SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[T S O]

But that's not what I asked - I asked why you didn't openly say you were doing this on a policy basis, like town would always do. You never did that.

[T S O]

That's fair - town don't always play good. This is true of your slot right now - its actions are fucking atrociously bad.

[T S O]

I am fully aware I am alienating you - I don't care, I have zero trust in your slot.

[T S O]

vezok says stuff for no reason

he's still town though

[T S O]

Jesus, why didn't

I

get a vig this game?

[T S O]

Who's even voting me?

Metal Sonic: He has literally no idea what he's doing ever.
Imperium: Their reason for voting me is awful and shitty and they're probably scum for it.
ZeL1nk: If I was mod-confirmed as an Innocent Child ZeL1nk wouldn't believe it; he's not in the tunnel, he's burrowed into the foundations.

You haven't really gone into addressing my reasons for voting you all that much, which would be help me determine if my reasons were actually bad or not.

I am fairly sure I have addressed them.

Imperium: You're scum for deflecting the lynch off Pere late d1.
TSO: Pere was a null read and so a shot in the dark, that's why I didn't support this.

And that's it.

[T S O]

I mean, maybe ZeL1nk has posted some tosh about interactions with Cephrir making me scum and you town? The thing about these interactions is that they haven't actually materialised yet. And I don't think they will, either.

[T S O]

Imperium, what do you think my scumbuddies said to me in the QT last night?

This is a genuine question, I'd like to know what stances you think it's likely my scumbuddies are taking on me.

[T S O]

Scumbuddy?

[T S O]

If my scumbuddies are bussing me, who are they? They'd need to be getting relevant towncred for doing so, and the only ones who might would be MS/ZeL1nk. Do you think I'm aligned with them?

[T S O]

If, on the other hand, they're ignoring me... I fail to understand why they'd throw a scumbuddy out the window and get absolutely nothing for doing it when 2 members are already down.

[T S O]

Scum don't play optimally.

Fucking really?

[T S O]

You have got to see why I'm scumreading you: your reasons to call me scum are just reaching across chasms.

[T S O]

townreading tso

too much groupthink
too little resistance to the wagon

the stuff imperium pointed out looks kind of bad but it's also kind of circumstantial

A more significant question I'd rather ask here is what stuff was circumstantiaI and why that makes it incorrect. I feel you're townreading TSO because he's active and aggressive instead of because of what he's done: I think he can fake active and aggressive easily as scum, but I don't think he is particularly likely to do a good majority of these things as town.

You don't think I'm active and aggressive as town?

[T S O]

I don't actually have the heart to kill that statement because, to an extent, it's true. Like this game. I'm town and for months I was neither active nor aggressive.

[T S O]

You have got to see why I'm scumreading you: your reasons to call me scum are just reaching across chasms.

How so?

Because I don't have an entire scumteam pegged and ready as soon as you ask for one? Because that is absolute bullshit.

No.
I laid out there how the current gamestate doesn't actually make sense for TSO-scum.
Your response was "oh well guess scum ain't playing optimally".

I am -trying- to take the initiative with this game. No-one has actually done so today because everyone seems to think a TSO lynch is happening. It's not on the cards today. It's even more difficult to take the initiative when you have to constantly field attacks from members of the Church of Holy Duality of Jesus and Confirmation Bias (ZeL1nk, MS). Yet I'm still doing it. And your response to it is "well he can do that as scum too."

[T S O]

Why did Peregrine lurk so much Day 1 if we were scumpartners? Why did I bus him day 1? Why is TWIE lurking if he's my scum partner and we are behind? Why, in your iteration of the scumteam, is everyone not posting shit but I'm hauling ass and have been hauling ass for the entire game?

Ask yourself these questions about me?

[T S O]

You're not hauling ass today. You're pushing scum-me. You haven't even considered, I don't know, letting mastin clear me tonight. You're randomly hellbent on getting me dead when you don't have any really good reasons for doing so.

[T S O]

It has never been particularly clear to me how in fact you knew PV was scum; it certainly didn't seem like it was from information solely in this thread. Whether that's from both being scum or having extensive meta, I do not know. Neither of those resources were at hand for me.

[T S O]

My push on vezok has multiple prongs. Here's one:

-I do not understand why vezok thought our hood was town. More specifically, me. No idea why. I do not think vezok wanted members of our hood flipping. I think that the reason everyone is so gung-ho on their neighbourhood being town is because town believe it and scum worry about their neighbourhood being culled and exposing them. I do not see any reason for vezok to believe it, ergo the scum-explanation for that action is a lot more likely to me.

[T S O]

Beast claimed town, yes. House, possibly. I can see reasons for and against. Me, no.

[T S O]

I posted stuff, but I disagree with it being townreadable.

[T S O]

Even if it was, how did vezok go on to declare his neighbourhood was town if he didn't have a

strong

read on me? Maybe it was a mild townread, somehow, but not a strong one.

[T S O]

Hey, ooba, how'd you go from MS-racist to MS-top townread? I get that was days ago, but the point stands.

[T S O]

Even if it was, how did vezok go on to declare his neighbourhood was town if he didn't have a

strong

read on me? Maybe it was a mild townread, somehow, but not a strong one.

Why did he need a strong read on you to declare the neighborhood all town?

What?

[T S O]

Like that post seems directly contradictory to me.

[T S O]

Because when people like mastin were vouching for their neighbourhoods, they were saying things like "ZZZX is 99% town, so is Xombie. No lynching them. Ever." It was made clear that if you were going to vouch for your neighbourhood you needed some pretty cast-iron reasons for doing so.

