Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[Aureal]

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

[Aureal]

I don't know whether to be impressed or distressed by that joke theft.

[Aureal]

lol I just realized that there's 4 A's hahahahaha

A's versus the world!

VOTE: Datisi

You can't just go declare the strategy out loud like that! There's more of them than us!

[Aureal]

Andante you seem really excited to play mafia!

FACTS

Why is that? Not this game seems to imply that you were recently mafia.

Does having recently been Mafia have any bearing on the likelihood of someone being Mafia here?

Answer: no, it does not.

VOTE: Alisae, defend the honor of Roger Rabbit!

[Aureal]

That's not really why I went through that line of questioning?
Like yes, having been mafia recently does not have any bearing on the likelihood if them being mafia here. I'm trying to get a read on what alignment this excitement comes from and if it seems fake or not.

It seems pretty normal to be excited for the start of a game, so I'm not sure why it drew such scrutiny. I didn't really see the connection to the later posts without your explanation but I guess this is a thing you could do, in which case what did it tell you?

This does not read like someone who is actually trying to understand what Alisae is doing, and then asking if it is town or scum. It reads like someone who wanted to pick someone to call scum.

Like jumping around yelling that someone is scum for no real reason isn't half of what the early game is.

[Aureal]

Makes sense. That sequential questioning style is actually similar to how I tend to play, but I don't tend to get into the swing of a game early on; I either make people think I'm scummy for posting fluff too long or make people think I'm scummy for picking at something they think is silly. And probably even fuzzier on what people are doing right now since I've apparently come down with COVID somehow. Sigh.

Still don't know how you can call that a mediocre movie though. Or a kids movie.

[Aureal]

If what I was doing is similar to your play how come you couldn't identify it? I don't think it should be that hard to pick up on.

This seems to miss the point. Having a similarity in style doesn't give me insight into your thoughts on what to question. I'll try to be more aware of it now but the followup talk about Mafia teammates hadn't registered as an attempt to sort linked to the question about having been Mafia recently, just early game chitchat. Why do you think it should be that clear, when you don't present your thought process until I said something? You didn't even come to any conclusion.

[Aureal]

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

[Aureal]

I'm getting to you soon, I'm slower posting from a phone and I just got back from my testing appointment.

[Aureal]

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

So on page three you repeatedly urge people to vote me without giving any reasoning, then finally you bring this out. This was actually in response to you being asked about Andante, so firstly it's ducking a question because it doesn't follow that my being scum would make Andante town.

Secondly, you're just making an assertion about my play based on your own opinion and making a fallacious appeal to authority. Are you really surprised people thought you were meta reading me after that post? That's exactly what that post looks like to me, except I know it isn't because I know we've never played together before.

I'm reading that she's going through the motions. That she's just playing how it always goes. That's in her posts.

I think if you are town you don't have to do that, you just read the posts and play. As scum you have to play as you always do.

What is in my posts is a caution against blindly scumreading me because you don't like the way I dealt with something in early game. And the criticism here seems especially bad faith because you, so far as I can tell, are scumreading me for failing to draw a connection between a sequence of posts. In other words, for reading posts and playing based off what I saw. You're basically just saying "git gud or else scum" to me here.

Because if you don't pressure someone what are you doing. And herta is there as a RVS, they'll get cold feet (or they don't) and it'll be interesting to see what they do. And if someone quickhammers, that'd be very convenient too, wouldn't it. Tomorrow would be easy.

This seems a bit shallow. I thought town would obviously not quickhammer except possibly by accident when I first came back to playing. 1068 proved me wrong, not only was Enchant's hammer town but Menalque as the fourth vote egging Enchant on to hammer was also town. Do you feel you know enough about everyone here to know they wouldn't do that as town?

[Aureal]

So if Aureal is town, she'd be annoyed I was pushing here and I'm doing it somewhat annoyingly. I'd get that. OMGUS happens. It's pretty counterproductive, town shouldn't do it, but that's no reason to eliminate someone.

