SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[ZeL1nK2]

Insert giant middle finger image here.

Hope my green flip blows your mind.

It will blow my mind. What kind of third party are you?

I'm actually not at all surprised that TSO doesn't know the town color.

I would be mildly surprised by a green flip, though.

Hey, if you lurk you must be scum.

Yes, that is my argument for why you're scum. It has nothing to do with you (still) providing no content that makes sense from the point of view that you're town. Or that your entire play this game looks more like pushing agendas than actually hunting scum. Or that your associations with flipped scum don't make you look good. Or that the only case you've produced so far has made absolutely no sense (and has been deconstructed and refuted in its entirety, a fact you haven't acknowledged). Or that you're refusing to elaborate on any of your other reads, despite requests to do so. Or any of the other points that have been mentioned over and over.

It's all because of "lurking".

By the way, since you've given up and accepted your lynch, would you be so kind as to full-claim?

however, it still does not negate the point about protecting ceph.

Yeah, but I think #7757 did a pretty good job of negating that point!

I have responded to everything I really care about - everything you've posted about TWIE-town, for example.

Why are you so fixated on arguing about TWIE? Do you think he's scum? If so, what were the cheeky comments to him in #7894 and the following post about? I mean, if you yourself think TWIE is scum, that doesn't make a lot of sense. But if you think TWIE is town, then the current line of questioning doesn't make a lot of sense.

I suppose this is all explained by the fact that you're scum and this is yet another inconsistency, but whatever.

[ZeL1nK2]

Thanks for your contribution to the game.

I value reading your input and await your guidance on who's scum because the rest of this game is clearly helpless without you.

[ZeL1nK2]

It doesn't matter, we need to wait for FourTrouble to be here, anyway.

I'm just interested in seeing whether mastin actually does anything. Ever.

I mean, not to downplay mastin's contributions to the game so far which have been, uh... Speaking against an AP lynch, nothing really D2 apart from calling my slot scum, pushing an Anamikus lynch D3 (and then deciding post-hammer it wasn't a good lynch), and uh... nothing today... I mean, I'm not trying to suggest mastin hasn't been a force for good in this game, but when mastin speaks like the TSO lynch isn't a good one and the arguments for TSO being scum aren't solid (you know, solid like the Anamikus lynch mastin was pushing yesterday...) I kind of just smile at my screen for a while before I shed a single tear.

[ZeL1nK2]

Oh, OK.

Who's scum?

[ZeL1nK2]

It's not necessarily right, but it's also not hard to understand how it makes sense.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'm happy with my TSO vote.

I am town-reading TWIE. TSO's push on him and then later trying to push me feels like someone who is trying to find someone (anyone!) to be the lynch besides himself.

I didn't try to fucking push you once, Skybird, you just saw your name, assumed I was calling you scum and decided to vote me. Nice fucking play.

Actually she voted you long before you mentioned her name.

[ZeL1nK2]

You're right for once, that's true, her justification annoyed me so much I presumed it was a vote.

A broken clock is right... I wanna say three times a day?

[ZeL1nK2]

Would you consider full-claiming or are you going to be stubborn?

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't understand how that would be at all helpful if you're actually town. Like, even if you are town, I don't see you living very long in this game, and certainly not to LyLo, without a darn good reason to keep you alive.

Unless your very specific reason is "I'm scum" or "I'm being stubborn because you're a derp so NYAH!" I don't really see why you'd take a secret to the grave (even if that secret would be revealed on death).

[ZeL1nK2]

What's your read on TWIE, anyway? I'd love to discuss it with you, since you are an expert scumhunter.

Oh, please, you flatter me. Just because I caught you, doesn't make me an expert.

I think he could be town, but I wouldn't be terribly said if he ate a bullet (though I think I'd prefer TAOS slot over TWIE, if only to save dram the trouble of finding a replacement, and because I have misgivings about TAOS's attitude towards this game since Pumbaa died - yes, he's lurking and I think lurking is scummy so I think he could be scum!)

[ZeL1nK2]

Don't waste your fucking vig shot on me, it doesn't work. Lynch me and shoot TWIE.

Im blockproof redirectproof and deathproof though.

I feel like I just said that a couple pages ago.

Dearie, everyone deathproof, blockproof and redirectproof in this game.

Except scum, apparently.

[ZeL1nK2]

OK, I'll add you to the ever-growing list of people who are all of those things.

The list currently contains... everyone that's claimed or hinted at anything so far this game.

Yay!

[ZeL1nK2]

The almost part is why I wouldn't mind seeing you eat a bullet. You know, since it's not going to affect you anyway.

Though I think I'd still rather see TAOS eat it.

[ZeL1nK2]

... Did you actually read the entirety of 7757?

[ZeL1nK2]

Do you even know what condescending means?

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't see how you got "nuh uh" if you read the entirety of #7757

[ZeL1nK2]

As far as I can tell, that was more about pikari's mentality towards it than all of the reasons F-16 may have been lynched that game.

Heck, after reading his play here, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also lynched for being a douche.

You're missing the point if you think that matters.

[ZeL1nK2]

Also you're missing the second last paragraph, which talks about why there's not a whole lot of logic behind fake-claiming it in the first place.

And you're right, he didn't explicitly claim doc when he initially claimed the protect. Though he did use very specific and not-very-ambiguous words like "protect" and "save". I mean, I suppose you could theoretically argue that he was speaking metaphorically, and he protected him through the power of prayer or something, but the implications of using those words seems obvious to me.

[ZeL1nK2]

As far as I can tell, that was more about pikari's mentality towards it than all of the reasons F-16 may have been lynched that game.

Heck, after reading his play here, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also lynched for being a douche.

You're missing the point if you think that matters.

To elaborate on this a little, if player A thinks someone is scum for X, player B thinks they're scum for Y and player C thinks they're scum for Z, it doesn't matter if they were lynched for X, Y and Z in this scenario. We're looking at the motivations behind each player's push, and if A is pushing for reason X (where A here is pikari and X is doc counter-claim), that's all that matters in this particular scenario.

[ZeL1nK2]

I know what he's claiming. I was the first one to point that out, as far as I can tell. Or at least I don't recall anyone mentioning the words rolestopper before I did. I may have missed something.

It doesn't change a whole lot, though.

I mean, you

know

he's claiming a rolestopper, but you're still treating him like a doc by saying, "oh, we already have flipped docs!"

Either the roles are different (in which case, you have no real point except that he

could

be scum who rolestopped a partner N1.. which is about as compelling as saying Magua could be scum because he posted a picture in his first post) or the roles are essentially the same (in which case, what are you arguing by pointing out it's a rolestopper?).

[ZeL1nK2]

I know who scum would protect if they're a scum rolestopper. If your suggestion is that him protecting Pumbaa is incriminating somehow, then that's an incredibly weak point.

And just so we're clear, your argument is that pikari could be scum because he didn't claim doc, he claimed rolestopper, and he did this not fearing a 1v1 with a doc they're aware of, and the reason he did this was because he wanted to tie himself to a scum partner and pretend he was the reason for a failed kill, even though they would have known there was at least one other role that could have potentially stopped the kill and that his claim would only buy them temporary town cred, if any at all. You disagree that the way he did this seemed town. You disagree that it was an unnecessary, potentially risky move that could have backfired. You think this is something they wouldn't wait and see about - you know, see whether Pumbaa or pikari were actually going to get a significant wagon before drawing an unnecessary connection between each other. You think pikari didn't realise that he might look bad if it came to light that he protected a scum player (or that Pumbaa would look bad if pikari flipped). You think all of the things that would be required to make pikari scum are more likely than him being town.

Is the above accurate?

And your case on him consists of him claiming a protect on Pumbaa and you thinking his read progression on TSO is awkward.

This is the sum of your case on pikari, correct?

[ZeL1nK2]

ok, that works both ways, buddy.

you can't say "HE'S NOT A REPLICA ROLE" and then turn around and say "vezok would know NOT to claim a replica role and therefore he's not scum"

Actually, I was simply asking you to clarify what your thoughts on the matter are. Or perhaps what you are suggesting pikari's thoughts on the matter are.

Is it a duplicate role? If so, then he should have feared a 1v1.

Is it not a duplicate role? OK, fine, we can remove take the part about counter-claims off the table. Your sole point now is that he claimed a protect on Pumbaa. And because you can potentially see a reason for him doing this as scum, he is scum. This is not all that compelling to me.

[ZeL1nK2]

if you don't want to come off as condescending you wouldn't ham-fistedly cram your opinions into what you're ostensibly saying is my opinion

I'm sorry. It's hard not to be condescending when you see someone claiming that because someone might be scum, they're scum.