Vezok may or may not have had a mild townread on me somehow. If he did, I still don't see town-him just casually telling everyone it was an all-town neighbourhood like he did. With a minor townread on me? I just can't believe he'd do that. He's not wildly impulsive like that.

[T S O]

I wouldn't trust a cop result on TSO even if it was wasted on him; I think he's been specifically asking for it for a reason, and it's not because he's town.

If mastin is truly an unlimited cop, scum have at least one way of getting around this. It's probably TSO.

Investigate someone else. After TSO is lynched.

Look at this shit.

[T S O]

I have to admit, it's tempting to just tell you lot to fuck off and lynch me if you want. There's literally a mountain of shit I'm expected to respond to every fucking day and it never ends up changing anything.

[T S O]

I'll respond later tonight, yawn.

[T S O]

I am going to enjoy when something happens a lot.

[T S O]

So, tso, when you characterize my actual valid points against you based on your behavior day one, are you trying to say that it's not a way you would behave as scum?

Because in open 580:tit for tat while both of your partners were being run up day one, you couldn't understand the cases on them and instead started tunneling and attacking town who were pushing to lynch them. Then after one of your partners was lynched day one and the other vigged night one, you started vehemently attacking and tunneling very obvious town who had pegged you as scum, in a similar manner as you have towards us. Their very valid arguments against you were bad, and they were bad, and you looked to someone who was townreading you and somewhat buddied them to get them to save you.

So, color me unimpressed when I see you behaving in an extremely similar fashion as another game in which you were scum. I've seen you as town before, this doesn't feel like it. Quite frankly I couldn't give two fucks how much trust you have in my slot. Were town, how you feel about us doesn't matter to me. How we feel about you does matter to me, and you've not done one tiny little itty bitty thing to make me think you're town. If you want us to back off, stop with the pointless distractions and weak questions you know don't go anywhere and aren't helpful and actually act town.

And in the mean time feel free to answer a question. Where do you think the missing scum kill went last night?

What do you want me to do here? You've taken one of like fifteen scum games I've played and given a synopsis of it.

[T S O]

Are you comparing it to this and saying the scenarios were/are the same? I'll happily play ball with that argument.

[T S O]

Because in open 580:tit for tat while both of your partners were being run up day one, you couldn't understand the cases on them and instead started tunneling and attacking town who were pushing to lynch them.

Firstly, it's worth saying that what I did there was extremely poor play as scum which I had to carry out due to that set-up becoming imbalanced if scum suffer early losses. Secondly, I don't understand what your actual point is - for this to be legitimate, I would have had to attack you d1, which I didn't. If your response is that that's not what you're getting at, then this is a poor half-comparison.

Then after one of your partners was lynched day one and the other vigged night one, you started vehemently attacking and tunneling very obvious town who had pegged you as scum, in a similar manner as you have towards us.

Which I did in d2 of that game. Did I do it in d2 here? No.

Their very valid arguments against you were bad, and they were bad, and you looked to someone who was townreading you and somewhat buddied them to get them to save you.

Can you point to my buddying of Heartless?

And in the mean time feel free to answer a question. Where do you think the missing scum kill went last night?

Probably some town PR?

[T S O]

Or continuing the vezok case you sort of half started (explain, for example, why vezok thought calling you town would mean the neighborhood wouldn't get any scrutiny or why he tried to turn on you now or other unacceptable things past "he town read me early", which is sort of lame).

Is it really that lame? It proves he was falsifying reads.

[T S O]

explain, for example, why vezok thought calling you town would mean the neighborhood wouldn't get any scrutiny

The neighbourhood would get scrutiny. But it wouldn't get

added

scrutiny. That is the last thing you want as scum.

[T S O]

And I know that - a large part of Masquerade was spent trying to deflect pressure from our 'hood.

[T S O]

Picture the scenario.

vezok strolls into the game. He knows he's in a Neighbourhood. It's not really worrying him much right now.
Pretty soon, he figures out everyone else is in a Neighbourhood too. Again, there's still no particular issue.
Then he starts to notice people are getting partisan about the Neighbourhoods. People like mastin begin to refer to their own Neighbourhood as a Masonry. Others vouch for them.
vezok sees none of the same coming from his Neighbourhood. House is speaking in the PT about how he'd love to chain lynch its members. Me and Beast are just vouching for each other.
So, he's got a choice to make. Because pretty soon, scrutiny

is

going to fall onto his Neighbourhood; it can't be any other way, with such vehement defences from other players.
vezok's not actually townreading all the members of his Neighbourhood. He doesn't really believe in it being town. But, funnily enough, he calls it town. He produces the same clarion call as other players. And, the potential crisis is averted because of a lie.

The problem is the decision. vezok, as town, at the moment of decision, balances his want to look town with his innate paranoia - he's not sure this TSO guy is actually town. It's pretty dangerous to unequivocally call him town if he's not really sure about it. So, he thinks about it, and he makes the rational decision. He

doesn't

call his Neighbourhood town. Or, maybe he does. But he qualifies it somehow, just in case. He says he's still thinking on TSO, or something that makes it clear he's not certain. He doesn't have to be loud. But his conscience

will

make him do that.

vezok as scum, on the other hand, has none of these qualms. He doesn't need to worry about TSO's alignment. He doesn't have to be paranoid of him. His conscience won't weigh on him. vezok really doesn't want scrutiny to fall on the Neighbourhood, because when the spotlight falls, some of it falls on him. So what does he do? He vouches for the Neighbourhood. He doesn't do it doubtfully; he doesn't half-ass it; he proclaims his confidence in it because he knows he needs to do that to make his vouching look equal to that of the other people vouching for their Neighbourhood.

