post.

I did not want him to get grumpy and refuse the request, thinking I had asked him too much, so I made clear what I wanted.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:44 pm

Post by BBMars »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Ok Niv.

Tell me in 200 words or less why you believe I am scum with Xtoxm.
Minor FOS: Pooky.
Why 200 words or less? That's imposing an artificial limit on the person, whose explanation may or may not require more words than that.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:12 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Are you fucking seriouS?
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:17 pm

Post by Niv »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:One)Why would scum decide to stage something like this?>

Two)What do you think a protown player in my position should do instead of what I have done? Since you feel that I am forming a scum link with him, what do you suppose a protown player would've done instead? Argue for why this move is superior to the move I have chosen.

3) How do you expect X to scumhunt? Do you believe he is not making a geniune effort? if so what evidence leads you to conclude this?
1: i can't tell you, but this whole senario seams staged to me. i could be just a distraction tactic. but I couldn't tell you why.

2: possibly do something that looks more genuine, as, yes i understand thatyou are trying to get something out of X, but again it feels staged.

3: I don't care how X scumhunts, as long it finds scum more often than throwing darts at a dart board. he is not making a geuine effort beacuse he gave up this early at the time he was pushed to -2. and right now it dosent even look like he is paying attention to what people are doiung. he really dosent look like he is trying.

Also at Pooky: could you please link to other games wher you have used this style of questoning, as i even think your questions to me are staged, and I know we are not partners. it may just be the way you ask questions.
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:58 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

One) So you think it looks staged, but you can fthink of no reason why we would stage it?

Two) Do you think i geniunely dont care why he has done what he has done" I'm not quite sure why you think i am being disingenious.

Three) Again you bring up this geniune thing, how do you know he is being disingenious? What causes you to believe this? Do you think that if he were town and fustrated at being wagoned he would not act out the way he has?
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It's like witnessing an slow but unavoidable train crash you can't stop."

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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:09 pm

Post by vollkan »

Niv wrote: 1: i can't tell you, but this whole senario seams staged to me. i could be just a distraction tactic. but I couldn't tell you why.
Right. In other words, you are declaring Pooky's actions to be suspect, despite supplying absolutely no reasons for that assertion.

I don't see how it can be a distraction tactic when it got us a valuable look inside X's head. But, even if it COULD be a distraction tactic, it's purely conspiratorial to raise that suggestion.
Niv wrote: 2: possibly do something that looks more genuine, as, yes i understand thatyou are trying to get something out of X, but again it
feels
staged.
Bzzt!

To paraphrase: I recognise that you did something for the purpose of acquiring information, but I don't believe it looks genuine. However, I lack reasons for asserting it to be staged, so I am just going to say it feels (a word from the
Index
) staged so that I can flub off the need to back up my insinuations.
Niv wrote: 3: I don't care how X scumhunts, as long it finds scum more often than throwing darts at a dart board. he is not making a geuine effort beacuse he gave up this early at the time he was pushed to -2. and right now it dosent even look like he is paying attention to what people are doiung. he really dosent look like he is trying.
I ditto Pooky's question on this point.

Niv is escalated to 70% for what is an atrocious post.

Unvote, Vote: Niv
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:27 pm

Post by FaerieLord »

niv wrote:For my 89, are you talking about my spelling/typing.
No
nn wrote:@FaerieLord: Any particular reason you followed MBL's lead in listing scummy posts?
That's the way I always do it. MBL just happened to do it before me

Unvote, Vote Niv
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:30 pm

Post by FaerieLord »

I voted Niv above for that terrible post answering pooky
1: i can't tell you, but this whole senario seams staged to me. i could be just a distraction tactic. but I couldn't tell you why.
First accuses it of being staged, but then answers that he has no idea why scum would stage it
2: possibly do something that looks more genuine, as, yes i understand thatyou are trying to get something out of X, but again it feels staged.
Says yet again that it is staged.
3: I don't care how X scumhunts, as long it finds scum more often than throwing darts at a dart board. he is not making a geuine effort beacuse he gave up this early at the time he was pushed to -2. and right now it dosent even look like he is paying attention to what people are doiung. he really dosent look like he is trying.
I partially agree that he could have tried harder here, but please do answer pooky's question.
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:40 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Hi FL.