Apologies if I'm being condescending by pointing out this is your argument.

Apologies if I'm being condescending by making it obvious your argument is this simple.

Apologies if I'm being condescending for apologising for being condescending.

I guess I'm just a meanie. Sorry!

[ZeL1nK2]

I mean, yay! He might have done it for the reasons you're suggesting.

Why is this somehow more likely than him as town claiming the protect on Pumbaa after no night kill occurred?

Oh because he must be scum.

For all these compelling reasons:

- His read progression on TSO today doesn't make sense.
- He protected Pumbaa
- He protected Pumbaa
- He protected Pumbaa

[ZeL1nK2]

I think it's best for both of us if I just go back to ignoring you again.

[ZeL1nK2]

Actually, I think it was the Tammy head who made #7757 (partially because it doesn't appear Nacho was in Serum & Steel).

Also, my argument has never been based solely on that. In fact, I've made a bigger point out of the fact that I see

the way he did it

as more of a reason to think he's town than the actual action. I do, however, think Tammy's point about him being cautious of counter-claims (even if it wouldn't strictly be a counter-claim) is valid as well.

Further, I think the fact you're pushing that he

could

be scum who protected a buddy and then claimed it in thread publicly as one of your two main points for him being scum makes your entire case look weak. The fact that there is at least significant reason to believe the opposite is the case means that even if you happen to be right, you've presented no compelling reason to believe your version of events is more likely to be right than the version of events that suggests he's town.

[ZeL1nK2]

Also, regardless of how "condescending" you think I was being in the paragraph in #8017, I think you would still have to believe all those things to reconcile your read (or at least reconcile your belief in your own argument).

[ZeL1nK2]

you've presented no compelling reason to believe your version of events is more likely to be right

And to be clear, I understand you've presented possible scum motivation for it.

You can present possible scum motivation for just about anything that happens in a mafia game.

That does not make it the most likely scenario. You have done nothing in the way of arguing that your theory is the most likely scenario, whereas there are arguments to the contrary.

Essentially you're saying it could have happened, so it likely did.

[ZeL1nK2]

I actually did not mean to be condescending when this started, because I genuinely did not understand why, if you read #7757, you grossly oversimplified it as "nuh uh".

I did become somewhat condescending as the conversation went on and I'm genuinely sorry if that is sapping your enjoyment of the game. But, in all honesty, your argument just looks silly to me and I don't understand how someone that seems like a decent, smart player could truly believe a point so weak has any validity. I mean, even if it happens to be the case, your argument really looks no better than it could have happened, so it did.

I don't think I'm being unfair in saying this is what your argument is, because I've yet to see you point out why it's more likely it

did

actually happen. I have no reason to believe your version of events is correct.

Also, I think your point about the read progression on TSO is rather weak at best. I don't think it makes pikari scum and this is the only other point I've seen from you. Also, I'd like to note that if you think read inconsistencies are scummy, there's a mountain of inconsistencies in TSO's posts that have been pointed out.

I'm not trying to be condescending in this post. I'm simply stating how I see your arguments, from my point of view.

This is an invitation to discuss why I'm wrong about your arguments if you think I'm unfairly assessing your arguments here.

[ZeL1nK2]

whereas there are arguments to the contrary.

show me

#7757 is one of the arguments to the contrary, as much as you're suggesting it isn't valid because rolestopper, not doc.

Another argument is specifically the way in which he claimed. Out the gate D2 - read the way in which he did it and tell me you think it's more likely this was a scum ploy. Because I don't see it at all.

I'm not asking you whether it was potentially beneficial to scum (because anyone can make this argument). I'm asking you to tell me whether you think it's actually the case. And I'm asking you to tell me why.

[ZeL1nK2]

Like just so we're perfectly clear.

I understand the scum motivation. He's scum who claimed it for some sort of potential town cred for him and Pumbaa. OK.
I hope you understand the potential town motivation as well - seeing no night kill and thinking he was responsible. OK.

Both of these are possible.

Do we agree so far?

There are arguments on the table for the latter being more likely. Whether or not you agree with them, what arguments have you presented for your version of events being the correct one?

[ZeL1nK2]

Unless your argument is simply that because the arguments for him being town aren't air-tight, he shouldn't be a town read... In which case your opinion is noted, but I disagree.

But since you're pushing him as scum and pikari protecting Pumbaa is one of the reasons you think this, I don't think that's the case.

[ZeL1nK2]

The conclusion is stated and the evidence is given to fit the conclusion.

... Right, except there are actual arguments for why the potential town intent is more likely (even if you disagree with them). But this isn't actually important here.

There are no arguments for why the potential scum intent is more likely to have occurred. But you're using potential scum intent to suggest it happened, without suggesting why it is more likely to have happened.

Am I just not explaining this properly? I really don't understand how this isn't getting through to you guys.

[ZeL1nK2]

Is it simpler if I just ask: What is the evidence you've given to fit your conclusion?

[ZeL1nK2]

He's scum who claimed it for some sort of potential town cred for him and Pumbaa.

This is your conclusion.

What evidence have you given to support it?

[ZeL1nK2]

Well I wouldn't call them "arguments" so much as maybe "thought experiments"?

They're not "thought experiments". I literally don't know how you're not understanding this.

Look, if he's town, we agree he did it because he saw no kill and legitimately thought Pumbaa was the night kill target. The arguments for thinking this is the case include:

- The way in which it happened. If you're unsure what I mean by this, I can talk about it in a bit more depth (though not right now since I have to go somewhere). If you disagree with this statement, then I'd like to know why.
- The fact that he could have very easily been counter-claimed and forced into a 1v1 (even if rolestopper isn't strictly counter-claimed by doc, it was still a possibly he had to have considered). This is supported by the fact that pikari himself has counter-claimed a doc fake-claim in a somewhat recent game (yes, rolestopper isn't strictly a doc, but a doc could have easily counter-claimed and forced a 1v1 with him, that had to have crossed his mind if he's scum claiming a protect).

If he's scum, we agree he did it for potential town cred for him and Pumbaa. We agree rolestopping a scum buddy is a good idea as scum. The reasons for thinking this is actually the case and that he claimed this D2 include:

<insert reasons>

I haven't seen any yet.

---

Here are some reasons I think this scenario is less likely, for the record:

- It was unnecessary. Neither pikari nor Pumbaa were in any immediate danger.
- Scum know their kill was actually blocked. This means any potential town credit he got from it was temporary at best (and would have disappeared when likely alternatives were given).
- It links scum together in the minds of town if one of them flips. I suppose this isn't a strong argument since it is WIFOM by nature (you could potentially argue that the fact I think this makes it an unlikely scum move actually makes it a likely scum move), but I think this is the kind of thing scum isn't likely to do on a whim (and it would have been on a whim since it happened at the very start of D2). There are safer ways to protect a buddy, and I think it's more likely it would be a last resort sort of thing rather than right out the gates D2 if they're scum together.

[ZeL1nK2]

<snip>

OK. Once again, I wasn't asking for your possible interpretations of why the points for pikari being town are invalid. Anyone can look at a case and say, "oh, well you might be right, but there is also an alternative explanation if he's scum!"

I'm asking for

why

you think the alternative explanation is more likely.

I really cannot understand why I'm having trouble communicating this to you. This isn't a tough concept.

I'm not asking for you to poke holes in a town case. I'm asking for you to make the case that he's scum.

Simply saying, "well, IF he happens to be scum, it was beneficial for him to do it!" does not address the likelihood of him being scum.

Why are his actions scum-motivated? Why was his claim scum-motivated?

I'm not asking what the possible scum motivations were. I'm asking why you think it's more likely to have come from scum.

Like to put this in even simpler terms, let's just say you were arguing that Snowflake-senpai was scum with PV. I'm not asking why it would make sense for him to shoot PV (town-cred), I'm asking why you think it looks like scum shooting a buddy. For example, what actions did he take that would make you think this? What words did he say that gave you this impression? And so on and so forth.

If I'm still not getting through to you, I'm just going to give up on this. I do not think it's difficult to understand what I'm asking for here.

[ZeL1nK2]

His posts, especially in ISO, are all reasoned and there's some very genuine frustration on his part that nobody seems to be evaluating the game and evaluating what he's saying.

There probably is genuine frustration. There would be genuine frustration if he's town or scum.

But saying his posts are all "reasoned" is a stretch. I would guess you haven't actually been following the conversations if you believe this to be true. It would help if you illustrate which of his points you think are "reasoned" and why you think this makes him town.

