Undertale Mafia: Friends & Corpses [GAME OVER]

[Leonshade]

Good lord the thread explosion.

@Skullduggery: I will be on V/LA from the 11th to the 16th of October, that's Tuesday to Sunday.

[Leonshade]

Sly seems like lynchbait, but I'm into this zakk wagon.

VOTE: zakk

[Leonshade]

In my last finished game with Gamma, I had a strong townread on him. I'm not liking his posts in this game.

Sly seems like lynchbait, but I'm into this zakk wagon.

VOTE: zakk

Enlighten us, what do you like about it?

I don't have much to add to what has already been brought up about him, his early play looks like he was feigning scumhunting and his reactions to the wagon on him are bad. I also feel good about some of the players pushing the wagon.

[Leonshade]

I can confirm that a read through Sly's ISO didn't help me figure out what Giga's talking about.

[Leonshade]

I see the case for a bus with Gamma, but not with Accountant.

[Leonshade]

Oh, zakk is town.

VOTE: Gamma

Reads & more later.

[Leonshade]

null because inactive

maxous

town

gamma emerald

Maxous might not have a high post count, but he certainly hasn't been inactive.

Explain your TR on Gamma.

[Leonshade]

Last post(s) before V/LA, so here's where my reads stand:

Scum

Gamma Emerald - As I've said before, I had a strong townread on Gamma in a previous game, whereas I really don't like him in this game. I don't like his defensiveness and his scumhunting doesn't look genuine to me.
Giga - A lot has been said about Giga, and I don't have the time to put too much time & effort into this post, so I'll just say that there's a lot Giga has done that I read as scummy (Magna's catch-up posts especially reminded me of a lot of smaller details that I had forgotten), but with him replacing out and my bad feeling about Gamma, he's not my #1 choice at the moment.
Pepto - Leaning scum, his entrance was bad and he doesn't seem to care about game solving.

Strong Null

McMenno - I can't read him at all.

Town

House
Maxous
zakk - Went from a solid SR to a TR, I don't see any scum motivation for his play, whereas his stated town motivation for his early play seems clear and makes a ton of sense.
SlySly - More "not scum" than any pro-town play, I don't see SlySly flipping scum.

I'm also not scumreading Accountant, and I remember townreading him, but my notetaking has been bad lately so I forgot why. Definitely not SRing him, though.

Others are either null or leaning in one direction, but not to a major extent.

[Leonshade]

Back from V/LA, catching up tomorrow. Last page I read was 31, good lord.

[Leonshade]

Back from V/LA, catching up tomorrow. Last page I read was 31, good lord.

[Leonshade]

I'm probably not gonna read 70 pages, and the last thing this game needs is another replace out, so I will sheep a top townread for a bit. There's 100 pages and town's too split, gotta get something going.

VOTE: McMenno

I'm sheeping Maxous for the record.

[Leonshade]

Sure, I was null on Blade Dancer before my hiatus.

[Leonshade]

Andrius can join my townread list, the tone of his recent posting reads as town to me, as does wanting to catch people up, collecting information into a more easily consumable form and pleading people to move the gamestate forward. I also agree with Andrius that the original deadline applying is a real possibility, and I think it would be pro-town to try to end the day before it.

Let's lynch Leon. That awkward vote choice was hella opportunistic.
VOTE: LeonShade

You know what's opportunistic? A wagon on a player returning from a week-long V/LA. It's a 100+ page game, if you've been actively scumhunting you should have a better top scumread than the lurker who's been a complete non-factor.

How did my mini-wagon come to consist of my top three pre-V/LA scumreads? Did I manage to call scum that early? Probably not, but I'm still fine with my scumreads on everyone on my wagon.

NC's scumread on Titus has poor reasons, but I'm not sure if it's coming from a scummy place. A weird application of meta to be certain, the fact that Titus (according to NC) isn't usually consistent in their reasoning doesn't make them scum when they are. I'm not TRing Titus for the record, just disagree with NC's case on her.

I'll try not to TR Ankamius too hard for their defense of me, as it would be easy to pocket me right now, but they managed to exactly pinpoint my motivations for the sheeping.

I don't expect people to TR me for sheeping a townread, but it's certainly better for the game if I try to latch onto something to get back into the game instead of waiting for me to slog through 70 pages while the day is still going on. A night would allow me, and other players, at least some chance to catch up to the backlog. We're not going to get that night, or any advancement to the gamestate, if we don't get a real wagon going.

Gonna townlean Firebringer. I don't like compromise lynches and I'd normally be pinged by someone attempting to lynch their TR while trying to wash their hands of the result, but my gut says their frustration is genuine and their behavior makes sense for town in these extreme circumstances.

[Leonshade]

Could someone list all the claims that have taken place thus far? TIA.

[Leonshade]

Oh right, Firebringer replaced Accountant, a player I remember gut townreading. Feeling even better about that slot.

Town

Maxous
House/Yume (this is not updated as I haven't seen new stuff from this slot)
zakk
Andrius
Ankamius
Firebringer
SlySly (still don't think he'll flip scum, I'm not confident in his reads, though)

Scum

Gamma
Narna
Nahdia
McMenno (still trusting Maxous on this one, need to take a closer look)

Need to take a closer look at Titus and NC to sort them.

I really like Magna's 2508 and 2638, but Magna's burned me one too many times for me to easily TR them.

[Leonshade]

I really like Magna's 2508 and 2636, but Magna's burned me one too many times for me to easily TR them.

EBWOP.

