Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

1) You never

said

were building a case, but you implied that you were working on something on posts 118 and 137. I guess I was kind of hoping you were making a case, because that's exactly what I want you to do, and that's exactly what you should do.
Anyway, when I wrote that I was being hopeful, not "making it up." Because according to post 118 and 137, you are definitely working on

something

(or you're lying and sitting back, like Amor noticed)

2) You said that amor "want[ed] people to believe I am "sitting back"..please describe exactly what you are doing." Amor doesn't

want

people to believe something. The way you phrase it makes it seems like he is brainwashing us into believing this lie. The thing is, he made a valid point, and he doesn't have to "want people to believe," because I'm sure people all on their own will believe that you are "sitting back."

3) Remember that I asked you for advice on how to make my posts more clear. Please help me improve my game. ( I know it's hard to believe but I'm actually asking this without any irony or sarcasm. If my posts aren't clear, that's not good.)

Official Vote Count

Occult - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (Amor)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)

Not Voting - 6 (backinblack167, cerebus3, curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Occult, Radio_Interference)

5 to Lynch

[Amor]

Amor, I am not just sitting back, trust me, if I had to push a case today...where did I say I was just sitting back? Would you rather I push a case for a lynch right now, without having all the facts and conversation needed to do so properly? How is that pro town?

Amor, you want people to believe I am "sitting back"..please describe exactly what you are doing.

I was referring to comments like this during the exchange between BAB and I.

still waiting to see how a couple things pan out.

Reading the BAB and Amor exchange with much interested.

(I get the feeling there was something else, but the post I was thinking of has been strangely emptied.)

You don't come out and say it, but I got the impression that you were waiting to see how things turned out between BAB and me before offering an opinion. This strikes me as being a tad scummy, as it doesn't help the town. You don't have to make a case, but you shouldn't just be going "Hmm, interesting" either.

JimSauce said something along these lines as well:

I'll wait until it pans out and point out any lapses in logic.

It's not a major point, but I thought it was worth noting. As for what I'm doing now, I'm not really taking sides, but I (like to think I'm) posting content at least. Since I should probably include my opinions on this dispute after that remark, here goes:

Both of you are looking sort of scummy in this exchange. It's true that CKD seems to be making blanket statements and spinning words; cerebus and BAB have pointed out some decent examples of this. Also, if you do think BAB is the VI and we shouldn't lynch him right away, why do you keep presenting evidence for him as scum?

At the same time, BAB has been ignoring a lot of what CKD is saying and said some suspicious things about the argument:

Again, I'm getting you to react, I know you're probably not building a case against me (since it'd be OMGUS). I'm going to publicly tell you my intentions. I'm trying to get you to slip, and eventually you will mess up.
Then you will be lynched. That's how it'll go.

Oh, you're falling into my trap by the way. As you said in post 190, and I'll paraphrase for you, that lynching a VI is a scummy move. Building a case against me will get me lynched. You are scum, and with every post I grow more and more certain.

I don't need more evidence to convince myself, I only need more evidence to convince the rest of this town. So, please, PLEASE, respond to me.

In the words of fightclub: I want you to hit me as hard as you can. I dare you.

WTF? Posting with the express intent of trying to make someone respond emotionally isn't a particularly good tactic in my eyes, nor is admitting it. Laying a "trap" means that you're already convinced a player is scum and setting up a way that a normal reaction would make them seem scummy. (At least that's the idea, as I understand.) It's nothing more than playing with words, and doesn't prove that someone's scum. BAB mentioned trying to do a similar thing with catching RI in a lie earlier, which really made no sense.

In this case you seem to be saying that you've "trapped" CKD because he can't make a case against you without appearing scummy. This really only seems like something scum would celebrate.

Also,

Yeah so you get a vote, and I'm going to vote for you until you're lynched (or you miraculously change my mind.)
vote: curiouskarmadog

CKD went from "not scummy enough to merit a vote" to "I know he's scum and I won't take my vote off him" awfully fast, didn't he? And I don't think you should be so inflexible with your vote. What if someone else does something scummier? What if nobody agrees with you and your vote sits there uselessly? Does this extend to future days?

So, both have posted some suspicious things. At the same time, it doesn't strike me as a scumpair arguing to try and deflect suspicion. I think if that were the case it would be less recursive and cryptic, and the votes would have come out sooner. So I think one of them is scum (I'm leaning towards BAB) and the other is just making poor arguments.

