SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)


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Post Post #6977 (isolation #200) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:29 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 6975, T S O wrote:Also, you still lack both the clout and a certain kind of charisma needed for brute strength strongmanning.

I have always been told I lack charisma and I have a hard time getting people to follow me.

Maybe if I used caps lock more frequently or something, more people would listen to me. Alas, my caps lock key is broken and holding down shift is uncomfortable when typing long sentences.
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Post Post #6979 (isolation #201) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:37 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

It's OK. I'm not offended. I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could strong-arm your lynch, but that seems inelegant. I would like for people just to examine the facts and see the (very) obvious conclusion.

But it is hard when a lot of the game is fixated on mastin and Anamikus, two rather large distractions at the moment.

It would be nice if people could just agree to give mastin one more day (again) and consider options outside of Anamikus (even if there is value in lynching him for utility reasons). It doesn't help that mastin seems to take pride in being a distraction, and Anamikus doesn't seem to care enough to try to stop his impending lynch.
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Post Post #6980 (isolation #202) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:40 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I mean, we are not lynching mastin today, so people should really stop focusing on that (unless they have new reasoning that hasn't already been covered a hundred times).

We're not in a position where, even if mastin is scum, it is an immediate threat that needs to be dealt with. And I don't think mastin is scum, so I'm willing to wait another day.

In the mean time, I would like to discuss other people.

If the game at large could agree to just shelve the mastin issue until tomorrow, I would greatly appreciate that.
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Post Post #6982 (isolation #203) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:48 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Maybe if I use big letters, more people will take notice of me.

Let's try this.

We are not lynching mastin today, so please stop focusing on that, everyone.


Yes, she said she would prove herself today. It didn't happen. There's an explanation for it. It's plausible. It could be a lie, but it could also be the truth. Either way, she's requested one more day and people are getting fed up with her to the point that she really only has one more day, so just leave her alone for now and come back to it tomorrow if it really concerns you.

It is a major distraction to the game at the moment and is hindering discussion that could best be had about the rest of the game.

Let's talk about Anamikus, TSO and TAOS. Or anyone else you would consider lynching today.

Does this sound like a good idea?

I would like to lynch TSO today. I think I've made it really clear why.

I can see value in lynching Anamikus, but seeing as I don't think TSO will die via vig kill, I would rather make him dead today. Also, I don't have any strong feelings about Anamikus being a bad guy.

Though I would like to hear whether FourTrouble agrees with farside's assessment that Anamikus doesn't make much sense as a partner for PV because of neighborhood interactions.
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Post Post #6983 (isolation #204) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:50 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 6981, T S O wrote:You seem to be doing your best to strongarm my lynch, with mediocre results.

I don't particularly understand why you think asking people to not look at Ankamius for (no reason) is going to do anything, but feel free to continue doing it.

I actually haven't been trying to strong-arm your lynch before now.

I've been rather lax about it, to be honest. Partially because it's hard to motivate yourself when the gamestate is such that most people don't care enough to provide content, and a lot of people are distracted by someone that isn't being lynched today.
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Post Post #6985 (isolation #205) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:05 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I think TSO is just bulletproof.

I think scum have a bulletproof member. I think it's TSO.

But even if that weren't the case, I'm aware there are ways for a blocked kill to
potentially
still be useful to town. I'm also aware that they would both need to exist in the game and use their roles in a particular way for this to actually be a feasible scenario. Whether or not that's optimal or suboptimal play, I'm not so sure.

I don't have strong reasons for thinking Anamikus is town, except that I am somewhat trusting of farside's analysis about PV-Anamikus in the neighborhood and there are very small things about his play that I find town-looking. I also think the interactions that are actually in game between him and PV make more sense as town-scum than scum-scum. I haven't looked at his interactions with Pumbaa in any depth.
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Post Post #6988 (isolation #206) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:20 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 6986, vezokpiraka wrote:Lynch ankamius. There is no discussion. There is no way we aren't lynching ankamius today. Anyone who wants something else should get a dayvig or shut up.

Why do you want to lynch Anamikus?

Who do you think is scum and, more importantly, why? (I don't care about your thoughts on mastin, so other thoughts, please.)

What do you think about TSO?
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Post Post #6991 (isolation #207) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:16 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Yes, that would be the general idea behind the utility of an Anamikus lynch...

But since I don't feel the chance of Anamikus being a bad guy is all that high and there are very many benefits to getting rid of a scum player before the night phase, I would rather lynch TSO today.
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Post Post #6993 (isolation #208) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:25 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 6992, Metal Sonic wrote:I think that the chance of Ankamius being scum is high.

Yes, your ~magic reasons~ for thinking Anamikus is a bad guy are very compelling.
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Post Post #7039 (isolation #209) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:10 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

It's not a doc claim, it's a role-stopper claim.
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Post Post #7055 (isolation #210) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:36 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I'm sorry that I criticised you for not wanting to post in the game thread, Anamikus.

I'm adopting that approach now.

Please vig me, FourTrouble.
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Post Post #7079 (isolation #211) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:15 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

That argument would make sense if Pumbaa was his original target. That argument only really works if ooba is scum with Pumbaa and FourTrouble.
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Post Post #7081 (isolation #212) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:18 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Read (or skim) from here.

Pumbaa is roasted four pages later.
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Post Post #7082 (isolation #213) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:27 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

It's not 100% that FourTrouble is town but there's a certain line you have to draw somewhere when assessing actions in a game, because technically any action
could
come from scum.
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Post Post #7085 (isolation #214) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:45 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7083, Ankamius wrote:I can see where you're coming from.

I'm not convinced that the ooba kill was actually sent and I'm really wary of how FourTrouble reacted to Ozgin's alignment claim now that I'm looking back at it, but I'll stop this angle for now.

That said, I've spent pages and pages in my neighborhood explaining why Snowflake is unlikely to be town but most people seem convinced vig shot on scum = town. It's almost at the point where I'm hoping he's not town just because it would be a crushing blow to my faith in humanity if he is.

To be honest, I think people aren't taking into account that the easiest way to find scum in this game is to look at who pikari thinks is most likely town. Pumbaa -> Snowflake... I'm expecting tonight pikari will protect TSO because it would be an absolute travesty if an obvtown player like TSO were to die. And he's probably going for the trifecta of "most anti-town use of your ability imaginable".
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Post Post #7088 (isolation #215) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:59 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If your play is a model of good town play, then I'm going to reiterate my request to FourTrouble.

@FourTrouble,

Please kill me tonight. Put me out of my misery. You'll have my everlasting gratitude.
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Post Post #7091 (isolation #216) » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:08 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

VOTE: ZeL1nK

Please, FourTrouble. Mercy.
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Post Post #7101 (isolation #217) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:43 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

That's some groundbreaking analysis.

Don't hurt yourself.
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Post Post #7128 (isolation #218) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:06 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

no
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Post Post #7130 (isolation #219) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:08 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

1
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Post Post #7145 (isolation #220) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:42 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

No it wouldn't, and you're using it as an excuse to provide zero content.

