Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[davesaz]

Long-time civ player checking in. Interesting mechanics to say the least.

If you don't mind I'd prefer to be able to at least skim a few pages before lynching. And decide if I want to bid...
I was literally getting ready to walk away from the computer and go to bed when my email pinged with the PM from Nahdia.

Pedit: Hydra dissonance?

[davesaz]

Regarding Frogger's case and Yuri's response, they're a couple hundred posts apart. A link would have been appropriate. I don't know how most people do it, but I tend to take context into account when looking at that kind of link.
6 more pages to go just in catchup from last night.

[davesaz]

Finished catchup, have not read anything before my entry other than the link to Fro99er case and searching for Yuri's response.

The DEO, Fro99er, Vecna, ABR, the hydra that Maria is in: all gut town leans based on these pages. Subject to revision after I've had time to review previous events.

Questions I'd like to answer:
Did Creature bus and then get off when I replaced in and became a plausible target? Does scum!Creature have a history of avoiding pushes on lurkers? (while this question is worded as expecting Yuri to be scum it isn't really dependent on that read -- it's more about reading Creature)
Anything interesting in all the fake hammers?
Do the people not on Yuri wagon as of that point have legit scumreads on who they're voting?
Maxous posts seemed pretty shallow. Is that a game long pattern?

Pedit: ooh, new VC. That will make my off the wagon analysis easier.

[davesaz]

idk, I have Sondam (though, not so much rn), Fro99er, Caesar Wills it, you, atleast one of my scumreads, maybe ABR

Was this in response to something?

[davesaz]

Spiffeh iso gives me a town vibe but I'm not very good at reading him so it's really weak.

[davesaz]

Don't give me "activity"

Creature is actively trying to change that meta of his.

Activity was my previous townread on you, though activity isn't AI anymore for you.

This is misdirection. Fro99er's comment is about

Creature's meta

. Creature's response is about

his Fro99er read

.

A quick scan of Creature's ISO shows lots of

opinions

but next to no

reasons

.
VOTE: Creature
This is scum. I can't tell if he's scum with Yuri trying to derail, or just scum who got caught in a horrible opinion shift.

My vote may still be for hire to complete the Yuri wagon, after I analyze that slot to find out if it's really scum or not.

[davesaz]

Sorry davesaz, town is still the majority here.

Huh?

[davesaz]

@davesaz what games have you misread me in?

I don't

remember

having a correct read on you ever. But TBH I'd have to actually look at old games to know for sure.

[davesaz]

Can I have a quick case on Beeboy?
No reaction to my assertion that Creature's "activity" is nothing more than baseless "opinions"?

[davesaz]

Not going to help scum by giving you reads Ali.

Did Mala siteflake?

How would giving reads help scum?

[davesaz]

Whatever, I'll just stay and not engage with your pathetic years-spanning campaign against me.

Mod: Don't need to replace me.

oh.

What a rollercoaster

If this is the beginning of your playing day, fasten your seat belt.

[davesaz]

There's prob scum in the really active posters. There *might* be scum in the "lurkers" but all of this "we need to pressure lurkers!" feels like a distraction.

Agree that the odds are an active poster is scum. Agree that pushing for lurker pressure is a potential scumtell but don't have a specific lead in that direction yet.

[davesaz]

There's prob scum in the really active posters. There *might* be scum in the "lurkers" but all of this "we need to pressure lurkers!" feels like a distraction.

Agree that the odds are an active poster is scum. Agree that pushing for lurker pressure is a potential scumtell but don't have a specific lead in that direction yet.

Can you help us lynch Beeboy?

I haven't noticed the case I asked for...

[davesaz]

My son had an orchestra concert and we went out to dinner after -- and I fell asleep at the computer after getting home. 8 hours and ~15-20 pages later...

New thing to research -- what was the VC when Vecna went nuts? Was there an apparently unstoppable wagon build in progress that disagreed with what Vecna had been pushing before that point? That would be the only possible scum motivation, and a heck of a gamble if scum. I can see town doing it for a very good reason, which I won't go into yet...

My ABR townread is rescinded. What initially looked like righteous indignation at a vendetta now reeks of trying to shake loose of being caught for the wrong reason. The timing (just as a L-1 was reached and a town replacement appeared) and trajectory (saying practically nothing of value before that) does not look town at all.

I continue to think Creature could be scum trying to act town, but it might just be a playstyle thing. I'm willing to listen to townreads for now.
UNVOTE:

pedit: sleep it off please. I don't mean that to be preachy or anything, just worried that clouded mind -> actions you'll regret later.

[davesaz]

And another pagetop without even trying.

I think it's too early to brand a stormy section of a day as a failed town. Odds are there will be several town whose reads are outside the majority, we can't all be right. Look for the ones who deliberately muddy things.

Pedit @ Fro99er -- no, don't. I think you're more likely to be on track than not, and we need there to be multiple people willing to advocate a point of view.

[davesaz]

I can probably post before tomorrow at 2 but I am going to prod dodge anyway!

Anything to say on game state? You should be aware that we have a noose sized for you...

[davesaz]

I'm actually perfectly fine with seeing both Titus and MathBlade post, even if they don't agree.
I have read Titus correctly at least the most recent 3 games (both alignments included in sample), and Math at least a couple recent times.
If the independent reads on them line up then my read of the hydra is probably right, and it's easy enough to filter the slot's reads for accuracy since I have a track record for doing that with both of them too.

[davesaz]

Damn, I've been hovering the site all day, go into an hour long meeting and by the time it's over 11 pages are already there?
Catchup begins but it won't finish because I'm taking my wife out for dinner. Then my son to scouts. Betting on 30 pages by the time I'm back about 6 hours from now.

At the end of page 173 I think that Natural only borderline makes sense because it only allows the previous era, not all previous eras. Scum are more likely to know what's not built unless we start claiming built wonders the next morning. That seems wrong, so the best choice is most likely none.

Pedit: 5 times trying to hit submit. Really?

[davesaz]

At the bottom of page 188.

Cultural brings town's knowledge at start of next day up to match what scum can know already at beginning of night by being able to share what bids they made that failed. The cost of that increased knowledge is scum knowing at beginning of night which wonders were built in bids that scum never tried. Scum get a 1 phase advantage in timing but the knowledge they get is not much more than what they could already have. Overall town's increase is higher than scum's increase. Later game it reduces the usefulness of fakeclaiming vanilla. It also eliminates the ability of scum to fakeclaim an unbuilt to appear town.

