Micro 193 - HD had a Greater Idea (Mafia)! [GAME OVER]

[ChannelDelibird]

What a boring set of discards.

VOTE: JasonWazza

All: Briefly, you do you prefer being town, scum, third-party or just the coolest/funniest available role?

Generally speaking I prefer Lyncher, Survivor and town to almost all scum roles, with exceptions for things like Mafia One-shot Dayvig because, c'mon.

[ChannelDelibird]

Cheery dog was the one who turned down maf 1shot dayvig

I know. If I thought it made him scummy I'd've voted him for it.

[ChannelDelibird]

My access will be slightly reduced this weekend, particularly on Saturday. Just FYI.

Mod Response

Took this down as a V/LA for the weekend, let me know if this is wrong. ~HD

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: JasonWazza
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

Wanted to see what she'd do. Answer: Nothing particularly incriminating, not that it was super-scientific but felt like going with DrDolittle's attempt to find scum. Dolitte looks town, as does Cheery Dog.

VOTE: Grimgroove A bit spectatory.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ooooooh, very happy with my vote now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Balls and/or fuck. Catching up tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm in the mood so the catch-up is happening right now. FEAR ME.

[ChannelDelibird]

In process of reading through thread taking notes but let's just address this immediately.

Going off the discards, i would probably vote CDB.

The RQS looks scummy as fuck.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

@Everyone:

Do you prefer to be scum or town?

I make a policy of asking this to everyone with whom I play Greater Idea for the first time because it is useful. People suspected me for it in the linked game. They were wrong. Don't call it

R

QS, either - it's evidently not random because of the discard mechanic.

[ChannelDelibird]

The answer to the preference question obviously doesn't affect what cards we were randomly dealt. It does help us to weigh up claims later when people say "this is the role that I chose over my discard". Anyway I say it in every game so case closed, move on, update your vote (you may already have done so but I haven't read all the way yet).

[ChannelDelibird]

P-Edit: It doesn't make it any less scummy that you do it every game, you do realize that?

IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SCUMMY AT ALL IF I'M PROVEN TO DO IT EVERY GAME. I have just given you proof that I do it as town too, so how can you possibly argue that I'm more likely to be scum for having done it?

[ChannelDelibird]

A couple of things I learned from reading back:

Guyett is probably town (but needs to be corrected; I'm a Southampton fan). DrDolittle is all kinds of town.

Mac could absolutely be scum. Far too reactive. I have more of an unsettling feeling on Grimgroove but Mac's worse. UNVOTE: Grimgroove, VOTE: Mac

Convince me that you want us to find the scum, Mac. I don't see a lot of evidence for it so far.

[ChannelDelibird]

In that the questions you're asking only seem to pop up when you spot something that you ought to or simply can safely ask about, rather than following a pattern of actually proactively hunting for scum.

Who do you think is most likely to be scum?

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason, you can't apply cookie-cutter tells to people and go "I think x is generically scummy, so anyone who does x is scummy for doing it". People are different and, if you want to vote for me, you have to explain why I, specifically, am more likely to be scum than town. If you accept that I ask about alignment preferences at the start of Greater Idea games all the time, then it simply does not logically follow that doing it in this game makes me more likely to be scum than town. I am not asking you to take it as a towntell. I am pointing out that it can only be a null tell on me.

[ChannelDelibird]

well right now I think Grimgroove is voting me and letting others do the work which isn't town motivated in any way.

So why aren't you voting for him?

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not advocating that we spent time NOW talking about preferences, for the record. I wish more people had answered me earlier on but we've got more pressing matters at hand. Just to clear up any confusion.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB am i dumb for not voting Mac?

why dont we like whoever im currently voting (i think ^this^) but im at work so i cant check right now

You're not dumb but it would help if you voted for Mac!

I voted for Grimgroove because it looked like he was watching and summarising rather than playing. I think Mac is worse.

[ChannelDelibird]

because I wanted to see if he'd do the work himself.

no such luck yet however

And you think your vote would have stopped him doing that? (I don't want this to become a theory argument but, come on, if you think something has 'no town motivation at all' then how can you not vote)

How are you

still

not voting? How bad does it have to get?

