Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:04 am

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

@Mr Stoofer what was your brand spanking new point you raised?
That Hur could be scum because he was speculating about the set up of the game?
Forgive me if I have this wrong but I think a few people had mentioned that on the first page.



Singing Librarian wrote:I've already said I don't like his style, so I really ought to go into more detail.
***Post 31 - FoSes Mr Stoofer for "trying to add more weight to an already suspicion laden person. Not that there is anything wrong with that" - if there's nothing wrong with it, there's nothing to FoS, surely, and pointing out things that are suspicious is good town play, worthy of (if there is such a thing) an anti-FoS if anything.
Read this as you wish, I have explained my reasons behind "if it is merited".
Singing Librarian wrote:***Post 39 - "I also viewed your overburdening of him with more suspicion suspicious" makes no sense. If something is suspicious, it should be pointed out, and not necessarily just once. If voicing a suspicion of someone who has already had suspicion voiced about them was suspicious, we'd never have any discussion.
Mr Stoofer wrote:I agree that merely repeating points someone else has made is sometimes a scum tell
This is what I believe Mr Stoofer was doing.
thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:If somebody adds to a bandwagon in a way you find suspicious is it then reasonable to find them suspicious also?
Singing Librarian wrote:***Post 51 - appears to find Mr Stoofer even more suspicious for repeating a question which tvod had not answered. (i.e. does tvod view Mr S's suspicion of lord_h as merited?). One thing you can almost guarantee in this game is that if you do not answer a question, it will get repeated either by the original questioner or someone else, so that shouldn't be surprising. Also, "I find it strange he needed me to coment on this first before he could say for himself he believed it merited." What? No, Mr Stoofer wanted a response. It was quite evident that he already believed the suspicion was merited, or he wouldn't have voiced it. What it looks like he wanted to know was whether tvod thought he was throwing out baseless accusations or jumping on a pointless bandwagon. It was evident to me that right or wrong, Mr Stoofer believed his suspicions had a basis in reality.

Ok so this comment got on the nerve of Mr Stoofer and a few others no doubt but I threw it in to see what sort of reaction I would get. Let me ask a question here, If you were scum and threw some suspicion on someone you would I expect want people to believe it was justified. If you were town and doing the same thing would you perhaps be less concerned about it appearing to have merit in the perception of others and say more concerned about the actual evidence of the suspicion?
Singing Librarian wrote:***Post 63 - Twists my hope to move discussion on to something fruitful into an attempt to stop it completely. Ditto for Musher333, who explains his reasons better than I did.
Yeah I'll give you this one.
Singing Librarian wrote:***Post 83 - Among the reasons for his vote on lord_hur is "asking for prods". Prods can only benefit town, not scum, as more involvement in the game means more information for said town and a better chance for discussion, debate and accurate lynching.
Ok I 'll give you this one too
Singing Librarian wrote:***Post 99 - Certainly seems to be suspecting Mr Stoofer more than lord_hur, even though he's still voting for lord_hur. Talks without actually answering any of the questions pointed his way.
I'm just going over an issue I have with one of Mr Stoofers posts, funnily enough the one I FoSed him for. I believe it is still in conversation right now. And what questions "pointed" my way did I not answer?
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:16 am

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

Ok for those that believe Mr Stoofer raised some great new point about lord_hur in this qutoe please try and explain it to me:
Mr Stoofer wrote:The following quotes make me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup than the rest of us (or at least: more than me).
By Mr Stoofers own quote:
Mr Stoofer wrote:What I meant was this: Scum inevitabley know more about the game than the Town. They are the informed minority. And they often cannot stop themselves from showing how clever they are by successfully "guessing" aspects of the setup. As JEEP said in the wiki:
So my analysis with the help of Mr Stoofer of the comment goes:
"me think that lord_hur knows more about this setup"="me think lord_hur scum"
"at least: more than me"="me think me town"

Anyway
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:35 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

My new point was that lord_hur appeared to have more information than anyone else. That is a known scum tell.

It was "new", because nobody had said that before.

Is that clear enough for you?
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:50 am

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

That I believe is a Mod Tell to have more information than anyone else.

