Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: I've also never seen a game with less votes thrown by page 11. This isn't the carebears meets the teletubbies people.

If you suspect someone, if you think they're scum, VOTE!

Official Vote Count

BridgesAndBaloons - 2 (Amor, Muerrto)

curiouskarmadog - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)

Not Voting - 6 (backinblack167, cerebus3, curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Radio_Interference, WeyounsLastClone)

5 to Lynch

[Amor]

Also, "I can't imagine scum would be so obvious" is total WIFOM.

Why is this WIFOM?

Hmm. I just looked at the WIFOM page on the wiki and it doesn't seem to fit what I mean here, though I've seen the term used in this situation. Nevertheless, it's still a fallacy, for pretty much the same reasons. "It's so scummy no scum would do it" could be used to excuse any scum action.

Also, this is sort of an obscure fact, but BaB is a newbie. There's no reason to assume he would know he was acting scummy.

PPS. I'm even more agressive than CDK and Occult put together, ask Vel. Please don't get offended or upset at anything I say. This is mafia, the game where I call you a liar and you defend yourself, period. I don't pull punches.

Welcome! Nothing wrong with being agressive, as long as you have good arguments behind it.

[Muerrto]

Also, "I can't imagine scum would be so obvious" is total WIFOM.

Why is this WIFOM?

Hmm. I just looked at the WIFOM page on the wiki and it doesn't seem to fit what I mean here, though I've seen the term used in this situation. Nevertheless, it's still a fallacy, for pretty much the same reasons. "It's so scummy no scum would do it" could be used to excuse any scum action.

No, this is WIFOM. Definitely, not sure why that was debated.

WIFOM - Scum wouldn't be so obvious so I'm obviously not scum, but since that's the case I could do it and claim I'm not scum when I am, but since...

WIFOM. Period. Who was debating that again?

[cerebus3]

Hmm. I just looked at the WIFOM page on the wiki and it doesn't seem to fit what I mean here, though I've seen the term used in this situation. Nevertheless, it's still a fallacy, for pretty much the same reasons. "It's so scummy no scum would do it" could be used to excuse any scum action.

Also, this is sort of an obscure fact, but BaB is a newbie. There's no reason to assume he would know he was acting scummy.

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, right?

Vote: Amor

for emphasis.

There, I voted.

I am leery of WLC. He might normally be quiet, but the only thing he has really done I have been getting scummy vibes from. I really want him to at least scum hunt a little.

[cerebus3]

WIFOM - Scum wouldn't be so obvious so I'm obviously not scum, but since that's the case I could do it and claim I'm not scum when I am, but since...

That isn't what is being debated. We all know that is WIFOM, but Amor is saying CKD is the one WIFOMing by pointing this out.

[Muerrto]

Hehe so it's WIFOM to point out WIFOM? Um...I'm gonna go lie down...

No, yeah, that's wrong.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

BnB backing off Occult too easily, could be newbie, claiming his vote was 'random' is disturbing and BS, IMO, that doesn't say newbie to me as much


BaB seems to back off anytime he's attacked,

I disagree extremely strongly with this. Sure, I did this once with Occult, but if you read the game again, you'll see I didn't do it again.

I didn't even think Amor was scummy until he changed his posting style and attacked me. (note: I thought he was scummy because of the sudden change in style, not because he attacked

me

.) When I re-read the game, I realized he thought I was scum for the beginning, and that's why I decided he wasn't scum. It wasn't because he attacked me. I then I was suspicious of Bib (and he didn't attack me, and I changed my voting based on my own ideas, not being attacked.)

also, why is everyone being so careful? BaB says he's being careful and not voting Amor and calls Amor for voting him

I agree. I was being too careful with my votes from before. I've realized that votes can be used for many other things besides lynching someone. Your vote for instance, sparks discussion.

Bab getting ticked now, votes CKD b/c he's insulted, really heated discussions here ppl, let's breathe and chill

wrong wrong. CKD was definitely not an OMGUS vote.

So since my current suspiscions lie on BaB I have to assume CKD is simply pissed at BaB's posting, which is understandable.

I realize you are trying to generate discussion by attacking me, but you're making the same mistake as Amor did in 265. If someone I'm attacking looks scummy, but you think I'm scummier, don't suddenly think that the person I'm attacking isn't scum. There's many things wrong with that, that I'd point out if you want. I wrote a bit about it in 267.