This will probably be moot in the 19 pages I haven't read yet, but cultural has more positive utility than people are giving it credit for.

And pedit: half a page while I typed that.

[davesaz]

Just guide me to scum this time.

In the middle of my catchup, but giving fair warning -- blatant coasting like this will only earn you an incompetence read for a little while -- after that it's screaming scum.

[davesaz]

This could easily be alleviated if davesaz could cite some games that he is visibly bad at reading me.

Saying that I don't remember reading you correctly is an

out of game

(or in other words RL) statement.

I never,

ever

lie about RL

[davesaz]

@ABR and Yuri

Are the people defending A+N

A) scum that know he's town
B)scum defending their buddy
C) bad town
D) trolls

I understand that if A+N is scum there will be a mixture of B and C and if town then A and C but can you guys give me some opinions?

E) Town who think you're tunneling on someone who just expressed what many people said D1. ABR DID derail the Yuri wagon. I don't know if he's scum for doing so, don't know if it's what he intended to happen, but it is what happened.

[davesaz]

So I'm finally caught up all the way.

Nero's attempt at making a case on A&N looks town motivated. As I already said earlier during catchup, I don't agree with the basis of the case but being wrong doesn't detract from the motivation.

I reserve judgment on Caesar. Role play is fine, I don't see a reason to scumread someone for it, and it is 208 pages which is a fuckton to read no matter who you are. That degree of patience won't continue after the pace slows down a bit, and I'm going to expect that content post to make some sense.

I could be a nice guy and point Spiffeh to a place where I had trouble reading him. I am indeed being honest here that I have no confidence in that read at this point. But it's late...

I'm pretty serious on wanting more from Creature. Can someone explain the strong town read? Sheepskin is a pretty good disguise.

It's too late at night to do more than this -- almost 1am and I do have work tomorrow. If we let up on the accelerator a bit maybe there won't be 50 pages next time I have time to read. Don't get me wrong, the discussion is helpful in getting alignment data, but there is still chaff mixed in with the grain.

[davesaz]

davesaz might be scum?
his last couple of posts were kinda weird...trying to look town more than

being

town

My last few posts were on Valentine's day, after taking my wife to dinner and my son to scouts, in a near stupor of high blood sugar but not wanting to have the catchup read spill over into the next morning. That's what being town looks like when one has trouble being awake.

Thankfully it's only a couple pages this morning and not the 50 I predicted. I may actually get to put real thought into it today (Wed.) if the activity level stays at least semi-reasonable. And if I don't get buried in software defects.

[davesaz]

I could be a nice guy and point Spiffeh to a place where I had trouble reading him. I am indeed being honest here that I have no confidence in that read at this point. But it's late...

Can you do this now please?

It's a challenge to find a game we're both in. But if you look here you'll see that I didn't think I could read you back then either.
Musical mafia
Do you have one where I was certain of my read in the first couple days?

Pedit: there is more than one way to deal with toxicity between a pair of players in a game. If you have to weigh the fun of 1 or 2 people against the fun of 20+, strong action may be required to protect the 20+.

[davesaz]

@Spiffeh: Cougar's Den I never had a read on you at all and was questioning people why they townread you.
We were both town in those games.

BTW those links are excellent sources of town meta for me, in particular for situations where I'm having trouble keeping up. I leave it to the readers (if any) to draw conclusions.

[davesaz]

I wish I had more than 1-2 games in common with LUV, to know if softing / fakeclaiming is AI for him.

[davesaz]

Why would we need the pyramids claim?

[davesaz]

Pedit: there is more than one way to deal with toxicity between a pair of players in a game. If you have to weigh the fun of 1 or 2 people against the fun of 20+, strong action may be required to protect the 20+.

Someone gets it.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a way to remove the toxicity without removing the slot. With or without consent.

[davesaz]

Dave when you come back why are you haflassing your Creature push if you made it really clear that you scumread him?
-Nebby

Because other people who I townread are townreading him, and I'm trying to provoke them to explain why.

[davesaz]

could someone from the "ABR derailed the Yuri wagon" camp really explain to me what he did to derail it?

Show up and start throwing shit at Titus.
The more appropriate approach would have been to immediately force replace (and possibly ban) ABR for being abusive, but sadly the listmods did not act.

[davesaz]

I'm fully caught up, but it is bedtime again.
Tomorrow my son gets his pre-braces appliance off, so a month later braces can go on. Then we have school conferences and I squeeze in a few hours of work.
This means it will be at least 12 hours and as much as 18 before I can even seriously read the thread again much less post.

[davesaz]

could someone from the "ABR derailed the Yuri wagon" camp really explain to me what he did to derail it?

Show up and start throwing shit at Titus.
The more appropriate approach would have been to immediately force replace (and possibly ban) ABR for being abusive, but sadly the listmods did not act.

This doesnt sound like is has anything to do w me at all and everything to do with ABR and Titus

The timing is the point. Why wait until you were l-1 when he could have started sooner?

Yay wifi at the orthodontist. One finger typing on iPad still means this might not be very productive.

[davesaz]

Town (unordered)
davesaz
Akane and Nebby
Nero Cain
Yuri
MathBlade
Vecna
Brian Skies
nancy

Townish
Creature
Caesar Wills It

Not sorted
Leonshade
Elbirn
ssbm_Kyouko
Maxous
PeregrineV
Sondam
NoticeMeSenpai

Scum
Lil Uzi Vert
Albert B. Rampage

VOTE: ABR

[davesaz]

Making a note at bottom of 247: why did ssbm-kuyoko wagon take off all of a sudden?

[davesaz]

I wish to nominate Caesar for FUN MVP for reinjecting fun into this game.

Second!

[davesaz]

IDK, I still feel like your "ABR ruined the Yuri wagon!" was p manipulative and thus scummy. Dave and whomever else coming to your defense "well we thought the same thing!) could be scum trying to invalidate my case/defend you.

A quick perusal of any of my scum games would reveal that I jump ship at the first sign of trouble. Defending would not be my thing.
Granted that's self meta and I don't think you're wrong to be suspicious. If you weren't, I might consider it a scumtell.

[davesaz]

What do you consider to be a scumtell this game? You just seem to be floating and doing nothing.