[ChannelDelibird]

Spoiler: Please, Guyett, don't make me write walls this long again. I hate writing them and I hate reading other people's.

I'm a bit cautious of this. This looks like a not so subtle townclaim and I'm suspicious of people who bring up examples of past games of themselves doing the exact same thing... I'm all for others bringing it up but when you bring it up yourself it looks desperate. Especially the way it says this is what I did before when I was town... look I've done it again (hint hint I am town)

You've clearly missed this:

I am not asking you to take it as a towntell.

The only reason I've brought it up again is because Jason is using it as a reason to suspect me, when it clearly can't be as I logically explained a short while ago. It's just what I do, generally, with people with whom I have not played Greater Idea before. It's not a towntell. It's not a towntell. It's not a towntell.

post 49 could you explain this one to me? I dont quite get it. thanks

I wanted to give the impression that I was more sure than I was to see whether he would react as if he knew why I was certain. When I write posts as scum, I know which parts of the post feel 'riskier' so I was trying to see if he'd show signs of the same behaviour. He didn't, particularly, he just ignored it. That's interesting in and of itself but in a different way. Still my second pick for scum.

Ignoring the bit about the preference question other than to say this final word on the whole matter: I do it all the time because, when we started playing in face-to-face and Skype, it definitely did help us to develop reads. It's more useful for when you play a bunch of games with the same people so you can see patterns but the potential is enough that I find it helpful to do at the start of the game. It's also interesting to see who replies and who just ignores it, sometimes. I also do it as scum because it's what I do as town (and scum in this game still need to scumhunt). I'm moving on from this now.

post 114seems a bit WIFOM

It's not WIFOM, it's just logic. Seriously. I'm not saying "woooo I can't be scum because I did this", I'm saying "you can't read anything into it". It simply does not logically follow at all. If I exhibit Behaviour A in all games (both as town and scum) then exhibiting Behaviour A in this game gives zero indication as to whether I am town or scum in that game. How can I make that any clearer?

post 115 Could you expand a bit more on your Mac vote please? Something more indepth than just over reactions. You ask Jason to do it in post 120 so why can't you do it

I'm not asking Jason in 120 to do anything other than realise that he cannot have his vote on me only for something which is proven to be a null tell.

I have nothing to expand on Mac. I don't think he is proactively trying to find scum. I think he is faking the appearance of being interested in finding scum (badly).

Also what are your reasons for me being town?

Mainly based on the way you talked about your choice of role and how in a way it might have been the wrong choice. It felt town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason, you've posted everywhere but here since I pointed out how your vote is inadmissable. Come back and do better.

[ChannelDelibird]

Grimgroove, the subject of you looking like a spectator earlier is:
1) Not a subject on which either of us can change the other's mind
2) Not currently relevant as both of us would rather lynch Mac first

So I shall not be going into any further detail.

[ChannelDelibird]

Trollie, join me on Mac. We'll lynch Grimgroove tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also,

MOD:

Can we have a prod on JasonWazza please?

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Mac
VOTE: Grimgroove

[ChannelDelibird]

Town conspiracy theorist is a cop/miller, not a miller.

I was getting bugged that Grim was more likely scum over the last page or so, now I think he's definitely scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

This really is the least important semantic argument we could possibly be having so let's stop.

[ChannelDelibird]

It's posts like 194 that

are

my case, Grim. You're being so mechanical. "You can't get me lynched, you have no case." "Conspiracy Theorist is a convenient claim for scum so the fact that Mac has claimed it means that he should be lynched." You're completely uninterested in

how

people say things, only

what

they say.

[ChannelDelibird]

I've been playing this game for years. Do you think I vote for everyone who applies logic to things?