Thanks for coming Muerto! There's something I like about the way you post.

[Muerrto]

If someone I'm attacking looks scummy, but you think I'm scummier, don't suddenly think that the person I'm attacking isn't scum. There's many things wrong with that, that I'd point out if you want. I wrote a bit about it in 267.

Hehe so did I:

CKD - I read this thread part way before getting my PM and I had Bogzie pegged as scum. IC's don't blow up like that. Then I got to the point where he left and since I've been there done that I can see he was definitely sincere. CKD however doing the same thing towards BaB bothers me. I don't see it as distancing, that'd be a crazy strategy since BaB and CKD never could've spoken since CKD was a replacement and I don't see them pulling it off. So since my current suspiscions lie on BaB I have to assume CKD is simply pissed at BaB's posting, which is understandable.

So basically because I currently suspect you and I don't see your interaction w/CKD as distancing I have to assume he's town

at this time

because I'm assuming you're scum, right?

[curiouskarmadog]

dont post that often during weekends, unless I have time..

did note that he have another replacement...although I just skimmed at this point...hopefully will address this thread tomorrow.

[JimSauce]

Welcome Muerrto. I won't try to get you lynched because of your aggressiveness this time. (Though, I'll note that you're trying to turn this game into a bloodbath. )

woh. I consider this a little scummy. I disagree: I believe that the conversation has been becoming more and more helpful.

1) Votes can easily stimulate conversation. You stated this in your last post.
2) No votes have been put down for weeks (more or less, I didn't bother check.)
3) Amor also suggested that we discuss other suspects.

I agree that the discussion with you and CKD is beginning to go somewhere (I'm very grateful for this, by the way), but I don't find Amor's suggestion that scummy. I'm noting the slight contradiction with the quote above and your last post.

[Amor]

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, right?

Vote: Amor

for emphasis.

There, I voted.

Um, where did I contradict myself? And why was it vote-worthy?

[cerebus3]

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, right?

Vote: Amor

for emphasis.

There, I voted.

Um, where did I contradict myself? And why was it vote-worthy?

Sentence #1: Excusing someone because that action was too scummy and he must not have realized he was scummy doesn't follow.

Sentence #2: Maybe he didn't realize he was scummy?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

1) Votes can easily stimulate conversation. You stated this in your last post.
2) No votes have been put down for weeks (more or less, I didn't bother check.)
3) Amor also suggested that we discuss other suspects.

[...]

I'm noting the slight contradiction with the quote above and your last post.

huh? I totally agree with all of those. I think that asking for a deadline while our discussion is getting better is scummy. Why stop if if we're going somewhere? Maybe because he's afraid we'll get on to him? That's why it's scummy. You have totally misread me. I agree with all three of those points and never disagreed. Where's the contradiction?

I agree with Cerb, I was going to mention Amor suddenly defending me as strange. I was going to mention it but I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.
Oh! I agree with Cerb again, I second the idea that WLC needs to do some scum hunting.

[Amor]

Sentence #1: Excusing someone because that action was too scummy and he must not have realized he was scummy doesn't follow.

Sentence #2: Maybe he didn't realize he was scummy?

I obviously wasn't being clear enough. The second sentance was saying that if BaB were mafia, he wouldn't neccesarily know what the signs are anyway, so it's wrong to say that he would have avoided them if he were scum. I wasn't defending BaB here, but attacking the "too obvious" defense. I was saying that even if you think a "scum wouldn't be this obvious" argument is generally valid, in this specific case it doesn't make sense either way. I was pointing out two different reasons why this idea is flawed.

(I feel that you're misrepresenting my posts in the above quote, but I also was having trouble finding the right words when I posted it earlier, so I'll let it go.)

And how is the contradiction you saw scummy, much less worthy of a vote?

BaB, you say that you think the discussion was getting better, but in 263 (two posts before where I said we should move on), you said this:

I'm really sick of this, I feel that you are the one that is causing the circle to occur. You attack me in all of your posts (liar, spinning, ect.) and I'm forced to respond. This leads the town nowhere. I'm honestly trying to break this up, but when you call me a liar I'm forced to respond.

Why the change?

[Amor]

EBWOP:

I think that asking for a deadline while our discussion is getting better is scummy.

Where did I ask for a deadline? I said that if people thought you or CKD were scum they should start voting, and if not they should start discussing other people. Nowhere did I say that there should be a mod deadline.