As a caveat, I may have misunderstood some things because hey, giant walls of text.

[cerebus3]

@CKD: Alright, I can see that. I retract my FOS

@Amor: What do you think of my suggestion with Bab?

[backinblack167]

This is the same point CKD has been making for a while. I've replied to him numerous times that I am trying to be as involved as possible in this game. "I have a habit of under-estimating myself," especially in my involvement in things (163).

That's fine, and I can understand if you're simply underestimating your activity. It just came off to me as if you didn't really want to draw attention to yourself or have attention drawn to you.

I would like to mention that you didn't discount the boggzie/Occult scumpair. This is defending Boggzie (who is CKD)

I didn't specifically mention it, but the Occult/BaB connection was the only one that RI said "I can't see both of them being scum" about. All of these connections could definitely be possibilities for scumpairs. I only mentioned the one in my post because of what RI said.

Where the %*#@ was that in the post. Seems like you are, as CKD would say, "spinning."
Yeah where was I trying to deflect attention, and where am I trying to avoid connections. That's just a lie. Maybe that's why you said that LAL wasn't appropriate. Because you lie? rato.

That comment wasn't based on the quoted section, but point 5 in post 120. As I stated before, your comments about not being as involved as CKD says you have come off to me as though you didn't want to be noted as being involved.

Woh woh woh! Don't use quotation marks if you're not directly quoting someone, please. That was a paraphrase.

It was a typo. I meant to put a closing set of quotation marks around pattern.

I'm sure CKD agrees with you. You're both wrong, though.

Just the feeling I got from them. Although at this point it seems like you're really trying to connect me with CKD.

How is my involvement in this game? Too much, just right, or not enough?

I think you're fine. You've definitely generated discussion and have done a good job driving the game.

Side comment? did you miss post 121? In that post RI shows that Amor isn't doing anything in reality. He would say something and then take it back, which is really just lurking verbosely. Not only that, but he was beginning to get some pressure from players other than just RI. If Amor did not do anything, I feel that he would seem more scummy for continuing to do nothing. Besides, if he continued the way he was, it would be much more difficult to get a read on him.

It's definitely careful posting to the extreme, but I think that saying that he wasn't doing anything and was "lurking verbosely" is an unfair judgment. The highlighted posts do include some other opinions offered by him outside of the supposedly contradictory sections. I don't really see anything wrong with posting potential explanations for the issues you bring up, although the points he directly contradicts or takes back in the next sentence are indeed strange.

I don't see deciding to take action as scummy, what I thought was curious was a seemingly gigantic change in his thoughts on others, BaB in particular, (he had expressed some doubts about him in the past but not to the degree in that post) as well as the posting style change. Really, it's just a matter of the timing that makes it look suspicious to me. If the change had occurred at another time, I would have thought nothing of it. However, since it happened as seemingly a direct response to feeling pressure, it piqued my curiosity.

this upcoming section might be kind of disorganized, sorry

As for the whole VI thing: I'm not following, really. I get the VI concept but I don't really see how BaB is embodying it. The argument about lynching the VI looks like a misunderstanding to me.

Amor, I am not just sitting back, trust me, if I had to push a case today...where did I say I was just sitting back? Would you rather I push a case for a lynch right now, without having all the facts and conversation needed to do so properly? How is that pro town?

Waiting for others is a form of sitting back.

My post was meant to goad you into slipping up. It was a post to get a reaction

So there was no contradiction?

I think that you basically cancelled out your examples by saying they might not be scum tells. I also think you ruined the chance for us to
paraphrase quote: 'know where you are coming from for my re-reads and future reads"

But if we know what he considers a scum tell, we DO have the chance to know where he's coming from.

And honestly, the two of you need to stop accusing each other of spinning about essentially every single thing you say. If every argument or point is met with "you're spinning", this doesn't really help us.

@195: To be fair, he doesn't necessarily say that he's building a case against you.

Again, I'm getting you to react, I know you're probably not building a case against me (since it'd be OMGUS). I'm going to publicly tell you my intentions. I'm trying to get you to slip, and eventually you will mess up.
Then you will be lynched. That's how it'll go.

First the contradiction, and now this? If you really think he's scum, point it out, but don't just come up with things and hope that he'll slip.

Whew. I wonder what everyone thinks of this. Probably they'll say I'm attacking you to strongly.

