SMITE Role Madness Mafia (OVER AT LAST!)

[Heartless]

Ankamius, TSO, theaceofspades, farside22, ooba, Heartless, TheWayItEnds, Andrius

i agree
i also agree w/ this order

the game will end before you reach farside

[Heartless]

Metal Sonic's play was bad today from the very beginning. He's either really bad town or apathetic scum right now.

oh my god can someone please shoot this?

[Heartless]

My working theory for the remaining scum are: Solar Wind, Ankamius, TSO, and RachMarie.

I ACTUALLY
think ankamius has the highest chance of flipping scum out of all these.

pv was on the short list of scum back in the reads list in Post 1536 and never left, but he was nowhere to be found in the vote. he even called farside's vote on him "town" (Post 847) but never cared to join the wagon (backseat driving the wagon). "Metal Sonic feels so null it hurts." is a weird sentence for someone as polarizing as metal sonic and that's out of place. there's also the fact that he stayed away from the aceofspades wagon like it had herpes Post 1542. and when i say "stayed away from it" i mean "it was the only person he didn't have a read on" even though THREE OF HIS FIVE SCUMREADS WERE VOTING THE WAGON SO HEY MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING. nope, apparently not.

he didn't bother to repeat or follow up on the questions to me when i posted my reads list. asking me about FT is also weird since i was town reading all his scum reads. the white-knighting of rach in Post 4022 isn't warranted and is pretty overdone. so is the WKing for beast; Post 4193, and for all the shit about wagon composition it didn't even end up seeming to matter anyway

the td vote doesn't follow from all the other reads. doesn't gel.

here ya' go zelink

[Heartless]

ph'nglui mglw'nafh cthulhu r'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

[Heartless]

heartless, do you have a night action?

nope

[Heartless]

by the way

i'm back to thinking farside is scum

[Heartless]

farside can be town.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ceph goes out of his way to pooh-pooh the farside case and farside is TOWN for that?

nooooooooo

[Heartless]

Spoiler: cephrir gives bullshit about farside[/spoiler

as much as i have expressed my secret paranoia suspicion on farside in my neighborhood

i do not see scum cephrir talking to scum farside like this. farside can be town.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh excuse me

your diaper needs changing or mine does

what was in that spoiler?

[Heartless]

nope.jpg

VOTE: imperium

[Heartless]

I doubt it was scum

why do you doubt it was scum?

[Heartless]

by the way, esp, since you're here.

how've things been going in your hood?

[Heartless]

mostly an impulse
UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

i've been looking at this for about an hour and 45 minutes now and all i have to show for it is a dump in the hood qt. i am absolutely no closer to getting a satisfactory answer than when i started.

[Heartless]

i now have a sudden overwhelming impulse to vote esp

[Heartless]

VOTE: esp

[Heartless]

looking more

my desire to lynch anyone not in the roman neighborhood is at exactly zero

[Heartless]

If I ask why again, will I get an answer?

probably not immediately b/c i'm still scattered

BUT

i think andy was the scumkill

and i think that's important somehow

[Heartless]

what makes you doubt that?

[Heartless]

Because not only was he very lynchable (high on a lot of people's suspicion lists), there are many, many, many other people in this game it makes more sense to shoot (like, oh, I don't know, anyone who wasn't lynch bait).

mmmmmm i wouldn't have voted him

neither would ooba

and it doesn't hurt that scum just flipped in the egyptian hood

[Heartless]

there's also this

Ok, pissed off.

First you guys decide to lynch town, Andy and I were getting bloody pissed off and waiting until we could come back and get the hell rid of that wagon. Andy provided a compelling argument for why Ank was town and I accepted that.
Second you guys don't even let us do that. You go and bloody make the lynch when there is still ages on the clock and two people who have fucking opinions.
Thirdly, whoever the fuck shot Andy, and I doubt it was scum, needs to get their head out of their arse. Why the fuck would you shoot someone that had just spent two phases with someone to try and get a handle on the player. I was intending to come in here to a fucking happy place and be able to reign terror with Andy, and honestly a dead Andy is wind out of my sails.