[cerebus3]

I obviously wasn't being clear enough. The second sentance was saying that if BaB were mafia, he wouldn't neccesarily know what the signs are anyway, so it's wrong to say that he would have avoided them if he were scum. I wasn't defending BaB here, but attacking the "too obvious" defense. I was saying that even if you think a "scum wouldn't be this obvious" argument is generally valid, in this specific case it doesn't make sense either way. I was pointing out two different reasons why this idea is flawed.

I think I see what you are getting at, but what you have suggested is (ironically) WIFOM. If he doesn't realize the things he is doing is scummy, then he is just as likely to do it as town then as scum. What you have pointed out shows why it is a null-tell, and not a townie tell, but it also is not a scum-tell. That said, if you want to hold him accountable to his actions, by all means go ahead.

And how is the contradiction you saw scummy, much less worthy of a vote?

You certainly responded quickly, didn't you?

[JimSauce]

huh? I totally agree with all of those. I think that asking for a deadline while our discussion is getting better is scummy. Why stop if if we're going somewhere? Maybe because he's afraid we'll get on to him? That's why it's scummy. You have totally misread me. I agree with all three of those points and never disagreed. Where's the contradiction?

Amor never asked for a deadline.

[Muerrto]

Hm...alot of semantics arguing, not really productive. I'll try and post some questions later today.

[curiouskarmadog]

BAB---

1.)

I then ask you where I have posted that I was going to post a case and you come back with.

1) You never

said

were building a case, but you implied that you were working on something on posts 118 and 137. I guess I was kind of hoping you were making a case,

So you gave me a strike for not posting a case. You want people to think I am scummy for not posting a case when I said I would.

Stop putting words in some one's mouth. This is not the first time you have done this.

You have no right telling me what I want.

I don't want the town to think you're scummy. I want the town to have more evidence to see who the scum is.

I want them to decide for themselves.

Since i so strongly believe you are the scum, I want the town to have more evidence about you.

Please explain to me why you have an issue with my statement? You want people to have more evidence that I am scum, right? So how is that any different than “you want people to think I am scummy”? Also, you sort of evade the question but I will reinstate it in the semantics you prefer. You want people to think I am scum given the “evidence” that I had not posted a case yet. How is this evidence that I am scummy? if you have answered why this is scum evidence please repost.

2.)

If you still want to push that my DIRECT examples were vague, please explain how my vagues examples are scummy.

you avoided this question, while playing the semantics of the word “vague” But please answer the question (if you have answered it before, please repost it if you could). Why were my specific examples (even though I included the statement that almost anything could be considered scummy) evidence that I am scum.

3.)

it is a huge jump based on faulty assumptions. Recent Example: You stated I was scummy because I stated I would post a case and hadn’t.

This is

the only

case you have. You are accenting it to try to make your case stronger.

You say this is my "only" case, but you directly avoid the questions associated with it. I will post them again (and bold) so you don’t miss them.

Recent Example: You stated I was scummy because I stated I would post a case and hadn’t. The truth is I never said I was going to put forth a case. But lets say I did for all arguments sake.

Why is that scummy?

Maybe I wanted to wait to get more information…maybe I wanted to wait because I wasn’t as sure I knew who scum was? Maybe I didn’t want to push a case because there wasn’t a case to push.

So, you ASSUME that I have scummy intentions because I didn’t post a case and you JUMP to the conclusion I am scum, when the truth is, you have no clue my motivations.

Please explain how this is not spinning an action to push your case?

Also, why did you chose to avoid answering the questions while replying to my post the first time? Why is this point “weak”? “50 posts back” you wanted people to think that me not posting was “evidence” that I was scum, but you can not explain why it is evidence I am scum. When I ask you about it, you think it is a weak point. Please explain.

5.) I know you think I am scummy, but I still don’t really know why. Please explain to me why you think I am scum. Give me 3-5 “points of evidence” why I must be scum. FI you could, please put it in a separate post, than the answer to the above questions, I want to make sure I don’t miss them.


RI,

[CKD]

When do you think you're going to have that last post for us?

what does it matter? Is that stopping you from posting your thoughts on BAB, myself, or other people? What were your thoughts on my first (long) post to BAB. BAB’s reply to mine? Why when you were prodded, did you feel like it was important to ask me where my “final” post to BAB was when there were 4 other people that had to be prodded?