Someone appearing to have more information than you is the same as someone appearing to be in the informed minority which is the same as someone appearing scummy.
Why was it a new point that lord_hur was scummy?
What is of more pointitude is what makes him appear to have more information, appear to be in the informed minority; appear to be scummy?

Thus because lord_hur was speculating about the role set up you thought him to have more information.
Not you thought him to have more information that is why I find him scummy.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:42 am

Post by Singing Librarian »

thevampireofdusseldorf wrote: And what questions "pointed" my way did I not answer?
Basically, the question Mr Stoofer had been asking you - did you personally believe that his suspicion of lord_hur was merited? You did not answer that at all. you said 'yes and no', but went on to qualify that, by actually talking about your own suspicions of Mr Stoofer. You completely avoided the actual question.
thevampireofdusseldorf wrote: Why was it a new point that lord_hur was scummy?
It wasn't!!! Nobody has ever suggested that. The suggestion is that Mr Stoofer pointed out that lord_hur seemed to have more information about the set-up in general than was public knowledge (though I disagree on that point). This was a new point, as the previous points had been about speculation in general. Mr Stoofer's point seemed to be about the difference between knowledge levels of scum and of town, which is *different* to what others had said about lord_hur.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:13 am

Post by Mr Stoofer »

I admire your attempts to reason with thevampireofdussledorf. Personally, I don't have the strength.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:50 am

Post by Musher333 »

thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:That I believe is a Mod Tell to have more information than anyone else.

Someone appearing to have more information than you is the same as someone appearing to be in the informed minority which is the same as someone appearing scummy.
Why was it a new point that lord_hur was scummy?
What is of more pointitude is what makes him appear to have more information, appear to be in the informed minority; appear to be scummy?

Thus because lord_hur was speculating about the role set up you thought him to have more information.
Not you thought him to have more information that is why I find him scummy.
To me you are digging yourself a deeper hole, sometimes when people are asking you questions you side-step them then post how you think this person is scummy.

@VoD will you answer stoofers question properly or will you continue to give non substantial answers?

@everyone else- are you not starting to think that VoD just doesnt want to answer for some reason we so far dont know of?
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:19 am

Post by undo »

Image

Not voting:
PyroDwarf, Shin Hatsubai

With 11 alive, it's
6 to lynch
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:00 am

Post by lord_hur »

Musher333 wrote:@everyone else- are you not starting to think that VoD just doesnt want to answer for some reason we so far dont know of?
I don't think VOD is trying to fool us. I think he's serious with every of his non-answers.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:24 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

@ Singing Librarian: I dont believe that the question has any point in answering in a yes or no manner. Yes Mr Stoofer had merit in being suspicious of lord_hur but no I dont think he was justified in posting it in the manner he did.
Singing Librarian wrote:The suggestion is that Mr Stoofer pointed out that lord_hur seemed to have more information about the set-up in general than was public knowledge
This suggestion is as good as saying he is in the informed minority or scum. Also this suggestion has no merit unless there is evidence that the person has more information, and this evidence that he had more information was because he was speculating. Mr Stoofer has admited that part. So why sould I believe that saying he appears to have more information to be adding a new point. Most reasonable players would know that scum like to speculate about game set ups because they have more information.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:34 pm

Post by SlySly »

@Musher

Honestly, at the moment, I am more interested in hearing why Mr. Stoofer called tVoD's lone vote a bandwagon than I am in hearing tVoD's answers to, IMO, less important questions.

Maybe I have missed something though. Is there an important question that has been asked of tVod that has not been addressed by tVod?

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@Guardian

You and Stoofer were both buddying up to each other in the posts I pointed out. That, combined with your completely meritless suspicions of me, combined with your plentiful agreeance of many points that Stoofer has made that I disagree with are why I find you as the most likely scum buddy of Mr. Stoofer.

How is me answering your silly question with a serious answer silly?

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@Mr. Stoofer

How is it a scum tell that lord_hur appeared to have more information about the setup than others? I totally disagree with your statement about this topic in Post 152. In fact, I get the feeling that your statement is a scum tactic trying to get lord_hur to reveal more about his role to your scumminess.