I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to argue that town should not scumhunt among people who are voting for them??? I think that's often the most natural thing to do- who else is going to have a better perspective on what's accurate about arguments about me than me?

However, I have two issues with the post, where I feel it doesn't work with an OMGUS vote. Aureal isn't so much annoyed with my accustion. Aureal makes two accusations from the posts where I'm accusing her, but she goes with related subjects and she attaches labels to it. For one, I'm appealing to authority (a known flaw), however this is about a post where I describe my own logic, I'm appealing to me. There's no authority I'm referring to, I'm scumhunting and being convinced of my own logic. There's no refutal or annoyance at the way the logic would be wrong (in case this is an emotional OMGUS).

You're trying to discredit my reasoning by waving omgus around. That's not a great sign. And thanks for confirming that you're appealing to your own authority on how I should play, that's exactly what I'm taking issue with. You don't have that authority.

Secondly, in the post where I describe this I'm being asked about my townread about you. A townread in an earlier post I explained the reasons why I wasn't going to answer that. That's not ducking a question, I faced the question, explained why I didn't want to answer it. A continuous question was how people could judge me then, and I preferred to explain about my scumread instead. A townread on you has nothing to do with her vote on me.

This is kind of word salady but I'm trying to parse. You're right that a townread on Andante has nothing to do with my vote so I'm not sure why you're throwing that line out there like it's some shady thing you saw me doing.

I do see now that you explained earlier that you didn't want to explain yet, but the segue into that post is still weird because it's trying to draw a link between the read on Andante which you didn't want to discuss and your read on me. Is your read on Andante related to me?

Also, Andante has a wagon going now, so are you starting to feel more inclined to share your reasoning?

[Aureal]

It's been a decent chunk of the conversation on the last page, I don't feel bad for checking to see if you've read the game

Andante has claimed that not reading everything is not ai for her. Do you disagree with that assessment?

[Aureal]

I can't see where Andante claimed this prior to the post you quoted

I don't think not reading is AI in itself. I wanted to make sure that's what was actually happening though.

Yeah, was wondering what prompted you to check. You have something of a meta read on her that seems to clash with what others say, so I guess I'm trying to poke around at that stuff. And I've been staring at this struggling to get at what exactly I want to get at so I'm going to just leave it there for now.

Alisae: did you actually vote me because you think myko made a decent point, or did you just decide to go along with the idea that it's going to give you info on Herta?

[Aureal]

Do you not think that mykonian has basically reversed their reasoning for scumreading me with that post? Earlier the reason was that I'm just doing what I would normally do as town, not playing based off what I see. Now it's that I'm

not

doing what I did earlier as town. In other words, reacting to the game I actually have, not doing whatever it is I'm "supposed" to do because I did it before. This game is not particularly resembling that one. I don't think mykonian is reading the posts they linked with an intent to understand them, they're just trying to cherry pick an argument against me.

Also, did it occur to you that you also had the opportunity to put Andante at e-1 to get info on Datisi and Ari, which you also say you wanted?

[Aureal]

No I thought "wow he did the meta for it wow it looks like he's scumhunting and trying to solve your slot. Sounds like they believe this read they have."
It's pretty shallow.

I'm unclear what the last sentence is referencing.

I don't think comparing Andante to your wagon is fair. Herta is pure RVS while Wavelength and Myko came to that conclusion on their own. My impression of the Andante wagon was it was just 3 people who mutually agreed to vote there. Klick is town, I think Datisi is pushing a read, and I don't really know what Ari is doing.

What makes you certain Herta's vote was RVS?

[Aureal]

I don't really feel like Aureal is arguing in good faith. When Myko pushed back on their cross vote, Aureal took an incredulous angle that obviously town should hunt inside people voting them

I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to argue that town should not scumhunt among people who are voting for them??? I think that's often the most natural thing to do- who else is going to have a better perspective on what's accurate about arguments about me than me?