Now mastin, fucking tell me something that can improve my mood or I will push Andy's number 1 wanted lynch in his honor.

when andy came back to tell us what he talked about, he did NOT leave us w/ the impression everything between him and esp were all buddy-buddy. i don't really buy into this "happy place" narrative esp has going on here.

[Heartless]

yep, looking at what andy said last night + esp's opening posts, stuff doesn't add up

VOTE: espeonage

[Heartless]

I don't see the bad guys killing Andrius. It's as simple as that.

i do
and it is as simple as that

also, how do you balance multiple day kills?

give scum a day commute. that's what

[Heartless]

By the way, if there is a rat in our neighborhood (and I doubt there is one), it would almost certainly have to be Espeonage. But I have no reason to believe that is the case. So your malice towards the Romans seems ill-placed.

well it's not in ours. i'm at about 95% on that.

[Heartless]

also, your vig argument cuts both ways

i think tso would be ahead of andy in the vig kill line

[Heartless]

By the way, if there is a rat in our neighborhood (and I doubt there is one), it would almost certainly have to be Espeonage. But I have no reason to believe that is the case. So your malice towards the Romans seems ill-placed.

well did he describe what happened btwn. him and andy in the neighborhood? and how?

b/c andy's description to us there was definitely a bit of friction there, not this "reign of terror together bffs" thing

[Heartless]

"they didn't talk that much" ---------> "esp was lurking his ass off" in andy's story

[Heartless]

curious how much did he talk about andy's read on him?

[Heartless]

Heartless did you try to visit Vezok piraka last night? I thought you didn't have a night action ?_?

We did not and we do not have a night action, notwithstanding your soft-claimed investigative results that you don't have.

[Heartless]

Snowflake isn't softing anything, he's trying to be clever by suggesting that you're scum who tried to kill pikari and failed.

It's be really nice if you stopped speaking for other people.

[Heartless]

What is your read on TSO, Heartless?

Anti thinks he's the "group-thinky" answer and said he'll look over what made people call him scummy in the first place.
I'm still in the "re-orienting myself to the game" stage so I have no idea.

[Heartless]

I shot Andrius btw -- not sure if mafia night-kill failed or if they killed him too...

There goes Anti's string theory.

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

I spent some time looking over Imperium and I don't have anything I'm able to articulate yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were scum.

[Heartless]

Personally, what

I'm

wanting to use as a guide is the neighborhood meta. Given how inarticulately piss-y Cephrir got at ooba and I's conversation in the neighborhood about it, I think I was on the right track when I said scum were spread out over the neighborhoods.

If there is an all-town neighborhood, my best guess is that it's the Mayans.

[Heartless]

I would.

It depends on what TSO flips. If he ends up being scum, I think their chances of being scum drastically fall and I would look to Esp as the most likely scum in the Romans.

[Heartless]

So you think there is one scum in every neighborhood except Mayans and the reason you think this is because Cephrir got pissy at one of your conversations? Do you see how this line of reasoning seems poorly fleshed out or illogical and why it's disappointing that this is the best you and Anti have produced in the past three days?

You got any better ideas about where to look outside TSO? I'll hear them. Haven't heard any so far other than you negging on Anti, which I don't think qualifies. That's one of the reasons I don't think you're particularly pro-town right now.

[Heartless]

my neighbourhood is all town the first day the game

That's the story of this game.

Everyone's

neighborhoods are all town. The Roman one. The Chinese one. The Greek one. The Mayan one. It's nothing short of remarkable.

Is the logic absolutely bulletproof? No, but I feel like logic can only get so far in this game anyway and it's little things like this that make me think people who are so gung-ho about their neighborhoods have other motives.

[Heartless]

Heartless

I will freely admit that Anti and I are severely underachieving this game.