Let me drum up a hypothetical for you...

Let's say lord_hur's role is Bugs Bunny and Bugs Bunny is a power role of the town that has night actions. Wouldn't lord_hur's role give him more information about the setup of the game than some of the other players in the game without lord_hur being scummy for having such role information?

Would he not know that Bugs Bunny existed where the rest of us didn't?

I'm sorry, I don't find having that kind of info as scummy.

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@PyroDwarf

I agree with your statement in 129 that non-active players are better replaced than lynched.

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@tVoD

Making eloquent post is icing on the cake. Icing is not required. What is most important is the cake.

At some point, you just have to move on from pointless babble. It sounds to me that you are stuck in a few different battles over apples and oranges that are not really relevant or helpful to the town. Just my opinion.

If you meander too much in your posting and continue to fight over things that don't really matter, that can sure make townies think you are scum trying to create confusion. I have made this same mistake in the past and got mislynched because of it. You have to remember, scum like fighting with townies over things that don't matter, especially when they think the townie is the one coming off as stupid or wrong.

I have a really hard time following some of your posts, even after re-reading them. I get the feeling I am not the only one in this game having the same problem with your posting style.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:48 pm

Post by Guardian »

SlySly: scum generally don't buddy up to each other, intentionally. You say Stoofer and I were buddy buddy, and that means we're both scum...?
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:00 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

Ok I will drop my tow points from further discussion about Mr Stoofer as people find it hard to understand them when I try and explain things.

I dont think Mr Stoofer made any constructive helpful new point in post 30.
I have tried to explain why: If you dont understand too bad.

I belive Mr Stoofers reaction to my comment "if it is merited is" shows some scumminess.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:37 pm

Post by SlySly »

@Guardian

I never said anything was intentional. Your generalizing scum buddy statement has some merit. My vote on Mr. Stoofer is enough for the moment so I will downgrade your suspicion level...

unHoS:Guardian


but, still...

IGMEOY:Guardian


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@tVoD

I understand what you are saying now.

The caption of Stoofer's quote painting, in Post 30, amounted to "I think lord_hur knows more than I do about the game setup and possibly more than the rest of the players, too." Whether or not this is a new idea, I don't care. What I want to know is the motive behind the quote painting. There are many reasons scum would do this and only a few why town would. The few town reasons I can think of would have been followed up aggressively with focus that Mr. Stoofer never even hinted at trying to deliver. He just hung these possibly town damaging quotes out on his hook like a big fat worm just waiting for anything to bite to continue his town power role fishing trip.

I get the feeling that lord_hur's newbness claim is genuine. If I didn't buy into lord_hur's newbness, I could see this exchange as some possible distancing between these two in an attempt between scum buds to get the early role speculation snowball rolling. It is not beyond possibility that lord_hur's newb-card is craftily being played out with scummy intent.

In which post can I find Mr. Stoofer's reaction to your "if it is merited is" comment?
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:15 pm

Post by thevampireofdusseldorf »

Posts 32, 35, 40 all asking me if I found his suspicions merited or not.
Obviously suspicion was
seen
to be merited to be put on lord_hur but I did not like the way Mr_Stoofer did it. Thus if Mr Stoofer was scum he would have thought it a good time to throw some suspicion there while it appeared to be justifiable. So I added this comment for a reaction:
thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:Not that there is anything wrong with that if the suspicion is merited
Basicly this is scum bait as I expected scum to react a little stronger than town to an insinuation that there accusation appeared not merited. So that is what I mean about his reaction, asking me if I viewed it as merited or not.
Would town react this way asking 3 times if someone thought there accusations merited or not. They might bring it up perhaps once or state why they thought lord_hur deserved suspicion. Anyways in not having the knowledge of Mr Stoofers alignment at this stage I am ot to sure if his reactions is baffled townie or startled scum. I am leaning on scum but it was only a means used by me to try and get a better read on some one not the key point of a case.
In fear of losing some possible sense of semblance I wil stop there and hit preview.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:41 pm

Post by Guardian »

Mr Stoofer wrote:Also, I want to put the following point on the record:

If we do not lynch thevampireofdussledorf today, we should lynch SlySly.
Why?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:51 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

SlySly wrote:@Mr. Stoofer

How is it a scum tell that lord_hur appeared to have more information about the setup than others? I totally disagree with your statement about this topic in Post 152. In fact, I get the feeling that your statement is a scum tactic trying to get lord_hur to reveal more about his role to your scumminess.