If you were actually town, there are about a bajillion possible reasons the mod might have made such a mistake, and that's
if
mastin is even town and being truthful about the reason for the mod error.

You've given up because you're scum.
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Post Post #7152 (isolation #221) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:32 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I don't understand TSO town reads
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Post Post #7154 (isolation #222) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:40 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I feel like whenever I'm not sure what's obvious, I can always count on you to state it for me.

Thank you for being there for me, Snowflake-senpai.
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Post Post #7158 (isolation #223) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:42 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Come home, Espeonage. We miss you.
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Post Post #7160 (isolation #224) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:03 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

By the way, FourTrouble, please don't hero-vig mastin.

I would
really
like to see the logic behind clearing the neighborhood, just so
if
ZZZX is scum, he's not allowed to coast to endgame on "mastin said he's 100% town" logic.

I also don't particularly think mastin is scum here, but I realise I'm in the minority with this opinion. I think I'm right, though.

Also, please select TSO as your new target. He's probably bulletproof scum so there's no point shooting him.

Thanks in advance.
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Post Post #7169 (isolation #225) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:14 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

It won't.
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Post Post #7174 (isolation #226) » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:26 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

That is true.

It's like they say. Assuming makes a buttocks out of you and a guy named Ming.
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Post Post #7194 (isolation #227) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:14 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Why Imperium?
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Post Post #7196 (isolation #228) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:16 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

There have been no vowels.
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Post Post #7198 (isolation #229) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:23 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I want to lynch TSO today (shock and awe as nobody saw this plot twist) but I have popcorn ready and waiting for mastin's
Big Reveal!
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Post Post #7199 (isolation #230) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:29 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

"OK, listen guys... My dog ate my role PM, so I just need ONE. MORE. DAY."
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Post Post #7203 (isolation #231) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If I ask why again, will I get an answer?
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Post Post #7206 (isolation #232) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:10 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I sincerely doubt he was a scum kill.
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Post Post #7208 (isolation #233) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:14 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Because not only was he very lynchable (high on a lot of people's suspicion lists), there are many, many, many other people in this game it makes more sense to shoot (like, oh, I don't know, anyone who wasn't lynch bait).

It seems about a thousand times more likely he was shot by FourTrouble than shot by bad guys.
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Post Post #7212 (isolation #234) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:20 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If mastin claimed scum, posted her role PM word for word proving she was scum and the mod for some reason didn't mod kill her, I would still want to lynch you over her (even if you weren't one of the partners listed in her role PM).

That is how much I want to lynch you, TSO.

But we can still be friends, right?

I would rather not speculate on where the scum kill went, given there are many possibilities. It seems about as silly as me saying, "where do you propose FourTrouble's kill went?"

I don't see the bad guys killing Andrius. It's as simple as that.
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Post Post #7220 (isolation #235) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:30 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7211, Heartless wrote:
In post 7208, ZeL1nK wrote:Because not only was he very lynchable (high on a lot of people's suspicion lists), there are many, many, many other people in this game it makes more sense to shoot (like, oh, I don't know, anyone who wasn't lynch bait).

mmmmmm i wouldn't have voted him

neither would ooba

and it doesn't hurt that scum just flipped in the egyptian hood

OK. That's great to hear! It doesn't change what I said, though!

By the way, if there
is
a rat in our neighborhood (and I doubt there is one), it would almost certainly have to be Espeonage. But I have no reason to believe that is the case. So your malice towards the Romans seems ill-placed.

Do you perhaps have other thoughts on the game? Do you think TSO is town?
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Post Post #7224 (isolation #236) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7215, T S O wrote:So your only comment about the nightkill is "I don't think it was Andrius"? You have no theory, right or wrong, on who or where it actually went?

I have theories. I see no merit in talking about them, though, since they are just theories and won't add anything to the game. I could also be wrong if FourTrouble claims to have not shot Andrius, so there's no point in going into all the possible explanations for a missing scum kill. The fact that you're oddly fixated on this doesn't surprise me, though, since you're attempting to cling to something that isn't important and use it as a way to appear like you're doing something. But alas, people will continue ignoring this and pretend you're not an incredibly obvious bad guy.

In post 7219, Heartless wrote:also, how do you balance multiple day kills?

give scum a day commute. that's what

This seems like rather flawed setup speculation, for a number of reasons.

In post 7222, Heartless wrote:i think tso would be ahead of andy in the vig kill line

I specifically told FourTrouble not to shoot TSO. TSO specifically claimed he would not die to a vig kill. There was no reason to shoot TSO over lynching him.

In post 7223, Heartless wrote:well did he describe what happened btwn. him and andy in the neighborhood? and how?

He gave a summary.

The night basically played out like this. Espeonage came into the neighborhood saying he thought I was a bad guy, I wondered where I'd gone wrong in raising him, Imperium said vanilla was better than chocolate and many boos were heard at this opinion, Imperium doesn't know what an Ornithomimus is (yes, I'm serious), I asked Espeonage about Andrius, he said probably town, I asked Espeonage for a run-down of the conversation, he said that they hadn't talked that much but they did talk about Harry Potter fan fictions and Anamikus being town, Andrius thinking mastin is scum, Andrius thinking his neighborhood was town and apparently a little talk about Imperium and I (though he admitted this was stretching the extent of their conversation, since they really didn't talk that much apparently).

That's about as much as we discussed about that particular subject.
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Post Post #7226 (isolation #237) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:58 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

He admitted that, too, though not in those words.
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Post Post #7229 (isolation #238) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:08 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7227, Heartless wrote:curious how much did he talk about andy's read on him?

Not at all that I can remember or find from a skim through the discussions last night.

Though if you're suggesting this somehow implicates Espeonage and you think he killed off Andrius to silence him or something, I'm just going to smile politely.

In post 7228, T S O wrote:The reason we're having this discussion rather than another, more productive one is that when I asked you about your stances on mastin, which I'm definitely more interested in, you didn't actually reply to it.

You didn't ask that at all, but my stance on mastin isn't exactly hard to find. I made it pretty black and white at the end of yesterday.
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Post Post #7232 (isolation #239) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:21 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I didn't actually realise that was how his role worked, but I think he comes back half-way through the day (and he can use his role again half-way through this day phase, if he so chooses). Where half-way would be 10.5 days, I guess. You would have to ask him for more specifics.

If it was mentioned somewhere in the neighborhood prior to him using it, I glossed over it. It's a rather long neighborhood PT.
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Post Post #7247 (isolation #240) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:04 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7245, Espeonage wrote:probs going to have a 1v1 with Zelink

Well, that sounds sensible. I've been wanting to be in a neighborhood with you and this will give us that chance!
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Post Post #7265 (isolation #241) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:51 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

How about you meanwhile vote an actual bad guy, like TSO.
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Post Post #7279 (isolation #242) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:23 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If you don't have to pick yet, you may as well wait til the mastin stuff is sorted.