Do you believe Niv is scum?

If you believe so, do you believe Xt is also scum?

How would Niv's scumminess effect Xt's scumminess?

What do you think the odds of Xt and Niv both being scum are?

We at PRS LLC have noticed a fine streak of strong writing from you, would you lik to join our fine staff on hand? This is a job offer, your starting position would be junior associate with the firm.
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That evil teddy bear has got everyone twirling by his thumb.
It's like witnessing an slow but unavoidable train crash you can't stop."

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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:50 pm

Post by Mr. Grey »

Vote Count:
8 to lynch.

Xtoxm: 5 (Machiavellian-Mafia, MichelSableheart, MrBuddyLee, Niv, SensFan)
Niv: 3 (BBMars, FaerieLord, vollkan)
Machiavellian-Mafia: 2 (NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear)
Gaspar: 1 (Thesp)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Xtoxm)
SensFan: 1 (Rogueben)

Current Condorcet Winner:
None. Current Smith Set: FaerieLord, Machiavellian-Mafia, Niv, SensFan, Xtoxm

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put this information in this form.

Important Note:
When compiling Condorcet lists, I am treating unvotes as a complete reset of the list. If you wish to retain the same (or similar) list when unvoting or changing your vote, please post another copy of the list.
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:42 pm

Post by MichelSableheart »

Currently, there is no condorcet winner. The list at the bottom of my vote is an updated ranking, but my placement of Niv at the top is an attempt to make sure there will be a condorcet winner as well as risen suspicion.

Please note that the fact that Mr. Grey does not appear in the condorcet list above does not mean he can't be voted for. Gaspar was the only player who had added Mr. Grey to his list, and he unvoted before that condorcet was posted.




Xtoxm, take a look at my post #155. In it, I say what I believe is scummy about your posts. I definately don't like the fact that you give no response to it whatsoever, but ask in post #169 what you should defend against. Some of your remarks when you explain your thoughts still left some questions.
Xtoxm wrote:
Xtoxm wrote:Yes
As my memory serves me, this is an affirmatie response to a silly question from Niv.
If my memory serves me, he asked whether you believed people could be lurking 36 hours into the game. Why is that a silly question?
Xtoxm wrote:The first bit explains itself...The second paragraph is in response to you. It refer's to the condorcet voting method. I'm sure you'll agree you were quite harsh in your attack there. I was stating my uncertainty of what it is/does, and my intention not to use it. It just seemed like something I should add.
Why exactly is it your intention not to use condorcet?
Xtoxm wrote:Annoyance about picking up the majority on the vote count, and acceptance that it looks like i'm gonna be lynched. Added a joke about defeating Gorrad. Wasn't really thinking too much about anything else here. Probably posted too quicky, think I was L-4/3 or something.
Why would you accept that it looks like you're going to be lynched? Why not try to change that?

I would still like answers from Xtoxm, but I'm starting to think his play is poor rather then scummy.




I agree that Niv's mentioning of the link between Pooky and Xtoxm for reasons he can't explain is rather scummy. It irks me a bit that it's Pooky who's pushing for that reasoning though: pooky doesn't do much explaining himself.

Where has Thesp's latest good post gone?

Unvote

Vote
Niv,
Xtoxm
, Rogueben, MrBuddyLee, FaerieLord, Thesp, BBMars, SensFan, Machiavellian-Mafia, Gaspar, vollkan, NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear, {curiouskarmadog, Gorrad, IH, Nibbler Twins, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro}, Mr. Grey, No Lynch, MichelSableheart
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:14 am

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Hello Michael.

What do you think the odds of Niv and X both being scum are?

I'd like to know because they're on top of your condorcet.

Which one do you think is more likely to be scum?

Why do you feel so ambivalent in your Niv vote? It sounds like you blame me for Niv's thoughts.

Do you?
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:09 am

Post by MichelSableheart »

It's possible but unlikely that both are scum in the same scumgroup. If both are scum, it's more likely they're in different scumgroups (should those be in the game), though. However, I'm far from sure that either of them is scum. In fact, I believe it is more likely that scum are using them as scapegoats. However, I would need to do quite a bit of rereading to discover who is taking most advantage of their weak positions.