[Leonshade]

I've only read everything since My eyes started glazing over when I looked at the amount of pages I would have to read, so I decided to get things started by sheeping one of House and Maxous, my top two TRs. House replaced out, so Maxous it was. I put him in my scumpool on the strength of Maxous SRing him, though his recent posting is bad. I will look into him later as promised, but for now I will be focusing on getting back into the game, interactions and forming reads based on the new material.

I didn't even remember who replaced giga and Pepto when I made the McMenno vote.

[Leonshade]

@2742: I want to see where this goes.

VOTE: Creature

[Leonshade]

@Leon: I know you don't want to read the entire game, but could you at least read my ISO? TIA

No longer SRing Gamma.

[Leonshade]

McMenno being sans would be really appropriate.

What would your role become night 8?

[Leonshade]

Also I found that Nahdia audio and listened to all of it, the fuck is wrong with me?

Did nothing to change my read on her, though. I didn't pay close attention but it was a listing of reads that I think would be easy to fake as scum.

@zakk: I explained most of my reads, at least my scumreads, in the large post you quoted. All reads I either explained in that post, or are leftover reads from prior (those ones I have less confidence in now, I'm not TRing Yume's slot as much for example). If you want an explanation on a specific read, I'll be glad to answer.

[Leonshade]

Andrius brings up points about NC that, unless there's misrepping going on, makes me want to give scumpoints to NC. Gonna scumlean NC, pending on me taking a closer look at the context of Andrius's quotes. And I'm pretty confident in my Andrius TR so I don't think he's misrepping NC.

[Leonshade]

Fine with a McMenno lynch, will let Ank hammer.

[Leonshade]

Are you kidding me? A wagon hits L-1, there's a VT claim and the wagon gets derailed? Are you just blatantly fishing for PR claims or what?

This Magna wagon is scummy as fuck, I don't approve of it.

VOTE: Narna

This is a better wagon.

Not interested in a Magna-zakk 1v1. Don't like the wagon against Magna and while my zakk TR is residual, nothing has happened to change it.

[Leonshade]

McMenno.

[Leonshade]

McMenno.

No, he claimed useless not vt.

Is there a practical difference?

[Leonshade]

@Leonshade, Yes. There are roles such as Neopolitans and Vanilla cops that get positives on vanillas and you would be misleading them.

Fine, there are edge-case scenarios where it matters, but that was not my point. My point is that now we're more likely to hit a useful town role as opposed to a useless one. With McMenno we either hit scum or useless, but with how split the town is otherwise, we're on the way to a bad compromise lynch that might cost town a better PR. I'm not blaming people for wanting to avoid a mislynch if they're townreading McMenno, but I don't TR his claim and I think some of the people switching wagons have ulterior motives.

@Andrius:

Explain your SR on me. I went from town in 1281 to scum in 2442 when I was on V/LA the entire time.

[Leonshade]

@Andrius:

Explain your SR on me. I went from town in 1281 to scum in 2442 when I was on V/LA the entire time.

[Leonshade]

The sassy answer is there were over a thousand new posts since then. Chances are I lost your VLA in that timeframe.
Also is this really the most pressing item for you?

I needed more reads from you, as denoted in the former. They did not appear, likely fron VLA, so you were demoted.

Likely didnt see the VLA. shrug

I saw no explanation for the read change, and thanks to the VLA I thought there was seemingly no reason for it. I wanted to gauge whether your read change was genuine or whether you're scum slipping on your fakereads. Your answer is believable, if not exactly satisfactory.

Could someone other than zakk make a case for Magna scum?

[Leonshade]

Could someone other than zakk make a case for Magna scum?

*crickets*

This wagon sucks.

Got a townlean on Nosferatu after their recent posts, largely for seeing the same things I do. The Narna wagon is still where I like my vote.

[Leonshade]

And doing so after another wagon got to L-1, so "we gotta lynch someone" doesn't work as a reason here.

[Leonshade]

I went looking through the VCs to see if there had been a wagon on Magna before, and I found this gem:

i mean

let's just all vote Magna whether you think the other people are town or not

how bout that shit

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

VOTE: Magna

VOTE: Magna

What's going on? Are you people just sheeping zakk because you don't have any scumreads?

DOES ANYONE VOTING FOR MAGNA OTHER THAN ZAKK ACTUALLY SCUMREAD MAGNA?

[Leonshade]

And I will grant that I at least saw Gamma hint at SRing Magna before that vote, but Creature provided no reasons and seemingly had him listed as non-scum in a previous reads post.

[Leonshade]

@Gamma: Do you TR Narna? If so, why?

[Leonshade]

Yes I TR Narna, because she doesn't feel super-opportunistic, like her predecessor. Even then, I had trouble seeing Pepto as scummy so it wasn't very hard to become a townread.

Not that I feel "hasn't been super-scummy" is a good reason to TR someone anyway, but now that I've read his ISO, I disagree on Narna's opportunism. Look at Narna move from his top SR to Nahdia in 2067 when there's a wagon on her (not scummy in and of itself), then never interact with her (this is where it starts getting scummy) before moving on. I've already said that I felt the wagon on me was opportunistic. Narna's jump was especially opportunistic, as there's no sign of him SRing me before then (he had me as null with "I like his reads" before) and he's jumping from the wagon on McMenno, who's been his top SR up to that point, to me,

after I also joined the McMenno wagon

. The wagon on his top SR was growing and he jumped off to vote for the lurker.

And then we come to Magna.

I'd rather go after

PV or

Magna again

, but I'd be ok with lynching Leon.