I wouldn't say that, but instead of fishing for reactions and hoping he'll slip, I'd much rather see something more concrete.[/quote]

[Radio_Interference]

Kzzzzzrrrotttttt.....

..n other words, your admitting that the quest for oil was a liber...

[Obvious]

Looks like we have a nice little barfight going on between CKD and BaB now dont we?

[Apology]

I've been busy for the last day, and I will be moreso for the weekend, so I really don't know how much I'll be posting. And the next section is going to be full of fragment ideas! yay!

[Overview]

Just to paraphrase some of the things that popped out in my mind that havent been mentioned a whole lot yet, I was suprised by how strongly CKD reacted to BaB's posts against him. I also didn't think he'd use short posts to reply. I didn't predict much emotion at all, and certainly not enough to incite any kind of anger/frustration to show through in his posts. I also don't like the uses that I see of the words "everyone" and statements like "the whole town" being used in, as you can't possibly know if everyone has the same opinion as you and you sure as hell shouldnt assume it. If someone brings it up, I'll go back and find the quotes for the uses of those, though I dont know how many other people will care. I think the term VI is being used only because eveyone created such a big deal over BaB acting "newby" and waving his newb flag around that they just didnt want to call him a newb because it'd agree with his recent posts about himself, so they made up something else so they'd seem more neutral towards him, but to be honest that could just be because although I think BaB's posting jumps around in the levels of emotion he puts into what he says, I don't find it preticularly difficult to decifer what the meaning is.

[Statement]

But, thats all just the random small things that pop out. Hopefully I'll have more to comment about/on when I get more time and can read through again with watever new responses come out. Have a nice weekend everyone!

*Transmission Out*

[cerebus3]

Kzzzzzrrrotttttt.....

..n other words, your admitting that the quest for oil was a liber...

[Obvious]

Looks like we have a nice little barfight going on between CKD and BaB now dont we?

[Apology]

I've been busy for the last day, and I will be moreso for the weekend, so I really don't know how much I'll be posting. And the next section is going to be full of fragment ideas! yay!

[Overview]

Just to paraphrase some of the things that popped out in my mind that havent been mentioned a whole lot yet, I was suprised by how strongly CKD reacted to BaB's posts against him. I also didn't think he'd use short posts to reply. I didn't predict much emotion at all, and certainly not enough to incite any kind of anger/frustration to show through in his posts. I also don't like the uses that I see of the words "everyone" and statements like "the whole town" being used in, as you can't possibly know if everyone has the same opinion as you and you sure as hell shouldnt assume it. If someone brings it up, I'll go back and find the quotes for the uses of those, though I dont know how many other people will care. I think the term VI is being used only because eveyone created such a big deal over BaB acting "newby" and waving his newb flag around that they just didnt want to call him a newb because it'd agree with his recent posts about himself, so they made up something else so they'd seem more neutral towards him, but to be honest that could just be because although I think BaB's posting jumps around in the levels of emotion he puts into what he says, I don't find it preticularly difficult to decifer what the meaning is.

[Statement]

But, thats all just the random small things that pop out. Hopefully I'll have more to comment about/on when I get more time and can read through again with watever new responses come out. Have a nice weekend everyone!

*Transmission Out*

Answer me this question then, has Bab helped the town with his actions? You might not have any problem understanding him, be he is mighty inconsistent and annoying to the town. Most of the posts I have seen since he replaced into the game have been in response to his odd behavior. He replaced into the game on page three I have seen very little progress in the time since then. A little scum hunting on Boggzie and a little on Amor, but the rest has, for the most part, been centered on Bab. If Bab's intention was to distract the town, he has succeeded at that endevor in spades. What I want people to do is examine the posts of players other than Bab, because I don't see people doing it much. Even after I stated this, Bab makes like 3 posts and the other people who are active just spend their time responding to these posts. What progress is being made here?

[cerebus3]

It's definitely careful posting to the extreme, but I think that saying that he wasn't doing anything and was "lurking verbosely" is an unfair judgment. The highlighted posts do include some other opinions offered by him outside of the supposedly contradictory sections. I don't really see anything wrong with posting potential explanations for the issues you bring up, although the points he directly contradicts or takes back in the next sentence are indeed strange.