The sum total of his activities today:

- Changing his mind about mastin based on a claim that, if he was hard scum-reading mastin, makes very little sense.
- Suggesting I'm town for "derp" despite a previous hard scum read on my slot.
- Making a pikari case that has been completely and utterly shut down and shown to be unreasonable.
- Suggesting that TWIE could possibly be scum and therefore nobody should town read him. Despite never explaining why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

This is ignoring all the questions he's refused to answer and such. We're just looking at what you think are "reasoned" points.

[ZeL1nK2]

For anyone that doesn't understand why poking holes in a case without providing your own reasoning is useless and easy to do, give me any case you've ever argued in any game you've previously played, and regardless of how right or wrong that case is, I will poke holes in it easily.

This is a very, very simple thing to do. Anyone can suggest possible alternatives.

This is not productive to the game, however, since you're supposed to look at whether you think the alternatives are likely and, more importantly, why you think those alternatives are likely.

What TSO has been doing this game day phase, especially with regards to TWIE, is nothing more than poking holes in cases. It isn't necessarily scummy, but it's incredibly easy to do as either alignment and it's definitely not a town trait.

Part of my frustration with Heartless right now is because they're doing the exact same thing with pikari. Poking holes in the town case without pushing for reasons their point of view is more likely. Again, this isn't scummy, but it doesn't progress the game in any way.

You're supposed to argue your point of view and explain why your point of view is more likely. This is how you progress a mafia game. I feel all of this should be common sense to anyone who's played more than a handful of mafia games. Anyone can poke holes in a case if they really want to. Anyone can suggest possible scum motivation in any action if they really want to.

What you're supposed to do in a mafia game is look at actions, think about whether you think those actions are more likely to come from town or scum, and then explain why.

I feel I shouldn't really have to explain any of this, but apparently I do.

[ZeL1nK2]

Do you know why I've been asking for TSO to explain the Imperium read?

Do you know why I've been asking for TSO to explain his Heartless read progression?

Do you know why I broke down his pikari case and then asked him to explain why he thinks his interpretation is more likely?

It's because the answers to these things progress the game in some way.

TSO isn't answering these questions.

The last however many pages have all been about suggesting the points about TWIE being town may not be valid, without pushing why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

On top of all the

perfectly valid

points for him being scum, nothing he's doing right now is even hard to do as scum. Suggesting possible alternative explanations is incredibly easy to do - I could make a hobby of it, if I so wished. It would make me an incredibly sad and lonely person, but at least I'd have a hobby.

[ZeL1nK2]

TL;DR TSO isn't actually scum hunting in any meaningful way.

[ZeL1nK2]

Hey Drixx, let's play a game.

Let's break down TSO's pikari read.

Here he explains his pikari scum read. On the following page he follows this up with this post (suggesting that pikari lied about something).

I respond by asking what pikari lied about. He tells me to read. I tell him I have and break down why I think his pikari case is invalid rather succinctly in #7854, #7855 and #7856. Imperium follows this up by pointing out previous games in which pikari has given strong reads very early in the game in #7860 and the following posts.

What was TSO's response to all of this? Here he suggests one of the examples Imperium gave isn't valid. Yes, this is his only response to all of this. His case had been completely deconstructed and shown to be ridiculous at best and his only response is pointing out that one of the examples Imperium gave might not be valid...

Pages later in #8081 he suggests he didn't respond because the point came to a standstill, but pikari is still scum because he used his action on Pumbaa N1. This appears to be the entirety of his current push on pikari. That he used his action on scum. Circumstantial evidence akin to, "you were at the scene of the crime, therefore you did it!"

Tell me what you like about his reasoning here, Drixx.

I can do this for all the things TSO has done today. I can go in depth about all the questions TSO has refused to answer today and why they make no sense from the perspective he's town. I'm legitimately surprised anyone is suggesting thought processes like this come from a town player.

[ZeL1nK2]

I can do this for all the things TSO has done today

. I can go in depth about all the questions TSO has refused to answer today and why they make no sense from the perspective he's town. I'm legitimately surprised anyone is suggesting thought processes like this come from a town player.

The bolded should be amended to, "I can do this for all the things TSO has done today,

again

."

Because I'm really just restating all the things I've already said about him. That you and some others seem to be blind to, for whatever reason.

But hey, whatever.

[ZeL1nK2]

I could not roll my eyes harder than I just did.

[ZeL1nK2]

(1) The claim itself wasn't "townish" unless you were already reading mastin as town. Other people who read the claim were either questioning it or saying it looked suspicious, and they weren't even hard scum-reading mastin. It makes me wonder why you were pushing so hard for mastin's lynch/claim if all it took was a relatively weak claim that is probably mostly true regardless of mastin's alignment.

(2) It's not, though. You'd been scum reading my slot since D1. Only today do you turn around and call it town. Why? #7566 and #7572 indicate I'm apparently too dumb to be scum. I mean if my case on you is so bad and I'm misrepresenting what you're saying, why is it town? Why couldn't I theoretically do this as scum? Do scum just never make cases?

(3) As I pointed out in #8111, the case you wrote on pikari got absolutely demolished. Like, to the point where the exact scenario you wrote would happen if pikari was town (in #7836) actually

DID

happen in this game. Exactly what you said would happen if he was town. You'd know this if your case wasn't baloney. But you didn't even fact-check. All of your other points aren't even valid points. The only one that would actually have any merit in a case is if it's true that pikari lied about reads. What reads did he lie about? You still haven't answered this.

(4) No, it's not. It's called providing no content and pretending you are providing content. You haven't stated a reason for thinking TWIE is scum. All you've done is suggest that people town-reading him don't have rock-solid reasons for doing this. That's not scum hunting. That's poking holes in town cases while providing no scum case. You don't have a scum case on TWIE. You haven't given any reasons to believe TWIE is scum. All you've done for pages and pages is say people shouldn't be town-reading him.

If you legitimately don't understand the difference between giving reasons for someone being scum and poking holes in a town case, then might I suggest you visit this thread, to brush up on your mafia knowledge.

[ZeL1nK2]

Like, TSO.

If you say, "ZeL1nK is town because of massive amounts of derp and because he is handsome and charming!"

And someone else says, "Well, I'll give you the handsome and charming points, but massive amounts of derp don't make him town! He could still be scum derping!"

Is that someone scum hunting? Is that someone providing content? Is that someone doing anything to argue their point? What worth is that someone's opinion? That someone isn't even explaining why they think I'm scum. They're just telling you that you could be wrong. Whoop-de-doo. No case, ever, is air-tight.

Every action in a mafia game that comes from an unconfirmed player could theoretically come from town or scum. The fact that you can think of ways to poke holes in a town case does not mean you're scum hunting.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'll say the same thing I said to Heartless.

If someone were to say, "I think it's unlikely Snowflake-senpai is scum because he shot PV and I don't think that was a gambit. The way it happened came across as town-looking."

And you were to say, "No, I think he's scum. Snowflake-senpai could have been gambiting."

You're not doing anything in the way of giving reasons for thinking your stance is correct. You're just stating a possibility. That's not scum hunting. That's not even giving reasons for your read. It's like going, "well this guy could be scum because I can think of a reason he'd do something as scum, so I'm going to call him scum!" That's all your point boils down to.

You may as well say, "well X voted Y and I could see scum voting Y so X is scum!"

That's the extent of your argument.

This is basic stuff.

Go back to Road to Rome if you do not understand this.

[ZeL1nK2]

The way a mafia game works is you talk about actions and you talk about why you think an action is

more likely

to come from town or scum.

What you're doing is saying actions could come from scum. This is pointless. Any action could come from scum. You're not describing why you think the actions are more likely to come from scum. You're just suggesting it could have come from scum. No doo-doo. Do you want a medal?

So, for example, when you say, "well, Blonde could have done what he did as scum!" you're not providing any worthwhile content. At all. You're not looking at it and saying, "well, I see your points and I understand why you think his action makes more sense from the perspective he's town, but I think the scenario in which he's scum makes more sense because..." You're doing nothing like that. You're just saying he could be scum. BIG DEAL.

[ZeL1nK2]

Says the person who also seems to find it incomprehensible that I could be town ...?

Yes, I think you're scum. I've analysed your actions, talked about your motivations, and described why I think your behaviour is more likely to come from scum than town.

You've said, "well, TWIE could be scum."

Whooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Ground-breaking theory there. Thanks for your valuable input.

[ZeL1nK2]

It's not even worth continuing this discussion.

At this point we're just waiting for FourTrouble to show up so you can actually be lynched.

If you ever feel like pretending you're town, go ahead and actually talk about your reads. I doubt you'll do this, though.

You're either scum or someone who doesn't understand how to play mafia. I'm hoping it's the former, I'd feel bad for picking on you if it's the latter.