Narna says he'll go after Magna again, implying that there's been a previous time he went after Magna.

When?

Narna had not once voted, or even pushed on, Magna up to that point. He disagrees with the wagon on him in 1662, townreads him in 2217, has a minor interaction with him that doesn't read at all like a push (even though it's later the supposed basis of one), then posts the above. Don't take my word for it, look at this:

What you are saying would imply that not listening to Nahdia's hour long reads list (before the mod called foul) is also scummy. Why didn't you call out people for that?

Very scummy to suggest that a post the Mod very explicitly said was illegal has the same weight as legal game posts …

It's part of the game, and people were claiming not to have followed it. I was pushing Sly for a reaction. It seems like a protown move to me, even if a little weak.

Do you think Creature slipped here?

Not doing it, it's already pointless.

If Yume is scum, scum should have already told her about it.

Nvm.

No, I am just used for scum having confirmed daychat in large theme games.

That was addressed to Magna because he seems to have given you a pass there when Nahdia was not.

Mod - I'll be V/LA from basically now til Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties. Including taking impressionable tweens to haunted houses ..."

Did anyone else have the thought that Nosferatu probably wouldn't be so clueless about who is in what slot (not realizing Blade Dancer & Giga have been replaced) if he were communicating with a scumteam? Cause I mean, that sprung to mind but I'm sort of struggling with whether the whole premise of that being towny is dumb and bad.

Have I mentioned lately I love when scum just take for granted that their Daytalk is common knowledge when nothing in the rules from the Mod indicates Daytalk is in effect?

I really love it ...

Those are the only interactions Narna has with Magna between his TRing him and claiming that he wants to "go after him again".

Narna is scum who can't keep his fakereads straight. Lynch Narna.

[Leonshade]

@Narna:

I'd like to know your top SRs and TRs.

[Leonshade]

It says "he" under his avatar.

Don't trust me on the Magna thing, read Narna's ISO. Pretending that he's pushed on Magna before is serious misdirection, and relatively easy to get away with in a large game.

[Leonshade]

I wonder if Snarky's win condition is ensuring no lynch takes place?

Leon, this is how my 2564 was supposed to be read

I'd rather [the town] go after PV or Magna again, but I'd be ok with [the town] lynching Leon.

If you think scum is going to lie for absolutely no reason (aside from bussing Magna because why would scum want to ensure they get credit for a mislynch?), then I doubt I'll be convincing you of much. I barely pushed Jining pv, and let it slide when he ignored me. I barely pushed Magna, but he didn't ignore me. I don't see how you can read the posts Magna was throwing at me, and then claim my read on the slot changing was sudden.

The post does make more sense when interpreted like that, and the rest of your play doesn't give me evidence that you meant otherwise. Why did you "barely" push PV if he was one of your top scumreads?

3275: I don't think that Nahdia's case was worth sheeping, but Gamma joining the wagon does leave a hole in that argument. Then again, Gamma seems to join every wagon that someone is willing to push.

How does NC manage to post so much without me managing to form a read on them? Gonna scumlean NC for that.

@Narna:

I'd like to know your top SRs and TRs.

My top scum reads are Mcmenno, Magna, PV, you, and my weaker reads would be Andrius and Gamma.
These townreads aren't so strong right now, but Zakk, Not Chara, Nahdia, and Creature.

Explain your scumread on Gamma.

-snip-

Nahdia provided plenty of content to form an opinion on. If you read the part of the game surrounding where I voted you, you should have picked up on multiple people objecting to the Mcmenno wagon. All of the counter wagons when I switched to you were on the biggest pushers of the Mcmenno wagon (Titus, Nahdia, and I). I even expressed my concern of the wagon stalling before Nahdia even voted you in in 2550. I didn't believe that a lurker openly sheeping Maxous would breathe life into the wagon

This feels like you just iso'd me to find a reason to push the lynchbait. It also sounds like you would have townread me if I just tunneled my top scumread all phase. I'm pretty sure that's what Mcmenno is doing, and you voted him over three other competing wagons.

I joined the McMenno wagon because I was sheeping Maxous, as I explained back then. I didn't even know why Maxous, or anyone else, was scumreading him. I would not consider your slot lynchbait, I was SRing your predecessor and I SR'd what I saw in your ISO. I don't think you should just tunnel your top SR, but outside the Magna push, your ISO did not show much pushing of your wagons. Hell, I specifically pointed out your time on the Nahdia wagon because you did diddly squat to advance that wagon, you just sat on it for a while before moving on. Your defense of yourself on these last few pages is more passionate than your time on the Nahdia wagon

P-Edit: I write the above and then I notice you spent 2-3 posts on the Nahdia wagon before moving on to McMenno. Leaving the above in for posterity's sake.

SirCakez's meta argument was bad anyway, but now it's been completely destroyed.

I'm less confident in my Narna read after his response and the realization that I was mistaken on some of my points. While my read on Pepto might be the same (I should go back and re-read his ISO), I'm not certain Narna is scum anymore.

[Leonshade]

Less than two hours until the original deadline. I don't know if we can get a lynch done in that time, and I think deadline panic would just result in a bad mislynch. I might feel differently if I knew for a fact that the original deadline is the real one, but I don't think we should rush to lynch if we don't know for certain.

[Leonshade]

What I wouldn't do for a dayvig right now...

Who would you dayvig?

[Leonshade]

What I wouldn't do for a dayvig right now...

Who would you dayvig?

You.