I don't see deciding to take action as scummy, what I thought was curious was a seemingly gigantic change in his thoughts on others, BaB in particular, (he had expressed some doubts about him in the past but not to the degree in that post) as well as the posting style change. Really, it's just a matter of the timing that makes it look suspicious to me. If the change had occurred at another time, I would have thought nothing of it. However, since it happened as seemingly a direct response to feeling pressure, it piqued my curiosity.

"Lurking Verbosely" might be an exaggeration, but the point is that the pressure on Amor was not insignificant, and he had to do something, and I didn't like how you downplay that. That said, I do agree with you about him seeming to do this to relieve pressure.

As for the whole VI thing: I'm not following, really. I get the VI concept but I don't really see how BaB is embodying it.

If I took the time and actually went through Bab's posts and pointed out each inconsistancy, each scummy argument, and each post that demonstrated a lack of understanding of a concept, it would probably take me hours. As CKD said "I cant imagine scum would be so obvious." And this is the fundamental problem. Lets face it, Bab has been acting scummy, and why don't we lynch him because if this? Because we don't know if he just doesn't realize he is being scummy. This is a textbook example of a VI.

I would like to hear what JS, WLC, and Occult have to say on this.

[curiouskarmadog]

RI, the reason the posts are short is because I dont have much time to post in this thread right now. I am fustrated with BAB because a.) he is clearly tunnel visioning on me taking things out of context, not reading what I write, and making giant leaps of logic or assumption, b.) his posts are/were hard to follow and when I ask him to clarify he attacks me or he attacks me if he thinks I am not understanding something he said on purpose c.) I have other games, and I need to address his two monster posts, but dont have the time at the moment, d.) it seems like everything I post, BAB "spins" to mean something I didnt even say or implies a motive that is clearly not there, it is fustrating when someone says you say something you didnt or you are doing something you are not, and not have time (hours) to reply because the posts are huge and you want to make you sure you get evrything in.

hopefully I will be able to do this by Monday.

[JimSauce]

I wouldn't say that, but instead of fishing for reactions and hoping he'll slip, I'd much rather see something more concrete.

QFT

You don't come out and say it, but I got the impression that you were waiting to see how things turned out between BAB and me before offering an opinion. This strikes me as being a tad scummy, as it doesn't help the town. You don't have to make a case, but you shouldn't just be going "Hmm, interesting" either.

JimSauce said something along these lines as well:

I'll wait until it pans out and point out any lapses in logic.

I clearly sided with BaB in the same post you quoted; I find it odd that you managed to miss that

---

Also, if you do think BAB is the VI and we shouldn't lynch him right away, why do you keep presenting evidence for him as scum?

also, if you read (and not paraphrase) I said you were either a VI OR SCUM...

---

Pro-town means to do something to help advance the cause of the town. Intimidation, bad logic, and lousy scum hunting do not advance to cause of the town, and thus are not pro-town. The only way such things help the town is when scum implicate themselves by acting in this way.

This argument comes down to a matter of opinion. In my opinion, his actual defense

was

pro-town. True, he used bad logic and intimidation, but he still defended himself... Actually, scratch this part. Reading through, I feel his defense against my FoS was unneeded, and probably diverted our attention from more important discussions, i.e. BaB's case against Occult, which was unfortunately brought up again in detail three pages later. Not to mention it eventually led to his replacement. I take back what I said about Boggzie's defense. On the other hand, his scum-hunting was lousy and didn't accomplish much, but he still scum-hunted.

This

opinion on Boggzie's actions has never changed.

---

#187: I disagree with both suggestions. I disagree that we should just lynch him because of the reasons given in that post. I disagree that we should just move on because BaB has been making scummy actions recently, actions that can't just be excused as newb-ness or an evolving sense of the game, or VI-ness. I would have agreed to move on from BaB before he started accusing CKD. (I don't think BaB is intentionally being a VI, though at this point I'm beginning to question and accept the theory.)

---

Some actions that I find scummy;

BridgesandBaloons

-BaB lies to get a reaction from CKD (where BaB said CKD had been contradicting himself). Pulling accusations out of nowhere only makes yourself look scummier, even if you decide to retract it when called out. By the way, how did you expect CKD to react to that comment? What, in your opinion, would have been a scummy reaction? What would have been a pro-town reaction?

-Some of his vehement attacks on CKD that revolve around one accusation (that CKD is waiting to make a case on BaB). IMO this is a clear example of spinning, though BaB explained himself in #200.