[ZeL1nK2]

Tigers happened.

[ZeL1nK2]

I actually wrote out a response to that wall, but I'm not going to post it here.

TSO,

If you're going to respond to anything I write, respond to this or don't bother responding to anything else;

Write a paragraph or two explaining why you think each of your current scum reads is scum.

Or don't. Whatever.

[ZeL1nK2]

Your phraseology is lacking, I'm afraid. You keep using the phrase "poke holes", but that's not what's really going on; they say "A is town because they did B", and I reply "B has just as much scum motivation as town." Therefore, they should then revise their townread on A, because it's ill-founded. In TWIE's case, when I do this, my final response ends up being something like "He's done nothing town, he may not be particularly scummy, but there's no reason to think he's town. Lurking, no content, isn't going to remedy either. FOURTROUBLE!" And I'm completely okay with doing that; I feel in a game with the town PR's have, it's a completely legitimate form of scumhunting. It's not "poking holes". That implies something completely different to what I'm doing.

Two things here.

(1) If this is your reason for thinking TWIE is scum, how is it any better than the reasons you were suggesting were invalid when used against you? (Also, this is the first time you've given reasons for your TWIE read.)

(2) No matter how you twist it, suggesting an alternative without explaining why it's more likely is not talking about motivation. Refer to the Snowflake-senpai example, for instance. Or, I dunno, to use another example, you could suggest that someone who's been having lots of arguments with scum and pushing scum all game and whatnot was just bussing... But then all you're doing is suggesting an alternative without explaining why it's more likely to be the case.

[ZeL1nK2]

And speaking of lurking, no content, not going to remedy either, I would also like to see your Ace town read explained, since that's another read you were asked about but never explained.

[ZeL1nK2]

Oh, and if possible, I would like to see the answer to the question I've asked several times now:

You mentioned, at one point, that you would be surprised if both Imperium and Heartless were town. This suggests a scum read (or at least a read that is far from a town read) on Heartless.

What were the reasons for that if you're no longer scum reading Heartless?

[ZeL1nK2]

That makes me want to consider other options.

Just to spite you.

[ZeL1nK2]

No, not really. pikari's play isn't great by any means, but that doesn't really constitute "falsifying reads".

[ZeL1nK2]

The second and third quotes don't say what you're saying they say.

[ZeL1nK2]

Though this is something you should be asking pikari to explain, not me.

[ZeL1nK2]

I told you you could ask whatever questions you wanted in the neighborhood. Though you apparently never read that.

TL;DR A few people want to lynch TSO, a couple people want to lynch pikari, a couple people don't want to lynch anyone, and a third of the game isn't here.

[ZeL1nK2]

FourTrouble - 6 days 18 hours

No. No, we are not there yet.

[ZeL1nK2]

Not a lot happened D1. At least not a lot that could be summarised. You would have to read it for yourself

if you're a masochist

. I mean, it's good for getting reads but it's not the kind of stuff you can summarise since nothing eventful actually happened. There were a lot of small wagons that ended up going nowhere. Then as the deadline approached everyone piled on AP. The end.

D2 had a lot more things happen.

D3 was less interesting than D1. D4 is a quagmire.

[ZeL1nK2]

Yeah because stuff happened. It's slowed down, though. You don't have to read it but it would be nice to hear from you every now and then. Let us know you're doing OK. How your day was. You know, stuff.

[ZeL1nK2]

There's a suggestion that the second post there doesn't make sense unless you're scum reading TSO.

For example, why did you not think Heartless was white-knighting TSO? Why did you think scum with TSO?

[ZeL1nK2]

I agree with Nacho's sentiments.

[ZeL1nK2]

Are you implying that Imperium is Germany and that Germany were good guys trying to get rid of the evil Polish empire?

Because I don't think that's how it went down in history.

[ZeL1nK2]

I dunno, I was just trying to make sense of your analogy.

[ZeL1nK2]

That sounds like propaganda promoted by the scum team.

It's unlikely to be historically accurate if your analogy holds any water.

[ZeL1nK2]

Yeah, Nacho. Answer the question, Nacho.

[ZeL1nK2]

Snowflake could be scum, but I'm not so sure group-scum makes sense anymore. But he is like Gollum. Probably not much of a threat as long as you're not caught unawares. Though I'm hoping pikari doesn't give him the precious.

Are you going to talk about your reads in any depth or is that still happening when you "feel like it"?

[ZeL1nK2]

Or, as I've said, one of {TWIE, vezok, you} should have scum in it.

One... of...?

[ZeL1nK2]

You actually haven't talked about your Imperium read much (at all?).

[ZeL1nK2]

Yeah, I'm going back over all your posts in this day phase and I cannot find where you've come even close to stating a reason for your Imperium read. You've just called them scum over and over. The closest I can come to maybe finding a reason if I stretch really, really hard is that maybe you don't like their arguments about you being scum? Or something?

[ZeL1nK2]

I, personally, would prefer a TSO lynch to any others right now.

But I'm not in any super rush to end the day if the people who were previously inactive have decided to come back and do stuff.

[ZeL1nK2]

There's not much to skim today.

Mastin claimed. But it's still a "trust me, ZZZX is town" thing.

The rest of the day has been largely dominated by arguments about TSO being scum and arguments about pikari being scum. There's really not much else worthwhile that's happened today, so any catch-up you do, you're better off just skipping this day phase and doing whatever interaction analysis you were going to do.

[ZeL1nK2]

Even though I disagree with the above (well, not the reasoning, just the read itself), I'd like to note that this reaction and the ones below...

mastin's grand reveal was not so grand after all.

i am going "meh" rather "wow"

meh

... are sensible reactions to mastin's claim if you weren't town-reading mastin.

Not TSO's "bees must be town!"

#ConvinceTSOHeIsScum

[ZeL1nK2]

er.. left this quote out.

I was hoping more from mastin then what I got and frankly I'm not a fan of her actions thus far.

[ZeL1nK2]

Mastin claimed. But it's still a "trust me, ZZZX is town" thing.

Do you believe anything i did in general makes me appear scum?

No, it's things you're not doing that make me think you're not town.

Though this becomes a lot less likely if TSO is scum because I don't really think your interactions make sense as scum together.

[ZeL1nK2]

If TSO flips scum, please vig the TAOS slot. Do dramonic a favour. And just put the slot out of its misery.

[ZeL1nK2]

Quick post: It is probably a good idea to lynch TSO even if it doesn't go through. More later.

[ZeL1nK2]

I think we should just (try to) lynch TSO today.

Unless he's willing to full-claim and explain the unlynchable/unkillable mechanic, I'm just going to advocate lynching him until he's dead. I doubt scum have a permanently unlynchable/unkillable role, so I would guess he's (at most) 1-shot unlynchable, if he's not outright lying about his role.

I also don't believe dramonic saw fit to include a town role that is unlynchable/unkillable and automatically wins for town at lylo.

[ZeL1nK2]

It doesn't automatically win at LyLo. My plan was to create a scenario where I was online along with someone I felt strongly was scum, somehow derp into self-voting, get them to hammer, ask them 2 or 3 of their scum members, which would create multiple consecutive scum lynches.

This seems like the least thought-out plan I've ever seen.

Ignoring all possibilities where it's mostly town involved in your lynch or possibilities where scum don't tell you this information (eg all scenarios in a role madness game where scum aren't brain-dead), this fails simply because in, for example, a 4:3 LyLo, if your lynch ends the day then scum could potentially kill anyone but you and outright win via numbers, barring shenanigans preventing a night kill or killing one of them.

[ZeL1nK2]

If TSO is telling the truth about his role and dayvig shots reset (whatever that means), then presumably Snowflake and FourTrouble get their shots back and we can get two shots and a different lynch in today?

I'm tired and busy and I may not be understanding something here. BBL

[ZeL1nK2]

Or does he mean if a dayvig shoots him they get their shot back?

In which case, meh.

[ZeL1nK2]

He was already lynched but your extra vote is appreciated because, like One Direction merchandise, you can never have too many votes.

[ZeL1nK2]

If you want to join a game I IC in the Newbie Queue, I can give you some tips on reading the game.

Thank you, that would be appreciated.

Still, even if your lynch did not end the day, it was a silly plan where (if you're town) a lot of things over the course of the game would have had to go in your favour for it to work out. And this isn't even including the fact that you could be voted by mostly town players if you're playing in such a way where your lynch was guaranteed in LyLo, or the possibility that scum aren't going to reveal their master plans to you just because they think you're lynched (especially in a role madness game where so many different possibilities could prevent a lynch from occurring - heck, if I were scum in this game, I'd be hesitant to even be on a wagon in LyLo unless I felt it absolutely necessary), or possibilities where even if you weren't lynched and scum was lynched they could still get a win (for example, if Pumbaa was still alive in a LyLo situation like 4:3, even if scum other than him was lynched that day, he could theoretically bring it to 2:2 the following day if kills weren't prevented - and this isn't including other scum roles that might be useful in or around LyLo).