Though I'm pretty adamant about lynching TSO so I wouldn't care at all if you just make it TSO now.
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Post Post #7280 (isolation #243) » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:32 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Can you check whether you'd be informed if you lost BP?
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Post Post #7282 (isolation #244) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:29 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Snowflake isn't softing anything, he's trying to be clever by suggesting that you're scum who tried to kill pikari and failed.
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Post Post #7283 (isolation #245) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:33 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

What is your read on TSO, Heartless?
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Post Post #7287 (isolation #246) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:43 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7284, Heartless wrote:
In post 7282, ZeL1nK wrote:Snowflake isn't softing anything, he's trying to be clever by suggesting that you're scum who tried to kill pikari and failed.

It's be really nice if you stopped speaking for other people.

Perhaps it would be nice. We may never know, though.

Is (was?) the reason you harbor an intense hatred of Romans because you assumed Andrius was a scum kill?
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Post Post #7293 (isolation #247) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:06 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I would.
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Post Post #7324 (isolation #248) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:17 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7321, Heartless wrote:
In post 7311, mastin2 wrote:Heartless

I will freely admit that Anti and I are severely underachieving this game.

Part of the problem is that I haven't been able to really get myself happy with any town reads yet and I've struck out on all my scum reads so far. Anti's seemed to have a few moments of clarity because he picked up on red flags from Cephrir while I was fat and happy with a town read on him; trouble is, he seems really hit-and-miss since Ankamius flipped town and I think the data that's out there suggests farside is more likely to be town than not.

If you guys were going with the theory that there's 1 scum in each neighborhood, why did you want to lynch Anamikus?
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Post Post #7327 (isolation #249) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:24 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

VOTE: TSO
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Post Post #7330 (isolation #250) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:30 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I've explained why multiple times. I could break down why again. And why your play today reads like desperate scum trying to avoid a lynch rather than town actually scum hunting. When I get to a PC later, maybe I will (yet again).
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Post Post #7331 (isolation #251) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:32 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Please excuse my subpar play, I am still learning the game and am nowhere near your level yet.
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Post Post #7335 (isolation #252) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:40 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I need a PC to properly express why everything you're saying feels awkward. I lack the dexterity to do it on a phone.

But while it may be "confbias" (I disagree, it's no more bias than any other scum read from any other person, you're just not writing anything town), you're dismissing it like it has no merit when it's a stronger case than anyone else has so far presented in this game, and certainly far stronger than anything you've presented (which, so far, is a weak case on TD and... what? That mastin is scum because magic).
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Post Post #7337 (isolation #253) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:44 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I do but it's even harder on a phone. Sometimes I wish I was a Japanese schoolgirl... Purely to use my phone better, of course.
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Post Post #7345 (isolation #254) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:02 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

No
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Post Post #7411 (isolation #255) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:57 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7409, Heartless wrote:shit,,,,,

the fuck is wrong with me?

You appear to be suffering all the symptoms of a rather common disease known as readssuckitis. The cure is lynching TSO.
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Post Post #7415 (isolation #256) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:39 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I quite literally do not understand why anyone would be town-reading TSO.

I pointed out all the things wrong with his play in an albeit rather that I probably could have condensed into finer points, but this is the basic summary of his gameplay thus far:

- The lack of content in his posts. This has nothing to do with how much he's posted but
what
he's posted. Just as an example, there is literally nothing in his ISO resembling a reads list. He's thrown out a handful of reads so far in a 25-player game, and of those reads, he's come close to elaborating on maybe three of them, if that. All of the others are just "X is town" or "Y is scum".
- Active lurking; this is to do with how much he's posted. His ISO isn't exactly short, but the lack of content in it is because he's spent a majority of the game trying to appear like he's posting content without actually posting it. As an example, his fight with House that dominated a majority of his posts early D1. It was petty and unnecessary and served as nothing more than an excuse for him to write posts that added nothing to the game.
- He's spent a large portion of the game complaining that people are scum reading him. Not scummy in itself, but when he's using this as an excuse to not post content (complaining instead of providing content), I can only see scum motivation (Imperium did a good job of pointing this out recently).
- Interactions with both the D1 PV wagon and Pumbaa look bad (detailed a little in the wall).

The key point here is that there is absolutely no town motivation in the way TSO has approached the game so far. No, I don't think I'm exaggerating this at all. I do not see any town motivation, whatsoever.

What has he done today? A series of pointless posts followed by
more
complaints that people are scum reading him even though he's posting more.

What I see in the series of pointless posts is him trying to appear, again, like he's providing content without providing any. For example, the questions to me about where the scum kill went. They were pointless. It's like he came up to me and said, "I found a balloon in the park today and I think aliens came from outer space and left it here as a message for us!" And I respond with, "well no, I doubt that is the case." And he starts asking meaningless questions like, "Oh yeah, then how did it get there? Why didn't you provide an alternate explanation? It's just lazy to shoot down my theory without providing your own!" Absolutely ridiculous thinking and an absolutely pointless line of questioning.

Further, as Imperium has pointed out, he's using the suspicion on him as an excuse for not providing content. Oh, poor TSO, completely unable to scum hunt when someone suspects him. Yeah. That makes sense. Nobody in the history of ever has been able to scum hunt when there are people suspecting them, so it's understandable this is why TSO has not been making any efforts.

I also have minor qualms with some of the things he's doing today, like readily agreeing to the neighborhood theory for no good reason and the way he's approached mastin's claim (it does not look like the genuine reaction of someone hard scum-reading mastin).

And I have qualms with the way he's dismissing me overall, but this is a bit harder to explain and isn't entirely necessary when it's a minor point at best.

I do not get how anyone sees town in this play.
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Post Post #7416 (isolation #257) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:40 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Sorry, I should explain that the reason I think he made the series of pointless posts today was to give the illusion that he's providing content and being "active" because he thinks that is why people are scum reading him, so he thought if he was more active the scum reads would fade away. But he's still not providing any actual worthwhile content - he's not pushing any scum reads, he's basically trying to sideline as hard as possible and hope the suspicion on him goes away because he's posting more.

This isn't town.
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Post Post #7417 (isolation #258) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:50 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Also, all the "oh my gosh, this is so frustrating!" stuff reads really fake to me, so I don't get why the AtE looks town. It looked fake when he said it about the mastin thing yesterday, it looks fake today as well.
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Post Post #7418 (isolation #259) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:53 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7312, Heartless wrote:
Everyone's
neighborhoods are all town. The Roman one. The Chinese one. The Greek one. The Mayan one. It's nothing short of remarkable.

Is the logic absolutely bulletproof? No, but I feel like logic can only get so far in this game anyway and it's little things like this that make me think people who are so gung-ho about their neighborhoods have other motives.

I agree it's a problem that most people are protecting their own neighborhoods. It makes coming to a consensus on anyone rather difficult.

On the other hand, do you really think Imperium is the type of player(s) to say those things without consideration? Do I look like the type of player who says something like that without carefully examining all the facts? I've told you that
IF
there happens to be scum in our neighborhood, it would be Espeonage, but I have seen no reason to believe Espeonage is scum (I'm not going to talk about all the reasons I think Imperium is town and I know you're not working on the same information I am, but some of those reasons are in-thread things - like interactions with Pumbaa and their play in general). This doesn't necessarily mean we are an all-town neighborhood, but that I currently have no reason to believe we aren't. I think that's what Imperium has been saying, too.