But then, when talking about Herta's vote asked

What makes you certain Herta's vote was RVS?

Which makes me feel like they have not actually looked at Herta at all

And they also have not appeared to make any statement about my own alignment.

So it does not really look like she is hunting in her voters, she is just fighting Myko. Which makes her response in the first quote I pulled feel like it was just a response to win the argument vs talking about what they were doing, which seems more likely to come from scum to me

You want a read on you? You hadn't done much to ping me so you were pretty null, but this post is full of hot garbage so you can have some scum points too. That better?

1) you wildly mischaracterize the very words you quoted, turning me saying it's "often the most natural" thing to do into some sort of proscription that one "should" scumhunt among their own voters. Did you miss that this was in response to myko claiming that one should

not

scumhunt there? Like obviously town should scumhunt wherever there can be scum and that's going to include the people voting for you.

2) have

you

looked into Herta? They've made two posts, it's not hard. I am not convinced the vote must be total RVS, I can see the possibility they had some reasoning for it and I don't know how Alisae especially can be certain without Herta coming back to explain. Are you 100% certain it's total RVS?

3) no really, obviously I'm fighting myko, they're the one giving me ammunition. Without going back to check exactly what your reasoning was, I'm pretty sure you've mostly just talked about how you

feel

about what I say, which isn't really something I can argue. When you start giving specifics like you finally did here, I can start telling you why your reasoning is bad.

[Aureal]

Alisae, do you think your joat role is the only non vanilla role in the game? I'm of the thought that massclaiming in general is bad, and your plan seems like it would nicely narrow the possibilities down for finding people who potentially have more useful roles.

[Aureal]

Alisae, do you think your joat role is the only non vanilla role in the game? I'm of the thought that massclaiming in general is bad, and your plan seems like it would nicely narrow the possibilities down for finding people who potentially have more useful roles.

It's possible it's not the only non-vanilla role in the game! This is the only con I can see to this but I feel like it's still +EV regardless.

I am no game designer but think it's more than just possible, I think it's almost certain. Your role has zero ability to confirm anything about anyone. You could send me a message saying "hi it's Alisae, I am town" but I have no more reason to believe it than from you saying it here. There's got to be something that actually helps with finding scum, game is way too scumsided otherwise.

[Aureal]

"Hi I'm just not going to play the first gameday kthxbai"

Really think that calls for a replacement but in case they are around at all VOTE: Herta

[Aureal]

UNVOTE: Herta

My thoughts were also much more in line with Datisi, and from four people so far claiming uninformed that seems to be bearing out as more valid. If both scum and Alisae's expected three town have that role that means literally all of us who've yet to weigh in. Just not seeming so likely.

[Aureal]

I just played with aureal in a newbie and this just feels like it. I expect her to close down on people scumreading her, especially if it's for reasons she dislikes, and I view her reactions to myko as making a lot of sense for her and not scum posturing.

I am a little curious as to how you have expectations for what I would do in regards to people scumreading me; there was very little of that going on in that game since I got to skip tripping over my own feet in the early game by replacing in on page six, with a nice juicy argument that I can sink my teeth into sitting there waiting for me.

[Aureal]

Why do scum focus on Winning Arguments

Yeah I wonder that too. Like, what the heck are town supposed to do if people don't agree with them, shrug and go play videogames instead?

I guess it explains the scumreading of me, but I really don't get it. Isn't this game

about

arguing?

Gimli is like night and day from when we were scum together
Gimli's got a real perspective in this game and is passionate about it and I think it's because he believes what he's saying
Scum Gimli wanted to keep options open
This Gimli is eliminating options, limiting himself, because he's solving this game

Hmmm. This Gimli isn't seeming too different from the game we just played where he was scum. I don't think I can metaread him based off a scum game, and I think he knows that, as we had a little conversation in that game about what I might expect from someone who I had just seen as scum ("I don't really know").