Part of the problem is that I haven't been able to really get myself happy with any town reads yet and I've struck out on all my scum reads so far. Anti's seemed to have a few moments of clarity because he picked up on red flags from Cephrir while I was fat and happy with a town read on him; trouble is, he seems really hit-and-miss since Ankamius flipped town and I think the data that's out there suggests farside is more likely to be town than not.

[Heartless]

mastin2

Unless FourTrouble agrees to target us with a vig tomorrow night, I would suggest you not give us bees.

[Heartless]

"One scum in each neighborhood" is my thing and I've been absent since F-16's modkill.

The more I look at this game the more strongly I think that, by the way. The

only

situation that breaks this principle that I might find plausible is the Greeks having two scum, vezok and TSO, but that seems like it's a bit of stretch.

My best theory at this point is that it's TSO, TWIE, and Esp.

[Heartless]

It's like everyone has suddenly been inflicted with a disease where they think I'm scum but not only can they not explain why, they're also convinced they

don't actually need to

because the only one who cares is me. It's like one of those studies in groupthink.

I'd point out that it's usually a bad sign when no-one can actually quantify why they're scumreading me, bar Imperium, who gave some nonsensical drivel, but the groupthink chariot drives on regardless of me pointing out all the holes in its wheels.

What's your read on vezokpiraka?

[Heartless]

CHINESE : Metal, Skybird, TWIE
NORSE:

The Mask

, Ace,

AP

MAYAN: Xombie, ZZZX, Mastin
ROMAN: Imperium,

Solar

, Bitmap, TD
HINDU:

Pere

, Farside, FT,

Anamikus

GREEK: Magua, Vezo,

Beast

, TSO
EGYPTIAN: ooba,

ceph

, heartless, andy

[Heartless]

Seems to point to Imperium-scum, Ace-town and one scum in Chinese, probably TWIE?

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

I copied and pasted that from the neighborhood PT. Updated a little.

CHINESE : Metal, Skybird, TWIE
NORSE:

The Mask

, Ace,

AP

MAYAN: Drixx, ZZZX, Mastin
ROMAN: Imperium,

Solar

, Espeonage, Zelink
HINDU:

Pere

, Farside, FT,

Anamikus

GREEK: Magua, Vezo,

Beast

, TSO
EGYPTIAN: ooba,

ceph

, heartless,

andy

[Heartless]

I think the chances are good the rest of the Hindus are town.

Is there anything in the neighborhood that makes you think vezok might be scum?

[Heartless]

Cephrir's reaction to it.

You weren't even there to see it. o.O

[Heartless]

Okay. So why do you believe in the neighborhood theory, TSO?

Could you do me a favor and quickly remind me what your scum reads are outside of TSO, please?

[Heartless]

We have time.

[Heartless]

(I mean in the day, go ahead and go to bed.)

[Heartless]

So, the way your reads fall out, there's one scum per neighborhood.

Why are you being such a pooh-pooher to me?

[Heartless]

Well I take that back. It seems like you think Metal Sonic is in grievous error when he promotes his neighborhood's towniness.

[Heartless]

Cephrir's reaction to it.

It's also a pretty easy thing to throw a gigantic fit about when it's stupid reasoning in the first place. I throw fits about things that are stupid as scum because they're stupid and free passion points. I don't see why Cephrir wouldn't do the same.

While you may disagree with the conclusion, I definitely don't think it's a "stupid" thing to at least speculate about. The neighborhood mechanic adds another dimension to the day play and, while I won't for a second pretend I'm an expert on balancing, it seems like the decision to either cluster scum together or spread them out would effect the balance.

I'm not exactly sure

what

to do with the information, but I don't think it should be ignored.

[Heartless]

There's a lot less skepticism in your neighborhood than I think should rationally exist.

[Heartless]

But you're making the assumption that there are no outliers at all and that's just a bad assumption to make.

