Pikmin Mafia - Game over

[Kison]

Well, thing is that I'd always seen LAL apply more for roleclaiming/claimed night/day actions, rather than false accusations. However, I think that it should hold merit even for smaller things like with what you just did, especially when the explanation for doing so seems pulled out of thin air.

Now that I've answered your question you can answer mine.

Vote : Greasy Spot

- What the hell was with the hasty hammering?

[JDodge]

Is that a yes or a no? I want a plain answer without the fluff.

[Kison]

Umm, yes?

[armlx]

Current thoughts:

Just voting a bunch of people is not a good idea as it allows multiple band wagons simultaneously to grow quickly and potentially end up as "Oops lynch", as opposed to just one. Also probably will divide attention among players who are under the spotlight rather than letting us go case by case.

Jdodge's contradiction yesterday was odd, though I have to look a bit harder to see if it was him being him or him covering his ass.

I've come to realize since yesterday GS is just going to be dumb every game. Just trying to work out which kinds of dumb are scummy for him

I do not like Gorrad's last two posts, just slipping in an opportunistic vote after a (semi-valid) OMGUS. I'm putting Jdodge on being Dodge on the unexplained multivotes for now, though, you know, real cases help too.

The other 3 multivoters (UROE, Kirby, and Kison) all gave enough reasoning for their votes for me to consider them valid and not possibly just abusing the multivoting capacity.

So,

Vote Gorrad

, thinking more tomorrow when I wake up.

[mikeburnfire]

Vote Count!
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch

3 Gorrad (JDodge, UROE, armlx)
3 Sonickid (JDodge, UROE, Gorrad)
3 JDodge (windkirby, Kison, Gorrad)
2 Kison (JDodge, GhostWriter)
2 Shin Hatsubai (skitzer, UROE)
1 Skitzer (JDodge)
1 Greasy Spot (Kison)
Not voting: Xdaamno, Miztef, JamesThePhox, Shin Hatsubai, UltimaAvalon, PyroDwarf, Blazerunner, Greasy Spot, sonickid01

MOD: I'm relatively sure we have multiple votes, but can we unvote?

Yes.

[JDodge]

LAL is an outdated meta if not solely for the purpose that as the meta of the game as a whole has evolved, lying as town in certain situations has become a perfectly acceptable play; numerous traps, gambits, etc. are formed by lies and deceit as a way of covering for gaping holes in mafia-playing skillsets. Mafia are also making conscious efforts to lie as little as possible - this is the main reason why so many people claim townie as scum as opposed to fake-claiming a power role. It's become not worth it for scum to

try

to lie anymore.

Then one must also consider that as the gameplay as a whole has evolved, playstyles have become more diverse; more and more people are falling into their own niche of how to play, and as is such, what is a scumtell for one can be a towntell for another. This makes any universal scumtell or towntell less and less reliable by the day - which makes metagaming your opponents a necessary thing. LAL is one such universal scumtell.

So I must ask you: Do you think that me lying is a towntell for me, a scumtell for me, or a nulltell?

[Greasy Spot]

Vote : Greasy Spot

- What the hell was with the hasty hammering?

I wouldn't call it hasty. The #7 vote was placed in post 136 and the #8 vote was placed in post #160. That's a 24 post difference and 12 of those posts were made be Zombie. He didn't sway me and he obviously didn't sway the other 7 people either.

[Kison]

LAL is an outdated meta if not solely for the purpose that as the meta of the game as a whole has evolved, lying as town in certain situations has become a perfectly acceptable play; numerous traps, gambits, etc. are formed by lies and deceit as a way of covering for gaping holes in mafia-playing skillsets. Mafia are also making conscious efforts to lie as little as possible - this is the main reason why so many people claim townie as scum as opposed to fake-claiming a power role. It's become not worth it for scum to

try

to lie anymore.

Then one must also consider that as the gameplay as a whole has evolved, playstyles have become more diverse; more and more people are falling into their own niche of how to play, and as is such, what is a scumtell for one can be a towntell for another. This makes any universal scumtell or towntell less and less reliable by the day - which makes metagaming your opponents a necessary thing. LAL is one such universal scumtell.

I've never once heard of LAL referred to as an outdated meta. In fact, I've seen it upheld for the most part(unless the liar's name is Albert B. Rampage). But you seem to be suggesting that I look at individual playstyles, and I do agree in part. Could you show me where you have pulled similar stunts as town?

So I must ask you: Do you think that me lying is a towntell for me, a scumtell for me, or a nulltell?

I'm factoring in your explanation rather than just the lie itself(which is why I didn't just vote you right off the bat). Yes, I do find this lie to be scummy.

Vote : Greasy Spot

- What the hell was with the hasty hammering?

I wouldn't call it hasty. The #7 vote was placed in post 136 and the #8 vote was placed in post #160. That's a 24 post difference and 12 of those posts were made be Zombie. He didn't sway me and he obviously didn't sway the other 7 people either.