Also, I don't think there's any ulterior motive to most people protecting their own neighborhood. By default, a majority of the players doing this have to be town, anyway. I would, however, suggest that most people are using extremely flawed logic to clear their neighborhoods. Mastin is one such person, since nothing she wrote really clears ZZZX in any way (I never expected anything better from mastin's explanation, though, so this doesn't bother me). pikari is probably another, because I sincerely doubt he has any good reason to think his neighborhood is all town (I can understand the Magua read, but TSO? Yeah... I'm guessing that read is about as strong as his reasons for thinking Pumbaa was town). But I don't think pikari is scum, either, just misguided.
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Post Post #7419 (isolation #260) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:00 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7368, Imperium wrote:
In post 7356, T S O wrote:Cephrir's reaction to it.

It's also a pretty easy thing to throw a gigantic fit about when it's stupid reasoning in the first place. I throw fits about things that are stupid as scum because they're stupid and free passion points. I don't see why Cephrir wouldn't do the same.

Adding onto this, I think the reason Pumbaa might have tried to stop the speculation is because:

(a) It's something he thinks he would do as town (I sincerely doubt Pumbaa actively does anything like that unless he thinks he would also do it as town), and
(b) It might eventually lead you to suspecting him for "the wrong reasons" - it was pre-emptive stifling of the fire, I'd guess

I think reading into it any other way is silly.
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Post Post #7421 (isolation #261) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:25 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Does the opposite happen if he flips scum?
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Post Post #7424 (isolation #262) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:33 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I think has some points that I doubt TSO has any good answer for. (Other than the first one, obviously.)
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Post Post #7427 (isolation #263) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:59 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Grand.
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Post Post #7429 (isolation #264) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:12 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

You get "order aligned" or "not order aligned"?

I would suggest Snowflake, but that requires pikari not targeting him.
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Post Post #7430 (isolation #265) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:13 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

To be clear, I'd like to clear up whether he's third party, I don't feel all that strongly he's on the Pumbaa scum team (but clearing that up as well couldn't hurt).
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Post Post #7434 (isolation #266) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:22 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If TSO actually flips scum like I expect he will, group scum isn't doing *that* well at the moment, so yeah, I would actually like to find out whether Snowflake is third party.

I mean, if TSO flips scum, we're looking at what? 2 more group scum? In 17 players? Who cares? I'm more worried about a potential third party coasting by as "confirmed town".
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Post Post #7437 (isolation #267) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:35 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7436, ooba wrote:What I'm more interested in is that MS's ultimate should have reset by today. But he makes no mention of it.

It's tomorrow.
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Post Post #7438 (isolation #268) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:39 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

If TSO flips scum, we should just have a proper mass claim tomorrow where all the information is on the table. I think it will help with co-ordinating actions more effectively and clear up some things.
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Post Post #7442 (isolation #269) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:49 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7426, vezokpiraka wrote:
In post 7421, ZeL1nK wrote:Does the opposite happen if he flips scum?

I'm down. I'll sheep you if tso flips scum.

Actually, would you agree to this condition as well? If TSO flips scum, you use your ability on me tonight. I will most likely only need it for one night, so after that do whatever.
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Post Post #7447 (isolation #270) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:10 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

It's interesting that the mastin wagon there contains a lot of the unconfirmed players on the D1 AP wagon.
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Post Post #7453 (isolation #271) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:23 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I'm inclined to agree with F-16's assessment that Pumbaa most likely knew it wasn't the hammer. It may have been manufactured.
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Post Post #7454 (isolation #272) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:25 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7451, T S O wrote:ZeL1nk, will respond to you when I get back from school hopefully.

To be honest, I'm not looking for a response, because any rhetoric you spew will just amount to, "nuh uh!" or give you a further excuse to defend yourself instead of providing content.

If you're town, do something town instead.
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Post Post #7465 (isolation #273) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:51 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Look, I'm pretty sure there's no response you could possibly give that would satisfactorily explain your behaviour this game. I know you can probably come up with a bunch of excuses. I'm not really interested in reading them if you somehow happen to be town. So you can waste your time making excuses or trying to dismiss points I've made or, if you are town, you can choose to use your time more efficiently and actually scum hunt, provide reads with reasoning, talk about your thoughts on different things that have happened in this game and so on and so forth. Do that and respond
if
you really want to and have enough time I guess, but I'm not interested in reading a wall of excuses or complaints about how it's not fair that you're being scum read.
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Post Post #7466 (isolation #274) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:56 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7461, T S O wrote:Does anyone have a legitimate townread on farside?

I would be surprised if anyone didn't, actually. It would just show a lack of reading.

I know Magua was (is?) scum-reading Farside, but he legitimately hasn't read a substantial portion of the game.

I also doubt pikari is scum.
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Post Post #7473 (isolation #275) » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:37 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

It's OK. I love you, Snowflake.
Or I would if you weren't third party.
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Post Post #7475 (isolation #276) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:04 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I don't know, but thinking about that seems about as fruitful as trying to guess AP's kill mechanism(s) pre-flip. It's not something I particularly care to speculate about right now since I'm not advocating a lynch on you at the moment.
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Post Post #7516 (isolation #277) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:15 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

You could probably guess, but it's not exactly playing into my read on him any more or less than other things.
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Post Post #7518 (isolation #278) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:26 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

You would assume correctly.
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Post Post #7539 (isolation #279) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:16 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7534, T S O wrote:I'm not scumreading mastin, and I'm not scumreading ZeL1nk, and I am scumreading TWIE.

Your memory's not on point today.

This is interesting to me, because for someone who apparently hasn't been reading the game, I'm interested in knowing how you went from scum reading me at the end of D2 to having a magical town read on me.
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Post Post #7541 (isolation #280) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7538, Magua wrote:Given a lack of 3rd party kills, tbqh I wouldn't care if Metal Sonic were to claim chinese racist. I'd be like, "Great, let's arrange things so that you win with town."

Pretty much why I don't care whether or not Snowflake is third party at the moment.

I mean, he
could
be town and all the off notes about his play could just be in my imagination, but if he's third party, he's not that big a threat at the moment.
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Post Post #7542 (isolation #281) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:35 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7537, T S O wrote:I would be extremely surprised if both Heartless and Imperium are town.

Why?

Imperium has been far more town than I have. On an interactions level (especially with Pumbaa, but also PV), it doesn't look like scum-scum interactions. On play, they look town to me. I've never understood where Magua's read on them came from.

Heartless? Eh... I think there are some minor off notes in their play, but I don't really think they're scum right now. I could perhaps see someone thinking this but I'd like to know why.
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Post Post #7546 (isolation #282) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:53 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I would be happy with just sensible reasons. I'm not expecting cases, though that would be nice for a bit of depth (and to save asking for elaboration on reasons).
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Post Post #7553 (isolation #283) » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:21 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7551, T S O wrote:But Ceph could have been in danger of being shot by something else - there had just been a Third Party flip.