No. I am specifically voting for you because I believe that you are hiding behind these things. You are sitting back and looking for actions that could be construed as coming from scum rather than really trying to figure out whether they are thinking like scum. You are doing this because you know any lynch will do as long as it is not your own. You are doing it because you are trying to do things which have the least possible risk of incriminating yourself.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason, your argument seems to be "I asked for alignment preferences as town in all those games so that I could be protected when I did it as scum". That would count as playing against my wincon in those games as town and thus I would not do it. I play my town game naturally and fake that town game as scum, not the other way around, because that is how you play to your wincon.

I know you're saying "it's only WIFOM, it cannot help" but, let me be absolutely clear about this,

the only reason I continue to do it is because it has genuinely helped inform my scumhunting (in a way that made me more successful at it than without) in previous games

. If I thought it was actively hurting my ability to pick through WIFOM I would have stopped doing it. It is perfectly OK for you to disagree with me on this but that does not mean that we are opposite alignments. I don't know why you are continuing to argue with me over it, nor why your vote is still on me. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the practice, it is logically proven that my doing it does not affect my alignment in any way.

You've pointed out things that you think are scummy from other players in your catch-up but your vote is still on me despite your reasoning being proved null. Why are you still voting for me?

[ChannelDelibird]

Still think Grim is scum, partly because of how it's

killing

him that I won't engage with him on his terms about my read.

[ChannelDelibird]

DrDolitte: I like what you're doing with Guyett, it's making my townread on him fade, but I'd still rather lynch Grimgroove.

[ChannelDelibird]

(4) Grimgroove - TheTrollie, Mac, CDB, Guyett
(2) JasonWazza - EspeciallyTheLies, Cheery Dog
(1) Mac - Grimgroove
(1) Guyett - DrDolitte

(1) Not voting - JasonWazza

[ChannelDelibird]

Grimgroove, I'd just like to say that I'm in a bit of a bad mood today because of some stuff not to do with this game and I hope my approach isn't being affected by that. I think you're scum, but I don't want to just wind you up for the sake of it. I just don't think that engaging you in the way that you want will help because of, well, I've already explained what I think you're doing. That might not be a way to get everyone else to agree with me and jump on as well but it seems like you're getting pretty close without me doing that anyway. I may come back with a post for everyone else summarising my thoughts more clearly at some point soon but I think I may need to disconnect from things for a day or something to do that without turning this into some sort of weird sniping match.

[ChannelDelibird]

Nah it's nothing serious (not even a RL issue really), just grumpy.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry - I wasn't accusing you of sniping. I felt like I was about to if I carried on right then and there.

I've played with Trollie a few times - mostly face-to-face and over Skype, so slightly different but it helps inform forum play more than the other way around - and I think he's town for the moment. At this point I don't think there's a need to do more than just ask people to trust me on that.

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, obviously, Grim, you're not putting on an entire playstyle for this game because you drew scum. I accept that part of this is just how you play. But I think that, within that, there are signs that you are being reserved and playing safe. I think your scumread on Mac is genuine enough but that doesn't affect anything.

[ChannelDelibird]

I will neither confirm nor deny that because a) it's not relevant, the only important part was that I'm grumpy today and b) if it were true, confirming would be breaking the rules about discussing ongoing games.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason has been more active here in the past 24 hours than at any previous time in this game. Why mention it now?

[ChannelDelibird]

Erm OK

UNVOTE: Whoever (Grimgroove?)
VOTE: Guyett

Marathons have been distracting me, so I apologise. Cult claims are fun though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Well that was an odd day. Presuming I'll end up going back to Grimgroove or Mac, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

The Cheery Dog kill is interesting, though, I must admit. He was pretty against lynching both Grim and Mac. I think I could see it as just trying to kill the towniest-looking player and CD was more or less that, perhaps, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't nag at me a bit.

[ChannelDelibird]

Superpologies. Got a few things to catch up with; addressing this tonight hopefully.

[ChannelDelibird]

Let's start here.

I don't have an arguement

... yet.

Actually I think you're scum. VOTE: Jason

This is coming from scum.

No it isn't. Why do you think this is more likely to come from scum than town?

[ChannelDelibird]

The Cheery Dog kill is interesting, though, I must admit. He was pretty against lynching both Grim and Mac. I think I could see it as just trying to kill the towniest-looking player and CD was more or less that, perhaps, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't nag at me a bit.