Floating -> drowning and you'd be a little closer to the truth.
My early game is typically shit anyway. Don't give me crap about almost 6500 posts not being early -- it's still d2 and my strength comes with lots of flips.

[davesaz]

Not Voting (3):

PeregrineV, Elbirn, Akane and Nebby

I had to go a long way back in PeregrineV's ISO to find a read of any kind, and it's basically a "willing to lynch" list. What's up with that?

This is an invisible L-1 vote.
ABR should claim.
-Nebby

Any special reason you don't make it a real L-1 vote?

[davesaz]

Elbirn doesn't have much in the way of reads either. Sure, moving and didn't have internet, prod dodge and all that, but what about before the move?

[davesaz]

Hey Dave, what happened to your methodical practise of sorting people?

What are you looking for to determine the allignment of these players atm?

Their reads / votes.

What you're seeing is me just barely awake when I finally get enough time that MS rises to the top of my priorities. Yesterday it was trying to get to work earlier than normal, a full day of meetings, racing across town to judge a science fair, a scout meeting, and grocery shopping. I got home from shopping about an hour after the prod.

[davesaz]

Feeling better about my vote decision.

I would feel a lot better about you if you would use either multiple clauses or multiple sentences in your posts.
Please explain

why

you're feeling better. A lot happens and you make a comment like this and we're not sure which specific thing(s) you're finding AI and why.
Just quoting the thing(s) you're commenting on would be enormous.

[davesaz]

Can you point to things they've posted that tell you that?

[davesaz]

Any special reason you don't make it a real L-1 vote?

To prevent a lolhammer. Also this gives me the feeling he has something to claim:

Don't lynch me without a claim.

-Nebby

What could he claim that would be more AI than his behavior?

Who do you see hammering? Is this a wagon that seems very easy to assemble? If someone did hammer would that increase the available info? If he's L-1 for a time and nobody hammers does it increase info?

[davesaz]

I don't think that changes anything. Scum would gladly pick that to avoid getting vigged, plus they have the bonus of being able to be guaranteed a vig shot gets redirected to someone not on their team.

[davesaz]

Reminder of these questions.

Any special reason you don't make it a real L-1 vote?

To prevent a lolhammer. Also this gives me the feeling he has something to claim:

Don't lynch me without a claim.

-Nebby

What could he claim that would be more AI than his behavior?

Who do you see hammering? Is this a wagon that seems very easy to assemble? If someone did hammer would that increase the available info? If he's L-1 for a time and nobody hammers does it increase info?

Amendment to 1st question: did you guess right? What about that as a claim did you think would be AI?

[davesaz]

Oh hi dave. How are you dave?

A. He had one and I wanted to see it, but I was guessing Zeus, Gardens, or Mausoleum if he even had one.
B. I honestly don't know how to answer this. Why are you even asking this? Seems to be leading nowhere to me.
C. I'm not understanding what you're getting at.
D. Suuuuuuuuure...
E. Suuuuuuuuure...
D. I think it's AI because I just don't find it believable that ABR built Zeus.

Why are you asking this? Just seems like this line of questioning is leading nowhere to me.
-Nebby

B -- you said you were worried about someone lolhammering. Who exactly did you think might do this?
C -- in your opinion, is ABR an easy wagon or a hard one? No resistance or lots?
D/E -- I think that town would want to have a L-1 there, if for no other reason than to see who avoids it and/or who hammers it. Why did you want to avoid a L-1 given the obvious advantages of reaching it?

[davesaz]

I have noticed that day started, would have voted Nay, must do a hard reset which is gonna be really painful with more than 7000 posts to deal with.

[davesaz]

This is partly why I think Dave is distancing himself from Creature

Don't give me "activity"

Creature is actively trying to change that meta of his.

Activity was my previous townread on you, though activity isn't AI anymore for you.

This is misdirection. Fro99er's comment is about

Creature's meta

. Creature's response is about

his Fro99er read

.

A quick scan of Creature's ISO shows lots of

opinions

but next to no

reasons

.
VOTE: Creature
This is scum. I can't tell if he's scum with Yuri trying to derail, or just scum who got caught in a horrible opinion shift.

My vote may still be for hire to complete the Yuri wagon, after I analyze that slot to find out if it's really scum or not.

I continue to think Creature could be scum trying to act town, but it might just be a playstyle thing. I'm willing to listen to townreads for now.
UNVOTE:

Dave has an okay push on Creature, but when he unvotes, he postures around the Creature slot and overall just jumps off of it for a really bad reason.

I also think about him attacking me for not putting ABR at L-1, the questions he was asking me there just sorta seem like they were dead ends and really vague and not really going anywhere.
This is the dave part to Creature and Dave being on the same team.

My questions there only had meaning assuming I was right about ABR being scum. If he had been scum, I was all over your slot for toying with the bus. That "virtual L-1" thing is a scumclaim if the wagon flips scum.

ABR flipping town means a whole bunch of stuff is wrong.

[davesaz]

Page 289. Is there an Aslan in this game? I don't remember seeing one in the player list. Don't remember a hydra of that name either.

[davesaz]

Yo fellow Civilized people -- Pay attention to the people who think I'm a convenient mislynch.

[davesaz]

While I happen to also think that, imagine a world where Creature hyperposts as scum specifically because it's a pattern that everyone will assume must be town.

It bugs me enormously that Creature can post BS all day with impunity, and people still are incapable of picking up that me saying I don't have a clue who is scum is infinitesimally close to a <banned tactic>.

[davesaz]

Your problem isn't on what you're doing, it's on what you're not doing.

It's

how

i'm not doing what I'm not doing that is the dead giveaway. If I'm totally upfront about saying I don't know who is scum, I'm being honest. What alignment is honest?

[davesaz]

So nancy, imagine I've just shown up and read 7395. Who is his, and what wagon does he need to join?

[davesaz]

Yay, an hour or so to actually study this game and try to get somewhere with it.

Nancy gets a strong town read during the last 6 or so pages of catchup. I noticed an inaccuracy -- I did not pass up a hammer given I was already on the wagon.
Off to look up stuff...

[davesaz]

One of the things that nancy did piqued my interest. What do I get from compare/combine flipped town
reads with reads of players I think are strong town reads?
Note: this is new, so yeah you haven't seen me do it this way before...

Is anyone bothering to analyze ABR's reads from before he got ran up and stopped talking?