-Recently, BaB seems to take many things CKD says and spin it to make him look scummy. The post that triggered this comment was #200, second paragraph. Oh, how unwarranted I felt that was. First of all, if Amor points out something he thinks is scummy, he obviously wants the other players to support him. Mentioning this isn't putting words in Amor's mouth, like you aggressively claim CKD was doing. Second, Amor's comment wasn't directed at you, and it comes off as you intentionally throwing everything you can at CKD to get him to argue with you. I may be wrong or biased here, but that's how I see it.

-His absolute certainty and several small, immature comments about CKD, e.g.

"Or rather, you can kill me in the night because you are scum."

This is just trying to discredit him.

curiouskarmadog

-The obnoxiousness of many of his comments. I'm surprised at how he is handling the issue.

-He speaks as if the entire town thinks the same way about BaB. It's not "common knowledge that [BaB's] posts are hard to follow." He has a rather messy post occasionally, but calling this common knowledge as if BaB is some unorganized primate seems like you're trying to discredit him.

-A while ago when he accused BaB of downplaying his involvement in the game. I felt the whole argument was reaching on his part.

---

Both players look scummy in this dispute, and both have spun statements, but I'm leaning more towards BaB's guiltiness.

[Occult]

Amor

- Replaces Pheal who only had a random vote. Has been pretty active and has drilled the fact that he beleives BnB is Scum. If fact, BnB is the only person he's really been on.

BackInB

- I found Black's posts interesting he's been sitting back making sure not to take any strong sides. What I found interesting is that he only mentions amor through other people's post and has only directly mentioned him directly with his player by Player analysis. Currently voting noone.

BnB

- He comes out swinging like a mother fucker and then backs down after finding out that defending is a part of the game (as a note, I played similarly in my first game, which was why I had said I felt good about him). But since that post he has consistently used the I'm a newbie excuse, has been very-aggressive and occasionally contradictory. Has been very wild in his attacks, and has been playing in tunnel vision the entire game. Picks small, unimportant things to attack people on. And (after this reread) has posted long posts that end up with little actual content. Voting CKD and is very eager to lynch someone (which is one of his scumtells)

Cerebus

replaces Pre (who did the first scummy thing in the game). C3 comes out fairly aggressive in his attempt to get the game sorted out. Has generated plenty of discussion, and asks alot of questions. His suspicions are pretty spread out among everyone.

CDK

- Replaces the Ever-wonderful Boggzie. Bog was scummy as all hell, he came off throwing suspicion in all directions but saying absolutely nothing. CDK asks alot of questions, posts frequently and makes headway for town. But it doesn't erase the fact that he replaced Bogs, his play could be purely damage control. He's also conservative with throwing his vote around. Isn't a big BnB fan.

JimSauce

- His posting is very straight forward, doesn't like BnB and Amor. He seems to be backing out of any serious confrontation.

RI

Another straight forward poster. Has posted calmly and has (for the most part) been ignored. He's very good at keeping himself at the back of people's minds which makes me believe he should be watched very carefully.

WLC

Another one that stays in the background. Posts are quick (with the exception of one) and unconfrontational. Likes to keep tensions away from him and stay near the back of the room.


IMO, BnB or Amor seem like the best lynch choices today. They are the ones that stand out the most in scummy behavior paterns. Also if one of them turns up as scum I severly doubt that the other is his partner (its not out of the realm of possibility tho.)

I'd also keep a close eye on WLC and Black.

[Occult]

Also,
(My internet access is going to be fairly limited for the next couple of weeks)

[Amor]

@Amor: What do you think of my suggestion with Bab?

I can certainly see where you're coming from with the VI idea. But I still think that BAB is a pretty safe lynch. Even if he's not scum, we won't be missing a lot. My worry here is that if we let him live, then we'll spend the next couple of days just debating BAB again and being distracted from potential other scum.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

1) To everyone: It turns out I don't have enough evidence yet to back up my opinions, and many of you believe that I am distracting the town, changing my opinions constantly, and acting horribly inconsistent. I have been alternating between different styles of play because I'm trying to figure out how I play best. I've been using this game as a learning opportunity, and I'm sorry if it has lowered our chances of winning. Cerb especially seems to think that I'm not mafia, but that I am not helping this town at all. If the general consensus is that I can help the town best by hanging in the background, I will do so. I know that this isn't an individual game, it's a group game, and I've been trying to help the majority with everything I do, but if I'm actually not helping (if the rest agree with Cerb) then I'll quiet down.
Let me know if I should do this, but I'm going to write this post first.