Explain your scumread on me. It's mostly gone unstated, beyond you hating my ISO and me sheeping Maxous.

[Leonshade]

What I wouldn't do for a dayvig right now...

Who would you dayvig?

You.

Explain your scumread on me. It's mostly gone unstated, beyond you hating my ISO and me sheeping Maxous.

I think you saying "I can't read McMenno" was an excuse to not read him. I do that as scum too.

I was hoping for more.

I'll be here until deadline, but I doubt enough people are even online to get a wagon going before the original deadline.

[Leonshade]

Day 1 Will End on Saturday, October 22nd, at 5 p.m. eastern time.
Countdown: (expired on 2016-10-22 17:00:00)

That's the original deadline.

[Leonshade]

@Narna:

I'm currently re-evaluating my read on you, I've disengaged to re-read.

[Leonshade]

Unvote

Pepto's ISO wasn't as bad as I remembered, I could see him as lynchbait as much as scum. Narna satisfactorily explained my biggest scumtell (the Magna thing) and I noticed one of my others (not pushing reads) was flawed, too. The only thing left is jumping on my wagon, and at that point I'm essentially SRing him off of OMGUS.

Yup, I got nothing. Nahdia's my only SR left, and that's a leftover from Giga, too.

[Leonshade]

if you're unvoting Narna, vote Magna. no one should not be voting.
how does you being unable to read me translate to a lean scumread, exactly?
Creature: my point was that there was no Cakez wagon. why did you say you'd join one, and what prompted that thought? those were my original questions.

High post volume with lots of white noise hints at scum doing their best to stay under the radar while feigning activity. I feel that if you've managed to post this much without me having a strong opinion of your alignment, there's a decent chance you're intending to not be looked into closely. It's only a lean as I have to look into you more closely.

[Leonshade]

I want to take a closer look at Magna before deciding whether to vote.

[Leonshade]

if we lynch magna and he flips town can we lynch narna tomorrow?

Lining up lynches, are we?

[Leonshade]

I don't have time to go through MOI's ISO and we're this close to a lynch/potential deadline. I'm a damn hypocrite.

VOTE: Magna

L-1

[Leonshade]

So I have the next few hours to pay attention here. Big post coming

So when is this?

[Leonshade]

VOTE: McMenno

This today.

Leonshade, you are not boring lol.

Thanks. Disagreed on McMenno, though.

The audio file was deemed against the rules. It should not weigh into anything.

It's against the rules to post audio files, but if there's game-relevant information there, and someone has already listened to it, it should absolutely weigh into the game. Otherwise the players who have listened to the audio would have to pretend not to have information they do have. If Skullduggery accidentally PM'd me who's scum, he couldn't just make me ignore that and keep playing the game as normal. At that point I wouldn't be playing mafia, I would just be roleplaying.

The McMenno wagon doesn't interest me. zakk was pushing for Magna the hardest, so I don't think that Magna was the counterwagon to McMenno. Magna may have been the counterwagon to Narna, though.

VOTE: Narna

[Leonshade]

Unvote

Pepto's ISO wasn't as bad as I remembered, I could see him as lynchbait as much as scum. Narna satisfactorily explained my biggest scumtell (the Magna thing) and I noticed one of my others (not pushing reads) was flawed, too. The only thing left is jumping on my wagon, and at that point I'm essentially SRing him off of OMGUS.

Yup, I got nothing. Nahdia's my only SR left, and that's a leftover from Giga, too.

Did the town flip make my explanation less satisfactory somehow?

No, but your explanation didn't make me townread you, it just made me doubt my scumread on you. The townflip and the way the Magna wagon played out makes me think counterwagon, and I think you're more likely scum than McMenno.

[Leonshade]

The one pushing the hardest for the Magna wagon was zakk, who flipped town. No doubt there was scum on the Magna wagon, but as I've expressed earlier, the chances are just as likely that they saw McMenno's useless claim and decided to go fishing for a town PR instead.

[Leonshade]

Uhh, reading back I realize that the people who abandoned the Narna wagon were Maxous (who's town), then me, then Gamma (who's town). Nevermind on that counterwagon theory.

Unvote

I don't know who's scum, I need to reread.

[Leonshade]

ah I knew I should have just jumped down your throat instead of asking the obvious question to make you double check your opportunism.

I unvoted during the same minute you asked your question, I didn't go check your D1 wagon and type that post in the <60 seconds between your post and my unvote.

We do know Nahdia is a jailkeepeer. She never said the block target today.

The inference is that McMenno knows who Nahdia blocked or that it wasn't Shiro. That's what I find most troubling.

We don't know anything.

I jailed zakk, in case it wasn't totally clear. Or, tried to. I was blocked or he was strongkilled.

Well then McMenno automatically believes Nahdia's statement as true, which is concerning.

We do know Nahdia is a blocker but alignment unknown.

How do we know that Nahdia is a blocker? That's her claim, but we have no other evidence of this. She could've claimed to block zakk to cover up her NK in case of a tracker/watcher.

[Leonshade]

We do know Nahdia is a jailkeepeer. She never said the block target today.

The inference is that McMenno knows who Nahdia blocked or that it wasn't Shiro. That's what I find most troubling.

We don't know anything.

I jailed zakk, in case it wasn't totally clear. Or, tried to. I was blocked or he was strongkilled.

Well then McMenno automatically believes Nahdia's statement as true, which is concerning.

We do know Nahdia is a blocker but alignment unknown.