Town: Yuri,

Spiffeh

nancy, davesaz, Maxou, Sondam and Nero.
PV: He's actually doing stuff in this game, it's good. Townlean.
ssbm, Caesar, Elbirn: not enough posts.
Creature, Leon: IDK
NoticeMeSenpai: I don't like his post calling A+N town based on irrelevant meta.
Scum: Vecnar, LUV,

A+N

Alisae

Aslan

Nero Cain

Yuri

MathBlade

Leonshade

Elbirn

Creature

Brian Skies

Caesar Wills It

Lil Uzi Vert

Vecna

ssbm_Kyouko

davesaz

Maxous

Sondam

NoticeMeSenpai

Nancy reorganized
Aslan, Yuri, MathBlade, Creature, Brian Skies, Caesar Wills It, Lil Uzi Vert, ssbm_Kyouko, NoticeMeSenpai
Nero Cain, davesaz, Sondam
Leonshade, Elbirn, Vecna, Maxous
(missing - PeregrineV)

Additive reads with emphasis on TR's
TR=4; Null or not mentioned=2; SR=1

Yuri 4+4
nancy 4+4
dave 4+2
Maxous 4+1
Sondam 4+2
Nero 4+2
PV 3+2
Creature 2+4
Leon 2+1
NoticeMeSenpai 2+4
Vecna 1+1
LUV 1+4
Math 2+4
Caesar 2+4
ssbm 2+4
Alisae 1+4
Brian Skies 2+4

ABR + {nancy + Fro99er} totals
nancy, Yuri
dave, Sondam, Nero, Creature, NoticeMeSenpai, Math, Caesar, ssbm, Brian Skies
Maxous, PV, LUV, Alisae
Leon
Vecna

To do: compare with more people I think are town, and with the so-far bottom of the list...
* Nero, Creature reads lists
* Leon, Vecna reads lists

[davesaz]

Lol what the hell Dave?

I gotta get a handle on it somehow...

FTR davesaz I'm willing to bet my game life that Aslan is Town here.

He's on your town list but not ABR's. Now I want to see what adding in Creature's and Nero's lists do.

[davesaz]

That's if I can actually get a sensible list out of Creature btw.

[davesaz]

In reply to 7728 that's pretty darn close to what I'd have (easy for me to say but hard to prove with previous posts...)

I wouldn't lock NoticeMeSenpai, and would cross off Nero Cain instead. However I don't remember if I've seen Nero as scum and it would be the weakest of my strikethroughs.
In red I'd bold Elbirn and italic Leonshade.

Is Sondam Gerry+Maria? I can read Maria's scum but would need to see reaction to a wagon. Gerry I've only seen once and the most important thing I remember is extremely unreliable reads. If I've transposed a hydra then attribute this line to the correct one. (posting in the quick box and don't want to have to save and restore this post to look up the hydra names lol) In either case I'd have to study because that slot's posting is not one that I have "loaded into memory".

[davesaz]

Never before have i seen anywhere near this level of particilation and engagement from davesaz. Ive had two very recent games with him as town, and he never did stuff like this.

Which is surprising me quite a bit. He even just becomes lynchbait as town and barely puts up a fight while hes getting lynched due to a redirected guilty as town, but here he comes out and does this.

Not gonna say he cant suddenly do this as town with a lot more availlable time, but the difference in involvement is a major trendbreak.

My immediately preceding post said I had a spare hour.
But what's really WTF about this post is that I have only 59 posts before this one which may be the lowest player in the game, and you cast shade because I manage to put together a good post using that hour?

[davesaz]

Oh, and "barely put up a fight" in Code Geass? I didn't post at all day 6 because it happened while I was unavailable.
Day 5 I said your information was incorrect (which it was).
Day 6 here's the timeline.
11:30 ish - drives to work
12:00 ish - meetings start
Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:27 pm It's now Day 6 !
Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:19 pm It's now Night 6!
4:00 ish - meetings end

As much as I like shade in RL (being in Arizona where shade can save you) I'm not liking it much here.

Back to work I go.

[davesaz]

If you have time MathBlade, please drop a current rainbow.
If you don't, please do the next chance you get. Thanks in advance.

[davesaz]

Maxous wagon scares the shit out of me because it is all people I townread or buddying and it is on someone I gutread as Town.
Sondam a townread of mine has three scumreads and a IMHO derptown.

If I had to pick a top wagon I would go with Maxous but what I really want is some pressure on Vecna doe ABR to get clarity of Vecna's alignment.

Don't even start.
Y'all pushed through 2 wagons I argued against.
Lynch people on the damn mislynches

Gee, wonder if I've ever seen scum argue against mislynches to try to get town cred?

[davesaz]

Nancy's VCA concludes she needs to push the guy that wasn't on either mislynch.

Scum actually tend to shy away from mislynches.

For accuracy sake -- you can

usually

find scum both on and off the average mislynch. Sometimes all on, sometimes all off, but usually a mix.

[davesaz]

Bottom of 319, way behind again.

[davesaz]

Oh great, posting my last catchup reset my page counter, and this one will too. Nearly 50 pages to read, or I can just jump to the last 5 or so to see what's up.
But I'm going out, my daughter's glasses are ready to pick up.

[davesaz]

EBWOP - catchup reminder of where I was post.

[davesaz]

In response to the posts / votes following this:

But I'm going out, my daughter's glasses are ready to pick up.

I

never

lie about RL.

It's still day so I assume I haven't been lynched. Congratulations, you're managed to keep civilization going.

In separate news,

it is bedtime

, tomorrow I have work, a 504 meeting for my son, my daughter's 16th birthday.
You can expect serious work from me if I survive to get a wonder and useful results, or about day 5 if not.
Meanwhile, chill pills all around. Thanks!

[davesaz]

In response to the posts / votes following this:

But I'm going out, my daughter's glasses are ready to pick up.

I

never

lie about RL.

It's still day so I assume I haven't been lynched. Congratulations, you're managed to keep civilization going.

In separate news,

it is bedtime

, tomorrow I have work, a 504 meeting for my son, my daughter's 16th birthday.
You can expect serious work from me if I survive to get a wonder and useful results, or about day 5 if not.
Meanwhile, chill pills all around. Thanks!

Just because you dont lie about reallife dont make you town.

As town you never actually mention your reallife, and you dont care at all whether people know why youre afk.

Have all our previous games been during the holidays when I'm on vacation from work and the kids are out of school?