Pedit: yes I wrote that without seeing Gimli's reply

[Aureal]

I think that in most of Gimli's interactions with Ari, he does not appear to be talking in a way that makes sense to be a townie talking to their top scum read [who they think is currently pushing you in bad faith.]

He looks like he is talking to a townie that he is trying to get to re-evaluate him (especially early on) / discredit her read if she doesn't (more of this later on).

Once I made it clear that I did not wish to interact with him on my scum read on him (largely because I find that to be a fruitless endeavor for both parties, and one of the worst ways to get a genuine re-evaluation of a scum read) I am now being described as tunneled to discredit my read as well.

I feel like a lot of this is echoing the way you were seeing me as well, would that be a reasonable assessment?

Anyway, I'm not sold on Gimli yet but I am trusting Klick and obviously we need to figure out Andante so I will VOTE: Andante here. I don't understand this slot at all- can anyone with meta on her explain how the heck someone who apparently thinks that reading 90% of the game is optional can manage to play this game?

Pedit: hi Andante, feel free to answer that question for yourself too please

[Aureal]

obviously we need to figure out Andante

what's the rush?

I dunno, ask mykonian? He was getting very worked up about a 'deadline' or something. And the game hadn't even been open 48 hours yet.

[Aureal]

Well you're the one bringing up the concept of any sort of rush, so asking me to explain what you're talking about isn't very fair is it? The only other person who I've noted being concerned about time is, as I said, mykonian.

[Aureal]

Well I see I am definitely in a game full of people who have much more confidence in themselves than I understand. As usual. @_@

[Aureal]

Sure, I'm VT also.

I guess the question we're at now is, does the other scum have something vaguely more useful than vendoring to counter the vaguely useful stuff myko claimed? Kinda leaning towards yes, if this is supposed to be complex. Just dressing some people up with informed fruit doesn't really make it that complex, does it?

[Aureal]

Oh and yes, Klick, lazy is a normal modifier. Enchant got my Designer role with it in that game. It does seem a little weird to modify one shot rather than your whole role but I guess it's possible?

[Aureal]

Actually before I get too hung up on that, can I ask where we got the information that it's complex?

[Aureal]

Okay, random post in the signups thread, found it.

[Aureal]

Hi I'm going to start off by doing something lest I take a nap and find the day over.

VOTE: Gimli

[Aureal]

Well, I'm mostly coming from a balance standpoint. If we call the fruit stuff a wash, we're left with two masons, one of whom had a useless investigative ability, and the vaguely useful mykonian joat abilities. Two masons is balanced but a bit scumsided, going by the track record for the newbie setups. So while I suppose it's possible that myko's role wasn't considered strong enough to make town overpowered, I'm still leaning towards the other scum having a little something besides fruit.

We've basically confirmed that Alisae does have the fruit, from the use of myko's security guard shot. And seems likely that she has the messages too. So does she have something more useful on top of that? Seems like it'd be a bit overkill. Although I guess we do have a mason with an extra ability so maybe I shouldn't read too much into my sensation of lopsidedness.

[Aureal]

omg klick locktown

and I think andante looks bad.

This could be TMI? Looking to be the first to call Klick a locktown because he knew Andante was scum and Klick did indeed catch her out.

I think one thing that could happen here is that scum!alisae picked up a vendor bullshit role and knows everytime there's a vendor bullshit scum there's other vendors who are town and whatnot and e wants to get ahead of them and hardclaim. then everything else is painting mechanics over it to make it seem like you're the towny who came up with the idea first, so that when the town fruit vendor dies people don't wanna flip you necessarily.

If Alisae is scum, this post didn't age well, as that would put the vendor roles as just both scum.