How do we know that Nahdia is a blocker? That's her claim, but we have no other evidence of this. She could've claimed to block zakk to cover up her NK in case of a tracker/watcher.[/quote]

@Titus:

I'd still like an answer on this, why do you think we know that Nahdia is a blocker?

[Leonshade]

Yeah, that's why I want to know why Titus is so confident in Nahdia being a blocker.

[Leonshade]

Or you know, we could not pander to role related madness that may or may not exist and lynch ACTUAL SCUM Narnia.

Just a thought.

I'm not sold on Narna scum yet. I'm not trying to lynch Nahdia, I'm trying to sort Titus.

[Leonshade]

Who has been saying kill all the N names?

Me.
With the exception of Nosferatu.

I submitted kills on Narna, Nahdia, and Not Chara last night.
I will continue to do so every night until they are dead, or I die.

Uh, is there a limit to how many kills you can submit each night? Because that seems like a ridiculous ability.

Unofficial post count of the living at time of post (make of it what you will):

368: not chara

335: Gamma

321: house 318 + yume 3 + giovanni 0

312: Blade 137 + Titus 175
303: giga 51 + nahdia 252

217: slysly

214: Accountant 93 + Firebringer 121

175: Creature
157: sircakez
146: mcmenno

127: Andrius

107: narna 95 + pepto 12

91: Ank

87: peregrinev
67: shiro

63: maxous
58: leon

44: nosferatu

29: snarky
21: massive

I have townreads all over the place here, I don't think this exercise was useful.

So I guess it's McMenno or Narna today. And my townreads are split on which way to go, and I don't feel strongly about either being scum. Ugh.

[Leonshade]

(12)

MagnaofIllusion

--

zakk

, Nahdia, Not Chara, Narna,

Firebringer,

Maxous

, Creature,

Gamma Emerald

,

Nosferatu

, SirCakez,

Leonshade

, Shiro

There's scum somewhere in one of the six I'm not townreading, and I'm not sure that Narna is it.

P-Edit:

where would you much rather lynch, Mr Shade?

At the start of the day I would've said Narna, but my reasons for scumreading him keep turning out to suck. McMenno should've been the lynch yesterday, but not because I feel strongly about him as scum. I don't have a strong preference for either.

I'd vote for Narna basically due to him being on the Magna wagon, which was pushed through by conftown zakk. I'd vote for McMenno because Magna might have been the counterwagon to him?

Eh, McMenno just edges it out.

VOTE: McMenno

[Leonshade]

If you're gonna vote anyone for derailing the McMenno wagon, it should be SirCakez, who hopped off the wagon first.

[Leonshade]

And he's pushing hard for Narna, so they're probably not buddies.

[Leonshade]

I don't think Andrius would claim here if he was scum or SK, but a third party seems likely with the role and flavor.

Honestly, with the Frisk flavor I'm worried that his alignment can change if he kills more people, this being a bastard game and all that seems plausible. I think he's town aligned now, but with the flavor, who knows?

Dumb setup speculation, but then this game has stalled to wagon negotiations so who cares.

[Leonshade]

Magna is good, but he also suggested a 1v1 with another town player. He's not an infallible scumhunter the mafia would be desperate to get rid of ASAP.

[Leonshade]

Magna's top scumread D1 flipped town. It doesn't matter how good Magna is, he was wrong in this game and his reads and play benefited scum.

There was probably scum somewhere on the Magna wagon, but the mislynch was achieved thanks to the town's contribution. Simply scumhunting from the Magna wagon isn't going to get us scum, scum wouldn't have needed to all coalesce onto the Magna wagon to get him killed.

P-edit: NC expressed my point better than I did.

Why am I likely town?

[Leonshade]

I don't even know what your point is anymore.

Let's assume that the scum motivation WAS purely to take out Magna, how does this information help us catch scum?

zakk, a flipped townie, was pushing the wagon the hardest. Scum probably jumped onto the wagon at some point, but clearly so did town. Meanwhile scum wouldn't all want to get on a mislynch wagon, and they wouldn't have even needed to. So how does scumhunting solely from the Magna wagon help us?

[Leonshade]

To be fair, my posts getting better with more time for the game would happen as any alignment.

To be honest, I still have like 30-40 pages of the thread unread, and at this point I have no idea who's scum. I don't feel good about McMenno flipping scum, but at this point my gameplan is just joining the wagon I think is least likely to flip town. There's too many players to keep track of right now, thinning the herd and advancing the gamestate is necessary if I want to solve this game.

[Leonshade]

I guess SlySly tunneling Shiro is still a step towards scumhunting? Beats trying to shame everyone for a D1 mislynch.

Shiro's ISO is short so I might dig into it later, but simply to sort her, as they're not likely to be today's lynch.

[Leonshade]

Shiro, who did you target last night?

.........

SlySquared is town, but yeah, he's not reading the game.

Inb4 cult

Cult doesn't really fit with the flavour though.

If we assume that the flavor perfectly fits alignment, then how many scum are we dealing with, exactly? You've claimed Asriel, so if you're town, there aren't that many characters left for scum.

Flowey and Chara are the only ones I'd see as scum 100%, with Gaster being a probable third scum/3P. Who else are we dealing with? This can't just be a three scum game.

[Leonshade]

And we know from zakk's flip that flavor matters, thanks to the flavor cop role.

So I assume town aligned = underground aligned in flavor.

[Leonshade]

I know what you're doing, SlySly, you're looking at and pushing people from the tail end of the Magna wagon one at a time. You're starting with the assumption that Shiro is scummy and confirmation biasing yourself into a scumread on her off of whatever you can find in her ISO.