[davesaz]

viewtopic.php?p=8816739#p8816739
viewtopic.php?p=8774803#p8774803

[davesaz]

Since chances are you'll L-1 me during my son's 504 meeting. Town, no wonder. Fuck off.

[davesaz]

No bid (playing for the high priority on a good one). Kill the scum who push the lurker.

[davesaz]

@town -- look for manipulators. Does anyone remember how to play mafia here?

[davesaz]

TBH I still probably won't be able to keep up for a couple game days. But really, my lack of time should not result in you taking the easy and unproductive route.

[davesaz]

To be fair, I pay close attention to mechanics as both alignments. I'm salty atm because I've been trying to sandbag (not pick at all) to get a good wonder (already revealed above). And the game is so fast that keeping up is hopeless with my RL situation till the player list is cut in half.

[davesaz]

Any possible vig abilities in play?
Any possible protective or pseudo-protective (RB, JK)?
If either of the above is true, then it is possible that PV could be scum.

The only kind of player who *should* want treestump is the type who are going to post their ass off after death. A player not in that playstyle type taking it is very questionable to me.

[davesaz]

EBWOP - if both of the above are possible.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure why PV is a topic of conversation. Not like we can lynch him, right? At most it's associatives and knowing whether to trust his reads. I only wanted to dispel the notion that his alignment is confirmed by "scum wouldn't" logic.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure why PV is a topic of conversation. Not like we can lynch him, right? At most it's associatives and knowing whether to trust his reads. I only wanted to dispel the notion that his alignment is confirmed by "scum wouldn't" logic.

VOTE: MathBlade

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

I started writing a rant about 17 pages then realized that my eyes are blurry and it's only 7. (bottom of 380 is where I am)
Still that's probably a good half hour if I bothered to closely read it and an hour if I have to think about anything or do research. Maybe 5 minute chunks of time available, if I'm lucky. We'll see if the rate is slow enough to make progress.
And... almost a page while I wrote a paragraph. Good luck with that.

[davesaz]

Btw Mathblade, ive read your gistou link and ill agree with your assesment that I was most likely wrong on Davesaz and shouldve had a scum game to compare it with.

Thank you for most likely saving us from a mislynch.

You should have been able to compare this to Code Geass. I made a big push on Titus there when I had something to actually go on, and did next to nothing when I didn't. But I'll accept that you woke up.

[davesaz]

Why can't we come into an agrément?

Because someone active must be scum. Probably multiple scum pushing different town so that town can't coalesce.
Note, I'm not saying the most active, but people active enough to get things split up.

[davesaz]

Wagons should happen.

We should prioritize who's not trying to push any wagon, just lowhanging...

FWIW, I find Creature's concern over lack of a good wagon to be very town. I continue to strongly dislike the unwillingness to pick someone scummy and stay there, but it seems to be playstyle.

Pedit: volume continues, multiple pedits to post, but with lack of wagon I guess it's ok.

[davesaz]

I proposed no lynch because any death will give us information. Whereas the lynches we were proposing earlier were essentially policy lynches and you can't really analyze those.

Are you seriously proposing no lynch? Or are you saying there is nobody you're willing to push? And the 2 halves of the 1st sentence make no sense:

"I proposed no lynch (no death) because any death will give us information" -- so you want no information?
Scumslip? I have occasionally typed what I was really feeling, when it was not what I actually wanted to say.

[davesaz]

Pretty much lynching a lurker tells us nothing.

Conceptually right direction but factually incorrect. Lynching a lurker tells us who is willing to lynch a lurker, but that information is ineffective because it's very hard to distinguish town who think the lurker may be scum from scum rejoicing in the ability to mislynch someone.

Pedit: Creature, I'm just now getting to the end of catching up. You're really one to talk with the whole sheeping thing. You're willing to join any wagon but I don't think I've seen you be the first to push and vote someone yet this game (save perhaps your RVS if any). Caveat, I have not put the dozens of hours into reading that would have been necessary to see and remember every vote, but still...

Pedit2: What you usually find out from NK is who scum think they can kill without interference and either without making NKA obvious or with framing someone.

Pedit3: Can someone give me a synopsis on Sondam?

[davesaz]

You may think you're the main pusher of saying there needs to be a push, but I'd like to see some reasons, not just reactions.

[davesaz]

Only 7 pages since the last VC. I need to drive to work so can't do this myself, but it should not be difficult to get a handle on it.

[davesaz]

Damn, resolution phase and my catchup is 15 pages already.
On page 398, Creature

[davesaz]

Their lynch was inevitable anyway.

It's shit like this that makes me think a doc saved the NK and you're waiting until you can pick someone to mislynch here. It has been said multiple times the lynch was not inevitable and hell the Sondam lynch was a flash wagon. People didn't want to vote Nero because (OH YEAH NO ONE GAVE A REASON EXCEPT TOWN READ) and then literally recycled a push of "because MariaR" from the beginning of the day.

Kill was probably saved by a doc until Creature starts acting like I expect Town!Creature to.

I'm considering the possibility

Math, what do you think of Maxous?

[davesaz]

@Vecna: I didn't forget, they were just the first thing to come to mind.

Ali, Dave, Ceasar, and Math are perfect candidates for that Wonder.

I missed something, what's this about?

[davesaz]

I'm disturbed by the amount of people who have completely ignored Vecna's claim.

Figuring out what you're talking about would take scanning a 5 page iso.

[davesaz]

Disgustingly light, I know, but it's what I have.

davesaz
Vecna (matches to Code Geass)
MathBlade (reads and actions make sense to me)
Creature (I doubt he could pull this off as scum)
Maxous (kinda the opposite of Creature, and I've seen him be very terse as town)
-- large gap --
Brian Skies
Caesar Wills It
Nero Cain (kinda probing at the kind of things that I usually expect)
-- small gap -- for the most part I don't have much experience reading people below this line
Alisae
nancy
CloudKicker
-- small gap --
Lil Uzi Vert
NoticeMeSenpai
KidAmn (can't remember which slot this is so this could be hilariously wrong)
Leonshade
Gorkington (can't remember which slot this is so this could be hilariously wrong)

[davesaz]

Disgustingly light, I know, but it's what I have.

davesaz
Vecna (matches to Code Geass)
MathBlade (reads and actions make sense to me)
Creature (I doubt he could pull this off as scum)
Maxous (kinda the opposite of Creature, and I've seen him be very terse as town)
-- large gap --
Brian Skies
Caesar Wills It
Nero Cain (kinda probing at the kind of things that I usually expect)
-- small gap -- for the most part I don't have much experience reading people below this line
Alisae
nancy
CloudKicker
-- small gap --
Lil Uzi Vert
NoticeMeSenpai
KidAmn (can't remember which slot this is so this could be hilariously wrong)
Leonshade
Gorkington (can't remember which slot this is so this could be hilariously wrong)

Please expand on this as my birthday present <3
I disagree with some high level reads of yours and as a townread of mine I'd like to sync up on those and get to the same page so maybe there's some kind of synergy.