It's less of an assumption and more of a pet theory for me. ^_^

[Heartless]

It's not particularly synergistic nor is there a notable degree of interaction in the main thread.

It doesn't look like a town bloc, swim like a town bloc, or quack like a town bloc.

[Heartless]

Then why does it seem like it's controlling your reads to a pretty significant extent?

Because I find it the most aesthetically pleasing and psychologically satisfying.

Also because I think part of the problem in this game is that people have this delusion they're in an all town neighborhood.

[Heartless]

If you adopt the position of someone who can't see what's going on in the neighborhood, it looks strange.

[Heartless]

If you adopt the position of someone who can't see what's going on in the neighborhood, it looks strange.

Because...?

OK, now you're just being obtuse.

[Heartless]

oh hey, i see we're posting....

what's going on here?

[Heartless]

The burden of proof seems to sit in two different places here.

[Heartless]

trying to base reads off of general dynamics of this game is going to be an exercise in futility.

i think tth's efforts are doomed...

[Heartless]

my impression of vezok when i was looking over this game earlier was that it would be a really ballsy gambit to do what he did with ceph

[Heartless]

i think the most damning evidence against twie is the meh read on ceph when confronted on it and the subsequent dicking around and eventual dropping it altogether

[Heartless]

i think the most damning evidence against twie is the meh read on ceph when confronted on it and the subsequent dicking around and eventual dropping it altogether

I don't think there's really anything good about TWIE's play but I'm still having trouble letting go of the Blonde "I can make myself confirmed town" thing, which would be a pretty impressive play from newscum, who, in his last game as scum, just sort of sat around and let himself get lynched.

yeah there's also the TWIE softclaiming on skybird behalf

[Heartless]

i thought brantz was a scumbutt and the thing you just pointed out actually looks pretty bad

[Heartless]

also, yeah, i'm going to repeat what tth said and tell mastin not to give us bees unless she's coordinating w/ someone else and plans on having that someone else target us

[Heartless]

my impression of vezok when i was looking over this game earlier was that it would be a really ballsy gambit to do what he did with ceph

I agree.

lol

i was going to follow up this thought with:

"but i wouldn't put it past him, ESPECIALLY if ceph coached him to do it."

[Heartless]

uuuuughglg;khalkdjflk;dsa;lf;lkeasfoiwjajof

tso's ate makes me want to townread him

...even though i've seen him use the whole "ur so bad" thing as a scum tactic before...

[Heartless]

shit,,,,,

the fuck is wrong with me?

[Heartless]

Looking at the VCA and based on what I've read.

Vote: heartless

I endorse this product and/or service.

oh look, you still don't know how to read me

how exciting

[Heartless]

By the by, and I'm sorry I forgot to say this earlier, my role is a modified governor. It was why I had issue with heartless claim.

so i'm guessing you'll self vote after we prove it?

[Heartless]

Ankamius [VAMANA, FIFTH AVATAR OF VISHNU], Temporary Action-Immune Redirector, town-aligned, lynched day 3
Andrius [OSIRIS, BROKEN GOD OF THE AFTERLIFE], Partially Action-Immune Vote Modifier, town-aligned, killed Night 3

^^^^permutations of the same passive

[Heartless]

for the gov. claim? that's null anyway.

[Heartless]

also, tth is scummy?

[Heartless]

oh so in an effort to not misread me AGAIN, you instead misread tth

spreading the joy

[Heartless]

oh fucking a

metal sonic just day vig us

[Heartless]

told you TTH was scummy

mmmmm no

it's a bop argument

[Heartless]

which falls pretty short since there have been a grand total of zero scum lynches this game

[Heartless]

You have been on all wagons

what wagons?

seriously

ank is the only one i can think of

[Heartless]

I dunno about you but I was pretty impressed with the day 1 lynch

And I wasn't even there!

you were impressed w/ a last-second sk flashwagon...?

[insert thorface here]

[Heartless]

Gun to my head right now I'd go with Skybird, Ankamius anddddddd beast?