Also, it seems you don't even know if your ability has been used or not, so you were making the assumption that you would survive until a LyLo situation

and

still have the ability at your disposal. Because if, for example, scum had a brain-fart and decided to kill you N1 and that was the reason for the missing kill, your EPIC LYLO PLAN may have been all for naught. Or you could have been killed further down the line, or a vig could have taken a shot at you, or any of a myriad of possibilities. You know the first thing I'd have asked dramonic when thinking up a plan like that? "Am I informed if this ability is triggered via night kill?"

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't know why people don't get why I don't trust you.

I don't get why you don't trust me.

[ZeL1nK2]

Plus I'm pretty sure TSO is trying to counterclaim my deathproof.

So I'm recounterclaiming his counterclaim.

I would like it if you were to claim the mechanics around your deathproof ability if TSO's lynch doesn't end the day.

A preemptive request: please don't be coy and act like your role is so important that you shouldn't do this.

btw, has anyone noticed there seems to be lots of duplicate roles with variations in this game? Ank was a redirector role , sky's claiming a redirector role; vezok claimed doc; mask was a doc; multiple vig variations; etc.

Yes, by the very nature of the game (role madness - it would be rather hard to design a 25-player role madness game without overlaps and probably rather tedious, too), I'm expecting a lot of role overlaps. Some of them will be town-town overlaps, some of them might be scum-town overlaps.

Overlapping roles doesn't necessarily mean there has to be scum among them. It's

probably

not useful to speculate which role overlaps are more likely to be town-town and which are more likely to be scum-town, unless you have reason to believe you know what dramonic was thinking with that aspect of the design.

[ZeL1nK2]

Any body want to talk about Metal Sonic? I was scum reading him before he vigged Pere. At that point almost everyone (including me) called him town. But there is still something about his play that really bugs me. I keep wondering if the hit on Pere was to give him conftown status. I read his analysis of Cephrir posts and couldn't make heads or tales out of it. It makes me feel like he wanted to show he was doing something without really having to do something.

I've devoted at least two, maybe three full pages in the neighborhood to discussing (well, I say discussing, but it's more like my one-sided ranting) Snowflake-senpai and issues I have with his play, his approach to the game and forming reads, his multiple requests for protection (to the point of almost begging for it) and different minor things here and there. None of it has leaked into the main thread because the conclusion I came to was that he's most likely third party (if he's even scum at all, because I could just be overly paranoid) and I don't think he's an immediate threat. That said, there's a reason I've been requesting pikari (and anyone else, really) don't use protective roles on Snowflake-senpai. If group-scum want to kill him, let them, in my opinion.

[ZeL1nK2]

ZeL1nk, why the fuck would scum nk me n1 if I did nothing?

There are a number of reasons scum might shoot someone. Perhaps scum feared your scum hunting abilities and deemed you a threat.

OK, I can't say that with a straight face, but you're nitpicking here rather than addressing the actual point. Which was the final part of that paragraph.

[ZeL1nK2]

Er... It's not about whether or not he

would

do it, but for your plan to work, it kind of requires that he does do it.

I mean, to put it more conscisely, your plan relied on you still having the ability at LyLo and you don't even know if you still have it, apparently. At least that is the inference I'm making from #8345. I mean you're assuming you have it, but by the time LyLo comes around, if you were still alive, there's no guarantee you'd still have the ability.

So you could have automatically lost the game for town at LyLo if you're town.

I think you would have realised this if you were town. But no.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'm saying if I were town-you who thought up this LyLo plan, I would do it on the basis of

knowing

I still have the ability.

If I do not know, then this plan possibly fails before it can even be put in motion.

Which is why I'd ask dramonic whether or not I'm informed, and if I'm not informed then I would scrap the plan.

[ZeL1nK2]

Like, I understand your preferred method of scum hunting is "lets try to make it look like NOTHING he said is EVER right!!!" which is, funny, I guess? But at the same time, makes you look like a tryhard imbecile.

TSO

I would just like you to know that even if you think my name is Maximus Derpus Imbecilius, commander of the armies of the dumb, general of the moron legions, loyal servant to the true scum lord, Imperium... I love you and I think you're a pretty cool guy. And as much as I'm trying hard to get you lynched, I just want you to know that I love you outside of the fact that I think you're a scummy bad guy who needs to die a mercilessly painful death.

[ZeL1nK2]

What would happen if we tried to lynch you again today?

[ZeL1nK2]

Imagine it was me with his claimed role.
Imagine me making the same type of post.
Does it still fit?

No. For reasons you'll see I make clear if you actually read on.

Though you're free to give your opinion on 8376/8377 and what you would have done as town.

[ZeL1nK2]

But even apart from the point I mentioned about him not knowing whether he still has it (or would still have it at LyLo), I also doubt any town player is really silly enough to think that (a) that would definitely work, and (b) that scum wouldn't have ways to demolish town in lylo even if it did work (see, for example, if Pumbaa was still alive and the scum team could perform two kills a night).

[ZeL1nK2]

The plan also assumes a lack of third party roles to interfere.

I mean there are just so many things wrong with that plan it's not funny and the fact you're town-reading TSO for it is hilarious to me.

He did not think that plan through. I think he made it up without much thought. Town with his role is far more likely to consider all the possible ways that could go wrong. TSO-scum, on the other hand, probably didn't consider all the flaws in his plan because he's not thinking like a town player.

[ZeL1nK2]

claiming unlynchable/unkillable will only make people want to lynch you or kill you.
i speak from experience

So do I.
I also speak from experience when I say said claims are exponentially (save for AP) more likely to be from TOWN.

Yes because scum who is being run up and actually has that role are going to lie about it...

[ZeL1nK2]

No, what I'm saying is I don't think you're a moron, but I do think you could be scum who isn't thinking like town.

[ZeL1nK2]

To be clear, I'm saying I think you-as-scum may have put like 5 minutes thought into it at some point and said to yourself, "yeah, this maybe makes sense as something I might think as town with this role."

What I don't believe is you-as-town having your role for what? 2.5 months? And not considering all the possible ways that plan could go wrong.

[ZeL1nK2]

Well TSO has been "hammered" and we've been waiting about 40 hours for dramonic to acknowledge this.

[ZeL1nK2]

Who would you like to lynch today, dear TSO?

[ZeL1nK2]

I'm not particularly interested in lynching Ooba. Or pikari. I'm not sure about Heartless, but most ill feelings I have towards that slot are in relation to TSO. I'm not fond of an Espeonage wagon.

I could lynch TAOS today.

[ZeL1nK2]

After the Pumbaa flip, I put him down as town due to interactions. I've talked about this briefly in different parts of the neighborhood, but the last conversation I had about it was where I basically said #6201 is a town post. Partially because of what Skybird wrote but more because of the Pumbaa quote in that post. I recall talking about other things, too, but they're buried like 20 pages back in the neighborhood.

I don't think Skybird is the strongest, loudest player that ever played mafia, but I'm not unhappy with the explanations she's given for different things this game. I don't have any real issues with her and I don't think she's scum with Pumbaa.

[ZeL1nK2]

Well, you could have just asked us not to call you ever, you don't have to be mean.

[ZeL1nK2]

Because he's third party? Or is he group-scum?

[ZeL1nK2]

So you think Imperium, my master, the scum lord, the slayer of innocents and defiler of all that is sacred and town, has a grand plan that involves not wanting to get rid of a potential threat and would rather push a mislynch on a useless slot?

Who's the scum team, again? And why are they not better lynches?

[ZeL1nK2]

Can someone who wasn't previously voting TSO try voting him just because why not? Someone like Drixx, who isn't doing anything with his vote, anyway. I don't think it will do anything, but it can't hurt.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'm just ruling out possibilities. I plan to vote TSO if I'm alive tomorrow (which is likely if my master Imperium, wrecker of dreams, destroyer of purity, ravager of all that is nice and wonderful in this world of ours deems me worthy) as well, if it wasn't already obvious.

It's not all that likely he's lying, but it cannot hurt to test things.

[ZeL1nK2]

Interactions with known scum

Elaborate.

[ZeL1nK2]

Is that based on actually analysing all the interactions and arriving at the conclusion he's scum or is the interaction you're talking about, "he claims to have used his role on Pumbaa"?