Wanna specify which ones? It's a long list.

[davesaz]

I have flipped my read on Max. Talk about that one Dave.

From what to what? In the meantime I'll gather a reference or two.

[davesaz]

Maxous feels very similar to PYP Double Deck. (I hope that prebuilt ISO link works, first time trying that)

[davesaz]

I have flipped my read on Max. Talk about that one Dave.

Umm, I don't see your read flipping recently. I think an explanation might be in order.

[davesaz]

Based on your having claimed to have not built one, why shouldn't we want you to prove that claim?

[davesaz]

I'm also kinda in the same view that its funny that scum would send Gork to do a kill. And Gork being the leading wagon when Creature claimed seems potentially opportunistic.

Gork as the rb target makes sense from Creature's reads. He had a preexisting scumread on the slot and town RB will obviously target scumreads.

Don't know why you'd think it funny that scum team would choose Gork to do the kill. I only skimmed the wonder list to verify the statement that there are 2 docs, but I don't remember seeing anything like a watcher or tracker that hasn't already flipped. I find this line of WIFOM hard to follow though. When we have a scummy player apparently caught by a townie looking PR, I think we act on it unless something better comes along.

VOTE: Gork

[davesaz]

I am playing different from PYP.
I think Dave's read on me is completely made up
VOTE: Davesaz

If I'm wrong about you being town, then you and creature are both confscum.
Consider that a bit.

[davesaz]

My approach to this game has been far more apathetic to PYP where I was invested in driving lynches.
I don't know what similarities you're seeing

I didn't see that as being consistent throughout PYP and I see the less invested time periods of PYP as being similar to here.
It's more a type of post thing vs. an effort thing.
In both cases I don't see you reaching to fit square pegs into round holes.

[davesaz]

I must be in your must live pile. I even have a feeling that Creature and Maxous are the same alignment. It would be odd if they weren't.

[davesaz]

RC, I don't remember did you case Nero or just come in and say he's scum?
And 2nd the motion on Vecna's question.

[davesaz]

RC, I don't remember did you case Nero or just come in and say he's scum?

[davesaz]

Notice how as soon as I'm in the scum brigade starts throwing their votes around and trying to develop new wagons while not actually addressing that wagon?

That's not a coincidence.

Whose this scum brigade?

[davesaz]

Wait what?
@kidamn: why are you looking at Leon-Creature links in the first place?
Like

how did you notice

or whatever?
That's just so random..what was your thought process there?

The underlined is an interesting word choice, care to explain that?

[davesaz]

I know reading people is often about the little stuff, but why the hyper focus?

[davesaz]

I still don't get how RC parachutes in and starts beating on Nero Cain.
He might be right, and I might agree with it if I understood it, but I don't think he's answered my questions.

[davesaz]

At bottom of 490, got an appointment to go to.
VOTE: RC

[davesaz]

I would not choose a neighborizer because I suck in hoods.

[davesaz]

Given 2 choices, Fro99er and Vecna.

[davesaz]

RadiantCowbells (4): nancy, Nero Cain, Vecna, davesaz

This is at least 2 scum. possibly 3.

You were asked for a case.

[davesaz]

And how is being more egotistical going to solve the problem RC? That's literally what've you been since you subbed in which is why I said you aren't what the gamestate needed.

No, this gamestate doesn't need a leader. There's 5 people trying to play town leader and half are scum and the other half are shit. The game needs someone with competent reads.

If you're going to propose yourself as the competent one then you're going to have to explain things and not just shout about it.
I'm getting

really

tired of asking for this.

[davesaz]

I really don't know what to think of RC's steadfast refusal to even notice my requests for a case, much less act on them.
I have even less clue of what to think of nobody else paying any attention to them.

[davesaz]

I'm present and see the hammer opportunity. Any remaining discussion needed?

[davesaz]

If Leon flips town I think we should look at the people who wanted me to hammer immediately.

[davesaz]

davesaz you don't get to be on a vanity wagon here. Put Leonshade to L-1 or KidAmn to L-2. This day isn't ending until you take a fucking stance.

I was fishing with my son at time of this post. In case it matters in the 10 pages of reading...

[davesaz]

VOTE: KidAmn

l-1

[davesaz]

Why would you want to kill me?

[davesaz]

Well that's interesting. I need to ask the mod a couple questions.

[davesaz]

Before I claim targets, I think I'll reveal that I got

no result

.
Which means some kind of shenanigans, just not sure exactly what.

[davesaz]

So, shall we have a guessing game? Who did Dave try to parity cop?

[davesaz]

How is a worst case of 5 scum in 15 mylo?

[davesaz]

Davesaz, are you waiting for instructions in the scumchat or something?

Cmon man, out those targets already.

I'm waiting to see what my targets say, in particular if they guess they were targets. I think there are now 8 pages I haven't read, and it's dinner time.

[davesaz]

I don't think a Nero / Vecna / RC / Math team could be any worse for town that whatever the scum team really is.
If they're all 4 town, scum are freakin' geniuses for not killing any of them.

[davesaz]

That doesn't parse right, but you should be able to get my drift.

[davesaz]

I don't think a Nero / Vecna / RC / Math team could be any worse for town that whatever the scum team really is.
If they're all 4 town, scum are freakin' geniuses for not killing any of them.

Stroking your own ego here?

Nope, I'm terrible.

[davesaz]

On 576: so many people saying

X can't be scum with Y

. Over reliance on that is what loses games for town, because you POE down away people who would be considered for scum if you look at their motivation and ignore the thoughts that they can't be scum with anyone else.