Skybird is weird.

If shes scum her role is like really powerful.

But like because of her role it doesnt make sense to ask people to vote you?

But like... it doesnt make sense as either alignment?

But it makes less sense as scum. And I kinda wanna call her town for it?

i said soft claim and this is what i was talking about

[Heartless]

rtft

[Heartless]

seriously... i posted a wall (or my definition of a "wall") twice

[Heartless]

and if we're going to get shitty and hammer on misreads, i can gladly go back to that fucking godawful gladiate

[Heartless]

The why would I havr claimed I protected ceph night 1? Ceph wasn't in danger of getting lynched.

the second part actually makes a gambit make MORE sense because it gives MORE payoff with LESS risk. if ceph were to flip, it would look bad. but if it didn't look like ceph was flipping any time soon the town cred for you two would be worth it.

[Heartless]

VOTE: vezok

[Heartless]

tso, vote with me if you want to live.

[Heartless]

oh, and also. two town docs already flipped. there's that too.

[Heartless]

and being gung ho about the greeks being all town when someone said it was mostly just beast posting in the hood pt. and going back on that for consensus wagon tso here for little reason.

[Heartless]

But Ceph could have been in danger of being shot by something else - there had just been a Third Party flip.

/side note

i don't think there are any other racists. i think the whole "racist" thing was dram's way of making the SK win condition more doable.

[Heartless]

Do you think Pumbaa rolecopped Mask N1? All signs from Pumbaa D2 suggest this is the case, so the scum team would have known a doc was in the game. In that situation, you think pikari openly claimed to have protected Pumbaa for no good reason, other than potential WIFOM if Pumbaa flipped down the line... Even at the risk of going into a 1v1 with an actual town protective role? Like, a move that would have to have been calculated assuming people would react in a particular way (because if people reacted like, oh I don't know, how you're currently reacting to it, then it would be all for naught, right?) and just for the potential of getting some town cred that would probably be quesitoned down the line (or possibly even forgotten by the time Pumbaa flipped, unless people went back and looked at it).

they didn't necessarily know about f-16's role, though

and i think the reason for claiming would be pretty simple.

vezok claims to protect ceph. no kill. everyone jumps to the conclusion ceph and vezok are town.

[Heartless]

And the fact that you're voting him because maybe he's scum trying to WIFOM seems really absurd to me. I also don't understand where you're getting "two town docs flipped" from. I see Mask. Who else?

revisit that TSO reads progression. it's a doozy.

[Heartless]

also, zelink, for your benefit

Forgot this:

[Heartless]

well, now that i look at it again, it's not a doc per se but it is a "once-in-a-while" global doc

the setup spec isn't really what gets me anyway.

[Heartless]

So your theory is that scum chose not to kill N1? Or what? Because if pikari is scum and they actually got their kill blocked, that plan doesn't work, does it?

maybe one of the "action-immunes" or bp's that everyone and their dog seems to have upon fulfilling a certain condition (ft, mastin)
roleblock
jailkeep
redirect

it's a role madness game. take your pick.

[Heartless]

i dont see a problem with multiple docs. the more the merrier, right?
of course, scum would be complaining. wouldn't they?

SHUT UP AND LISTEN FOR A SECOND, METAL

[Heartless]

hey farside

why dont you ask vezok what HIS reasons for voting ank were?

have fun finding them in his ISO there.

[Heartless]

it baffles me that you understand that there are many possibilities to explain the missing kill/s N1, but you think scum's grand plan was, "hey let's claim I protected my buddy and then people will not question it and assume we're both town!!"

well

it worked

[Heartless]

ftr, i think vezok is being completely truthful about his role and that he did target ceph n1.

[Heartless]

you are fucking hopeless

[Heartless]

seriously, i hope i'm wrong about tso so i can be the asshole here and not all of you.