Black,

this is my point, I can pull about 3 different posts where BiB states he either has a good feeling about me, doesnt understand the attack on me, or feels I am protown.

now that some in town have stated suspicion of me, if tune changes without reason.

why all of the sudden am I a scum pair in two out of your 4 scum pairs..with no reason why when several posts before I was protown...what changed?

Nothing changed. My feelings are still pretty much the same on you. BaB asked me for possible scumpairs/strong connections, and I provided pairs based on current and past prominent connections and interactions that made sense to me. Others were left out because their interactions and connections with others in previous posts either A) didn't stand out to me as an important or strong connection or B) were insignificant.

So do you find me scummy or not? IF so, when did that start and why?

Black, what is your opinion of JS, do you still feel like he isn’t taking stances? Also interested in your opinion of RI.

JS,

also noted is Jim Sauce's stance that BAB and I are the best two scum suspects right now (if I misread your post, please feel free to correct me). This is a classic set up of, if one turns out to me town, the other MUST be scum.....

Not really. My belief that you two aren't scum-partners doesn't mean one must be scum. In addition to that, my suspicions on you wouldn't change if BaB was lynched right now and turned up town.

I wonder if anybody here is fitting such a bill.

*sidles out of the room*

If BAB was lynched right now and turned up scum, would your opinion of me change? If so why? Why exactly do you have suspicions of me (and BAB) right now? When did they start?

I also note you picked up on my slight implication of suspicion of your timing of your posts (suspicious), but you weren’t the only one that was directed at.

WLC,

It's funny though. In other games placing votes is mainly used to get discussion going, but in this game there are few votes, and there's a lot more discussion than in other games I played.

Yes then do, any reason you haven’t commented on other votes that are out there? Any thoughts on why people feel like you are lurking? You have any particular views on lurking? Do you feel like you are helping the town at this point? Why or why not?

[WeyounsLastClone]

Welcome Muerrto! A fresh breathe of air in what turned mostly into a ckd/BaB argument where I really didn't know who of the two is scum (that's if actually one of them is; it's really hard for me to believe they're both scum).

WLC,

It's funny though. In other games placing votes is mainly used to get discussion going, but in this game there are few votes, and there's a lot more discussion than in other games I played.

Yes then do, any reason you haven’t commented on other votes that are out there? Any thoughts on why people feel like you are lurking? You have any particular views on lurking? Do you feel like you are helping the town at this point? Why or why not?

I know my behavior isn't really helping town. I know that I am lurking. But it's just that in my previous games that at the moment I started posting my (often incoherent ) thoughts, people started suspecting me. It's not a reason to keep quiet, I know, but it does make me want to think about what I say before I post. And in this game I haven't come up with a really plausible scenario yet as to who is scum or not.

I still find Occult's history in this game a bit strange, going with a strong vocal start, disappearing in the background. Not sure about Muerrto yet, but what I get up til now makes me think he's actually town.

BaB I still see as a townie, who is a bit confused at times, but really pushes himself to argue and help town, even if he doesn't bring forward the best arguments all the time. But when you post as much as he has done, it can't all be pearls.

Amor and cerebus, I'm in the middle about. Leaning towards town. They seem to be genuinely searching/wondering who are scum.

Radio_Interference broadcasts townie feelings to me. Not getting lost in semantics, or kind of useless discussions, but bringing up good points and interesting views.

The three I find the most suspicious at the moment are ckd/jimsauce/backinblack. Seemingly helpful sometimes, but there's something in their questioning/reasoning that's trying to manipulating things that are not there. Of these three I find bib the most suspicious but he sneaks in some arguments sometimes, trying to steer but not really acting in the foreground.

So, in order to get on moving, voting for the one I find the most suspicious at this time.

Vote backinblack

.

[Muerrto]

So here we go:

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell?

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.


Now my answers:

1. Are they sincere? Some. What's 'alt' was definitely sincere and understandable. Jumping on, voting Occult/me, then backing off and saying it was a 'random' vote? No way.

Too numerous? Very much so. When you cry wolf all the time eventually no one buys it or they just stop listening. The 'VI' thing was insulting but technically you brought it on yourself by pulling the 'newbie' excuse too often. You're new, we understand, so are most other players in a newbie game. If you have questions, ask.

Justified? Some. This is a newbie game but there's a limit. You can't learn to swim if we hold you over the water, you have to get in.