[Aureal]

done w/ this thread

if ari wants to flip me she can flip me

klick please kill alisae in f3 kthxbye

Okay good there shouldn't be too much after this for me to catch... up... on...

okay alisae then I'm done reading the game

it's you, and if it's not you I'm fine losing the game with you for playing f5 in a completely tunneled manner

gl hf losing f3 and go aureal

BOTH MASONS WANTED MYKO MAN
ÃDAD09A3JUDFAH8F8A3G8FA

what is this

I can't be mad you're just a wolf but what is this jfc

Mafia is a team game.
It doesn't just go 1 way. I don't just help you when it's convenient for you. That's a selfish way of playing and if you're going to pretend it's a team game when only you will only do what you think is right and only care to put your own reads before others, then like idunno.

Like ya you're a mason you're afraid you'll die tonight you wanna take your time that's fine, just don't promise to care about what I want when you care about what you want and you only see yourself as your only ally. I'm your teammate. One preferably uses their teammates to cover for their weaknesses. If you're confused, talk to me. If you need my help, ask me. If you don't know where to go, lean on me.

Mafia is a team game and knowing how to use your teammates strengths to cover for your weaknesses is an important aspect of the game.

I'm literally aristeia's team mate that you're shutting down. I helped kill scum on d1. you only got there when andante started flailing horrendously ITG. you spent the entire d1 enabling andante.

I wanna know what you think happens f3 after I flip. you're making sure you lose, alisae, do you understand that?

'im so good at mafia blablabla'

reality: has no perspective

I played with klick as a wolf team mate and I don't think klick is going to do with andante what klick did to andante as a scum partner. I'm hardclearing klick because of it. just check klick's ISO, they absolutely murdered andante, ari. it's not something you really do quite often to a partner early d1 of a 9er. klick caught andante in a trap play and exposed her as probable scum. that's how I got to strong SR andante when I was catching up with the game. while it's possible klick did that as a wolf, I think the only viable options as solves are alisae, me and aureal. if it's klick, I'm fine losing and we're going to lose.

I want to believe Klick is townie too which is why I think it's just you >_<

'want to believe' lol. aureal is also playing, btw, you don't even know what makes sense as a POE cause you're fake solving cause you're scum

There's an awful lot of aggressive appeal to emotion from Gimli here and I don't really dig it.

[Aureal]

I think the best way to describe Aureal’s play is it feels agendaless?
I don’t get the impression they’re informed and playing with a teammate.

I agree with this

I agree with this also.

I'm very helpful, I know.

showing frustration with a player =/= appealing to emotion

being emotional =/= appealing to emotion

Mmm, maybe I'm not applying terms exactly how they should be, but I think there's an agenda behind the emotion. Like, what are you even trying to do here? You're getting mad at Alisae for... thinking you're scum? But you think she's scum, so you get mad at her and try to convince her that she's scum? This is not going to work. If you think that she could be town and is dooming town to losing to me, you'd be better off trying to make that case on me.

[Aureal]

is this all you got, aureal? been expecting you to town it up this gameday

I'm trying. It's a little hard to interact with this game when all of the activity happens when I'm sleeping. In addition to kind of being a fifth wheel who has relatively little experience and no meta with anyone but you (and it does feel like a lot of this game has been people interacting with others based on their meta, which just isn't very helpful to me ).

Aristeia has managed to make me a little less confident in Klick, from what I'm reading. This is not a forward direction that helps my confidence in doing things. I'm now remembering how I was trying to ask him about that 'trap' for Andante, and wishing I'd managed to get more clarity there. I didn't feel like it was as straightforward "Andante is scum for not reading stuff" as you thought. The impression I got was that Andante regularly plays that way, and I was hoping people with experience with that would give insight. But it didn't really go anywhere at the time, then the second wagon on her just materialized with no real discussion of that. So I'm thinking you came in and decided she was doomed after seeing that and thus had no problem going after her. It wasn't even apparent it was going to catch fire the way it did. I think it'd be a little more weird for Alisae to put Andante at a point where she makes a scummy claim so that Alisae can call out the claim for being scummy? Or maybe Andante is just that loose of a cannon that she's not playing according to any sort of plan? I still don't really know what to make of her play other than obviously it's quite erratic.