[T S O]

Because me and Beast have history for years and years - that's not a relevant thing to point out. It's just a unique dynamic.

[T S O]

That didn't influence vezok and I'll be disgusted if you attempt to say it did.

[T S O]

Oh fuck off Tammy, stop flinging your shit at me. "What PR stopped the kill, YOU WERE BLOCKED BY THE WAY"

[T S O]

Yeah, I'm not going to read 20 odd pages of this Bullshit, I roleblocked mastin and there was no nightkill. VOTE: mastin

So it was known Tiphaine's slot was a Roleblocker, yes?

And it was also known ZeL1nk highly suspected me after he made a gigantic wall, yes?

[T S O]

So what the actual fuck would the scumteam need to be smoking to send ME to do the kill?

[T S O]

House and TSO are town also.

Beast is town for reasons.

You need to search harder, Tammy.

[T S O]

So, yeah, your entire response to me calling vezok scum falls to pieces with that.

Isn't that cute?

[T S O]

I also find it hilarious that people like you keep saying "go look town go be town" so I go and explain my scumread and your response is "stop doing this." I'm not going to fucking stop doing this and go back to defending myself against your shitty little snipes.

[T S O]

I'm saying it would have been fucking lunacy to send me to do the kill, full stop.

[T S O]

I'm not saying scum No Killed. I'm saying I don't know what happened. What I do know is that the Roleblock on me was irrelevant.

[T S O]

But, yes, I understand: vezok

flat-out lying

for no reason is acceptable, right? Because that is what you're saying right now.

Don't insult my play in your response, just confirm: yes or no.

[T S O]

Go read the game.

[T S O]

Did anyone forget that I scumread TSO earlier than beast townread TSO

I think they did

Let me just interject that I too have the same years with them

No, this is wrong. It's a Beast-TSO thing - you really don't enter into it at all, MS.

[T S O]

I don't think Imperium fully gets the dynamic - we kinda townread each other 95% of the time in games and try to have each other's backs, and so forth. It's not really based on content. If Beast thought I was scum, he'd vote for me 100%, but we tend not to think that since we're kinda transparent to each other.

[T S O]

Subject: Street Racers: London (Game over!)

Yeah amateur and triforce are scum.

Let's go with triforce

vote: TriforceP

Triforce and amateur were utter scumfucks and they

had shown this clearly early in SR.

. I was able to produce a full Triforce wagon in less than a day or so - that is how scummy this was.

Read the fucking games you're linking.

[T S O]

This lynch is going through because of town apathy - there are two sides on this. There's me, TSO, with no-one on my side but me. Then there's Imperium/ZeL1nk/MS/basically anyone else on the other side.

I asked Imperium what my scumpartners were doing because it seemed unusual they were just throwing me to the wolves. He gave something along the lines of "oh well they're not playing good". That's fucking nonsense. I get you think I'm scum and you're trying to bat away my counter-arguments, but that's the most convenient explanation ever.

[T S O]

Yeah, I'm not going to waste my time here further.

[T S O]

Insert giant middle finger image here.

Hope my green flip blows your mind.

[T S O]

ZeL1nk will probably try to push your lynch today, TWIE.

[T S O]

Hey, if you lurk you must be scum.

[T S O]

(Ignoring a large part of your push on me is for lurking.)

[T S O]

What is your read on TWIE?

[T S O]

Why?

[T S O]

Please be aware I don't want nonsensical bullshit as an answer; revise what you were about to post accordingly.

[T S O]

That's a good girl.

[T S O]

i think the most damning evidence against twie is the meh read on ceph when confronted on it and the subsequent dicking around and eventual dropping it altogether

I don't think there's really anything good about TWIE's play but I'm still having trouble letting go of the Blonde "I can make myself confirmed town" thing, which would be a pretty impressive play from newscum, who, in his last game as scum, just sort of sat around and let himself get lynched.

Nearly every role in this game has the potential to confirm itself as town. Mine does, for example. It's no great stretch of the imagination for Blonde to think the same and say it, regardless of alignment. This also raises the nasty little problem of TWIE not actually confirming himself and coasting like fuck. You would think he'd at least confirm himself and then coast, if that was his plan.

This alleviates none of my concerns.

i think the most damning evidence against twie is the meh read on ceph when confronted on it and the subsequent dicking around and eventual dropping it altogether

I don't think there's really anything good about TWIE's play but I'm still having trouble letting go of the Blonde "I can make myself confirmed town" thing, which would be a pretty impressive play from newscum, who, in his last game as scum, just sort of sat around and let himself get lynched.

yeah there's also the TWIE softclaiming on skybird behalf

I haven't seen this, I'd like to. I'd also like to understand why doing this makes TWIE town. I'm withholding judgment on this and hoping I'm missing something here which will become apparent once you go into further detail.

Page 11-13

* The one thing that does bother me about xombie is the "Are you overcompensating" post, the more I look at it. That shit's not good.

*Imperium won't explain 73. I also didn't quite get that post tbh.

* 306 is probably the laziest Vote Count I've ever seen.

* in 310, Bitmap sees what I saw, and apparently nobody else cared about. I like Bitmap

* The more I see Imperium and Solar Wind react, the more that fight at the beginning seems like a fabrication.

* Imperium passes off a serious post about him as a joke.

* I guess Metal Sonic is a daycop---

WAIT A SECOND HOLD THE PHONE

He claimed something completely different in our hood.

There's also this + the next two posts from aeronaut which adds to the slot's towniness by a considerable degree.