2)Amor (201): I'm not sure what you mean when you say I have been
"ignoring a lot of what CKD is saying." I missed only one of his posts, and then I wrote a change. This was a couple of

pages

ago.
To everyone: There was no contradiction that CKD made. I was mixing him up with someone else, and that contradiction got resolved.

3)Bib (203): I got much more pro-town feelings about you with this post. He made some good observations. Again I'm going to ask you: how often you think you can post in this game? Here you defended both me and CKD, which was interesting.

I wouldn't say that, but instead of fishing for reactions and hoping he'll slip, I'd much rather see something more concrete.

[/quote]

I hoping that his reactions will provide me with more concrete evidence. I agree that what I was doing was interesting, but I was trying to get a reaction, which I definitely did. I think my tactics were odd, but I've unearthed more scumminess in CKD.

4)

If I took the time and actually went through Bab's posts and pointed out each inconsistency, each scummy argument, and each post that demonstrated a lack of understanding of a concept, it would probably take me hours.

If you could take time later (maybe after the game) to discuss posts that "demonstrate a lack of understanding of a concept" I would

really

appreciate it.

5)

-BaB lies to get a reaction from CKD (where BaB said CKD had been contradicting himself).

Yeah Like I mention in this post right here, I made a mistake about the contradiction. I didn't say something earlier because it is all part of my plan to get CKD to react.
I said that he was "falling into my trap" and that (paraphrased) "I wouldn't take my vote off of him" and that "I have a huge case against you" is all my attempt to get him to feel very attacked. This would produce one of two reactions, one townie, the other not. (Explained further down this post)

Also about him responding to Amor, I felt that he was putting words in his mouth, and I didn't like it. I guess this is where I might be "spinning," however, I think CKD has spun much more.

By the way, how did you expect CKD to react to that comment? What, in your opinion, would have been a scummy reaction? What would have been a pro-town reaction?

All of the rest of my post is based on this:
A) A pro town player, who knows he is pro-town is confidant that the arguments against him/her are wrong (since he is indeed town), and can and will calmly defend them. He/she will seem much more certain (since what they are saying is the truth, they are actually town.)

On the other hand,

B) A mafia member, who knows that he is mafiia is less confidant that the arguments against him/her are wrong (since he/she is indeed mafia), and will be very nervous when attacked. He/she will seem much more frantic (since if they die, they will probably* lose, but if a townie dies, she/he can still win). The mafia member will

grow emotional

since the game is on the line, and they will probably resort to

attacking their original attacker

rather than calmly defending themselves. Under the pressure they will

change their style of posting

(because they are scared).

I'm now going to show how CKD has been reacting completely in accordance to B) mafia.

I don't see deciding to take action as scummy, what I thought was curious was a seemingly

gigantic change in his thoughts on others, BaB in particular,

(he had expressed some doubts about him in the past but not to the degree in that post) as well as

the posting style change.

Really, it's just a matter of the timing that makes it look suspicious to me. If the change had occurred at another time, I would have thought nothing of it. However, since it happened as seemingly a direct response to feeling pressure, it piqued my curiosity.

change their style of posting

and

attacking their original attacker

I was surprised by how strongly CKD reacted to BaB's posts against him. I also didn't think he'd use

short posts

to reply.

I didn't predict much emotion at all, and certainly not enough to incite any kind of anger/frustration to show through in his posts. GROW EMOTIONAL

GROW EMOTIONAL

CKD claims to be getting frustrated because I'm saying things that he didn't do, but I think it's an excuse. I only made a mistake about the contradiction, and he did the same to me, and I remained calm.

-

The obnoxiousness of many of his comments. I'm surprised at how he is handling the issue.

-He speaks as if the entire town thinks the same way about BaB. It's not "common knowledge that [BaB's] posts are hard to follow." He has a rather messy post occasionally, but calling this common knowledge as if BaB is some unorganized primate seems like

you're trying to discredit him.

attacking their original attacker

and

grow emotional

I don't want to display tunnel vision and say everything he does is scummy, because that's not true. He *may* be reacting in anger and not as a mafia. I seriously doubt this, because he is an IC and should be used to getting attacked.

To sum this entire post up:
I think CKD is scum, and if it will benefit the town, I will slide into the background and not write about CKD for a while.