[Heartless]

townreading tso

too much groupthink
too little resistance to the wagon

the stuff imperium pointed out looks kind of bad but it's also kind of circumstantial

[Heartless]

If you legitimately think pikari is scum for other reasons, then state them, because what you're pushing right now makes about as much sense as people who wear hats indoors. There's no sun! What are you doing? Don't tell me it's a fashion statement.

TELL ME ZELINK, WHY IS HE VOTING TSO RIGHT NOW WHEN HE'S BEEN SWEARING UP AND DOWN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS ALL TOWN

OH, IS IT ALL SO THAT HE KNOWS WHO TO "SHEEP" WHEN TSO FLIPS?

/WINKWINKWINK NOTHING GOING ON THERE

[Heartless]

METAL

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S CAVING ON THE TSO WHITEKNIGHT NOW?

[Heartless]

METAL

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S CAVING ON THE TSO WHITEKNIGHT NOW?

because of me and zelink
*looks at the obvious*

/thought experiment

tso is lynched

flips town

you and zelink now owe him a "sheep"

THAT'S what vezok was focusing on

[Heartless]

I don't think he's been swearing up and down that his neighborhood is all town,

simple fact checking will tell you that he was

also, "changing your mind" when it's expedient to do so IS scummy

[Heartless]

hello brick wall

i'm antihero

how's your day going today?

[Heartless]

... No, not really. Like, all of... absolutely no one thought pikari protecting Pumbaa was the reason for the lack of kill.

magua did

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6601383

[Heartless]

latter means "second". the second thing.

Cephrir: Don't like. Don't like the spammy nature, don't like the frequently drawn out off-topic posts. Blah blah D1 lie detector claim blah blah. However, given that I don't think mastin was roleblocked performing the mafia kill, Cephrir being protected by vezok is the best hypothesis for no kill.

it's pretty unequivocal, zelink. he bought into the theory.

[Heartless]

Also, even if I did grant you this, that would just mean amending it to... one person total thought this, and only because other theories weren't on the table yet.

Whoop-de-doo, I guess?

it proves that the scum motivation for the gambit isn't ridiculous or implausible like your and magua are trying to paint it

[Heartless]

i know, scum totally wouldn't make their rolecop buddy w/ an extra kill action immune

so far out there

[Heartless]

Congratulations! You caught me good. How did you figure I'm the best scum mastermind there ever was? Who did foil every single part of my plan? Yes I protected Ceph because his role was too good for us and I needed him alive to do stuff. When we saw that our killed disappeared I decided to claim to gain town cred for me and ceph. After that FT made our day worse by killing ceph, but all was not lost, because I had the incredible idea of voting someone who I openly said I townread at the start of the day in exchange for a gentleman's agreement of sheeping knowing I'll control more votes tomorrow.

yeah, pretty much

[Heartless]

But in my incredibly excited state I made some mistakes. I should have never said I consider TSO town, because I could've coasted way easier. My genius is oh so limited in only grand schemes. I mess the details every single time.

why does calling tso town make you town?

like scum don't call town who's in a bad spot town for towncred once they flip? what's your point?

[Heartless]

Firstly, the vigs we have seen were me and FT dayvigging.

i thought that andy kill last night was ft.

[Heartless]

the only reason I am not insta lynhing you right now is because of your damn role

as you can see zelink, vezok roleclaiming as scum has NO BENEFIT to him.

at all.

totally not.

[Heartless]

actually... why is vezok a doctor alive??

hey zelink, you can try your hand at this question too

[Heartless]

oh? you've piqued my interest.

is my buddy ft or metal sonic?