It looks like you have a lot of issues with pikari's claim, but apparently his role and usage are pretty damn town. Perhaps I'm not the brightest tool in the shed, but that seems rather inconsistent.
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Post Post #7556 (isolation #284) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:05 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Would you like for me to write you a formal invitation, perhaps with instructions on how to do it?

Or is there something physically inhibiting you from doing so? If so, my condolences and I hope you recover soon.
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Post Post #7569 (isolation #285) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:35 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7558, Heartless wrote:
In post 7550, vezokpiraka wrote:The why would I havr claimed I protected ceph night 1? Ceph wasn't in danger of getting lynched.

the second part actually makes a gambit make MORE sense because it gives MORE payoff with LESS risk. if ceph were to flip, it would look bad. but if it didn't look like ceph was flipping any time soon the town cred for you two would be worth it.

This seems really silly.

Let's break this down.

Do you think Pumbaa rolecopped Mask N1? All signs from Pumbaa D2 suggest this is the case, so the scum team would have known a doc was in the game. In that situation, you think pikari openly claimed to have protected Pumbaa for no good reason, other than potential WIFOM if Pumbaa flipped down the line... Even at the risk of going into a 1v1 with an actual town protective role? Like, a move that would have to have been calculated
assuming
people would react in a particular way (because if people reacted like, oh I don't know, how you're currently reacting to it, then it would be all for naught, right?) and just for the potential of getting some town cred that would probably be quesitoned down the line (or possibly even forgotten by the time Pumbaa flipped, unless people went back and looked at it).

There are soooooo many things wrong with this theory that it makes more sense to just apply Occam's Razor here. pikari
could
be scum, but that scenario seems much, much less likely than pikari being town.

And the fact that you're voting him because
maybe
he's scum trying to WIFOM seems really absurd to me. I also don't understand where you're getting "two town docs flipped" from. I see Mask. Who else?

This sort of logic is one of the things I think is really off about your play. Ignoring the fact that your reads so far haven't been all that great, you've been pushing incredibly silly lines of logic (especially today). The funny thing is, I think what you were saying about Andrius being a scum kill at the start of today actually makes you more likely to be town, so it saddens me deeply that the way you're approaching the game looks like you've opened about 50 tins of paint and just started inhaling for a minute or two before opening MS and writing posts here.

I'm assuming you think TSO is town now? If so, why? AtE? Is that it?
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Post Post #7570 (isolation #286) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:37 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7566, T S O wrote:Your colossal levels of derp.

Why would that make me town? Can scum never "derp"?

Because apparently my case on you is all about inactivity (it's not... but that's what you're claiming it is), and that doesn't exactly seem like a tough case to push as scum.
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Post Post #7571 (isolation #287) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:40 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7568, T S O wrote:Imperium: Their reason for voting me is awful and shitty and they're probably scum for it.

Imperium is still far more town than I am (both via play and interactions with flipped scum), and I'd still like to hear why you think they're scum.

On another note, you apparently think Heartless is scum but you're more than happy to jump straight on a wagon with him.

Yeah, counter-wagon, whatever, but you're still listening to someone you said you thought was scum.

And, surprise, surprise... You're still not talking about your reads.
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Post Post #7579 (isolation #288) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:06 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7573, Heartless wrote:they didn't necessarily know about f-16's role, though

and i think the reason for claiming would be pretty simple.

vezok claims to protect ceph. no kill. everyone jumps to the conclusion ceph and vezok are town.

So your theory is that scum chose not to kill N1? Or what? Because if pikari is scum and they
actually
got their kill blocked, that plan doesn't work, does it?

(I also don't think kill-stops are on the same level as regular protective roles, especially one that was
at best
1-shot, but may never have had a chance to go off given the conditions for activating it.)
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Post Post #7580 (isolation #289) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:08 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7578, T S O wrote:I'm reading it as a Doctor from n3 on optimally - I don't think Lovestruck wears off, even if Share the Love does.

I've asked dramonic about this.

Lovestruck doesn't "wear off" but he can only activate it once off any 6 players.

So to do it twice he'd need 6 different players than the first 6.

Also, getting 6 in the first place isn't exactly easy with the amount of killing roles in the game.
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Post Post #7581 (isolation #290) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:11 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7572, T S O wrote:Literally, your big wall that you're so proud of goes thus: Paragraph 1, inactive. Paragraph 2, no content. Paragraph 3, getting mad when people scumread him instead of posting content. Paragraph 4, getting in fights instead of posting content, Paragraph 5, no content. You have one paragraph, the smallest one you wrote, about how my interactions with Cephrir apparently making me scum. That's the sum total of your wall when you remove "inactivity and co." from the equation.

You're literally using the word literally wrong, especially since this is a rather extreme over-simplification that misses the point.

Also, you weren't "inactive".
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Post Post #7588 (isolation #291) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:15 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7584, Heartless wrote:
In post 7579, ZeL1nK wrote:So your theory is that scum chose not to kill N1? Or what? Because if pikari is scum and they actually got their kill blocked, that plan doesn't work, does it?

maybe one of the "action-immunes" or bp's that everyone and their dog seems to have upon fulfilling a certain condition (ft, mastin)
roleblock
jailkeep
redirect

it's a role madness game. take your pick.

It baffles me that you understand that there are many possibilities to explain the missing kill/s N1, but you think scum's grand plan was, "hey let's claim I protected my buddy and then people will not question it and assume we're both town!!"
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Post Post #7601 (isolation #292) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:29 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7592, Heartless wrote:
In post 7588, ZeL1nK wrote:it baffles me that you understand that there are many possibilities to explain the missing kill/s N1, but you think scum's grand plan was, "hey let's claim I protected my buddy and then people will not question it and assume we're both town!!"


well

it worked

... No, not really. Like, all of...
absolutely no one
thought pikari protecting Pumbaa was the reason for the lack of kill.

I'm getting a headache. It's truly flabbergasting that you don't see how nonsensical your points about pikari are.

If you legitimately think pikari is scum for other reasons, then state them, because what you're pushing right now makes about as much sense as people who wear hats indoors. There's no sun! What are you doing? Don't tell me it's a fashion statement.
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Post Post #7612 (isolation #293) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:35 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7604, Heartless wrote:TELL ME ZELINK, WHY IS HE VOTING TSO RIGHT NOW WHEN HE'S BEEN SWEARING UP AND DOWN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS ALL TOWN

OH, IS IT ALL SO THAT HE KNOWS WHO TO "SHEEP" WHEN TSO FLIPS?

/WINKWINKWINK NOTHING GOING ON THERE

I don't think he's been swearing up and down that his neighborhood is all town, but I also don't see someone changing their mind as scummy. My points were pretty good and I'm a pretty cool guy, so I could see someone being charmed by my wiles and agreeing with my super-awesome points.

Also, your point here seems to be founded on TSO being town. I sincerely doubt this is the case.

In post 7606, T S O wrote:Hey, ZeL1nk, what was vezok's read on me at the start of today? Serious question.

Town with paranoia that you could be scum.
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Post Post #7616 (isolation #294) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:37 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I can be pretty convincing if I want to be.

I think.