[WeyounsLastClone]

I really do find it commendable that BaB posts a lot. To me he makes sense, most of the time, but I can't escape the feeling that he has played the newbie card to often, whereas on other fronts coming across more experienced. I don't know if it's real scumminess, or a townie who doesn't know exactly what to do.

RI still seems really honest to me, and seriously trying to help town.

Occult, after a debatable start (at least, in my interpretation), I've grown more to think of as town, but I'm still not sure about.

JimSauce. Sometimes he's asking good question, trying to help town, and at other times I think he's a bit cautious somehow.

ckd and Amor, I'd like to analyze the last pages some more. I don't really know what to think right now, especially with the interaction with BaB.

Sorry for my lack of input, but I hope to have some more time this week to read and analyze.

[cerebus3]

Just stopping in real quick, I will probably say something later, just wanted to point this out:

Also, if you do think BAB is the VI and we shouldn't lynch him right away, why do you keep presenting evidence for him as scum?

also, if you read (and not paraphrase) I said you were either a VI OR SCUM...

Misquote. I didn't write that, Amor did.

[cerebus3]

This argument comes down to a matter of opinion. In my opinion, his actual defense was pro-town. True, he used bad logic and intimidation, but he still defended himself... Actually, scratch this part. Reading through, I feel his defense against my FoS was unneeded, and probably diverted our attention from more important discussions, i.e. BaB's case against Occult, which was unfortunately brought up again in detail three pages later. Not to mention it eventually led to his replacement. I take back what I said about Boggzie's defense. On the other hand, his scum-hunting was lousy and didn't accomplish much, but he still scum-hunted. This opinion on Boggzie's actions has never changed.

I could probably debate this further, but I don't think it is worth it. How scummy does boggzie's actions net then? How scummy is he/CKD taking into account all of their actions to this point?

Both players look scummy in this dispute, and both have spun statements, but I'm leaning more towards BaB's guiltiness.

Is it possible that both are scum?

@Occult: is Amor's tunnel visioning on Bab the only thing you think is scummy? If so, why do you think that is enough for a lynch? Do you think a CKD/Bab pairing isn't feasible either?

@CKD: What do you think of Amor suggesting something that you expressly stated was a scummy thing to do? (that we should lynch Bab regardless.)

[backinblack167]

Again I'm going to ask you: how often you think you can post in this game?

I'm trying to squeeze in posts where I can; lately I've more going on than usual. Hopefully I'll have more time in the next few days.

Also, BaB: Later in your post (212) you quoted me:

I don't see deciding to take action as scummy, what I thought was curious was a seemingly gigantic change in his thoughts on others, BaB in particular, (he had expressed some doubts about him in the past but not to the degree in that post) as well as the posting style change. Really, it's just a matter of the timing that makes it look suspicious to me. If the change had occurred at another time, I would have thought nothing of it. However, since it happened as seemingly a direct response to feeling pressure, it piqued my curiosity.

That portion of my post was actually describing Amor.

"Lurking Verbosely" might be an exaggeration, but the point is that the pressure on Amor was not insignificant, and he had to do something, and I didn't like how you downplay that. That said, I do agree with you about him seeming to do this to relieve pressure.

At the time, he was only really getting heat from BaB and RI. RI himself admitted that his reasoning for suspicion was weak. I personally wouldn't call that major pressure, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. The fact is, he did change his style, whether the pressure he was receiving was a significant amount or not.

If I took the time and actually went through Bab's posts and pointed out each inconsistancy, each scummy argument, and each post that demonstrated a lack of understanding of a concept, it would probably take me hours. As CKD said "I cant imagine scum would be so obvious." And this is the fundamental problem. Lets face it, Bab has been acting scummy, and why don't we lynch him because if this? Because we don't know if he just doesn't realize he is being scummy. This is a textbook example of a VI.

Okay. I guess I can see how he fits with being a VI.

I can certainly see where you're coming from with the VI idea. But I still think that BAB is a pretty safe lynch. Even if he's not scum, we won't be missing a lot. My worry here is that if we let him live, then we'll spend the next couple of days just debating BAB again and being distracted from potential other scum.

This post kind of strikes me as suspicious. As far as I'm aware, it's the first person to think that a BaB lynch due to the VI topic is a good idea. It seems like a subtle push in the direction of a BaB lynch while attaching pro-town reasons to it.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

SORRY CKD!

I made a mistake.