Does it matter? When the questions and 'newbie' claims are too numerous it does. He's used his experience as a shield to excuse anything he's done. I've seen newbie scum place a lynch -1 without reason and claim it's because they're new. They were lynched as scum. He hasn't done anything that drastic but he's claimed it as an excuse to say/do alot of things and to take back even more.


2. I really don't like people asking for or supporting a deadline. If I'm town I want the day to last as long as possible IF it means we'll bag scum. Was the game stagnated? Yeah but as an IC he should've been used to that. Was it premature? Yeah but he did seem genuinely frustrated with the pace of the game, hence the 'this game is moving way too fast' comment at the start of his posts.

Deadlines are always retractable because the Mod has ultimate control. Even an 'unretractable deadline' can be reatracted by the mod because it's HIS game. He can do what he wants.

Asking for a deadline can be a scum tell. In this case, ignoring the fact that it's me and I know my role, it wasn't. He was clearly frustrated with the participation and the pace. It's not like he asked for it to be tomorrow, it did spark discussion, and he wasn't calling for a specific lynch on anyone. It was made a much bigger deal than it should have.


3. Lurking always bothers me. Anyone can post once every other day, period. I don't care how many games you're in.

Is it a scum tell? No, period. Too many people play that card. Lurking can mean you're busy, you're bored with the game, you're new and nervous, you forgot to post, etc. It's never a scum tell, it's a null tell. Now if they pick up their prod and STILL don't post, THAT is a scum tell, which hasn't happened.

Have they improved their participation? Yes. Black is inputing more, WLC has had some good posts. Just like the deadline thing and the personal attacks, they were situational, not really a scum tell, and shouldn't be dwelled on.


4. Theroy discussions are great. In general discussion. This is a newbie game but arguing the definition of 'VI' and 'WIFOM' definitely distracts from the point of the game, scum hunting. Talking about them for pages is overboard. Educating the newbies is what these games are for but going into such detail is just bogging them down with useless facts. Let them read the wiki and the strategy discussions later.

Can they be used as scum tells? Semantics and definition disagreements? Why? What advantage would scum have arguing over what's WIFOM and what's a fallacy? That's why they're distracting because they don't scum hunt. Trying to catch someone putting up a WIFOM statement and not recognizing it as such or claiming something is 'too townie' etc just doesn't help. It distracts. Always try to keep it to a minimum.


5. RI. His playstyle is definitely interesting. Does it make it easy to hide in plain sight? Most definitely.

When you were asked if you were an alt you simply said 'no'. Later when it was disbelieved further, you said you had extensive experience in both RL and online with this game(werewolf is the same thing). The first answer was a lie of omission and I have to believe had you not been called on it you would have stood by your join date. That's deceptive and bothers me greatly. It's a good way to later be able to pull the newbie card without actually being a newbie.

Is that a scum tell? No. Is deception a scum tactic? Yes. Could you have thought your experience in the game didn't matter? Possibly but when you were called on it you should've spoken up instead of simply saying you're not an alt. It doesn't make me want to vote you, but it makes me want to watch you closely.


6. People are people. (please don't take offense)BaB is kind of a frustrating player. His posts are jumbled, he has alot of questions, it's understandable CKD would get upset. Is it weird that his predecessor ALSO got upset about a totally different thing and ended up leaving the game? Yes. Again, it doesn't make me vote him, but it does make me wary.

Is showing emotion a scum tell? Not always. Bog was genuinely upset as seen by his leaving the game. CKD was genuinely upset at BaB's posts. I don't see either as scum tells seperately. The strange coincidence that both of them did it does bother me however.


That's it. Looking forward to everyone's answers.

[Muerrto]

EBWOP: Forgot to mention, please answer the question even if it's about you like I did in question #2. And try to do it from a third person perspective. Thanks.

[Radio_Interference]

Krrzzzt.....

...n this case, a rep...

[Statement]

I have a problem with this question-

Muerrto Wrote:

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he

first claimed

? Did it bother you that

he claimed to be new

and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

[Response]

I never claimed to be new to the game of mafia, just the forum version. I never claimed any experience level until Bab asked me about it. I took the alt thing at the beggining of the game as people wondering if I was an alt based on my posting style, as it came up before I posted anything substantial. After Bab asked if I had any experience at all with this game I told my experience. If I had wanted to hide it, making intellegent posts wasnt exactly the smart thing to do was it?