[Heartless]

if you keep reading, i take it back

i know you've got to get your little shitty, smart ass snipes in there though, nacho so go ahead

[Heartless]

townreading tso

too much groupthink
too little resistance to the wagon

the stuff imperium pointed out looks kind of bad but it's also kind of circumstantial

Remember when mastin read AP based on wagon dynamics and it turned out to be wrong? I remember that. That was frustrating.

i don't really want to take us back to the "sk isn't groupscum" thing but i will if i have to

[Heartless]

if you keep reading, i take it back

i know you've got to get your little shitty, smart ass snipes in there though, nacho so go ahead

it's not my intention to be an asshole and I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way.

ignore me. i'm in a shitty mood right now and i'm actually probably the one who's the asshole here so yeah

[Heartless]

I don't find it particularly unlikely that vezok would get bored of waiting for a lynch and vote someone to set himself up for an "I told you so" the next day. His actions occasionally lack consistency not because he's scum, but because he doesn't approach the game the same way many other players do and instead ends up doing things on impulse (like TD, but smaller scale and less bad).

ok...

you can play devils advocate on any of these and most stuff can cut both ways if you really want it to. but i think the lynch for today is hardly decided yet and if you REALLY wanted a mastin/us lynch you would keep going. this hardly seems like the time you would fold, especially with so many people not voting and sitting on their hands.

[Heartless]

Is TSO scumreading us? o.O

[Heartless]

I keep hearing people say that and I must have missed where that occurred.

[Heartless]

No offense meant to Anti, but don't associate me with Heartless. I'm bad, I'll admit that, but at least I'm not pushing for a vezok lynch and would lynch TSO to stop such a thing.

no offense taken

if i'm wrong about vezok + tso i'll eat my crow, have a snickers bar for dessert, take a good shit and get on w/ my life

[Heartless]

You refuted one game out of four.
Please continue, I have about 50 more links available to me if you somehow manage to get through that.

even w/ the meta logic, making declarations w/ no reasoning is null in that case and negates the point about ank

however, it still does not negate the point about protecting ceph.

[Heartless]

It kinda disappoints me that Heartless gave up on me - I understand they had no real reason to back me up, and it's hard to back an unknown when you start taking flak for daring to suggest they're town, but still. Just a little disappointing.

what's this now?

[Heartless]

Yeah, but I think #7757 did a pretty good job of negating that point!

I would like you to explain vezoks motivations in claiming to save his partner day two in the way he did. Note: I never believed he was the cause for the missing night kill night one, but the way in which he did it didn't sound to me like someone going oh hey partner I saved you wink wink.

really? you don't really have to go that far out on a limb for this.

pretty much imp's rebuttal is "nuh uh" which i don't find particularly compelling.

at this point, i think they're just giving vezok the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things b/c they want this tso thing to go though.

[Heartless]

i swear i have zero fucking patience for condescending shit right now

[Heartless]

i'll do you one better. i was in serum and steel.

f16 got lynched for a lot more than the doc claim. namely A FUCKING SURVIVOR CLAIM.

also, vezok never claimed doc this game. once.

[Heartless]

And you're right, he didn't explicitly claim doc when he initially claimed the protect. Though he did use very specific and not-very-ambiguous words like "protect" and "save". I mean, I suppose you could theoretically argue that he was speaking metaphorically, and he protected him through the power of prayer or something, but the implications of using those words seems obvious to me.

what vezok is claiming is rolestopper.

not doc.

[Heartless]

i dropped that point so long ago...

[Heartless]

ok, that works both ways, buddy.

you can't say "HE'S NOT A REPLICA ROLE" and then turn around and say "vezok would know NOT to claim a replica role and therefore he's not scum"

[Heartless]

in which case, you have no real point except that he could be scum who rolestopped a partner N1.. which is about as compelling as saying Magua could be scum because he posted a picture in his first post

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

ok

sanity check

you're a scum rolestopper.

who do you target?

[Heartless]

if you don't want to come off as condescending you wouldn't ham-fistedly cram your opinions into what you're ostensibly saying is my opinion

[Heartless]

there's really no reason to be a prick about seeing the rabbit or the duck.

regardless of which side you come down on, it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as you and nacho are making it out to be. the whole "he wouldn't do something like THAT" is really WIFOM-y and related to the "too scummy to be scum" argument.