[davesaz]

Leonshade is

mathematically not scum

(need to double check this)

This is a fallacy. There is no such thing as mathematically (as in numerically) not scum. Logic in the form of true PR results can rule someone out perhaps, but numbers can't.

[davesaz]

Those three votes came on very quickly from the end.
So in essence all town wagon.

Scum can be online and watching the vote and each act independently. You're assuming they had to plan a time in advance which is just not true at all. The fact that you're unwilling to consider any of them because they couldn't have orchestrated it in daychat is exactly the reason they could get away with doing it haphazardly. Besides that, if even 1 of the last 3 are scum then you're wrong about the scumteam has to be the 1st 3, it doesn't need to be the 1st 3 or the last but no mixtures. This way of doing VCA is helpful but it is not enough to rule people out.

[davesaz]

@Dave-

it totally looks like you are ignoring me.

Umm, I'm still reading.

[davesaz]

Possible ways to get no result:

Roleblock or JK me (see note below on JK)
One of my targets is ascetic
One of my targets was JK'd (is this even in the game? I don't know it's just one of the standard roles that can affect mine)
My targeting was redirected to an ascetic.
My targeting was redirected to someone I had already targeted.

Creature could be scum if:
Scum correctly predicted that Creature would be one of the targets and redirected it to town. I consider this to be very unlikely, so unlikely that I'm taking my result as a conftown on Creature.

What's really going to piss me off is if Creature RB'd me. He was acting like he didn't believe my claim.

[davesaz]

We don't need docs to claim. Scum could be driving a massclaim to find the docs because they still need that in order to be able to kill me.

[davesaz]

Did anyone have an off reaction to RC's claim?

[davesaz]

@pv I'm sure you are quite capable of reading them and figuring that out yourself.

[davesaz]

Nothing in ancient
Nothing in classical
In Medieval: Alhambra to block, Great Wall for ascetic, Hagia Sophia for redirect
In Renaissance: Leaning Tower to block

[davesaz]

Assuming claims are true

Creature RB (Alhambra)
Unknown scum RB (Leaning Tower, and they would need to have received it that EOD)
Vecna scum redirect to the ascetic (look for odd reactions to RC claim)
One of my targets is ascetic

[davesaz]

People who expect me to have targeted them are also suspect.

[davesaz]

If it really is mylo I don't want a rush to judgment, and I still think that discussion on this without knowing my targets is beneficial. Logic is the one thing I'm really good at so give me this.

[davesaz]

If scum had both redirect and ascetic, redirecting me onto ascetic would be questionable at best, provided they are thinking about the ramifications. The only thing that could gain them is a 50/50 with the two people I thought were targeted. Which implies it probably wasn't a redirect unless they don't know who has the ascetic.

[davesaz]

With the night results, I suspect one of the vigs and perhaps both were not taken.
No double kills (unless I've forgotten which at 55 is sadly a possibility), and docs would need to be unnaturally accurate to save so often. Or the obvtown are actually town and scum didn't use that to kill elsewhere (which means subpar scum IMO).
Or perhaps town have them and decided not to use until we have multiple caught scum.

[davesaz]

Don't use the mod's color.
Why am I pink?
I actually previously claimed what I tried to get N1 and N2, while folks were trying to wagon me. Nothing, because I didn't like the available wonders and was saving it up for priority.

[davesaz]

I think claimed targets from town vigs (if any) might break the game open. But I think they should hold off until more town agree with my idea.

[davesaz]

RC claimed the ascetic / BP thing.

[davesaz]

It would help if you identified what you updated somehow.

Thoughts on whether vig shot claims would help? I'm concerned that valuable info is out there but there is a tradeoff with keeping it from being a full massclaim so that scum still have to guess their kills.

[davesaz]

Off to work, over/under on number of pages while I'm there is 12.

[davesaz]

Off to work, over/under on number of pages while I'm there is 12.

Over, definitely over. 14 pages and I'm just checking in while on break. lol

Pedit: and at least 3 previews to post a 1-liner.

[davesaz]

Page 601:

@Vecna, you targeted nancy and Tracker, and redirected to whom?

[davesaz]

Page 604:

@MOD, so a player with Hagia Sophia could target a player and Chichen Itza, and cause the result to be "No Result"? !!!

[davesaz]

My fullclaim is:

Spiffeh didn't try to build a wonder and didn't no build D1 (no priority)
Ditto by me D2 (no priority)
I tried for parity cop D3
I tried for neighborhood wonder D4

Like, this is the claim? Wheres the lie? I think youre misinterpreting her words somehow.

going for broke, I think means trying without priority as a hail mary.

She is revising her claim that was on March 28th

You do realize that the 1st post you quoted (going for broke on neighborhood wonder) was talking about the d4 try, right?
Pedit: if she tried on d3 and failed, she would have had no priority d4. Which means going for broke. Try learning how to parse English.

[davesaz]

All caught up. Really want to see mod's answer on my question, as a fabricated "no result" would serve as an attempt to frame 3 players, my 2 targets and the claimed RB.

[davesaz]

Even if unsuccessful as a framing attempt that would also effectively protect at least one of the targets and perhaps both.
Hell of a move for scum, and it's a really nice theory that nancy would take Red Fort but quite a stretch -- the kind that scum take.

Pedit: there were plenty of "suggestions" on who to target, and in fact at least one threat in that regard.

[davesaz]

as a fabricated "no result" would serve as an attempt to frame 3 players, my 2 targets and the claimed RB.

Why is it not keeping you from getting reads?

Some people knee jerk their reads. I act like my avatar.

[davesaz]

nancy lied so yay three even more obvious scum.

*sigh*

No, you're a moron who can't read what nancy wrote properly.

I happen to think she's scum anyway.

[davesaz]

Like the go for broke to me is a lie based on how I learned the phrase. Guess it means something else.

Oh, sorry about the comment I made. I have 4 personal connections to people in your situation.

[davesaz]

Why doesn't it fit with Nero?

Davesaz isn't voting Nero
Nero did their best to avoid voting Leon yesterday

Cloud would definitely be in there

Hmmm yeah, allthough to be fair he still has to out his targets of his wonder. The fact he's still waiting with that is kind of annoying, and might just be to wait out to push for their preferred lynch.

THE TOWN DEMANDS ANSWERS. DAVESAZ, REVEAL YOUR TARGETS. NO MORE DELAYING.