Let me drum up a hypothetical for you...

Let's say lord_hur's role is Bugs Bunny and Bugs Bunny is a power role of the town that has night actions. Wouldn't lord_hur's role give him more information about the setup of the game than some of the other players in the game without lord_hur being scummy for having such role information?

Would he not know that Bugs Bunny existed where the rest of us didn't?

I'm sorry, I don't find having that kind of info as scummy.
I can see you don't agree with the point, but it is a recognised scum tell that Mafia tend to know more about what is going on, and tend to be able to work things out, more easily that the Town.

Click here to read "Rules for Finding Mafia", written by JEEP, whom I think everyone would agree is one of the best Scumhunters that ever lived. He said:
Mafia generally have more information than other players, so whoever picks up on tells/hints easiest is more likely to be mafia (+10%). There are some notable exceptions. Experience and skill should be taken into consideration.
Now of course this not a cast iron rule, no-one suggests that it is. I even said so myself:
Mr Stoofer (emphasis added) wrote:Generally, giving away extra information is a Scum tell, rather than a Power-Role tell (did you look at the wiki link?). That's because Scum are super keen to appear helpful, while Power-Roles tend to want to stay hidden. That is why I normally ascribe extra knowledge of the setup to scum, when it comes out day 1. But you make a fair point --
pro-Town Power-Roles may also be able to work out the setup more easily
.
So by all means disagree with me and JEEP, but what I pointed out was a recognised scum tell.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:51 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

Guardian wrote:
Mr Stoofer wrote:Also, I want to put the following point on the record:

If we do not lynch thevampireofdussledorf today, we should lynch SlySly.
Why?
Are you sure you want me to say this? Really?
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:16 pm

Post by Mr Stoofer »

What I mean, Guardian, is that I don't think that it is a good idea but I will explain if you (and only you) absolutely insist.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:33 am

Post by Musher333 »

thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:Ok I will drop my tow points from further discussion about Mr Stoofer as people find it hard to understand them when I try and explain things.

I dont think Mr Stoofer made any constructive helpful new point in post 30.
I have tried to explain why: If you dont understand too bad.

I belive Mr Stoofers reaction to my comment "if it is merited is" shows some scumminess.
This makes more sense, if you make things short and sweet instead or really long it is often easier to understand, now i understand where you are coming from better i think it is time to
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:50 pm

Post by Guardian »

Stoofer, I don't insist.

unvote; vote: Mr Stoofer

I actually agree with the overburdening. lord_hur seems honest to me. I'm also really not buying tvod suspicion atm, and no one likes my thoughts on cow.. :P
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:18 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

I'm finding myself a little more suspicious of Mr. Stoofer than I originally was. I think perhaps TVoD's odd attacks made him a sympathetic target, but I'm following what SlySly said and I can see some truth in there.

I definitely get the feeling that his arguments now about Jeep's scum tells and his early posts are a bit forced. I think we're beyond the point of getting any value from that discussion and he and TVoD almost feel like they're not part of the same discussion. Unfortunately, I'm not following Guardian at all and his vote against Mr Stoofer is a little troubling. I'll keep in mind that you two could be scum bussing each other.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:53 pm

Post by PyroDwarf »

Stoofer, what are you talking about with guardian? Are you trying to imply that you have more information than the town? I think I read about that somewhere...
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:07 pm

Post by Guardian »

What do you mean that you're not following me? What about? How do you not follow? What do you not follow?
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:39 pm

Post by lord_hur »

Guardian wrote:Stoofer, I don't insist.

unvote; vote: Mr Stoofer
He's talking about this. It is obvious to me that you two know something the others (or me at least) don't know, and are debating whether you should reveal it or not.

It seems it is not something about your alignments, since Guardian voted for Mr Stoofer. I also feel it is not something of great importance, as Mr Stoofer talks quite openly about it.
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