Of the two, Niv is more likely to be scum. Xtoxm gives more of a VI feeling, especially because I don't see the advantage scum Xtoxm would gain by behaving the way he does. My vote is still on Xtoxm in the hope that he'll read my reasons for it and respond to those.

Allthough I am suspicious of Niv, even more suspicious then I am of Xtoxm, the main reason he is at the top of my condorcet is that, if I am correctly, his placement there should break the tie in the condorcet ratings, and give us a clear condorcet winner.
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:53 am

Post by FaerieLord »

pooky wrote: Do you believe Niv is scum?
I believe he is playing very scummily.
pooky wrote:If you believe so, do you believe Xt is also scum?
Again, xt is also playing scummily

This doesn't necessarily mean that both of them are scum, it means that both of them are playing scummily, thus both need to either change their ways, convincing us they are town, or die for playing scummily without rememdy
pooky wrote:How would Niv's scumminess effect Xt's scumminess?

What do you think the odds of Xt and Niv both being scum are?
I see it that if Niv dies and comes out as scum, Xt's scumminess will go down a bit

If Niv is scum, I doubt Xt is scum (mostly WIFOM) though. So no, I don't see them both as scum together.
pooky wrote:We at PRS LLC have noticed a fine streak of strong writing from you, would you lik to join our fine staff on hand? This is a job offer, your starting position would be junior associate with the firm.
Elaborate?
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:17 am

Post by Gaspar »

(Glork.)
Vollkan wrote:an atrocious post
Not to sound like a jerk, but this is not a rare thing for Niv.

I'm liking Fae even less now, moving Thesp up for the time being. BBMars is in the upper echelon of my list, though I honestly don't remember why, and I haven't bothered to look back yet (and I'm too lazy to do so right now). Primate and I have had rumblings about Rogueben and, I think, SensFan. I'm going to try to catch Primate sometime today to review with him.


Pooky, Xtox, Niv, and Vollkan are probably protown. Thus, a tentative condorcet:
Vote: FaerieLord
, Thesp, BBMars, {people}, Niv, Xtoxm, Vollkan, Pooky, No Lynch, Gaspar
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:14 pm

Post by Niv »

PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:One) So you think it looks staged, but you can fthink of no reason why we would stage it?

Two) Do you think i geniunely dont care why he has done what he has done" I'm not quite sure why you think i am being disingenious.

Three) Again you bring up this geniune thing, how do you know he is being disingenious? What causes you to believe this? Do you think that if he were town and fustrated at being wagoned he would not act out the way he has?
I'm talking about you. Every question feels ver articulated and forced.

Pooky, since you seem to e consistantally, could you answer this: when you play mafia, and you ask questons, do you always ask them in this over articulated manner, beacuse its that whih is making me feel odd
It's never too late to dig yourself out of a hole with the truth, unless you've been investigated as scum. I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet. So get to work helping us track down your fellow dirtbags! ~ MBL
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:26 pm

Post by Niv »

It's never too late to dig yourself out of a hole with the truth, unless you've been investigated as scum. I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet. So get to work helping us track down your fellow dirtbags! ~ MBL
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:13 pm

Post by SensFan »

Meh, don't expect me to meta you at all. I don't see metas as being of any help, and often people will change their game on purpose to wreck them. The fact you re so forthcoming about it makes me even more suspicious about using those games as a meta.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:04 am

Post by Thesp »

As per V/LA thread, power at my house has been knocked out since Friday afternoon - I'm posting here at work, but may not be able to catch up until power is back on (which may be as late as Wednesday). I will do my best to keep pace, sorry about the inconvenience.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:09 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

Dear Mr. NabokovMcNabokov,

Why did you take the time to tell everyone that you didn't like my first attempt at scumhunting this game and then not even list me in your list of possible scum? Looks like posturing to me.

Also, to others: please don't ask us to metagame you early on day one. Unless you are more entertaining to read than Penthouse Forum.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:04 am

Post by FaerieLord »

@MBL. Niv roleplayed as a gay fashionista in one of his games, so that could be amusing if you're into it.