Aeronaut-scum sees Metal Sonic lying, points it out, gets towncred. There's your scenario right there.

Unless you believe Aeronaut-scum would see Metal Sonic lying to the town in general and not point it out, this is completely useless as a point.

[T S O]

2 of your points are completely useless, one may or may not be completely useless.

[T S O]

So, the arguments for TWIE being town have been removed bar one which is awaiting trial. On the other hand, the arguments for TWIE being scum, such as Heartless's #7398, is alive and kicking.

[T S O]

I'll do it as soon as we hammer out our issues on TWIE.

[T S O]

You can try to reply to the points I dismissed - I don't really care, neither does anyone else, so you're essentially talking to yourself. The one about Skybird is the only interesting one left.

[T S O]

It would indeed be a ballsy move by a scum player, especially a newb, to claim a power they don't have. That's why Blonde didn't do that. He believed the role he got, and its powers, could confirm him. This is role madness; as scum or town, this is entirely possible in the mind of a newbie player. Blonde-scum is just as likely to think his role can confirm him as town as Blonde-town is - Blonde-town is not more informed in any way than Blonde-scum. Him doing this is completely null.

Onto Skybird, thanks.

[T S O]

How is that the case?

[T S O]

We know that Blonde, or TWIE now, cannot actually confirm themselves. So, we know Blonde misinterpreted their role. The only question left is if Blonde-town is more likely to misinterpret their role than Blonde-scum.

I propose, this game being role madness, there is no reason to think that.

[T S O]

I'll translate for Imperium: "A newb scum would not believe their role could confirm them as town because they are not town."

Carry on.

So what's your read on TWIE?

[T S O]

The reason that Blonde said that, is because at some point in this game I will be confirmed town. I just dont really have that much control over when that happens.

That's a pretty good evasion method; the indefiniteness of it will probably carry you to LyLo regions.

I'd give you 8/10 for it.

[T S O]

I feel like I crumbed the reason why enough already tbh.

Then presumably anyone who cares enough to look (hint: scum at night, hint #2: not me) will find out, meaning the only thing your crumbing is doing now is depriving town of information for a period of time.

Just say what you mean, TWIE.

[T S O]

I'll translate for Imperium: "A newb scum would not believe their role could confirm them as town because they are not town."

Carry on.

So what's your read on TWIE?

You didn't respond, buddy.

I was waiting for you to bring up your "softclaimed for Skybird" point - is this you ceding it's utterly irrelevant?

[T S O]

I wanted to discuss one thing at a time since you're bad at responding to things I bring up.

I have responded to everything I really care about - everything you've posted about TWIE-town, for example.

Is there a reason we can't talk about this point, or...?

*laughs*

I have asked you to talk about at least Skybird at least three times - it is the only place I feel your imput on TWIE could have further relevance, given that you townread him wrongly for inconsequential reasons twice. If you want to talk about what I've asked you to, I am all ears. If you want to rehash your viewpoint and add nothing new to the table... not so much.

[T S O]

The reason that Blonde said that, is because at some point in this game I will be confirmed town. I just dont really have that much control over when that happens.

That's a pretty good evasion method; the indefiniteness of it will probably carry you to LyLo regions.

I'd give you 8/10 for it.

This is amusing to me, as it is

almost

the exact same thing you were trying to do earlier.

Oh well, hypocrisy is not a scumtell.

I also will be vindicated for my decision, so I have no qualms with doing what I did.

[T S O]

It's late and I'm going to bed.

Final thought of the day: I do not understand how mastin has not received a result in days from a basic y/n question.

[T S O]

I'll translate for Imperium: "A newb scum would not believe their role could confirm them as town because they are not town."

Carry on.

Could you please explain why you disagree with this, TSO?

Because it's fundamentally wrong?

[T S O]

I do not understand how you could possibly believe it's true.

[T S O]

I'm happy with my TSO vote.

I am town-reading TWIE. TSO's push on him and then later trying to push me feels like someone who is trying to find someone (anyone!) to be the lynch besides himself.

I didn't try to fucking push you once, Skybird, you just saw your name, assumed I was calling you scum and decided to vote me. Nice fucking play.

[T S O]

I'll translate for Imperium: "A newb scum would not believe their role could confirm them as town because they are not town."

Carry on.

Could you please explain why you disagree with this, TSO?

Because it's fundamentally wrong?

This is a non-answer. Could you please respond to my post with a post that refutes its reasoning??

Because you are assuming that newb-scum have this gigantic block in their head that prevents them from thinking this, and I don't.

[T S O]

We know that Blonde, or TWIE now, cannot actually confirm themselves. So, we know Blonde misinterpreted their role. The only question left is if Blonde-town is more likely to misinterpret their role than Blonde-scum.

I propose, this game being role madness, there is no reason to think that.

This still stands.

[T S O]

Don't waste your fucking vig shot on me, it doesn't work. Lynch me and shoot TWIE.

[T S O]

Or Imperium, that works either.

[T S O]

It kinda disappoints me that Heartless gave up on me - I understand they had no real reason to back me up, and it's hard to back an unknown when you start taking flak for daring to suggest they're town, but still. Just a little disappointing.

[T S O]

You're right for once, that's true, her justification annoyed me so much I presumed it was a vote.

[T S O]

yawn

I'm going to have to heavily,

heavily

suggest your Vig shot is not influenced by Imperium, FourTrouble.

[T S O]

Go for it.

[T S O]

Oh, stubborn, but I have my very specific reasons for doing so.

[T S O]

All will be revealed before I depart, dear ZeL1nk.