Maybe.
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Post Post #7622 (isolation #295) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:43 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7620, Heartless wrote:/thought experiment

tso is lynched

flips town

you and zelink now owe him a "sheep"

THAT'S what vezok was focusing on

TSO isn't flipping town, but that seems like a silly thing to say when I could have just said no.

Then what?
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Post Post #7626 (isolation #296) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:44 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7621, Heartless wrote:
In post 7612, ZeL1nK wrote:I don't think he's been swearing up and down that his neighborhood is all town,

simple fact checking will tell you that he was

also, "changing your mind" when it's expedient to do so IS scummy

No, I know he was suggesting his neighborhood was town, but you're grossly exaggerating the extent to which he was doing it.

And no.
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Post Post #7629 (isolation #297) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:46 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7627, Heartless wrote:hello brick wall

i'm antihero

how's your day going today?

Is brick wall a compliment, like I'm a really strong player, strong as bricks even?

My day has been pretty good. I went for a run earlier and I feel pretty good right now.

How was your day?
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Post Post #7631 (isolation #298) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:50 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

I'll tell you what, Heartless.

If you vote TSO and he flips town, I will consider the possibility your reads haven't been completely inaccurate for the entire game.

Does this sound like a good deal? I'm a nice guy so I'm willing to be this generous.
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Post Post #7634 (isolation #299) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:53 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7632, Heartless wrote:
In post 7601, ZeL1nK wrote:... No, not really. Like, all of... absolutely no one thought pikari protecting Pumbaa was the reason for the lack of kill.

magua did

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6601383

No, he didn't. He quite literally just said that of the two currently (at the time) competing theories (TD roleblocking mastin and pikari protecting Pumbaa), the latter was more likely. He didn't even think Pumbaa was town.
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Post Post #7637 (isolation #300) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:56 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7634, ZeL1nK wrote:
In post 7632, Heartless wrote:
In post 7601, ZeL1nK wrote:... No, not really. Like, all of... absolutely no one thought pikari protecting Pumbaa was the reason for the lack of kill.

magua did

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6601383

No, he didn't. He quite literally just said that of the two currently (at the time) competing theories (TD roleblocking mastin and pikari protecting Pumbaa), the latter was more likely. He didn't even think Pumbaa was town.

Also, even if I did grant you this, that would just mean amending it to... one person total thought this, and only because other theories weren't on the table yet.

Whoop-de-doo, I guess?
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Post Post #7642 (isolation #301) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:02 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7640, Heartless wrote:
In post 7637, ZeL1nK wrote:Also, even if I did grant you this, that would just mean amending it to... one person total thought this, and only because other theories weren't on the table yet.

Whoop-de-doo, I guess?

it proves that the scum motivation for the gambit isn't ridiculous or implausible like your and magua are trying to paint it

OK.

I'm done discussing this with you.

I think I'm just going to ignore you for the rest of the game.

I have no interest in explaining why everything you're saying makes literally zero sense over and over and over again.

Good day to you, sir, and good luck with your defense of someone who is incredibly obvious scum. I wish you the best in your town-lynching adventures.
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Post Post #7652 (isolation #302) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:13 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7646, T S O wrote:Actually, let's talk about yours - I'd like to see the interactions influencing your Imperium read.

Virtually every interaction with Pumbaa, but especially things like the end of D1 (including the PV vote and the way that played out with Pumbaa) and the questioning and suspicion from them D2 re: Pumbaa.

I'm more than willing to bring up the specific interactions I'm talking about, but I would be doing that only in response to someone making a scum case on them. Otherwise, it's a waste of my time.

So make the case. Give the reasons. Justify your reads.
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Post Post #7662 (isolation #303) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:32 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

Vote TSO, ZZZX.
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Post Post #7667 (isolation #304) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:35 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7664, ZZZX wrote:
In post 7662, ZeL1nK wrote:Vote TSO, ZZZX.

i feel better about tso honestly but still not enough.

but I am looking at many interesting facts here. dont you have anything to comment on my like...

last 20 posts?

You're asking pointless questions instead of voting TSO.
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Post Post #7674 (isolation #305) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:39 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7670, ooba wrote:This game feels weird for some reason. If I had to guess, it's probably because of scum hardcore lurking and town fighting amongst each other.
- TheWayItEnds ( 5 days 22 hours )
- Espeonage ( 2 days 11 hours )
- theaceofspades ( 8 days 0 hours )

One of those should be vig killed after a TSO lynch.

I don't even have particularly strong feelings that any of them are scum, just they're clearly not playing the game.

I was going to suggest TAOS or TWIE.
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Post Post #7676 (isolation #306) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:40 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

(And all of them have posted elsewhere but not here since day start. Espy has all but disappeared from this game while posting elsewhere on site, which is annoying.)
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Post Post #7761 (isolation #307) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:42 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7678, ZZZX wrote:Zlink can you kindly answer my damn questions?

thanks

-Z

Your questions are about as pointless as the salad menu at McDonalds. I mean, honestly... Who goes to McDonalds for a salad? I get that they're trying to give off an image of promoting healthy eating, and as laughable as that is to begin with, but who honestly goes into a McDonalds thinking, "yes, I want to eat something healthy today and I cannot think of a better place to go!"

Let's take for instance your question about why pikari is still alive. It's been two days since his claim. In that time, one of the night kills went to someone who scum likely rolecopped and knew was a doc. The only other opportunity they've had to kill pikari since his claim is last night, and that kill is missing. There are a number of reasons the kill could be missing. The fact that pikari is still alive is not a big deal in any way, shape or form. Thus, an incredibly pointless question.

All of your questions are like this, so I'm ignoring them. If you want answers, ask better questions.

In post 7680, Drixx wrote:
In post 7676, ZeL1nK wrote:(And all of them have posted elsewhere but not here since day start. Espy has all but disappeared from this game while posting elsewhere on site, which is annoying.)


This is really dirty. I've been watching the game, and there were all of a sudden
pages
of posts since I checked last night. Before that the posts were just dribbles. If things are slow and then there's a short term spurt of activity, you're always gonna have people who weren't interested during the dribbles. Why are you looking to ding people for being inactive in a game that was, until quite recently, kind of barely sputtering along?

Ah, yes, good point.

The reason there are players who have posted elsewhere on site but still not checked into the game this day phase is because... the posts in the previous pages were just "dribbles". Things are slow not because people aren't posting (you know, like people who still haven't checked in this day phase), but because of other magical reasons. You bring up a strong argument. It's not at all suspicious that we have people avoiding the game for no good reason.

Thank you for your valuable input on the game state.

Please continue to be a shining beacon of town thinking, Drixx.

In post 7683, T S O wrote:Nah, I just wanted to see how willing you were to discuss your reads.

I mean, you called me scum for not doing so, yet you ...also refuse to do it. I guess we must both be scum, by your logic.

Um... what?

Like I get that you're not even trying to pretend to be town anymore (and it's hilarious that people like Heartless are giving you a free pass in spite of this), but I told you I am willing to discuss my reads and even
gave reasons
. What I said was that I would only be willing to go into copious amounts of detail if you first justify your reads with reasons of your own. I provided reasons. So far you've provided jack squat.