[Aureal]

Alisae, can you explain why you called your early conversation with Andante about her excitement "productive"?

Klick, can you give me any more context for why you were scumreading Andante before the check on whether she was reading things?

[Aureal]

UNVOTE:

I can't believe I re-read all that talk about massclaiming. And I still don't have any more idea what possible benefit town could get from it. Alisae, now can you explain what you expected to happen if people had claimed like you wanted? What kind of scenarios did you expect to see?

[Aureal]

I'm back to work today so I can't get in depth with everything right now, but I can elaborate a little more on voting Andante. I obviously didn't expect that wagon to suddenly lead to an elimination like it did, but I was a bit wary of her for more than just "WTF is this play style" reasons when I voted. I don't think it's quite true that she was expressing a townread of me until I voted her. I noticed that she made a post about me after those ones where she said she liked my posts, and not only was it backing off of her liking my posts, it was digging up a post from a while back to talk about how she now wondered what she had liked about my posts. In other words, reading stuff that occurred while she wasn't here, which Klick's ploy had made clear was a thing she didn't consistently do. So I thought it was possibly notable that this one thing was worth reading back for.

[Aureal]

"strong scum case"
"do I believe in it. IDK"

furtiveglance would be all over you for that kind of waffling, lol

[Aureal]

See, if you had started out making this sort of argument I could probably feel better about you, because honestly I'm not sure why others are so confident about townreading me and it's kind of weirding me out. But doing it after spending several days getting into "no u" fights with Alisae and throwing out occasional comments about how you haven't ruled me out and their reads are shallow? It's making me feel more like you've had the argument in your pocket all along and expected someone else to go with it and you're unhappy that you have to make it yourself.

Also, that's all stuff Andante did so it seems to have been a scum attempt to pocket me/set me up as linked to her should she flip.

[Aureal]

Alisae does similarly in er arguments with Gimli but I think er responses are closer to 'Appeal to Emotion' than Gimli's responses
I think Alisae wants people to feel bad for not seeing Gimli as obvscum in places

I may have phrased things inaptly. I do see Alisae doing basically the same thing, I just singled out Gimli's posts because it seemed he was the one doing it

first

. That was the distinction I was drawing there. I wouldn't hold someone reacting to provocation to the same standard as the person doing the provoking. (not even all of Gimli's posts are just directed at Alisae either for that matter, there's definitely been some generalized shots fired)

Alisae, now can you explain what you expected to happen if people had claimed like you wanted? What kind of scenarios did you expect to see?

I expected 1 wolf to claim it, 1 wolf not to claim it and I wanted to divvy up into groups like in this open setup https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... nd_Conquer I was kind of posting in a way that would suggest to wolves to play it like this.
The plan was to then use dayplay to sort the groups

I think if my prediction was correct it would have helped us find wolves cause we can compare claims to what had happened prior in the day phase

That's an interesting concept for a game setup, but I'm still just confused how you were so confident that this game would just sort itself into something like that, to the point where you couldn't believe that Datisi could legitimately not expect it to do so. There are so many hurdles from having to correctly guess the setup to having to hope the wolves sorted themselves out like you wanted without having it mechanically verified by the game...

I mean, like, I'm not sure what the scum motivation here is. Other than helping find PRs of course but that's so obvious even I can see it. You did bring it up right after the thing where you voted me, so I could think maybe you wanted the conversation to not linger on that topic so brought up something that was bound to be a distraction. But that's probably a little self-centered of me.

[Aureal]

it shouldn't 'kind of' weird you out. if you're town then one of the players townreading you is a wolf who wants to take you to f3 and either have you on their side or have you flipped. for the last scum you're tomorrow's problem.