[T S O]

What's your read on TWIE, anyway? I'd love to discuss it with you, since you are an expert scumhunter.

[T S O]

Note to self: do not let ZZZX into LyLo ever.

[T S O]

Let me lay this out so you can follow it easily:

It may be impossible for scum to confirm themselves as town.
It is not impossible, for newbscum in role madness, to

think

they can confirm themselves as town.

[T S O]

That's not my job - speculating on that leads nowhere, as we don't know. There are plenty of roles in this game that, to the inexperienced eye, could confirm them as town. Mine. F-16's. Others.

Remember, this point is about TWIE-town. I'm proving that that action has a scum scenario as well as a town one. That means you're going to have to re-analyse your TWIE read (or not - I'm sure people will notice that though!)

Now, you're right, we do need to move on to the rest of the case - can you get to that instead of arguing rubbish? That'd be great.

It's so awkward when your mislynch target starts pointing out your read flaws, isn't it?

[T S O]

That's not my job - speculating on that leads nowhere, as we don't know. There are plenty of roles in this game that, to the inexperienced eye, could confirm them as town. Mine. F-16's. Others.

Remember, this point is about TWIE-town. I'm proving that that action has a scum scenario as well as a town one. That means you're going to have to re-analyse your TWIE read (or not - I'm sure people will notice that though!)

Now, you're right, we do need to move on to the rest of the case - can you get to that instead of arguing rubbish? That'd be great.

It's so awkward when your mislynch target starts pointing out your read flaws, isn't it?

[T S O]

"TSO is scumreading me" ---> Lynch him!
"Heartless is scumreading me" ---> Vig him!

[T S O]

You did neither, but I really have no interest in discussing this with you further.

[T S O]

Nothing I say is getting through, whatsoever, and this is not down to me simply selling it badly - you're just arguing for the sake of it.

[T S O]

FourTrouble, I'm immune to vigs - TWIE is the best vig. vezok/Imperium either, but I can't see you going there.

[T S O]

How is F-16's role something that newbscum would think confirms themselves? Remember, things like "vig kill --> confirmed town" are very specific mafiascum meta assumptions and a newbie wouldn't hold the same belief.

It's precisely because Blonde is a newbie and unused to MafiaScum meta assumptions that this entire scenario becomes possible. Blonde doesn't have to actually be able to confirm himself as scum. He just needs to think he can. If he was experienced, this wouldn't have happened.

You pointed out a scum scenario. I pointed out a town one. This is true. I pointed out why your scum scenario is unlikely (scum wouldn't believe they could confirm themselves as town because that scenario is impossible and there's no reason for anyone to believe that unless some ambiguous weird role interaction exists and would be talked about in a role PM that I just don't know about).

This is where you start to fall off the rails and sound illogical. You keep tossing in words like "impossible" when not only is what I'm proposing not impossible, it's barely even implausible. When you start saying things like this, I begin to feel I'd be best peddling my wares elsewhere because you're either scum or town with a completely closed mind, which is probably more dangerous than the former.

I made a claim, I provided evidence. Now I'm hoping you will provide a claim AND evidence (shown me what role I'm thinking incorrectly about, explain why it makes sense to believe a completely impossible thing and then claim that completely impossible thing without clearing it through scumbuddies first), so we can move on.

We haven't got to this stage yet - but I would love to see the claim you made and the evidence you provided. I will be deeply surprised if it's not flimsy and weak.

[T S O]

I am not "running away when hard questions are asked". I'm questioning whether my free time is worth spending on this game where I am the de facto lynch today for reasons which are not particularly compelling.

[T S O]

You're so busy pushing my lynch through and attempting to gather momentum I'm working on derailing that you can't actually take on board what I am saying about TWIE/vezok to be true or acknowledge it as being true, because to do so would derail my wagon even further. You can deny that, but it is 100% true.

[T S O]

That's another example of vezok's reads being completely fucking false, but I'm sure Imperium can justify it.

[T S O]

(TWIE-scum, vezok-scum, ace-town, Magua-town, TSO-town, MS-3P, Imperium-scum, Heartless-town, Drixx-town, ZeL1nk-town, ZZZX-town, mastin-town)

Can't think of the rest.

[T S O]

Our definitions of conftown are different, sadly.

[T S O]

You're so busy pushing my lynch through and attempting to gather momentum I'm working on derailing that you can't actually take on board what I am saying about TWIE/vezok to be true or acknowledge it as being true, because to do so would derail my wagon even further. You can deny that, but it is 100% true.

You haven't said anything about vezok except what I've proven (yes, proven) to be stupid. We are talking about TWIE now, but you also haven't really said anything about him except for the hypocritical lylo thing and that reason didn't exactly excite me.

The point ended up coming to a standstill, but the fact is vezok did protect Cephrir n1.

I've seen it said somewhere this was a Rolestopper - if anything, this implicates vezok more heavily, given that Cephrir alone of the flipped scum could really really not afford to be tracked etc.

Why is vezok town again? Indulge me.

[T S O]

mastin, who do you want FT shooting?

[T S O]

When I called vezok out on it, in #7693, he said he was not expecting me to flip scum.

If his view has changed, it hasn't been particularly well documented in his ISO, given #7693 was his sixth-last post or so.

[T S O]

There was a specific reason I asked Drixx that question. I would still like Drixx to answer that question.

I have a feeling I'm going to be underwhelmed at a rehash of a reason you're scumreading me, but go for it.

So why have you ignored the arguments you have? Is your free time only worth responding to bad points and not good ones?