[Leonshade]

You got someone better to lynch, not including Narna or McMenno?

I really don't, I'm not even into either of the Narna or McMenno wagons.

I can understand why Asriel would be a miller, and I'm sure investigative could be justified, too. But at the same time, Asriel would be a really good fakeclaim to give to Flowey.

Looking through Shiro's ISO next.

[Leonshade]

I assume that's a dayvig?

[Leonshade]

Why did I (sorta) fall for Andrius's trolling? I'm ashamed of myself.

At this point, given the deadline compared to yesterday, my guess is we're on a neutral run now.

We need a good lynch.

Titus is that great lynch. SlySly is also good.

What does the first sentence refer to? I don't think yesterday's deadline was related to us being on a pacifist run or whatever, it was probably someone's ability.

Neither Titus nor SlySly is a good lynch.

[Leonshade]

Yeah, why would McMenno flipping town mean there's scum at the tail end of the Magna wagon? Giovanni seems to be aping SlySly's logic without admitting that he's doing so.

[Leonshade]

Who's your preferred lynch, Ank?

[Leonshade]

I think this confirms that Gaster is anti-town, just in case anyone thinks that "extending the deadline" was pro-town. The messages might also be written by the mod as part of the ability's activation, rather than by the player.

Nahdia certainly hasn't been lurking today.

[Leonshade]

There's still no guarantee that yesterday's deadline was an extension, rather than a false deadline. Obscuring the vote count is undeniably anti-town.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: mcmenno

I believe that's L-1?

[Leonshade]

Magna's lynch:
(12) MagnaofIllusion -- zakk,

Nahdia

,

Not Chara

,

Narna,

Firebringer, Maxous, Creature, Gamma Emerald, Nosferatu, SirCakez,

Leonshade, Shiro

Unofficial current:
(10) McMenno --

Narna,

Titus

,

massive

, Shiro,

Not Chara, Nahdia,

PeregrineV,

Leonshade

, Giovanni il Pellegrino,

Maxous

Problem is, McMenno's failed wagon yesterday was here:
(10) McMenno --

Maxous

,

Titus

,

massive

, Creature, Firebringer,

Nahdia, Not Chara,

Narna

, SirCakez, PeregrineV

Not on McMenno today but voted McMenno yesterday: Creature, Firebringer, SirCakez -- all three on the Magna lynch.

*shrug*

It's busywork but I did it.

Bold is Magna and McMenno, italics is both McMenno wagons.

[Leonshade]

Magna's lynch:
(12) MagnaofIllusion -- zakk,

Nahdia

,

Not Chara

,

Narna,

Firebringer

,

Maxous

,

Creature

, Gamma Emerald, Nosferatu,

SirCakez

,

Leonshade, Shiro

Unofficial current:
(10) McMenno --

Narna,

Titus

,

massive

,

Shiro

,

Not Chara, Nahdia,

PeregrineV,

Leonshade

, Giovanni il Pellegrino,

Maxous

Problem is, McMenno's failed wagon yesterday was here:
(10) McMenno --

Maxous

,

Titus

,

massive

,

Creature,

Firebringer,

Nahdia, Not Chara,

Narna

,

SirCakez,

PeregrineV

Not on McMenno today but voted McMenno yesterday: Creature, Firebringer, SirCakez -- all three on the Magna lynch.

*shrug*

It's busywork but I did it.

Bold is Magna and McMenno, italics is both McMenno wagons.

Underline is for being on both of yesterday's wagons.

[Leonshade]

I just want a lynch, really. Getting 11 players to agree on anything is really hard.

[Leonshade]

Cakez, have you considered that it could be a fakeclaim given by the mod?

[Leonshade]

Almost replaced into a town slot.

The game is moving forward, sweet.

[Leonshade]

I've talked myself out of a Narna lynch twice to lynch town, I won't let it happen a third time.

VOTE: Narna

L-2

Thanks for the exquisite food I got during the night!

[Leonshade]

The reads list is bad, and the vote is horrible, but Narna's claimed PR is really good if true. No result + massive is a really bad combination, though. Not unvoting.

[Leonshade]

I could see Narna's claim being true, but I could also see it as a role scum has. It's really powerful, and scum would have a reason to know who else can kill, with the amount of claimed vigs in this game.

[Leonshade]

I mean, I don't see the pro-town motivation in using such a powerful role on massive of all people.

[Leonshade]

At last, a quick day. Less excuses for town to be apathetic.

[Leonshade]

I'd go for Giovanni, PereV, Almost50 or Andrius if not Leonshade.

I don't want to lynch any of these people.

Shiro I could see as scum, but if Narna's flipping town I don't know why scum!Shiro would get off the Narna wagon after the claim.

[Leonshade]

Actually fuck this Narna lynch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcamjcoRmrQ

[Leonshade]

Govern: Narna

[Leonshade]

First things first, role details:

Flavor is Asgore.
I can only govern in the thread, I can't govern in secret.
I can govern before or after hammer, as long as the thread isn't locked yet.
I can't govern again today, and I won't be able to govern Narna again.

[Leonshade]

I spared Narna because I was getting the same vibes about his lynch post-hammer as I was getting with McMenno, and Narna's role is way better, too. Also my reasons for scumreading Narna remain bad, and not seeing the town motivation in copping massive was stupid. Lynching Narna after that claim is a bad play here, we can wait a day or two and see how things play out with the role.

Also, I'm currently getting town vibes from everyone in the "N-Clan" (Narna, Nahdia, Not Chara). I think town's been getting this game wrong so far, we need to switch our way of looking at the game.