Sigh. I may still be able to /in as new in the newbie queue but I can at least figure that people could townread me in an attempt to get me on their side. But like, do you think

Klick

is doing that? No you do not. And Alisae is probably right in saying I'd vote there rather than for Klick, that's not that hard to figure. Ari may have shaken my TR on Klick a bit but I never really had much of one on Alisae in the first place.

[Aureal]

I'm not squinting hard at all I've had Aureal as town for a long time and it's come to me naturally

I feel like you're not really addressing what I've said in the context of it being a response to you talking about Aureal's progression on Andante and are instead responding to that post in isolation
Which feels strange to me

You say 192 says nothing about Andante but I hard disagree
Aureal is really clearly having thoughts about Andante there and I think you'd see that if you got out of the Aureal!scum tunnel for a second
She's seeing what people have said about Andante's meta. She has seen that I'm scumreading Andante based on reading Andante's way of playing differently to others, and is

actually processing the implications of that

. You see this thought process carried on in her eventual Andante vote where she *trusts me* and *sheeps my Andante vote*. The reason Aureal votes Andante is because she's following my meta, because she has decided she can trust my read there. There is GENUINE THOUGHT there.

.........

Aristeia, this post is showing (again) that Klick is definitely thinking about why people are doing what they're doing. It's very hard to not townread this. If Klick is scum, he's putting in the work too, trying to solve us even though we're already solved. I'm okay with moving my poe back down to Gimli and Alisae.

[Aureal]

I could probably find a way to inflate the pages too, I LOVE doing that as a wolf cause everyone I post I know that it's a wolf post
I had to do so when I was playing wolf with mena because I had to communicate with him and get away with it with 2 townies watching cause we didn't have a wolf PT LOL

It's really easy to hide when one assumes that everything is just junk

Ooooh, can I inflate pages too?

...actually, I think I'm at about my limit for successive posts. Maybe someday I'll manage to be around when there's someone to respond to.

[Aureal]

Ack, a person appears!

I... Well, I guess not super-strongly or anything. I came out more strongly for Gimli originally largely because I was feeling the mechanics seemed more likely to be balanced that way, with Gimli having some modest unknown wolf power like a 1-shot rolecop or something. After stewing on that a bit more though, it's probably close enough to balanced if the second wolf is just a nothingburger too, so that seems reasonable enough as well.

Maybe I'm just too wary of Gimli because he was scum in our previous game and I spent all day one strongly townreading him. It's not actually that easy for me to get strong reads, so I was a little miffed to be wrong there, though I did get others right.

And all of his posturing about how it's so obvious he's town doesn't do anything for me. I know, I'm not very good at this yet, I don't need lectures about it.

[Aureal]

Like, day one here I don't think there was anything in particular that stood out from Gimli for me. The reads were fine? It all happened so fast though, I didn't get a chance to process it and nothing just instinctively clicked, where I could see things the same way because that's how I was thinking. Maybe I've just been too out of sorts this game, it's a tough scenario for me to be in a game full of people with lots of experience both with each other and playing mafia in general. Add in other circumstances like being sick and most of the activity coming during off-hours for me and I sort of feel like I'm just standing down here watching the rest of you tightrope walk with pugel sticks and I don't quite know what to do about it. I can offer my perspective, but people haven't seemed too interested in it (hi day 2 bye day 2) and I'm not going to find some damning bit of information if I just poke at old posts enough.

I don't know that I would really call their play this day that similar though. Gimli's feels worse, and I don't think I can really articulate why right now, other than maybe because he seems to be the instigator for the emotional mudslinging. Well and I guess what I already said about it being weird that he was expressing suspicion of me BEFORE trying to do a read to find out why he should be suspicious. I've gotta get some sleep though, maybe I can come up with something else tomorrow. Or realize I'm maybe more susceptible to Alisae's AtE than I thought.