24 posts isn't that much... The guy hadn't even even roleclaimed. Granted, he was refusing, but we'd not really had much time to talk him into it. You also only made one post after he first started receiving attention, and it was to hammer. You can't possibly tell me you didn't have anything else to add.

[Xdaamno]

Just checking in. I'll post later.

[JDodge]

LAL is an outdated meta if not solely for the purpose that as the meta of the game as a whole has evolved, lying as town in certain situations has become a perfectly acceptable play; numerous traps, gambits, etc. are formed by lies and deceit as a way of covering for gaping holes in mafia-playing skillsets. Mafia are also making conscious efforts to lie as little as possible - this is the main reason why so many people claim townie as scum as opposed to fake-claiming a power role. It's become not worth it for scum to

try

to lie anymore.

Then one must also consider that as the gameplay as a whole has evolved, playstyles have become more diverse; more and more people are falling into their own niche of how to play, and as is such, what is a scumtell for one can be a towntell for another. This makes any universal scumtell or towntell less and less reliable by the day - which makes metagaming your opponents a necessary thing. LAL is one such universal scumtell.

I've never once heard of LAL referred to as an outdated meta. In fact, I've seen it upheld for the most part(unless the liar's name is Albert B. Rampage). But you seem to be suggesting that I look at individual playstyles, and I do agree in part. Could you show me where you have pulled similar stunts as town?

It's up to you to prove your accusation to hold true - where can you say that I would not do this as town? And LAL is an outdated meta. And how often does it work when you see it upheld, anyways? That is an important (and missing) distinction here. "I've seen it upheld" =/= "it works", not to mention said ABR example

proves

its outdatedness quite thoroughly.

So I must ask you: Do you think that me lying is a towntell for me, a scumtell for me, or a nulltell?

I'm factoring in your explanation rather than just the lie itself(which is why I didn't just vote you right off the bat). Yes, I do find this lie to be scummy.

Pourquoi?

[Greasy Spot]

24 posts isn't that much... The guy hadn't even even roleclaimed. Granted, he was refusing, ...

It is when 12 of them were his.

[windkirby]

Mikeburnfire, I'm also voting for JDodge right now.

That's why it's in the vote count.

BTW, I'm a little confused... can someone explain what LAL is and what it has to do with JDodge refusing to explain his vote on Gorrad as promised?

[Blazerunner]

I am a little lost on JDodge x Kisoin... I dont have time to re-read, could someone please quote me to JDodge's lie day one?

windkirby, LAL = Lynch All Liars

@GreasySpot: I think it was hasty, 24 posts isnt that much specially on a 20 player game, and specially because 12 of the posts were Zombie's. Means at least 7 people didnt have time (or didnt want) to make arguments on him after L -1... I really think it wasnt good that you lynched him...

[armlx]

LAL = Lynch All Liars. It has nothing to do with the Gorrad vote, but more to do with an argument Jdodge made where he lied about his reasons for it yesterday. This doesn't seem like an appropriate instance to apply it anyways, so its pretty irrel.

[Kison]

24 posts isn't that much... The guy hadn't even even roleclaimed. Granted, he was refusing, ...

It is when 12 of them were his.

Uh, no, it's really not. He should have been pressed harder to roleclaim. You kind of squashed potentially saving a power role without even participating in the discussion revolving around him.

It's up to you to prove your accusation to hold true - where can you say that I would not do this as town?

What is my accusation? That you lied to cast me in a bad image as you placed your vote, and gave a cruddy justification for doing so.

Proving said accusation : I've already proven you lied. The latter part is a matter of perception.

Lastly, you seem to think because you lied that I am sold on you being scum. That's not the case. You also did not answer my question.

]And LAL is an outdated meta. And how often does it work when you see it upheld, anyways? That is an important (and missing) distinction here. "I've seen it upheld" =/= "it works", not to mention said ABR example proves its outdatedness quite thoroughly.

The ABR example proves that lying does not guarantee scum, which LAL does not

guarantee

as a meta.

So I must ask you: Do you think that me lying is a towntell for me, a scumtell for me, or a nulltell?

I'm factoring in your explanation rather than just the lie itself(which is why I didn't just vote you right off the bat). Yes, I do find this lie to be scummy.

Pourquoi?

I've already explained why I think it's scummy on day one. You can go back and reread if you want the answer.

[JDodge]

It's up to you to prove your accusation to hold true - where can you say that I would not do this as town?

What is my accusation? That you lied to cast me in a bad image as you placed your vote, and gave a cruddy justification for doing so.

Proving said accusation : I've already proven you lied. The latter part is a matter of perception.

Lastly, you seem to think because you lied that I am sold on you being scum. That's not the case. You also did not answer my question.