Massive and Leon, are you guys thinking Creature is town? I wanna add him to the townblock (assuming Massive thinks I'm town).

I have not sorted Creature yet. I don't think there's obvious scum motivation in his play, but it's apparent he doesn't pay close attention to the game at times (like with not having noticed Andrius...). That could come from apathetic town in a large game like this, but I've seen it come from scum who knows he doesn't need to read everything, too.

Catching up to the rest later, including the wagon on me, oh boy.

[Leonshade]

Huh, Giovanni's claim is interesting. And since it's an investigative he can't have been blocked. Maxous is conftown.

Maxous and Giovanni first. Maybe Almost50 too.

I'm enjoying this .. A LOT. Wanna do 1-on-1? Or would you rather shoot me at night?

And as for Narna; if he says something like "I'm being death lawyered" it most probably stems from him knowing there is a death lawyer in the game. We thus cannot be 100% positive all flipped players were town. After all, this is explicitly a bastard gamer, is it not?

The "death lawyered" comment was a passive aggressive comment about how town would spin it if he flipped town. The tone of those posts was part of what made me think town, they didn't look like twilight trolling to me.

I don't want Shiro, he was the only one to unvote after Narna's claim.

Nah you roleblock her.
I've got something else to do.

Whatever, boss man. Enjoy your actions failing yet again.

I haven't failed a single action thus far.

Huh? Then what would you describe your kills not going through as?

So, regarding my wagon:

I made post 4292 immediately after Narna was hammered, and I changed my mind after reading everything that had been going on between that, and my govern. I didn't have a good reason to scumread Narna him being a potential counterwagon, same as with my Magna and McMenno votes. Even after Narna was hammered, I felt more relieved that there was a quick day than that scum was lynched. That's an apathetic town mindset, which has gotten us nowhere thus far.

I think my govern saved us from a bad lynch, has gotten us valuable reactions and it allows Narna to use his investigative more. I stand by my govern.

For me to be that I'm scum, I not only have to be scum with Narna (as there's no scum motivation to stop such a powerful town role's mislynch), but I also had to publicly out my role to save my buddy instead of unvoting after his claim and fighting against his lynch.

[Leonshade]

The reads list is bad, and the vote is horrible, but Narna's claimed PR is really good if true. No result + massive is a really bad combination, though. Not unvoting.

I could see Narna's claim being true, but I could also see it as a role scum has. It's really powerful, and scum would have a reason to know who else can kill, with the amount of claimed vigs in this game.

I mean, I don't see the pro-town motivation in using such a powerful role on massive of all people.

All of these posts were after Narna's claim, but before the hammer.

[Leonshade]

Welp, we can command Giovanni and see if he dies. Or maybe even catch him lying.

Only even-night, and he might get blocked.

[Leonshade]

vanilla cop is the most suspicious claim here. almost certain this is role madness.

Titus got some sort of result on me, and she did soft vanilla cop with our VT/useless argument back in D1.

[Leonshade]

@Skullduggery: I will be on V/LA from Friday until Sunday, that's the 11th to the 13th.

Don't have time today either. I will need to reread as I don't know who's scum.

[Leonshade]

This is why I prefer smaller games, I don't feel comfortable at all with my normal playstyle in this game.

[Leonshade]

Back from V/LA, catching up tomorrow.

[Leonshade]

@SnarkySnowman:

While catching up I noticed you haven't cast a vote all day despite having scumreads, why is this?

For a moment thought you were voteless until I saw you'd voted the other two days.

[Leonshade]

Some of my strongest townreads (Andrius, Ankamius, Maxous) are voting for Not Chara, but I also feel that Not Chara is town. Hmm.

[Leonshade]

All this time I've been thinking that Titus had a strong scumread on Narna and really wanted him lynched, and that's why she thought I was scum for governing the lynch. But no.

VOTE: Narna

I am a woman of my word. My reads are off. Time to sheep.

If Narna is town, scum are dividing and conquering or lurking.

Titus justified her hop on the wagon by sheeping Andrius (and didn't seem to have much of a scumread on Narna before). The second post is post-hammer pre-govern. Titus doesn't seem certain at all that Narna will flip scum.

If leon was planning to govern Narna all along, why would he initially doubtcast the readlist and such? I really doubt he's scum saving town here too, considering the powerful role Narna claimed. I buy the progression; a lot happened between Leon disliking Narna's immediate reaction to when he decided to govern the lynch.

He wasn't though. He backed off as far as he could with the claim.

He spent 3 days tunneling.

Then he's like powerful role...not unvoting. He then suddenly decides to govern, without regard to the impact on the group?

A lot happened..meh not really and Leon didn't comment on anything relevant for the most part.

And yet, after the govern, I must be scum. The bolded is a blatant lie, I spend the first 2 days flip-flopping on Narna. Day three we had two mislynches, so I figured if town has it wrong so far, Narna must be scum. But I started feeling really bad about the hammer during the twilight, and I felt we had another mislynch in our hands, this time of a powerful town role. So I governed the lynch.

You're not certain on Narna's flip yourself, but I govern the lynch and suddenly we both must be scum? Like everyone's been saying, it would be a really stupid move for scum!Leon to govern scum!Narna's lynch, and I'd have no motivation as scum to govern Narna's lynch. Post-govern Titus tried to set up my mislynch, then when I flipped town she could go "mistaken town, let's lynch Narna anyway". Now she's going after Not Chara, who's towniness I feel good about.