The way mafia works is when you call someone scum, you're supposed to back it up. It's not my job to write a thesis on why your scum reads are town if you can't even provide a single reason for thinking what you think. The burden of proof is on
you
, not me. I told you I'd go and quote all the things I think make Imperium is town after I see you come up with good reasons for thinking they're scum.

It does not surprise me in the least that you're trying to deflect this onto me rather than provide content.

Why anybody thinks you're town is beyond me.
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Post Post #7762 (isolation #308) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:56 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7705, T S O wrote:I mean, maybe ZeL1nk has posted some tosh about interactions with Cephrir making me scum and you town? The thing about these interactions is that they haven't actually materialised yet. And I don't think they will, either.

I did bring up exactly what I was referring to. It was in the original wall I wrote. I didn't detail it with mounds and mounds of quotes to prove the point, but you never asked me to (and, quite frankly, if you did now, I wouldn't - because you're just going to dismiss them as invalid the same way you've dismissed every other point against you as invalid... though if someone else wants to discuss it and argue that your interactions with scum make you more likely town, then I will discuss it with them).

I'll requote the relevant parts:

Spoiler:
In post 6775, ZeL1nK wrote:As far as interactions with currently flipped bad guys goes, I think Imperium did a good job summarizing what was suspicious about TSO's interactions with PV in . I also think his justification for this (that he doesn't like pushing null reads) looks like a poor excuse for the awkward way he interacted with the PV wagon. This just looks like a bad guy who doesn't want to bus his buddies.

But what about Glazed Ham? Well, his only real interactions with Pork Chops can be summarized as thus: Calling him town, calling him town some more, getting angry that Mouthwatering Slices of Delicious Bacon isn't explaining a scum read on him. Yes, this is literally all of the somewhat meaningful interactions between the two. They never really engage each other, they never push each other (granted, with yesterday playing out the way it did, this isn't as strong a point as it could be), they never asked each other any meaningful questions, they never went into any depth on their reads on each other, and so on and so forth.

Yet TSO would have us believe that these interactions are oh-so-town. Because he yelled expletives and declared Gammon an unholy abomination after declaring him to be town all game? Yeah, that sure as heck could not have come from partners in crime. No way, no how.

None of these interactions are grand-slam definite scum interactions (this is rarely the case with interactions, anyway). But, at best, your interactions with flipped scum so far have been shady. You defended one against a wagon on them D1 and interacted very awkwardly with another.

Also it seems to me that you're repeatedly obfuscating "explaining things" with "providing a plethora of quotes". I can give reasons without doing a PBPA analysis. So could you, theoretically, but you refuse to.
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Post Post #7765 (isolation #309) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:01 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7730, T S O wrote:I am -trying- to take the initiative with this game.

Really? Where and how?

Because so far you've refused to talk about reasons for your scum reads and sheeped someone you're apparently scum-reading.

That doesn't seem like taking much initiative to me, but what do I know? Perhaps this is one of them new ways of taking initiative and I'm just not hip to what you youngsters are jiving to nowadays.
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Post Post #7766 (isolation #310) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:05 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7746, ooba wrote:I would lynch Esp\Farside over TSO today. Interactions\positions\posting (or lack thereof) today seem to fit the scum profile.

I don't
really
think Espy is a bad guy here, even if he's lurking at the moment.

I'm pretty certain Farside('s slot) isn't a bad guy. I do not understand where scum reads on that slot are coming from.
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Post Post #7767 (isolation #311) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:07 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7764, Drixx wrote:I think ZeL1nK just did more to convince me that it's scum than any amount of posts by other players could.

Fantastic. Quite honestly, I do not care what you think because I don't think you're a competent enough player to know what you're talking about, as evident by your awkward defense of lurker slots for no good reason.

I would show you the meter that measures my care factor for your opinions on this game, but it's so far below zero that it's busted the meter.
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Post Post #7769 (isolation #312) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:41 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

You're incredibly sensitive if you consider that an insult.
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Post Post #7770 (isolation #313) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:42 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7768, Drixx wrote:Not only that, but assuming that you'll find scum amongst people with ridiculously long idle times in the game is just like asking to lose the game.

You should probably read.
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Post Post #7771 (isolation #314) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:45 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I really do have no interest in talking to you about why you're wrong. So I'm not going to.

I don't care how that makes you feel about me.

Honestly, I do not care what you think at all.
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Post Post #7773 (isolation #315) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:04 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7772, Drixx wrote:I just found the idea that the remaining scum would all be super idle to be unlikely.

Nobody said that.

Not even Ooba.
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Post Post #7774 (isolation #316) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:15 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Also I don't care what is or isn't poor form.

Your input so far this day phase has been... suggesting that lurking isn't necessarily scummy.

Yay. Thanks. I wasn't aware of this before, but now I am. Where we would be without you?

Do you know why I suggested one of the people not providing any content be vig-killed instead of suggesting we should blindly lynch one of the lurkers? I'll let you take a while to think about it and come up with an answer yourself.

In the mean time, if this is all you have to say about the game, then I really don't care about your input.

I don't care if this sounds harsh. I'm fed up with dealing with awful arguments in this game.

TSO should have been lynched already. He is plainly and obviously scum.
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Post Post #7777 (isolation #317) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:52 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I wouldn't trust a cop result on TSO even if it was wasted on him; I think he's been specifically asking for it for a reason, and it's not because he's town.

If mastin is truly an unlimited cop, scum have at least one way of getting around this. It's probably TSO.

Investigate someone else. After TSO is lynched.
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Post Post #7781 (isolation #318) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:49 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7780, Drixx wrote:There is a very specific reason I want to know
for sure
that TSO is scum, before he dies.

That's not going to happen, regardless of his alignment.

He's scum. He should die today. The only reason he wasn't lynched yesterday is because Anamikus was a utility lynch that allowed us to lynch TSO with benefits today. This was the only reason to think the Anamikus lynch was a good idea.
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Post Post #7788 (isolation #319) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:01 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

That's also why I don't like his sudden insistence that I'm town despite (apparently) scum reading my slot for most of the game. And also why I don't like him sheeping Heartless, who he listed as scum.

The series of events that led up to the Heartless sheep...
Spoiler:
In post 7459, T S O wrote:CHINESE :
Metal, Skybird
,
TWIE

NORSE:
The Mask, Ace
,
AP

MAYAN:
Xombie, ZZZX, Mastin

ROMAN:
Imperium
,
Solar, Bitmap, TD

HINDU:
Pere, Farside
,
FT, Anamikus

GREEK:
Magua
,
Vezo
,
Beast, TSO

EGYPTIAN:
ooba
,
Ceph
,
heartless, andy


Is what I'm going for now.

Heartless town.
In post 7537, T S O wrote:
In post 7536, Magua wrote:Assume there's three scum remaining (could also be four). Taking aside TWIE and MS, who else do you think it is?

I would be extremely surprised if both Heartless and Imperium are town.

Heartless scum? This is never explained despite multiple requests. pikari not mentioned, either. This is followed by...
In post 7559, Heartless wrote:VOTE: vezok

In post 7560, Heartless wrote:tso, vote with me if you want to live.