[ZeL1nK2]

If it might actually convince people to think about it, I'll dig back through the ISO and pull stuff out in context and show why he reads scummy to me.

If you give me something to think about, then I'll think about it.

I don't really see you convincing people to think about it by not doing this, though, so if you believe he's scum then it's better to do it than not, no?

I mean, the main point of contention here is whether pikari-scum-with-Pumbaa says what he's said about Pumbaa D1 and then outright claims to have protected Pumbaa after no kill D2. I haven't talked in as much detail about why I don't really see the former as scum-scum, but I have talked a lot about the latter. If you disagree, why? Do you think Heartless is right and it was for temporary-at-best town credit?

[ZeL1nK2]

By the way, mastin, when you get around to it, could you talk a little about your Espeonage read and where it's coming from?

Is it just the fact that he's not (or wasn't and kind of still isn't) playing the game?

[ZeL1nK2]

Claim makes no sense whatsoever.

Which is precisely why it's true!

Trust me.

If TSO is scum, he either lucked out to an

exponentially

huge degree, or is an absolute master, ab.so.lute.

master

. of faking town-didn't-think-this-through.

Or, far, far, FAR more likely?

He is ACTUALLY town.

What is the difference between town-didn't-think-this-through and scum-didn't-think-this-through?

[ZeL1nK2]

Why was the TSO vote bad?

I see nothing wrong with testing things, especially given dramonic said literally nothing about what happened with the TSO wagon.

[ZeL1nK2]

I mean, pretty much the closest thing I can so much as THINK of as being scum not thinking things through is beastcharizard claiming the same fakeclaim his flipped scumbuddy did in Sabotage. (Haha, yeah, go ahead and laugh, I didn't lynch him for it. In my defense, I lynched Ceph, though, and he was more threatening scum.)

This actually happens quite a lot. I've seen it in at least two other games.

I don't think it's as non-existent as you're making it out to be, either. So many times, for example, I've seen scum try to fake-claim something like hider when, looking back through their ISO, there's absolutely nothing that indicates their play makes any sense as a hider.

Sometimes scum are meticulous in their planning. Sometimes they make stuff up on the fly and hope nobody notices inconsistencies.

[ZeL1nK2]

I see this plan as an extension of fake-claiming a role that doesn't make sense, only I do believe he has the role, I just don't think he's thought it through like a town player with his role would.

I think he thought about it in a surface-level way and didn't think people would examine it close enough to spot the many inconsistencies.

The alternative here is he's had his role for 2.5 months and hasn't thought about all the ways his super-awesome-amazing-mega-fantastic-epic plan of win was possibly destined to fail.

[ZeL1nK2]

Or, like claiming cop and then going, "Oh, I investigated X on N1" and then having people point out that the way you interacted with X on D2 wasn't like that of a cop with an inno (very common).

Or, like any of the hundreds of other ways scum fake-claiming can often be caught (and don't tell me it doesn't happen often... maybe certain players are less likely to be caught, but not everyone thinks through every detail and verifies that it makes sense).

[ZeL1nK2]

No, they're not vastly different. They show a lack of forethought and planning. Or a lack of paying attention to the game. This can happen on any scale.

If you're telling me you've never seen scum say, "oh well I was planning to do this and this but things didn't work out!" then you probably have a bad memory of you're blissfully unaware of how many scum players make rudimentary mistakes.

[ZeL1nK2]

Testing a claim isn't mind-blowingly idiotic.

I would know. I am an expert on idiotic stuff, apparently.

You're a mere amateur in comparison, so maybe you should listen to someone who knows what they're talking about when it comes to stupid.

[ZeL1nK2]

I do, but I feel it's scummy that you're pointing that out.

[ZeL1nK2]

It's not about whether we can lynch him today, I'm just looking at possibilities like, "people voting you can no longer vote you this day phase."

Of course this means we can't lynch him today, but if this a different day phase with double-votes in play, it would be a different story. I know he can't be lynched today, I'm just testing different possibilities because there's nothing to actually lose from testing it.

[ZeL1nK2]

...

Firstly, it's not like Drixx was doing anything else with his vote, so I'm not harming the game state in any way.

Secondly, there is no harm in testing possibilities.

Thirdly, there is no "role-fishing" going on here.

At worst, nothing happens and I move on happy that I can rule something out. At best, we find out TSO was lying. I don't think this is likely, but it does not hurt to find out.

[ZeL1nK2]

To be perfectly honest, I don't care at all what you consider me to be.

[ZeL1nK2]

If it might actually convince people to think about it, I'll dig back through the ISO and pull stuff out in context and show why he reads scummy to me.

If you give me something to think about, then I'll think about it.

I don't really see you convincing people to think about it by not doing this, though, so if you believe he's scum then it's better to do it than not, no?

I mean, the main point of contention here is whether pikari-scum-with-Pumbaa says what he's said about Pumbaa D1 and then outright claims to have protected Pumbaa after no kill D2. I haven't talked in as much detail about why I don't really see the former as scum-scum, but I have talked a lot about the latter. If you disagree, why? Do you think Heartless is right and it was for temporary-at-best town credit?

[ZeL1nK2]

I would have liked to see a replacement for that slot but I have no issues with lynching it regardless. Other than the fact that people seem opposed to "lurker" lynches so I don't even know if there'd be enough support for it.

Then again, with how many people aren't playing the game at the moment, it's hard to gauge how much support there is for any lynch.

[ZeL1nK2]

I suppose you're right and a lack of scum pushes makes someone scum.

Which scum have you pushed, by the way?

[ZeL1nK2]

I actually would still like you to specify whether your death-proof mechanic is the same or different from TSO's.

[ZeL1nK2]

Yeah. Awesome. Because you've been so helpful this game, what with your... I don't remember what else you've done outside of asking not to be shot by a vig, actually... I guess it was silly of me to not realise you were joking in a role madness game with multiple duplicate roles. And you've been so direct and straight-forward the entire game, I guess I just should have assumed you were being serious in those posts. My bad. But in hindsight, claiming deathproof was a really hilarious joke so ha ha, good one. I can always count on you for a good laugh, TWIE.

Could you remind me what your reads are?

[ZeL1nK2]

Role reasons are the only legitimate reason you shouldn't be vig killed. I'm sorry for assuming you had legitimate reasons to not want a shot wasted on you.

Please continue to be your ever-helpful self. I appreciate all the effort you've put into this game.

[ZeL1nK2]

If I'm lynching for uselessness, I'd lynch the Ace slot before I lynch TWIE.

There's a myriad of players being useless in this game, though. It's incredibly fun to play with. I look forward to opening this thread every day.

[ZeL1nK2]

ooba, do you have anything that supports the assertions you're making there?

For example, "Pumbaa doesn't like bussing, or if he was going to bus he would do it differently, therefore it's unlike ace is scum with him"? Or something along those lines?

Because it looks like you're asserting it as a statement of fact with no real backing.

Why, for example, if Pumbaa suggested one of his partners as scum could he not suggest two? You seem to be suggesting PV was a bluff of sorts and he was hoping to get town-Ace killed or something. And if you're not suggesting this, then the assertion makes little sense.

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't see Ceph going "Here shoot scumbuddy A or scumbuddy B. Also, three more additional names".

I'm not suggesting PV was a bluff. PV was there so that if he was shot, Ceph's ISO looks better. Do not see him consistently recommending ace scum buddy like that.

Also, noticed that you didn't talk much about the stronger points of both scum jumping onto the wagon. In what doesn't appear to look like buses. (Again personal opinion - but this is what the game is about - look at interactions and take a call)

Sorry. When I mentioned the line in quotation marks, I was including the votes on the wagon.

I'm trying to understand why you think Pumbaa is unlikely to do that.

Or whether it's a more general, "scum don't usually do this." In which case, eh, it's not really convincing. I mean, Pumbaa also jumped onto the PV wagon in similar vein, though I suppose it was a smaller wagon and maybe he was counting on it never coming to fruition.

I might go revisit the PV vote and the circumstances around it, but the Pumbaa stuff you've brought up boils down to, "I don't think Pumbaa would keep recommending his scum buddy as a vig shot," and I don't think you have any real basis for assuming this other than perhaps that it's something you wouldn't personally do.

[ZeL1nK2]

Do you have anything so far from the flipped scum that supports assertions that ace is scum?

No.

It's not a read based on interactions, though. It's a read based on POE (stronger town reads elsewhere) and play (while there are things I could see coming from town, there's nothing there that I couldn't see coming from scum). In particular, I didn't like his posts D3, which were entirely "let's lynch mastin". Nothing else in the way of content.