Titus was a strong part of the McMenno mislynch, then was content to coast with an easy Narna lynch D3 before the govern. Titus and Narna are almost definitely not scum together, so with coasting you can take the blame off yourself if Narna flips town.

If Titus flips town, some of my townreads are wrong and I will have to re-examine them. I will not oppose a D4 Narna lynch if Titus is town, but I feel confident that Titus is scum.

VOTE: Titus

[Leonshade]

I really did not expect this much opposition to my govern, I thought others were seeing the same things about Narna's towniness post-lynch that I was. I've seen twilight trolling, and Narna's posts didn't read like twilight trolling to me. The role is also powerful enough that I thought people would welcome the govern. I also figured that unveiling my govern would draw the night kill, as well as any protective roles, preventing NKs. I now see that people are frustrated I put my read above theirs, and I understand their view. But I think my govern was good for town in the long run, even if it forced people to re-think the lynch for the day.

[Leonshade]

I let it happen a third time.

Why would I post that if I was buddies with Narna?

[Leonshade]

The why would you question is always a bad one. It frames the argument and lets scum try to argue essentially right for wrong reasons.

The fact is, you posted that. The fact is that Narna's claim didn't persuade you. The fact is that you then governed based on trolling you didn't talk with anyone over.

I am OK with unpopular governs as I usually have a minority opinion in games. I am not OK with an unjustified govern that comes out of left field. It is textbook scum governor. Given you're almost always at the end of the Narna wagon, it reeks of not wanting to bus.

The way I've phrased it might be manipulative, but you can't have a scum player without scum motives. And I don't know how I would've discussed the govern without outing the fact that I'm a governor. I decided that I wouldn't soft my role, as the govern loses its power if people know it's coming. I wanted the ability to get genuine reactions, and we wouldn't have gotten those if people were playing up their towniness so they could get governed.

[Leonshade]

Four and a half days left, I'm willing to lynch one of my nullreads if it means we don't lynch NC.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Creature

[Leonshade]

@Mod: I will be on V/LA from Friday to Sunday, that's the 18th to the 20th.

[Leonshade]

Scum trying to discredit the role. Funny how the role is simultaneously too powerful to be real, and too useless to actually clear anyone.

Not too late to lynch Titus.

[Leonshade]

If you're going after easy lynches, go for someone that isn't actually trying to contribute to the game.

I could vote for Shiro, too, but your wagon has more traction.

I'm not confident Creature will flip scum, but I'm confident Not Chara will flip town and I'm willing to compromise at this point.

[Leonshade]

Titus is scum, but I don't know how to get the town players to see that, Creature.

[Leonshade]

Hi, back from V/LA.

Haven't read the last 15 pages, but I see there's a wagon against me. The Creature wagon is too apathetic to gain traction and I won't lynch NC, so I'll just vote for my top scumread.

VOTE: Titus

[Leonshade]

Lynching me would really suck, as Narna will probably get lynched tomorrow anyway. You won't get any info off of my flip, since I don't know Narna's alignment.

[Leonshade]

Propose a viable alternative

I'll lynch Creature if need be. I won't lynch NC, as he's probably done more to solve this game than I have. Titus would be ideal, but it's not happening in two hours.

[Leonshade]

VOTE: Creature

I don't know if you'll flip scum, but I know I won't.

[Leonshade]

I'm townreading everyone on my wagon except for Creature and SirCakes.

[Leonshade]

Oh, and Titus is on my wagon and scum.

[Leonshade]

02 SirCakez

03 Giovanni il Pellegrino

04 Maxous

05 Creature
06 PeregrineV

07 Titus

08 Shiro

11 Nahdia

12 Firebringer
13 Not Chara

14 Ankamius

15 SlySly

17 SnarkySnowman
18 Narna
19 Almost50

21 Andrius

22 massive

[Leonshade]

Almost50 is also town.

[Leonshade]

At this point I'm kinda hoping Narna flips scum, as I look like the likely lynch and town doesn't need two more mislynches. But I feel good about Titus being scum, and Titus and Narna can't be scum together. I'm reading Narna as the opposite alignment of Titus, so he's probably town.

[Leonshade]

Reading Andrius's and SlySly's posts has been entertaining, even if they've been wishing for my death lately.

If I had known that my govern would lead to this, I think I would've let Narna get lynched. Maybe town will get useful info out of the post-govern reactions and the wagon on me.

[Leonshade]

Nahdia and NC were happy and they're both town. Titus was sad and she's scum.

[Leonshade]

I probably won't be on for the deadline. I'll accept my death with dignity.

Full claim: Asgore, Town One-Shot Governor.

If I wasted my only govern on scum, I'll be mad at myself. But I think I'm right on this one, and Narna is town and Titus is scum.

[Leonshade]

The answer: scum (Titus) wants me dead.

[Leonshade]

Govern: Leonshade

[Leonshade]

Govern: Leonshade

Just kidding.

I've said my piece. I'll be rooting for town in the dead topic. Please take a closer look at Titus.

I was struggling to remain interested for large parts of the game, but I've also enjoyed quite a bit of it. I also love Undertale, so finding out the flavor of the set-up will be fun.

The govern was kind of a spur of the moment thing, I didn't fully think it through. It's possible that the govern was anti-town regardless of Narna's alignment, sorry about that. I hope Narna's investigation will provide useful info.

[Leonshade]

Thanks, Skull.

Congrats to the scumteam. Maxous had me fooled all the way up to my death, props to Math for catching him.