I cannot respond to all the arguments calling me scum. I see no reason to think addressing these arguments, convincingly or not, will have any effect on the vast majority of the playerbase. So I choose to allot my time to scumhunting rather than defending myself.

Defending myself in this game is the nature equivalent of retreating to my tortoise shell, inviting in the predators, while birds of prey like you and ZeL1nk soar around in the air. I'm putting up significant resistance, it's taking a damn long time, but in the bitter end, due to circumstances the final result remains the same.

Scumhunting, however, is like the tortoise coming back out of its shell gripping a Magnum revolver - it might not be able to down the birds but it'll do its best to tear some fucking holes in their wings before it goes down, fighting like all good tortoises should.

[T S O]

At the rate of posting we're going at we'll surpass InuYasha. And they got theirs in part by postspamming.

[T S O]

This is a good thing, but I feel sorry for people trying to keep up with the game.

[T S O]

I don't see how "I neither support nor oppose TSO's lynch" is mastin's ...approval, Tammy, but whatever floats your boat.

[T S O]

That's true, but all that does is indicate a lack of willingness on my part to defend myself, which is directly against my scum play. So...

[T S O]

I didn't make a conscious decision to choose the easiest arguments to crush and run with that, but it is possible that I subconsciously chose the easier arguments. It's possibly even probable.

[T S O]

Unlucky, TTH. It was going to happen.

[T S O]

Your gigantic misreps are cute, ZeL1nk.

[T S O]

- Changing his mind about mastin based on a claim that, if he was hard scum-reading mastin, makes very little sense.
- Suggesting I'm town for "derp" despite a previous hard scum read on my slot.
- Making a pikari case that has been completely and utterly shut down and shown to be unreasonable.
- Suggesting that TWIE could possibly be scum and therefore nobody should town read him. Despite never explaining why he thinks TWIE is more likely scum.

1. I have, again, no idea how it doesn't make sense to townread a townish claim.
2. This is just a lie, plain and simple.
3. It has? As far as I'm concerned I've argued townreads on him to a standstill while pointing there's likely scum in my 'hood, pointing out he's repeatedly lied about reads, pointing out he Rolestopped Cephrir n1, pointing out Cephrir above all needed Rolestop protection because of his multiple night actions...
4. I have no idea why the first sentence is an issue - pointing out legitimate reasons that TWIE could be scum is called *gasp* scumhunting! That thing you should try doing instead of deathtunnelling me. As for the second - arguing there's scum motivation as well as town motivation for TWIE's slot's actions is, by extension, giving reasons why he could be scum. You know that post you made up there? Where you talked about which motivation is more likely? No-one has been able to do that for TWIE-town yet.

[T S O]

That's one of your posts responded to - I doubt I'll respond to the rest because, like I said, I'm not in the business of defending myself this game.

[T S O]

Every action in a mafia game that comes from an unconfirmed player could theoretically come from town or scum. The fact that you can think of ways to poke holes in a town case does not mean you're scum hunting.

Says the person who also seems to find it incomprehensible that I could be town ...?

This is a moronic post - your attempt at posting theory is idiotic at best. You should stop.

[T S O]

(1) The claim itself wasn't "townish" unless you were already reading mastin as town. Other people who read the claim were either questioning it or saying it looked suspicious, and they weren't even hard scum-reading mastin. It makes me wonder why you were pushing so hard for mastin's lynch/claim if all it took was a relatively weak claim that is probably mostly true regardless of mastin's alignment.

So you think that scum got a Bee Tracker.

Right.

This was the point where I realised, once again, you have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever.

(2) It's not, though. You'd been scum reading my slot since D1. Only today do you turn around and call it town. Why? #7566 and #7572 indicate I'm apparently too dumb to be scum. I mean if my case on you is so bad and I'm misrepresenting what you're saying, why is it town? Why couldn't I theoretically do this as scum? Do scum just never make cases?

I love how you start running away from your own lies - in your last post this was "hard scumreading", now it's just gone back to "scumreading". There's a big difference, but lying or exaggerating to make your points seem better is a trademark of your play, after all.

But, yeah, it's possible for my reads to change, especially in the face of certain types of play, and your derpy little tunnel is all that. My scumread on TiphaineDeath was never particularly strong - other than push for him as a deadline lynch one time, I don't remember saying much.

(3) As I pointed out in #8111, the case you wrote on pikari got absolutely demolished. Like, to the point where the exact scenario you wrote would happen if pikari was town (in #7836) actually

DID

happen in this game. Exactly what you said would happen if he was town. You'd know this if your case wasn't baloney. But you didn't even fact-check. All of your other points aren't even valid points. The only one that would actually have any merit in a case is if it's true that pikari lied about reads. What reads did he lie about? You still haven't answered this.

I'm going back to my comfortable refrain: if you were actually reading the game, rather than skimming it, you'd see that I have said many, many, many times that he's lied, multiple times, about his read on me. You'd know this if you were reading the game. Which you're not.

(4) No, it's not. It's called providing no content and pretending you are providing content. You haven't stated a reason for thinking TWIE is scum. All you've done is suggest that people town-reading him don't have rock-solid reasons for doing this. That's not scum hunting. That's poking holes in town cases while providing no scum case. You don't have a scum case on TWIE. You haven't given any reasons to believe TWIE is scum. All you've done for pages and pages is say people shouldn't be town-reading him.

Yes, yes, throw the "you're producing no content" at me some more, ZeL1nk. No-one here is inexperienced enough to fall for it.