[Aureal]

Re: who started being emotional itt, I only started acting out when alisae told aristeia to vote me cause she owed er for voting myko on D2. There were some parts of D3 I felt unheard and like I'm chopped liver.

Hey, at least you mattered enough for people to care about you on D2. I woke up to talk about masons and claims and stuff and so I claimed as asked and speculated a little bit about the setup, went to look up some more info on what exactly those roles people had were, got tired and took a nap and came back to the day being over.

And all of his posturing about how it's so obvious he's town doesn't do anything for me. I know, I'm not very good at this yet, I don't need lectures about it.

Idk if it's that smart to respond to this, cause it won't necessarily help you with my alignment (and like I said in D1 I fully expected you to never townread me this game). But I would never call myself obvtown. I said I played a great d1 cause that's what I feel about my D1. I took a slot that was sussed by the masons and not TRed by anyone and helped us getting a scum flip.

That would also be what you needed to do as scum though, since Andante was already getting heat from a good few people and just didn't seem likely to be able to make it through the game. So I guess you're right, it was a good day 1 for you, whichever alignment you are.

What triggered emotional responses from me was people talking over me, not reading what I'm saying and not taking me into consideration. I feel like I'd be equally upset with that if I was scum. I've been upset with that as scum.

I offered my flip both d2 and this gameday as a reaction to alisaes tunnel. Is that good mafia playing? No it's not. But I don't mean to be manipulative or LAMIST with it. Everytime I said my flip would be good I meant it.

Of course, I don't need to flip. We can just win at any point now. Game's pretty much over imo.

It does feel kind of manipulative, especially when you follow it with stuff like the last line, lol. I just don't have the experience to tell me what to make of it. It's supposed to be anti-town for town to be self-voting/hammering, per mafia theory such as on the wiki. But in my first game back, I was tunnelled on Elements all of day 3 and she offered to vote herself so I could hammer if that would help me look beyond her. I took it as manipulation and of course didn't do anything with the offer, went into the f3 still tunnelled on her and of course was wrong there. I look back at that and realize I could've won that if I'd taken the offer. Well, figured the actual scum out, anyway- actually hammering her there probably would've made sure I got pinned as the scum in the f3.

[Aureal]

@aureal there is one thing I can do to help you townread me, actually. I noticed you received my suspicion of you positively, but argued that it looked premeditaded and like I already had that card to play and was waiting for the right moment. your ideas make a ton of sense but if you have time, I'd like to show you how my read on you developed throughout the game and especially in d3 after that changed. it's gonna be a little long, but I think if you do read through you're gonna figure out what to do next and we're gonna win, so it's worth the effort!

You are telling me to vote Alisae, yes, I get it. I don't think Aristeia is satisfied with that yet (well I mean yeah, she can hammer anytime if she is obviously ) so I don't think I'll be doing that. I guess I'm finding a little more reason to lean back that way, thinking about things more. I remembered thinking you seemed an awful lot like you were being very buddy-buddy with Klick on day 1 and maybe that was making me more wary of you, especially after just seeing you manage to pull off a mutual mega-TR with skitter. Reading back through stuff though, maybe that sensation was just all coming from the post where you agreed to vote Andante with him.

Also, I realized that if Andante was actually intentionally doing the stuff where she townread me early to set me up later as a possible partner, given her erratic style and lack of reading the game it might well have been a partner's idea. And that wouldn't be so likely from Gimli's slot given Herta's lack of presence. I dunno though, maybe someone who's more familiar with Andante has a better idea about whether she makes plans like that.

[Aureal]

Okay good, I can stop staring at this thread for hours wishing I could be useful now. @_@

maybe I just had to push klick for donowalling me when he asked me to talk about Gimli but like ya idunno Klick OP

Getting Ari to vote me was definitely on the cards
I think from there you'd have to sell Aureal on it and I think she wasn't going to bite but it's possible

Yeah probably not, but I'm glad we don't have to find out. I can get rather paranoid.