In post 7564, T S O wrote:VOTE: vezok

?

All of his reads look fake to me. These are just a couple of the more obvious ones, though.

The funny thing is Heartless is going on and on about pikari being scum for an inconsistent read but ignores the multiple inconsistencies in TSO's reads.
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Post Post #7798 (isolation #320) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:30 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7796, T S O wrote:I have to admit, it's tempting to just tell you lot to fuck off and lynch me if you want. There's literally a mountain of shit I'm expected to respond to every fucking day and it never ends up changing anything.

It doesn't change anything because you
never actually respond
to most of the stuff you're asked.
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Post Post #7806 (isolation #321) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:16 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

ZZZX, my love. What do I need to do to get you to vote TSO?
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Post Post #7807 (isolation #322) » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:24 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Should I write you poetry?

I could give you a massage.

Would you like to use my lap as a pillow and have me sing sweet lullabies to you as you doze off?
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Post Post #7815 (isolation #323) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:00 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7431, mastin2 wrote:
In post 7341, Imperium wrote:I don't understand why ZZZX is 100% confirmed to you, mastin: all I got was that he targeted you with an ability that was confirmed (what ability?) and that he hasn't used a night action since D1.
An ability that was confirmed. :P

Plus, other things that have happened in there make ZX town too.
At this point, I'd basically say that I'd let myself be lynched before ZX or Drixx, conditional on my flip confirming them as town. (I
could
out the info, as an alternative, but honestly, I think it's knowledge better taken to the grave than outted, because they are not scum and thus the only people gaining from it would be scum.)
...Obviously not exactly my plan A at this point, mind you. :P My plan is to get a guilty so that I can deliver swift and decisive death upon the scum, conftowning them in the process.

In post 7313, mastin2 wrote:
In post 7306, T S O wrote:why didn't you fucking confirm me
Because of the happy accident. With you having
not
been investigated N2 as I had intended, I went on to investigate Magua, knowing if you visited anyone, I'd see it. It'd also confirm Magua one way or the other, when Magua was a major figure of interest to me. I did not buy him being town like others were. Incidentally, I wanted to investigate Magua D2 and even tried changing my bees target to him, but dram said that day actions, unlike night actions, are locked in and can't be changed so I was stuck with you N2. (Or would've been.)

Basically, I submitted your name D2, thinking it'd be a good choice.
I grew suspicious of Magua, and wanted it there instead; the mod wouldn't allow the change.
I decided, "Oh, well, still a good investigate", and was resolved to make it N2.
I wasn't around N2.
D3, I submitted Magua, who I wanted to investigate.
With you tagged already, and already wanting to investigate Magua, I investigated Magua.]

Made sense to me.
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Post Post #7852 (isolation #324) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:14 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

What are you actually suggesting pikari lied about?
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Post Post #7854 (isolation #325) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:25 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

No, I'm reading. I would like an explanation from you.

Your initial argument seems to be he wouldn't vouch for his neighborhood as town. It was pointed out that he didn't do this. 3000 posts into the game is reaching into D2 now and that's the first time you can find pikari calling beast town.

Unless your argument is simply, "he couldn't possibly have a town read on me for any reason 582 posts into the game." In which case, I don't think your argument is that strong.
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Post Post #7855 (isolation #326) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:28 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Like the entirety of your is shatted by the fact that he didn't suggest he thinks beast could be town until D2. Unless you're suggesting that by that point it was impossible for him to have town reads on the people in his neighborhood for some reason.

I mean, yes, he could be scum who did that. You're yet to explain why this is more likely. The argument in #7386 is founded on it being an unlikely conclusion to draw as town at that point in the game.
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Post Post #7856 (isolation #327) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:33 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I mean, quite literally the scenario in #7836 that you said would happen if pikari was town
did
happen, except it was with beast. And then he said he got a town read on beast from talking to him in the neighborhood overnight.

Is it impossible for this to have happened?

Or is your argument simply that he couldn't possibly think you're town for early-game posting? Because that's a silly argument, if that's the case. Early game reads don't need to be that strong and early game reads don't really need to be based on amazing, concrete evidence that someone is town.

Where is the "
flat-out lying
" that you're suggesting pikari did?
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Post Post #7857 (isolation #328) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:38 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

I'm sorry if my questions appear dumb to someone of your intellectual status. I'm just trying to understand what's going on because I'm a bit slower than others.

Am I missing obvious things here? Would you please be so kind as to explain what I'm missing in what you're writing?

If your aim is to get pikari lynched because you truly think he's scum, it would help if you clarify this seemingly major inconsistency in the case you wrote or just
flat-out tell me
what I'm missing here.
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Post Post #7863 (isolation #329) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:07 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7859, Metal Sonic wrote:This is a legit argument, by the way. Unless T S o is the last member of scum, I too doubt that the roleblock was the reason for no kill

I'll tell you the same thing I said in the neighborhood when I was considering options last night.

TSO was a possibility if the scum team was assuming he was going to be lynched today anyway. They might have sent him to perform the kill because who cares if he somehow gets caught? He was pretty darn high on the list of lynch candidates today and it would keep whoever he's scum with safe from potential shenanigans (tracks, watches, the possibility I'd roleblock someone other than TSO, etc). I acknowledged that I'd been hounding TSO and that it's not exactly news I was a roleblocker so they might assume TSO is going to be roleblocked and not send him. If he's scum, it was a WIFOM call. Risk a less-suspicious member of the team going down or just send TSO because worst-case scenario is he's lynched the next day, which was likely to happen regardless.

All that said, I think it's just as likely that the scum team may have done something else, like taken a shot at FourTrouble to get rid of the 1xBP, or there could be some unclaimed interference that caused a missing kill. Hey, maybe Heartless was right and they actually shot Andrius (who also happened to be vig killed).

TSO is probably scum regardless, though, so I don't really care whether or not I happened to block the kill.
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Post Post #7869 (isolation #330) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:53 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Why is it a "big if"?

Answer without giving a vague, "tee hee, it's a secret!"
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Post Post #7873 (isolation #331) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:09 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

Have you considered the possibility your reads are awful and TSO is scum?

Because you were all for Anamikus being scum yesterday and that worked out well.

But when actual scum is being run up, you and Heartless are all "it doesn't feel right!" or "the wagon dynamics!"
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Post Post #7874 (isolation #332) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:15 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

In post 7872, mastin2 wrote:Because let's be honest, if a TSO lynch goes through it will be purely because of town apathy and nothing more.

Yeah, sure.

It's absolutely nothing to do with him being scum. Or the pages and pages of arguments for why he's scum.

It'll be town apathy that causes what is arguably the best lynch today to go through.

You're right.

My mistake.
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Post Post #7876 (isolation #333) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:55 pm

Post by ZeL1nK »

You have no reads. Fantastic.

I'm so glad I replaced into this game. It's been an absolute ball so far.
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Post Post #7890 (isolation #334) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:36 am

Post by ZeL1nK »

*FourTrouble, FourTrouble, FourTrouble!*

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