WIFOM, come on, you know better than to make a non-argument like that.

Nightkill analysis is underrated on mafiascum these days, precisely because it's always immediately shot down with "WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM". As long as you bear in mind that it's not the be-all and end-all, it's worth thinking about who stands to gain from deaths. Certainly, when I'm scum, I more or less always try to kill the most beneficial possible target. In this case, I don't think there's a huge difference made because, if it was just killing the towniest-looking player, it doesn't alter my suspicions. If it was done to make you or Mac look better ... it doesn't alter my suspicions.

You promised me something during Day 1. You said you would do it later because you were in a grumpy mood or something, but you still didn't up to this point.

I didn't actually promise you anything but, hey, here I am.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mac, why didn't you claim your investigation results when you posted your V/LA notice?

[ChannelDelibird]

VOTE: Mac

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm here but I don't really have anything to add today. I find Mac's response to being called out on his investigation results pretty inadequate.

[ChannelDelibird]

I got shot last night.

Claim immediately and in full.

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Mac
VOTE: DrDolitte

[ChannelDelibird]

Saulus only switches alignments if it is lynched.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm going to PM the mod about this but HD has played a lot of Greater Idea with us on Skype and I would expect him to know that.

[ChannelDelibird]

Saulus only switches alignments if it is lynched.

Check the Wiki-article. There it says nightkills also lead to an alignment switch.

Not in Greater Idea.

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, I'm more likely to understand if HD got confused based on the wiki, but I would have expected him to remember that it doesn't work that way in GI.

UNVOTE: DrDolitte until I get an answer, though, I suppose.

[ChannelDelibird]

HD says he's using the wiki definitions. Remind me at the end of this game to update the Greater Idea wiki for game-specific use.

In which case I'm pretty sure I believe DrDolittle.

Sooooooo VOTE: Mac

[ChannelDelibird]

Globalpost: Between tomorrow (19th) and probably the 23rd (TBC) I *may* have limited access. Should be stable internet where I'm going but won't know how good it is until I get there.

Also I'd definitely pick VT over Judas, just sayin'. Silly argument and not even that relevant anyway.

[ChannelDelibird]

And the drawback of potentially losing because Greater Idea games can end

quick

and you may not be able to figure out what side you want to be on/switch to town quickly enough in time to win with them. And the drawback of basically needing to claim Judas because otherwise it looks

bad

and then the whole WIFOM argument beginning.

VT is much easier and more fun.

But this is even less relevant.

[ChannelDelibird]

"not alien" =/= "innocent"

You should claim your result, though I don't believe that you have one. It doesn't guarantee their death overnight but it could help inform town's night actions.

[ChannelDelibird]

also, I don't see any scum motivation behind not claiming. Why couldn't he just make up a random person not guilty to pass it off - its not like the alien would counter and say, yes im alien

Because of potential trackers/watchers/hiders etc etc etc. Making up night actions is always a risk.

[ChannelDelibird]

Lets assume this

Werewolf.
Alien

Judas

Town

Alien attempts to kill

Judas

Town

Therefore

Judas

Town has NO reason to kill the Alien BECAUSE THEY WANT TO LYNCH THE MOTHERFUCKING WEREWOLF FIRST.

Is there anything wrong with this?

Can't quite tell for sure what "this" you're referring to but, if you mean "Jason's post", the answer is "yes, pretty much everything about it".

[ChannelDelibird]

Because it's not only a single scum that is by themselves that would be afraid of a kill.

Could you clarify this sentence please?

[ChannelDelibird]

Include pronouns.

[ChannelDelibird]

Goodness me. I mean proper names, not pronouns. I'm supposed to be bloody subeditor. Forgive me.

[ChannelDelibird]

There is no reason to assume that:
a) Mac is necessarily an alien
b) If Mac is an alien, he used his kill last night
c) If Dolitte is a Judas, he has no buddies
d) Dolittle doesn't genuinely have a townread on Mac. As a Judas, he might be doing it for towncred in case people lynch Mac without his help

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, hang on: Why do you assume that Mac 'wasted' his kill on DrDolitte, Jason? Do you know who killed Cheery Dog?