Also I'm making some assumptions about the reason he flaked - specifically because his scum team isn't doing so great (especially if TSO is scum). But these assumptions may or may not be relevant so I'm not going to push them as reasons for thinking he's scum - they're still affecting my personal opinion of that slot.

[ZeL1nK2]

To be clear, it's not a read based on interactions because I don't feel strongly about the interactions one way or another.

[ZeL1nK2]

You're not a no one. You're special to me and you shouldn't put yourself down like that.

[ZeL1nK2]

Either way, F-16 started off suspicion on Ceph yet again and Vezok defends Ceph with the 'He was the kill'.

I still don't see the supposed scum motivation behind this.

Any potential town credit it bought for Pumbaa would be immediately nullified when someone else claimed a plausible explanation for the lack of night kill/s.

Not to mention this still glosses over the fact that the scum kill is missing and they know it. They know their kill was actually stopped by something. Taking credit for a lack of kill when you know your kill was legitimately stopped by someone else doesn't make a lot of sense (except maybe as a way of drawing out a claim or something? I don't think so much thought was put into it, though).

For the risks associated with it (potential counter-claims, tying yourself to a scum buddy, etc), it doesn't seem like a worthwhile thing to do as scum with Pumbaa. I mean, I've seen some incredibly silly things come from scum along these lines so it's not an impossibility, I guess. I just don't think it's a likelihood.

You’re a doctor who just think you’ve saved Ceph from a scum kill. Why the need to breadcrumb that info “Ceph: thank me later.” in your first post of the day and reveal that you’re the doc to any scum?

No offense to pikari, but he doesn't seem like the most forward-thinking, thoughtful player.

This is unrelated but Vezok's been on EVERY SINGLE WAGON - including my own.

Eh. I've never really thought of wagon-hopping as scum-motivated behaviour (specifically because it draws attention to you and requires you to back up a number of stances you wouldn't otherwise have to).

[ZeL1nK2]

An addendum to that first part. Claiming to help Pumbaa out also assumes people would buy into the theory that scum tried to kill Pumbaa (who, as you've acknowledged, was a rather controversial player). And while some people did actually buy into this, I don't recall seeing it as a majority opinion and, again, their kill

was

stopped so there is guaranteed to be at least one more plausible explanation for the lack of kill.

[ZeL1nK2]

I'll read over the pikari interactions again, because it's been a while since I visited them.

I do not believe his actions make sense as scum, but that's from the perspective of what I consider optimal play, and I acknowledge that not all players make decisions based on optimal play.

[ZeL1nK2]

How did you find that quote and not notice the two posts immediately afterwards where he clearly says "yesterday"

[ZeL1nK2]

My current theory is he tried to use it on TD towards the very end of the day phase and only noticed it didn't work in the final votecount.

[ZeL1nK2]

By the way, if I had to guess, he used the ability on TD some time after the lie detector gambit (which would have meant some time in the last 24 hours of D1).

He probably didn't notice anything was wrong until after D1 ended.

[ZeL1nK2]

Thank you for the kind advice.

[ZeL1nK2]

Are you going to read parts of the thread without specific direction?

[ZeL1nK2]

I cannot think of a reason it would be detrimental outside of the reason any claim ever might be considered "detrimental".

You would not be the first person in game to claim actions.

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't think he was asking for a full claim, just claiming your actions so far.

[ZeL1nK2]

full claim

I couldn't if I wanted to. In his haste, our dear moderator has given me no more than my basic role PM, so I'm not entirely sure what actions I've taken, if any.

Unless you're just asking me to full-claim that, in which case I'm going to politely decline. Again, even if I wanted to, I'd have to check with our dear moderator to make sure of how explicit I can be.

What exactly did dramonic give you upon joining the game? Did he not give you your previous night actions?

Precisely what I said he gave me (a role PM).

No actions or other information that might have been useful to know. I've been left to fend for myself in a cage full of lions. Isn't that just cruel?

He literally just forwarded me what I assume was the original message to TD, since it contains a time and date from two weeks ago with no additional information and says it's a forwarded message in the title.

But, yes, this is the kind of thing I'm likely to lie about, Metal Sonic. You've seen right through me. I should have known it was foolish to try and sneak past your acute detective skills.

I would have hoped dramonic would not do that again, though.

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't really feel one way or another about Otolia's entrance, though I'm having trouble seeing "claim actions" confused with "claim everything about yourself, from your role to what you ate for breakfast this morning and what you're currently wearing".

[ZeL1nK2]

On paper, I understand and even agree with some of the points you're making about ooba. It's part of why I felt his posts weren't town-looking when I first started reading the game. But I do think it's more playstyle than alignment-related.

I'm not sold on him being town, but I don't feel he's going to flip scum.

I think the posts about neighborhood/role speculation is probably something scum is more likely to keep to themselves (and I could very well see town who is keeping track of these things looking for holes in claims and stuff like that; it is something I might have done if I were in the game from the beginning).

I do agree that the way he's rereading the game didn't really seem to have any relevant direction, I'm just not sure I see scum bothering with that. I mean, granted ooba is in potential danger of being lynched today and may have felt a need to "look town" but eh.

Honestly, I don't remember why I had ooba as town except that I remember liking his posts D1 and I remember liking some of his posts at the start of D2 and his reactions at the end of D2.

I probably need to think about this game a bit more because most of my reads right now are just... there. I haven't thought about and reassessed them for a long time because I dread having to go back over ISOs in this bog of a game.

If you swapped ooba and TSO, mnemonic and Otolia, and reordered it a little (Imperium is far higher on my list than yours, for example), you'd be pretty close to where I'm at on this game.

I'll probably lynch from within {Otolia, Heartless, TWIE} today, but they're not super-amazing strong scum reads so much as, "eh, I could see them being scum and I don't really care if they die." I might read over ooba again just to re-affirm or re-assess that read as well. And maybe read over some others depending on how much time I have and how much I loathe myself and feel I need to self-flagellate.

[ZeL1nK2]

@ZeL1nK:

UNVOTE: Ooba
VOTE: Heartless

Eh. I'm not doing anything else with my vote anyway, so I'll put it here while I'm reading.

VOTE: Heartless

[ZeL1nK2]

UNVOTE: Heartless

I'm thinking about some things.

I M P E R I U M

Neighborhood, please.

[ZeL1nK2]

What does that do?

[ZeL1nK2]

I wish you didn't do that. It doesn't exactly help your case.

I've been trying to get a conversation going with one of the Imperium heads but they're both busy or MIA.

I don't really think you're scum at the moment, but you're not exactly doing yourself any favours.

What are your thoughts on Ace-slot (Otolia)?

[ZeL1nK2]

If you're reading passive-aggression in my tone, then you should probably not pretend you know how to read tone.

[ZeL1nK2]

I wasn't talking about my personal read in #8727, but the overall game state. As in, I don't think the people voting you are going to take kindly to being voteless, so you're not doing yourself any favours with that action. Especially if they remain voteless for the rest of the day and it becomes even harder to get a lynch.

[ZeL1nK2]

I wasn't talking about today.

[ZeL1nK2]

Except for the part where I said it's going to be hard to achieve a lynch.

So I was talking about today but I also wasn't talking about today.

I'm really deep like that.

[ZeL1nK2]

Yes, the scum flip that's going to require pretty much every player in the game who can still vote joining you on if you happen to be right about him.

#ForwardThinking

[ZeL1nK2]

Sure.

Well, good luck with that, I guess.

[ZeL1nK2]

See: #8744 for what I described in #8727.

[ZeL1nK2]

I don't fucking care about helping my case, that move was so antitown that it wrapped around to protown and then went right back to antitown. That's close to "fuck you guys who think I'm scum here let me post my role pm territory."

From Antihero and TTH, both of whom are not fucking amateurs at this game and know exactly what they're doing and what it meant.

No, that's just fucking bullshit.

No I meant Heartless isn't doing himself any favours by doing what he did if he's town. #8744 is an example of that. I understand your frustration (though I'm not sold on Heartless-scum).

By the way, Heartless, if you think I have a lot of posts in the game thread, I have double the amount in my neighborhood (granted, not all of it is game-relevant since we've played somewhere between 10-20 games of hangman, but still). If you think I have very little to show for it, then so be it. I don't really care. I'm not throwing my every thought into the game thread because it's not exactly fruitful to do so. I don't think I'm flooding the game thread with posts that aren't relevant to the game, either. And I don't really know what you mean by "coasting on everyone else's hate" but I'll assume that means something in Heartlessville and nod at your point as if it means something.

[ZeL1nK2]

Actually if it's "everyone who is currently voting Heartless" then I unvoted shortly before he did that.