[Statement]

Probalby have more tomorrow

*Transmission out*

[Muerrto]

Krrzzzt.....

...n this case, a rep...

[Statement]

I have a problem with this question-

Muerrto Wrote:

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he

first claimed

? Did it bother you that

he claimed to be new

and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

[Response]

I never claimed to be new to the game of mafia, just the forum version. I never claimed any experience level until Bab asked me about it. I took the alt thing at the beggining of the game as people wondering if I was an alt based on my posting style, as it came up before I posted anything substantial. After Bab asked if I had any experience at all with this game I told my experience. If I had wanted to hide it, making intellegent posts wasnt exactly the smart thing to do was it?

[Statement]

Probalby have more tomorrow

*Transmission out*

The information still appeared to be kind of held back IMO. I didn't even FoS you for it, simply said it's cause for me to watch you. Your experience alone is cause for that. I'd think that would be a compliment.

Something to hide?

[JimSauce]

WLC, please elaborate your suspicions on me or bring up a quote. I don't understand how my questions or logic manipulate anything.

1)

If BAB was lynched right now and turned up scum, would your opinion of me change? If so why?

2)

Why exactly do you have suspicions of me (and BAB) right now? When did they start?

(I'm going to respond to these in third person, if you don't mind.)

1)

I would consider CKD more likely town as I don't think this is bussing.

2a)

CKD's last few posts have been somewhat calmer. My suspicions revolve around the way he handled Bridges's accusations earlier in the thread. With the rather experienced insightful posts from CKD when he replaced in, I found it odd that a portion of his defenses and accusations attempted to discredit Bridges (repeating phrases that imply he's either blind or an idiot, calling his posts hard to follow, etc.). I started suspecting him when he lashed out at Bridges.

2b)

Bridges: I never found his Occult-case fiasco as scummy as many players made it out to be, and in turn didn't think that it warranted most of the game's attention. Earlier in the thread (like, when he and CKD were dominating the bloody page) Bridges didn't always respond to accusations and defenses but rather countered with more attacks (backed up with the troubling certainty of CKD's alignment). His sometimes confusing posts comprised various response formats, and a few scum-hunting methods like lying (I know you made a mistake, but at the time you

were

lying) to "goad one into slipping up" seemed rather questionable. These suspicions began when he lashed out against CKD.

---

Muerrto's Q&A

1. I do in fact think his newbie claims are justified where they are used. Should it matter? Definitely; we can't let a player slip through because they're new to the game.

2. I believe his claim that it was to spark discussion. I also believe that he assumed early deadlines are retractable; so do I. Yes, it was a scum-tell because he approved of it on Page 2 without trying to stimulate conversation in a way that didn't bring anti-town consequences. I actually think it's a small point, though.

(Reading back, I see cerb thought that I brought more attention to this than was necessary. Why do you think this, especially when I only FoS'd while WLC put him at L-2, when I stated that it was the only thing I could respond to to get a conversation going, and when I only progressed the case in...two short posts?)

3. Yes, it bothers me. It is a scum-tell? Depends on the situation. If they disappear during the first two pages? No. (I KNOW someone is going to mention my FoS on Boggzie and say I contradicted myself, which is not true. I FoS'd because it was anti-town and to get him to post.) If they suddenly vanish when attacked? Yes (though, the player could be a frightened newbie). Backinblack has improved; I'm not so sure about WLC.

4. Yes, it distracts us, simply because it doesn't help find scum. (No, no.)

5. Definitely not. His post-style just organizes his thoughts. When he says [JimSauce] or [Statement] with a following message, he's not masking anything. Does he seem more experienced? Yes. RI cleared up the last bit.

6. Yes. Not because he's an IC, but because it's very different from his tone of posts earlier on. Is it weird? Yes, but then again both players were provoked. Is emotion a scum-tell? Depends. If someone mentions a player's most-likely scum partner and they explode with anger and/or anxiety, yes. In Boggzie's case (referring to Occult, not me)? No. In CKD's case? If he hadn't made his first posts in this game, no. In this case? Yes. (I would be quite frustrated too, though.)

7. Same here.

I also note you picked up on my slight implication of suspicion of your timing of your posts (suspicious), but you weren’t the only one that was directed at.

I know I'm guilty of it, and I know that others are as well.