Yet you want me to disprove your own perception of events? I'm sorry, but again, it's not up to me to provide proof that your

perception

is wrong until you give a reason as to why it is

right

.

]And LAL is an outdated meta. And how often does it work when you see it upheld, anyways? That is an important (and missing) distinction here. "I've seen it upheld" =/= "it works", not to mention said ABR example proves its outdatedness quite thoroughly.

The ABR example proves that lying does not guarantee scum, which LAL does not

guarantee

as a meta.

No, any meta such as Lynch All _____ is generally designed to say that whomever performs said action is scum. Otherwise it is outdated and useless.

So I must ask you: Do you think that me lying is a towntell for me, a scumtell for me, or a nulltell?

I'm factoring in your explanation rather than just the lie itself(which is why I didn't just vote you right off the bat). Yes, I do find this lie to be scummy.

Pourquoi?

I've already explained why I think it's scummy on day one. You can go back and reread if you want the answer.

You can go ahead and post it again, too. In different words please.

[Kison]

Yet you want me to disprove your own perception of events? I'm sorry, but again, it's not up to me to provide proof that your perception is wrong until you give a reason as to why it is right.

I never said it was right. That's why it's a

perception

. It's nothing I can prove is right or wrong, but rather is my take on it. I could be wrong, sure. Yet, since I already view the surrounding circumstances by which you went about lying as scummy(which you obviously disagree with), I'm asking if you have done such elsewhere so I can take that into consideration. So, if you're not going to, then I'm not going to sit here and sulk about it.

No, any meta such as Lynch All _____ is generally designed to say that whomever performs said action is scum. Otherwise it is outdated and useless.

It's designed to say that scum is guilty of an action more often than town. Therefore, anyone caught doing this should be lynched. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be scum, obviously, since that ignores surrounding circumstances.

...And neither am I, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove anymore.

[JDodge]

Yet you want me to disprove your own perception of events? I'm sorry, but again, it's not up to me to provide proof that your perception is wrong until you give a reason as to why it is right.

I never said it was right. That's why it's a

perception

. It's nothing I can prove is right or wrong, but rather is my take on it. I could be wrong, sure. Yet, since I already view the surrounding circumstances by which you went about lying as scummy(which you obviously disagree with), I'm asking if you have done such elsewhere so I can take that into consideration. So, if you're not going to, then I'm not going to sit here and sulk about it.

I cannot disprove your take on something.

You are asking me to essentially change your entire mindset about the entire situation - which is far too nebulous a task.

No, any meta such as Lynch All _____ is generally designed to say that whomever performs said action is scum. Otherwise it is outdated and useless.

It's designed to say that scum is guilty of an action more often than town. Therefore, anyone caught doing this should be lynched. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to be scum, obviously, since that ignores surrounding circumstances.

...And neither am I, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove anymore.

Therefore LAL is a poor and outdated metastrategy; it would not be were it lynch

certain

liars for

certain

lies. I dislike the use of "he's lying" as an argument; I much prefer "he's lying which is anti-town in this circumstance because of X, Y, Z".

[Kison]

I cannot disprove your take on something. You are asking me to essentially change your entire mindset about the entire situation - which is far too nebulous a task.

You can change my perception of something through argument/presenting your own perspective, which you haven't been recently. Beyond that I don't really expect much else from you.

Therefore LAL is a poor and outdated metastrategy; it would not be were it lynch certain liars for certain lies. I dislike the use of "he's lying" as an argument; I much prefer "he's lying which is anti-town in this circumstance because of X, Y, Z".

/agree

[Xdaamno]

Clue me in here; what has JDodge 'lied' about?

[JDodge]

Then I believe we have reached an impasse.

Clue me in here; what has JDodge 'lied' about?

Read the damn thread.

[Xdaamno]

Then I believe we have reached an impasse.

Clue me in here; what has JDodge 'lied' about?

Read the damn thread.

Uhm... apologies that I only had a minute or so to post at the time? I'll read it tommorow, since I'm still busy.

[PyroDwarf]

Hmm, I am a little disappointed. I wasn't able to post between my last post and when zombie was killed. He had me off his wagon for the most part. I would have been more comfortable with a

Vote: ShinHatsubi

lynch.
I don't like LAL, because a lot of liars turn out to be town, trying to catch scum in some weak gambit. But, I'll

Vote:Jdodge

Because of teapots and razors. yay multi votes!

[JDodge]

Unvote: skitzer, vote: Xdaamno

Asking about something without knowing the context of it.

[Xdaamno]

Unvote: skitzer, vote: Xdaamno

Asking about something without knowing the context of it.

If it was about anyone else but you, you probably wouldn't be voting me now (foresight bladeblah).

I wanted to post

something

, so I thought it would be a decent idea to have a setence or two about the events from their perspective.

If you think I'm scummy just for that, you're a terrible scumhunter (Which I'm pretty sure you're not), or scum yourself, so IGMEOY.