I don't know what time this was posted, but I got up at 7:30, went to the doctor office at 8:15, got to work at 9:15, and it's now 10:35 and I'm reviewing the thread while listening to a meeting.

I will decide when I reveal, nobody else tells me what to do. Ever. Especially when all of the people asking me to do it are people I'm scumreading!

Creature has not revealed a target. Why not?

Aside from that I have seen what I needed to see. I guess it doesn't matter what Creature did.

Targets =

nancy, Nero

[davesaz]

I'm at the bottom of page 628. Someone mentioned PyP where I had amassed a full poker hand without anyone even knowing until someone hinted at it the day before scum killed me. That's what I do, accumulate info and ways of getting info. My early days suck and I don't give many reads. When I survive to late game and have info then town might win. Not saying this for ego, I don't really care what y'all think of me. What I don't like are the other egos that people seem to fawn over. Math and Vecna cutting a deal on driving who constructs what, RC yelling at people to vote Nero, etc. How do we know they're all town, or in fact if any of them are town? Them saying they're town and people townreading them makes it likely but not certain.

I think I might want to have a say...

[davesaz]

LOL -- caught up, saw the questions about assertiveness, then got to my post where I repeat the same thing I always say -- I'm shit without data and killer with it, so of course I wasn't assertive earlier in the game.

[davesaz]

I visited Nancy, with the IF being a tracker visit, which cannot happen anymore.

I thought the whole point of you claiming to visit Nancy was to get a game breaking event of basically catching scum trying to shoot her so you targeted her and a dead tracker. You are going to have to explain this to me like I'm 2 or just requote your stuffs.

I got the impression that Vecna said he did what he did to get proof that Creature is town and RB'd him. None of it logically makes sense. It will be interesting reading the next 17 pages to see if this has been answered, and how. It's fun replying inline with catchups this way, I might change to doing it this way all the time.

[davesaz]

Scum gets punished by having someone's alignment revealed (which is always pro-town).

This is true, but only if town has the wonder and hasn't taken the anti-town stance of revealing it unnecessarily.

[davesaz]

I will have a neighborhood one way or another, because I am terrible without it and my reads are out of whack, hence I need neighborhood to catch scum. You know this too. You want me to give you scum?

Then let me have someone to tell me what to do who isn't scum themselves and you shall have it.

- Akane

What about this? Do you think A&N were going for neighborizer here?

Yes but read the last sentence of that paragraph.

Sounds exactly like "give me a neighborhood to talk to someone to tell me what to do".

I have something like 10+ pages to read?

[davesaz]

-Snipped-

Was there any point in quoting a bunch of VC's and not saying anything about them?

[davesaz]

I feel like everyone is too small to admit they could be wrong on town reads. Its pretty pathetic.

Several times I've had a post written saying that at least one of the "universal town" must be scum, but I don't think I've posted many of them because they were non-topical by the time I got through the pedits. RC makes a good candidate, except that I've seen him making cases when he's scum and he isn't doing it here. I don't think it's people being too "small" though (interpreted as being unable to admit they're wrong), I think it's being too "big" (as in too big headed to allow the possibility).

[davesaz]

Read when he gave his reasoning and how fast he did it. Genuine as hell.

If scum he had all night + partners to plan ahead.

[davesaz]

I've read and seen RC wreck scum teams even after dragging a town into chaos for the first couple of days.

Check out scum RC (as Prince Lyon) in Open 675 which just ended.

[davesaz]

If Nero Cain is scum then scum clearly did not want Sciences this points towards Drixx being town.

From that VC it doesn't look like scum wanted either one, and it doesn't matter what you color Nero.

[davesaz]

Each night, you may target a player.

If you are killed during the night

, that player's alignment will be immediately publicly revealed.

@LUV that's 4.

One for Nero Town one for Nero scum and one for each wonder.

Everyone has to be held accountable else you can lie and say you got the other one when no one has it.

You have to pick. There cannot be a way for anyone to lie here. Being able to choose between two wonders means you can lie.

Except you gave RC choices all over the place. I scumread RC, therefore I object.

[davesaz]

There's no world in which scum block you over davesaz tonight. Blocking you would out davesaz and Creature as scum.

That's a big hole as someone widely townread but scum could take vig, claim to shoot math, which implies creature blocked me or I lied, and town loses.

[davesaz]

VOTE: RC

[davesaz]

Buenas noches.

[davesaz]

Page 604:

@MOD, so a player with Hagia Sophia could target a player and Chichen Itza, and cause the result to be "No Result"? !!!

Don't think this was answered.

[davesaz]

Hi davesaz. I know RC's meta better than nearly anyone except Postie. He's not scum. Bye.

Why would I care about what a scumread thinks about RC's alignment?

RC scumreading me is even more absurd.

[davesaz]

The most accurate answer is, I don't see a case on Nero. RC could be right, or scum trying to strongarm. Nero could be scum, or he's town asking the exact same question I am. Vecna and you are both creating plans which could be the straw that breaks either scum or town's back.

1 or 2 scum in Nero, Math, Vecna, RC. I've said it before and I'm saying it again for posterity.

[davesaz]

^ is me being obvtown yet again.

[davesaz]

If you're all town, you all need to take a breath and let a guy think for a change.

[davesaz]

At the bottom of 700 with 8 to go. (One of the reasons I make these notes is to not miss a page or six if I have to go mobile)

[davesaz]

On a completely different topic, I had nailed RC from the start of replace-in for failing to explain a single thing about the Nero push. Hard to say how many dominoes fall if anyone actually listens to me. And I went out voting him. My fellow townies should remember this.

[davesaz]

I don't see any basis for thinking bad of scum here. They did a great job exploiting all of town's weaknesses.

[davesaz]

Damn, 4 pedits and it's postgame. The rate in this thread is astounding.
Is there a record for longest thread including the postgame?

[davesaz]

Even if we did that, it wouldn't have been enough RC. People were just pocketed so hard.

Misread Kyouko but read Cloud right.
Read Brain right
Caught Notice early and Ceasar based on logic.
Misread Elbrin, Gin, and Gork.

The problem is I just don't have the will to try to lead and just get frustrated when people don't see things.

I see the constant 'lol' every 2-3 posts and can't take you seriously.

[davesaz]

That was meant to be constructive, not mean.

[davesaz]

I should have done more but we had multiple town with such completely different stances on the potential scum that it was impossible to tell which was the good one. I felt that adding even more contrary views would just make it worse.