It's pretty hilarious, really, that the sum of your recent content has been tunnelling me and literally doing nothing else bar some attempts at theory, while I've been busy debunking ill-founded townreads, and apparently

I'm

the one who's not producing content - but continue with that line, I'm sure MS will comfort you into thinking you're right at some stage.

If you legitimately don't understand the difference between giving reasons for someone being scum and poking holes in a town case, then might I suggest you visit this thread, to brush up on your mafia knowledge.

That's not a bad idea - it's been a while since I had some fun IC'ing.

[T S O]

Says the person who also seems to find it incomprehensible that I could be town ...?

Yes, I think you're scum. I've analysed your actions, talked about your motivations, and described why I think your behaviour is more likely to come from scum than town.

You've done so with a heavily biased interpretation of my play, starting off with the goal in mind that I'm scum and manipulating your case to follow. Which is okay - it's just a problem with your play, and maybe one day you'll iron it out. You'll find, though, it's really not conducive to making scum flip.

[T S O]

At this point we're just waiting for FourTrouble to show up so you can actually be lynched.

Yes, because you need the vig to lynch someone.

Ah, ZeL1nk, it's been so very fun.

[T S O]

I actually wrote out a response to that wall, but I'm not going to post it here.

Were you disappointed at your own mediocrity?

Write a paragraph or two explaining why you think each of your current scum reads is scum.

Sure, I'll do it whenever I feel like it.

Every action in a mafia game that comes from an unconfirmed player could theoretically come from town or scum. The fact that you can think of ways to poke holes in a town case does not mean you're scum hunting.

Your phraseology is lacking, I'm afraid. You keep using the phrase "poke holes", but that's not what's really going on; they say "A is town because they did B", and I reply "B has just as much scum motivation as town." Therefore, they should then revise their townread on A, because it's ill-founded. In TWIE's case, when I do this, my final response ends up being something like "He's done nothing town, he may not be particularly scummy, but there's no reason to think he's town. Lurking, no content, isn't going to remedy either. FOURTROUBLE!" And I'm completely okay with doing that; I feel in a game with the town PR's have, it's a completely legitimate form of scumhunting. It's not "poking holes". That implies something completely different to what I'm doing.

I understand you're going to feel the need to use that phrase, maybe out of a misguided idea that that's actually what's going on, maybe to annoy me, maybe because you feel if I disagree with it then it must be correct. It doesn't really matter. I just felt the need to explain to you why it's wrong so when you look back on this game you can take this opportunity to improve your play.

[T S O]

Fine.

vote tso

@zelnik: If he flips town you are going to sheep my votes until the end.

I just don't understand where heartless is coming from unless he's scum with TSO.

Antihero played with me a bunch of times. Even modded a game I played in. He knows how to read me. That slot needs to be vigged.

I want tso dead just so he'll stop posting shit and arguing with zelnik

Ladies and gentlemen, vezokpiraka.

[T S O]

There's your falsifying reads right there, ZeL1nk.

[T S O]

vezok has called me town, scum and annoying town in that order. Either you think vezok is completely unable to remember his own thought processes, or vezok is lying.

[T S O]

If these were my reads on vezok you'd be crawling over them like a beetle, but I'm looking forward to seeing how you can justify vezok doing it.

[T S O]

vezok is defending me for no good reason.
The pressure is piling up.
He knows he's going to have to back up his read at some stage and he can't do that because the read is an outright lie.
So what does he do?
He folds to ZeL1nk's big wallcase, the first real reason he could find to "believe" TSO-scum, on me and votes me to get out of the corner he put himself in by white knighting me.

[T S O]

Because there's a difference?

[T S O]

It's you taking the inflection wrong, sweetheart.

[T S O]

Whatever you think.

[T S O]

Why the fuck are you planning to flip me without a Vig kill?

[T S O]

Can we replace FourTrouble if he doesn't post soon? Or at least give me his dayvig?

[T S O]

replace FT to fuck

[T S O]

Going into a townbloc with Imperium is the direct equivalent of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact; for a while, it'll all be peaceful and dandy, before you get stabbed in the back by Germany.

[T S O]

I also feel like Poland.

[T S O]

I don't know how you possibly picked that interpretation up, dear Japan.

[T S O]

Well, in the vast majority of history books, Poland is not an evil empire.

[T S O]

All I'm saying is, it'll be fun.

[T S O]

It!

[T S O]

I'm not townreading him, at all - he'd be a great utility vig.

[T S O]

Nacho, how confident are you that I'm flipping scum?

[T S O]

Shush, you.

[T S O]

Perhaps we should perform a hypothetical signature bet. They're so in for 2015.

If I'm right, I get to suggest a new signature for your hydra. You, of course, don't change it to it or anything. That would be illegal.

Then, about a month after, some nefarious hacker manages to access your account, and change your signature directly to the hypothetical suggestion! And you can't simply change it back or anything, because it's too much work.

[T S O]

MS.

[T S O]

Just kill him.

[T S O]

Or, as I've said, one of {TWIE, vezok, you} should have scum in it.

[T S O]

I don't really feel like talking about my reads anymore? I kinda already did that. It's already there.

I didn't play this game for approximately 2 months, I'm not very disappointed at how my reads ended up.

[T S O]

Yeah, but I'm unfortunately immune to vig. That was the entire point of saying I should be lynched.

[T S O]

FourTrouble, just vig TWIE.

[T S O]

But the vig is going to come before the lynch.

Sigh.

[T S O]

Don't choose me.

[T S O]

I am warning you, my lynch isn't going to work. Do not target me with that ability.

This is not bravado.

[T S O]

Hey.

TSO.

Hey.

Two questions.