EBWOP:

(on post 121, the first quote by Bib refers to Amor reacting in a scummy way, the other two still refer to CKD.)

Also, I recently looked up Bib's posts, and his reactions fall completely into category A) being town , and so I feel that Bib isn't mafia right now. I didn't see anything above that I'm supposed/should respond to, if I missed anything, let me know.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK my Monday is going to be super busy...going to attack this thread (again, it is going to take me an hour or two to REPLY) on Tuesday or Wednesday.

[Amor]

Let me briefly clear this up: I still think that BAB is probably scum, which is why I'm voting for him. His flip-flopping and using "traps" is suspicious and not, I would think, typical newbie behavior. I'm certainly not saying that we should lynch him

because

he's the VI. (Which is a distinction I'm not sure I agree with, BTW.) My thoughts are just that if he did turn out to be town, it would be less of a loss than if we lynched another player, which could be a point in favour of voting him. I disagree with CKD about this topic. And no, I'm not 100% sure BAB is mafia, but I think he's the most suspicious right now.

(I realize I'm probably focusing on BAB too much, but I honestly don't have a lot to comment on in regards to other players.)

[Amor]

EBWOP: WLC, why are you still voting Occult?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

The game has seemed to slow down a bit lately, and people have yet to answer my questions (top of 212) regarding if I'm helping the town. Well, in order to push discussion forward, I'm going to ask a few questions:

Amor: Is it scummy if someone FOSes you and you ignore it? Is it scummy to encourage L-2 early on in the game?

JS: What are your top three suspects for being scum? Please answer this question.

RI: What are your thoughts on WLC?

Cerb: Is lurking scummy? What is the biggest scum-tell you find in games? Has anyone been exhibiting it?

Bib: Who do you think the possible scum pairs are? Do you see anyone who seems to be connected in a scummy way?

WLC: Please tell me why you are pro-town, and what you have been doing to support the town.

CKD: no question because apparently you're busy and have to respond to my other posts, but you could answer any of these questions.

I directed the questions semi-randomly, so if there's a question you want to respond to that I didn't ask, please feel free to do so.

[JimSauce]

You, CKD, (though I doubt you're scum together), then I dunno. I would say Amor, but he's currently far below you and CKD.

[Radio_Interference]

Krrrzzzzt.....

...e fights for his friends!...

[Agreement]

Yes, it has slowed down.

[Bab]

I think that you're tapering off you're strong suite against CDK, so I beleive it's fair of me to ask this question. Did your original post against CDK gain influence from Albert B. Rampages topic about how to bust scum, or whatever in the Mafia Discussion form? I'm asking because your post didnt appear long after his post was posted, and it followed most of what he set up. If it did then I think I can give you a few peices of advice that should stop some of the stuff you've been experiencing in this game from happening too much in the other games. And no, I don't find your posts stupid enough to tell you to stop posting.

[Cerb]

To answer your question, I haven't found Bab's posts useless. I think he could become a talented player after he gets the gist of the game. To directly answer I've managed to get some information off of his interactions with other players. Yes, he's inconsistant, and yes he overdramatizes things, and yes, I have a problem with how strongly he's gone for things without having much information to go back on, but even erratic assualts against a player can bring out information. I do however conceed that if Bab makes many more posts like his one verses CDK, with little actual evidence to back anything up with but enough conviction to kill an angel, problems will be had. As it is, I have some questions saved up that may or may not become moot after CDK posts his reply. And no, they won't do much for me if I ask them now

[On lists]

Not a big fan of lists myself, as should be pretty apparent with how often I use them. I think that it does give mafia a hint of where everyone else thinks the power roles are, and where everyone else thinks the most town players are. I don't particularly like player-by-player analysis in some cases due to this effect also. But, thats just my opinion on the matter, and I'm certainly not against either enough to mention it as it's more superstition then anything else.

[On WLC]

I don't like how little he actually posts, but again, it's not just his game he does it in. He has managed to answer questions, and he gives his opinions when asked. I'll sit a little easier when he makes some kind of a comprehensive case against someone, or gets in a posting spree, but to put it bluntly i don't think he's going to be a day 1 lynch regardless of if he's scum or not.

[WLC]

Do you have any comments on these few pages? I know you posted about looking back before the weekend came.

[CDK]

Can't wait for your reply. Should be fun

*Transmission out*

[JimSauce]

It's CKD.