Other than that not a lot of new material
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:43 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

MrBuddyLee wrote:Dear Mr. NabokovMcNabokov,

Why did you take the time to tell everyone that you didn't like my first attempt at scumhunting this game and then not even list me in your list of possible scum? Looks like posturing to me.
I find them grating in a personal sense in that it's plainly frustrating to go back and find the posts and figure out why any one thing might be scummy (I generally consider quoting and pointing to be the responsibility of the person who wants to make a case, not everybody else). I feel there is also a slight effect in which one can list a lot of posts by one player, not explain why that player is scummy, but have an apparently justified vote because so many of that player's posts showed up on your scummy list. (Like you did with Xtoxm and FL almost did). But it's just a feeling.

It's not a big deal, but you are absolutely right, it was an oversight not to mention you too. I apologize.

Unvote
Vote: Machiavellian-Mafia,
Sensfan, MrBuddyLee, FaerieLord, {others present}, {others not present}, No Lynch, NabNab
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:55 am

Post by Machiavellian-Mafia »

Xtoxm wrote:MM prob is scum.
What's your reasoning for this statement? Why did you not vote me if you thought I was likely to be scum? Do you think MBL is even more probable than me to be scum?
NN wrote:Pooky's questions deal with understanding Xtoxm's thought processes, which is something we all need to do before coming to a conclusion on whether or not he should be lynched. Your questions were phrased as traps and would have continued the cycle of ignorance that built the Xtoxm bandwagon in the first place. Learn the difference.
All my questions also aim to further understand Xtoxm. If Xtoxm had answered them there is definitely a greater than 0% chance that he will be seen less scummier than before, unlike what you depict my questions to be. Your defense of Xtoxm is noted.
Pooky wrote:Two)What do you think a protown player in my position should do instead of what I have done? Since you feel that I am forming a scum link with him, what do you suppose a protown player would've done instead? Argue for why this move is superior to the move I have chosen.
Since you imply that your questions for Xtoxm to explain his thought processes is a protown thing to do, wouldn't you say it's also a protown thing for
you
to explain your thought processes behind your own ratings?

Niv also emerges from the pack with his illogical Post 204.
  • Vote: Xtoxm

  • PookyTheMagicalBear
  • Niv
  • {BBMars, FaerieLord, Gaspar, MichelSableheart, MrBuddyLee, NabakovNabakov, Rogueben, SensFan, Thesp, vollkan}
  • No Lynch
  • {curiouskarmadog, Gorrad, IH, Nibbler Twins, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro}
  • MM
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:21 am

Post by NabakovNabakov »

Machiavellian-Mafia wrote: 1. Address your stance on MBL now that he has a few more posts with content
2. Address specifically other relative lurkers and if you consider them scummy
3. Address specifically who on your wagon is scum and why
The first question gives Xtoxm a "stance" on MBL when all he had done at that point was call him a lurker prematurely. Did you seriously expect him to answer with a serious analysis of MBL's inscrutable list? A large portion of the posts on Lee's list were Xtoxm's, so I doubt he would have any idea why MBL considered them scummy in the first place let alone be able to defend or comment.

The second aims to keep Xtoxm's... unique stance on lurking in the discussion. This whole thing started when Xtoxm accused MBL of lurking, and now you're telling him to do the
exact same thing
with other players.

The third is similar to the second in that it takes a stupid thing that Xtoxm said and tries to further it.

Maybe it isn't intentional, but these questions are traps. Xtoxm makes a stupid call on MBL for lurking, so you ask him to analyze the most opaque post of the entire game. Xtoxm's views of what does and doesn't qualify as lurking put him in hot water, so you ask him to tell you who the lurkers are. Xtoxm makes a generalization that it's fairly obvious he can't back up, so you tell him to do so.

And yes, I am defending Xtoxm. I have a tendency to cut players a break when it seems they really don't have a handle on the game (Meta me, it's true*), and I'm taking the roughly 25% chance (diluted from what I see as town VI tells and indications of dirty wagoning) that his role was actually a scum one.

*jk
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"Shut up!" one woman shouted at another.

"You shut up!" the second woman shouted back.

"I agree with NN"
-Yosarian2

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