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason, Saulus wouldn't have had a kill last night (or ever) because they can't have communication with any mafia buddies because they might become town and then expose them. Saulus just knows they are aligned with the mafia to start, not who their buddies are.

On that part of your theory, you are understandably mistaken. I'm still considering exactly what kind of wrong the rest of your theory is.

[ChannelDelibird]

and i think if DrDoLittle's claim has ANY scrap of truth, that the Alien kill was wasted.

Why is one of the kills from an Alien?
Why was the Alien's kill 'wasted' on Dolittle rather than doing exactly what it was supposed to on Cheery Dog?

[ChannelDelibird]

Now given the info DrDoLittle has given us assuming the following is natural;

a) there was 2 kills (quite easily the simple assumption is that there is 2 factions.)

Vig? One-shot vig? PGO?

c) That therefore leaves Mac (or assumedly someone else) as an Alien.

Again, why Alien?

[ChannelDelibird]

...Yeah, OK, he's scum. I was trying to figure out if his understandable wrongful assumption that a Saulus would have been able to claim one of last night's kills might be at the root of a genuine town hunt. But I don't even think that line of thinking is one he's consistent in showing.

Next thing that I want to happen is Mac to claim a result. Then we'll lynch one of them.

[ChannelDelibird]

The reason why people are screaming "Mac is an alien" is because he claimed Conspiracy Theorist, as if aliens are the only kind of scum who would claim a role which appears in triplicate. Marginally more likely to be an alien, sure, but "Mac is just some kind of scum" is the more compelling angle.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, would that still be the case if he is a single scum member (ie. as Salrus he is the only Mafia member) because i would have thought that didn't apply.

Yes, in the same way that a lone Mafia Traitor in normal games can't kill even if the whole of their team is dead. They're just working to benefit the mafia rather than actually become one - and the fact that they can't fairly be told who their buddies are if there are buddies means that it's unfair to tell them that there are

no

buddies because that's more information than they would normally have.

The reason i am saying Mac made an alien kill, is because that is the only logical way in my mind of thought that it would have made sense.

The only logical way?

How does Mac making, say, a mafia or werewolf kill not logically make some kind of sense? Or anyone else, for that matter?

[ChannelDelibird]

Yeah, not good enough.

Mac, get in here and claim your result so we can lynch Jason.

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Mac
VOTE: JasonWazza

[ChannelDelibird]

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[ChannelDelibird]

I can't believe I was onto both Grim and Mac from Day 1 and never got either of them lynched. Surprised at Jason's flip but there you go...

What I'm trying to say is GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[ChannelDelibird]

Why didn't cupid's Arrow work on me?

Nobody else targeted you. The Cupid's effect doesn't apply to the Cupid itself.

[ChannelDelibird]

But the conspiracy theorist claim! Like why would you fake claim CT otherwise?

For pretty much all of the reasons people listed in thread?

CBD, are you still going to edit the wiki

I will do, yes.

[ChannelDelibird]

Yeah, it was

really

weird. At least qualify it when you're posting, just say "I'm making an assumption here, let me run with it".

[ChannelDelibird]

I still don't understand what made you make those assumptions at all, that's the thing, there was no reason to think that one was more likely than the other.

[ChannelDelibird]

Thought you said the other kill was an assumed werewolf, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, in which case I don't think that's ever going to make sense to me. Not worth arguing about any more. Sorry for mislynching you, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you had no reason to assume that there wasn't a mafia who mistakenly killed Dolittle, for example.

[ChannelDelibird]

Are you going to tell me how you figured me out, CDB? :p

I didn't hold anything back that I didn't mention in the thread. Stuff about you looking like a spectator etc and just general feeling. I was less confident on Day 2, though - I certainly would have lynched Mac before you.

[ChannelDelibird]

I had Doctor or Mason Lover. I really wanted Mason Lover =(