Which still means if the vote threshold is the same, it requires 9 of the remaining 11 votes in play to achieve a lynch. Which essentially means voting one of the people who was voting Heartless or somehow getting every player but one to agree on a lynch outside that wagon.

It is still not a great scenario.

Thank you very much, Heartless.

#ForwardThinking

[ZeL1nK2]

Heartless, could you give me a summary of where your reads are at now?

[ZeL1nK2]

Magua, I am aware scum can do that, too. I have seen scum make similar plays before.

I do not, however, think he is necessarily scum for it.

[ZeL1nK2]

Again, it's "claim actions", not "claim your deepest, darkest secrets"

[ZeL1nK2]

FourTrouble full-claimed D2 when it looked like he was about to be lynched, so worst-case scenario, the slot verifies its actions. There's literally no harm even if you think it's "not necessary".

Have you finished whatever analysis you were doing on previous days, by the way?

[ZeL1nK2]

Presumably that FourTrouble is close to confirmed town and may have been hiding information from town when he claimed.

I don't think that's the case but whatever.

[ZeL1nK2]

I have faith in TWIE leading town to victory as a treestump because he is a very good player and scum are doomed if they cannot silence him.

Good game scum, but I'm afraid your hopes of a win have been dashed with this revelation.

[ZeL1nK2]

VOTE: Otolia

[ZeL1nK2]

Heartless meanwhile may as well just have claimed scum in the thread and people are all "oh antihero and tth, what scamps"

I am thinking about it thus:

It has possible scum motivation, if they thought doing it would make them look town in "scum-would-never-do-something-so-utterly-bad" kind of fashion. Do I think this is the case? Probably not. At the very least, it's always going to be a blemish against them and they're not going to survive long in the game if they don't do incredibly town-looking stuff. What's the town motivation? None. But I don't think it was an act with an alignment-driven agenda in mind.

They could be scum and it could have been a scum move. I would say look elsewhere for reasons to think they're scum instead of harping on this one thing.

At the very least, if they continue playing like they've been playing lately, I would not be at all disappointed if they are lynched at some point. But I currently don't think they're scum.

[ZeL1nK2]

Been busy.

Reading later.

[ZeL1nK2]

Otolia,

Have you used your ability today and what happens if you try to use it on someone who has a vote? Or someone who doesn't have a vote?

[ZeL1nK2]

How about you vote Heartless and I will vote Otolia and we'll agree to disagree.

[ZeL1nK2]

Espy, dear, if you're still reading this game, thoughts on #2235/#2236 in neighborhood would be coolios.

[ZeL1nK2]

Does he just say "no, bl!" or do you steal their vote but not gain an extra vote?

Without breaking any rules, how is the ability worded?

[ZeL1nK2]

How much of the game have you read and/or what reads do you currently have?

Also, #9000

[ZeL1nK2]

Also,

Spoiler:

[ZeL1nK2]

mnemonic is farside

Ollie is FourTrouble

[ZeL1nK2]

I agree, let's lynch Otolia and end this godsforsaken day.

[ZeL1nK2]

I think Heartless is more likely town than not.

I would prefer an Otolia lynch.

[ZeL1nK2]

However, much like mastin, you really haven't pushed the Otolia lynch, and it seems largely PoE.

It's not. Well maybe partially because I do have stronger town reads elsewhere so he is part of a pool of players I think are most likely to be scum, but I also think there are somewhat good reasons to think Otolia is scum (or at least more likely scum than any of the other viable options).

Considering your push on Heartless is "they're confirmed scum because of the way they used their role!" I don't really think you can criticise anyone else's push without coming off as hypocritical, but I agree I haven't put that much effort into getting my preferred lynch to happen.

Whatever. It doesn't matter now, anyway.

[ZeL1nK2]

Mastin has made quite possibly the worst night choices in the history of mafia

[ZeL1nK2]

Whatever plan magua came up with that involved vezok targeting him also likely involved him targeting vezok

Just sayin' since, you know, that's the obvious conclusion for why vezok has bees

Also don't see how vezok having bees would implicate him given, you know, you've claimed bees are one-directional. How dpi know this but you and your neighborhood don't?

[ZeL1nK2]

How do I*

[ZeL1nK2]

By the way, in case you aren't 100 clear mastin, you're now blocked until tomorrow because of that so whatever information you're next going to have is going to come D7 at the earliest

[ZeL1nK2]

My understanding of 9111 is that's not actually the case

[ZeL1nK2]

Votes on TSO seem to be working today.

Yay

VOTE: TSO

[ZeL1nK2]

Skybird is probably town.

TSO is probably scum.

[ZeL1nK2]

I still think TSO was telling the truth, thus, is a bad lynch.

No.

So my lynch/vigpool is Skybird, Otolia/Ace, mnemonic/farside, and Espeonage

Otolia and

maaaaybe

Espeonage (but probably not) are the only ones I think have a chance of flipping scum in this group.

[ZeL1nK2]

Could you refresh me on who you think is scum.

Presumably still MS, TWIE and pikari?

[ZeL1nK2]

Shoot TSO

[ZeL1nK2]

Snowflake-senpai, please make the shooting of TSO.

He has openly admitted he gives not a single doo-doo about this game and he his signature is not in the least bit town.

Plus mastin thinks he's town. That's a pretty good indication he's scum, in my humble opinion.

[ZeL1nK2]

See, I have the opposite viewpoint of you. People who lurk / are inactive after scum take a bruising I feel are more likely to be scum, not less.

I agree.

See: TSO and Ace-slot.

[ZeL1nK2]

Sure.

Then who's scum?

TWIE and...?

[ZeL1nK2]

True.

And if TWIE is the scum-designated mislynch / misvig you're claiming Otolia is, then what?

[ZeL1nK2]

Maybe you could instead say who you think is scum instead of concentrating solely on defense. It didn't work too well for TSO, after all.

Well, you bought it. And so did mastin and ooba, apparently. But not when TWIE does it, because TSO is special.

[ZeL1nK2]

TSO lied about whether he would be vote-able today, and there's really no reason to have done that and nothing to be gained from it, but you do lose credibility for it and there's some people willing to vote just because of that (eg Drixx's "What happened to lynch all liars" post). Why would TSO-scum make lie like that?

Well, there are a few possibilities here.

- He might not have known the specifics of how his role worked (i.e. that no votes on him would count after the first "lynch"), which potentially affected how he approached his role. e.g. He could have assumed votes would still count afterwards but wouldn't do anything, which would mean requiring a majority of votes the following day to even test if he was lying about it and some might deem that a waste of time. Actually, regardless of the exact circumstances here, I believe he wasn't 100% clear on how his role worked.
- He might just not be the smartest grape on the grape tree. Maybe he assumed people would just not try to lynch him after his role was "proved". Maybe he assumed people would think like you do and assume he's essentially too scummy to be scum. Maybe there are other easons that I cannot think of because I don't think like him. Or maybe he just didn't think through the possibilities very well - he doesn't exactly scream 'player who thinks things through', for the record.

On the other hand, the town motivation was... lying to... get people to look elsewhere?

Eh.

Relatedly, I can only imagine that TSO-scum who knows he's potentially on the chopping block today would be trying to spread the mist, rather than just be all, "Hey, guys, I'm here."

Well, that's all he was really doing yesterday, too. Just in more posts (but that was mainly as a result of responding to people who were talking about him - when nobody's specifically talking about him, he doesn't have things to respond to and he can't actually write any content... because he's so obviously town that has opinions and stuff).

3. TSO-scum would know who vezok was protecting last Night (it was discussed in our PT) and I imagine the scumkill would've been on someone who already have some confirmation rather than Imperium.

I don't understand the logic here.

You weren't killed. There were a number of other people claiming either kill immunity or other shenanigans.

Not to mention, while Imperium wasn't exactly a consensus town read, there are definitely reasons TSO-scum might want Imperium dead.

If the answer to the above two questions was 'no', then how is your 9294 useful?

It's actually because I don't think you're scum that I'm trying to point out how inane your reasoning is.

[ZeL1nK2]

Scum are equally capable of doing "dumb things". Even players you would generally not consider dumb. Town can too. No one is disputing that. But I don't think "doing dumb things" is a good reason to town read someone, and if it is... then why is TWIE scum?

[ZeL1nK2]

I wasn't making a joke, though. I am always deadly serious.

[ZeL1nK2]

TSO-scum would be highly incentivized to kill Ollie before he got more vig shots from lynching TSO

Why does the rest of the player list not have the same motivation?

Why, for example, would TWIE-scum not want to kill FourTrouble (now Ollie) to prevent this?