Question one. Assume vezokpiraka is town. Who would you prefer to lynch?

Question two. You did absolutely fuck all nothing until you came under pressure, at which point you explode with defense. Why should I think you're town at all? Smarmy answers like "I'm town" or "because I'm awesome" can be discarded immedaitely.

1. MS, TWIE

2. You don't have a reason, really. I know I'm town. Doesn't mean I have the tools to definitely prove it.

[T S O]

Yes.

[T S O]

I would think, as you, that I've made some valid arguments - but there are still many convincing reasons that I can't really respond to, so a pretty definitive yes.

[T S O]

I'll say it again - I am warning FT not to target me.

[T S O]

It doesn't automatically win at LyLo. My plan was to create a scenario where I was online along with someone I felt strongly was scum, somehow derp into self-voting, get them to hammer, ask them 2 or 3 of their scum members, which would create multiple consecutive scum lynches.

[T S O]

It gives me immunity for 3 phases, including the one I was "killed" in. So if I'm lynched today, I'm immune to death for today/tonight/tomorrow.

I also extend the deadline by a week, and refund daykillers their daykill.

[T S O]

I don't know if I refund nightvigs, it seems unlikely.

[T S O]

I really wanted to see the reactions when I revealed I'm still hanging around for another phase, but game is dragging like fuck and I kinda owe it to my win condition to push it forward if I can.

VOTE: TSO

[T S O]

Speed it up so I can prove it.

[T S O]

Then we can go lynch TWIE or MS.

[T S O]

Do you die at the end of 3 phases?

Let's not talk about that.

[T S O]

But, hey, here's the good news - after we test my claim we can test yours!!!!

[T S O]

By running the game, do you mean being townread based on a consensus vig and coasting for the remainder of the game?

[T S O]

Don't worry, baby, you're safe from the dark side.

[T S O]

It gives me immunity for 3 phases, including the one I was "killed" in. So if I'm lynched today, I'm immune to death for today/tonight/tomorrow.

I also extend the deadline by a week, and refund daykillers their daykill.

If you want to join a game I IC in the Newbie Queue, I can give you some tips on reading the game.

[T S O]

Let's put it to the test, then.

[T S O]

You seemed so keen to hammer me before my claim earlier. Where'd that go?

[T S O]

Well, hopefully no-one has shot me n1 or something.

[T S O]

yawn

[T S O]

ZeL1nk, why the fuck would scum nk me n1 if I did nothing?

Like, I understand your preferred method of scum hunting is "lets try to make it look like NOTHING he said is EVER right!!!" which is, funny, I guess? But at the same time, makes you look like a tryhard imbecile.

[T S O]

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE SLEEPYKREW

[T S O]

But why would dramonic inform me randomly?

[T S O]

I love you too, baby. I'm just trying to get my opinion across.

[T S O]

id die

[T S O]

Er... It's not about whether or not he

would

do it, but for your plan to work, it kind of requires that he does do it.

I mean, to put it more conscisely, your plan relied on you still having the ability at LyLo and you don't even know if you still have it, apparently. At least that is the inference I'm making from #8345. I mean you're assuming you have it, but by the time LyLo comes around, if you were still alive, there's no guarantee you'd still have the ability.

So you could have automatically lost the game for town at LyLo if you're town.

I think you would have realised this if you were town. But no.

No response to a valid point like this?

I think you're confusing "not responding" with "not giving enough of a shit".

[T S O]

It doesn't automatically win at LyLo. My plan was to create a scenario where I was online along with someone I felt strongly was scum, somehow derp into self-voting, get them to hammer, ask them 2 or 3 of their scum members, which would create multiple consecutive scum lynches.

This seems like the least thought-out plan I've ever seen.

Actually, while TSO might find the comparison a bit offensive, I actually find his stated plan to not only be plausible, but also highly mastinesque.

Imagine it was me with his claimed role.
Imagine me making the same type of post.
Does it still fit?

...My point exactly.
Pretty sure right now that TSO's town.

Hey, I like you!

...it's just sometimes your arrogance/confidence/ego whatever does irritate me a bit.

[T S O]

What you're saying is that town-TSO is more calculated than scum-TSO, which is... pretty blatantly wrong, if you'd ever meta'd me or anything at all.

[T S O]

I support ooba's play here - I mean, clearly Heartless have saved me, so let's prove it!!!

[T S O]

Anyone who thinks that actually happened is a fucking idiot. Props to Imperium for my estimation of their intelligence dropping the most.

[T S O]

Are you intentionally playing dumb, TWIE, or ...?

[T S O]

banter

[T S O]

Imperium pushes mislynch #1, goes on to push mislynch #2.

[T S O]

MS

[T S O]

third
fucking
party

[T S O]

And the game goes from bad to farcical.

[T S O]

I don't know what to say, ooba, this is mindblowingly idiotic.

[T S O]

You make a fantastic point - your need to frame

every single action and post I make

as utterly scummy is also extremely idiotic, ZeL1nk.

[T S O]

vote: twie

[T S O]

let's test your deathproof

now

[T S O]

just fucking vote twie

[T S O]

Why are you telling us why TWIE is useless and proceeding to not vote TWIE?

[T S O]

Meanwhile, no-one busses TWIE.

[T S O]

I'll give you that one - that's one of your best in a while, ZeL1nk.

[T S O]

ms-scum walks in, posts fluff, leaves, doesn't get lynched somehow

[T S O]

the activity level here is a fucking joke

dramonic try doing your fucking job

[T S O]

how the fuck do you find it remotely acceptable as a mod to let someone go over three weeks without posting