[Heartless]

whereas there are arguments to the contrary.

show me

[Heartless]

If I can interject for a minute: the arguments over the rolestopper are both going to be circular in nature and I don't see much coming out of this discussion.

[Heartless]

I mean, even if it happens to be the case, your argument really looks no better than it could have happened, so it did.

In all honesty, that's exactly what both arguments boil down to. The conclusion is stated and the evidence is given to fit the conclusion. In Anti's case, he's failing to prove scum intent whereas in you and Imperium's case, you're overstating the weakness of the opposite case.

I reviewed vezok's activity regarding Cephrir Day 1 and this is what I found. I was hoping it would help, but it didn't really.

Spoiler:

Ceph, don't tell me you're scum with Ms.

Cephrir is not scum. He's being pushed by scum as cw to ace.

Here are the reasons why Cephrir is scum and why we are lynching him today:

How about we lynch you? Nearly everything you said about cephrir can be said about you and in your case it was with scummy intentions and could hardly be attributed to a town mind process.

I'm not lynching ceph day 1 when we have like 4 heavy lurkers.

Fuck your egos and lynch scum not inflate your self worth.

I'm not lynching ceph day 1 when we have like 4 heavy lurkers.

Fuck your egos and lynch scum not inflate your self worth.

Since when did lynching lurkers equal lynching scum?

I think you're dumb on purpose.

Lynching lurkers is better than lynching town who's actually doing something.

Does anyone in the Greek neighborhood have any insight from Night 1 about vezok's action?

I understand the scum motivation. He's scum who claimed it for some sort of potential town cred for him and Pumbaa. OK.
I hope you understand the potential town motivation as well - seeing no night kill and thinking he was responsible. OK.

Both of these are possible.

I agree with that.

[Heartless]

Right, except there are actual arguments for why the potential town intent is more likely

Well I wouldn't call them "arguments" so much as maybe "thought experiments"?

Anti's saying he was rolestopping a very powerful scum special in order to prevent vigilante kills and investigative guilties. He then saw a no-kill and claimed the next day in order to establish himself and Cephrir as town. You're saying he was just snowed by Cephrir and he was protecting a town read. He saw there was no kill and legitimately thought Cephrir was the scum nightkill target. Either is plausible and has sufficient motive.

Unfortunately, as vezok's ISO is very light on explanation, it's going to be difficult to tell.

[Heartless]

mastin, I suppose you wouldn't consider giving Metal Sonic your bees?

[Heartless]

Wait, I got that backwards. I meant giving vezok your bees.

[Heartless]

- The way in which it happened. If you're unsure what I mean by this, I can talk about it in a bit more depth (though not right now since I have to go somewhere). If you disagree with this statement, then I'd like to know why.

I am unsure what you mean by this.

- The fact that he could have very easily been counter-claimed and forced into a 1v1 (even if rolestopper isn't strictly counter-claimed by doc, it was still a possibly he had to have considered). This is supported by the fact that pikari himself has counter-claimed a doc fake-claim in a somewhat recent game (yes, rolestopper isn't strictly a doc, but a doc could have easily counter-claimed and forced a 1v1 with him, that had to have crossed his mind if he's scum claiming a protect).

This works off the mass assumption of role symmetry. As Antihero's already seen, that's a little hard to defend in a 25 player role madness game.

If he's scum, we agree he did it for potential town cred for him and Pumbaa. We agree rolestopping a scum buddy is a good idea as scum. The reasons for thinking this is actually the case and that he claimed this D2 include:

As far as I can gather, most of the speculation here originates from Cephrir's flip which includes abilities like rolecop, vote drain, and an extra kill, none of which are anything to sneeze at. If I were coordinating night actions, I would definitely tell a rolestopper to be on Ceph.

- It was unnecessary. Neither pikari nor Pumbaa were in any immediate danger.

I don't think this is entirely true. There was F-16 and his wall case against Cephrir. vezok himself was in kind of a lukewarm null zone. This argument also assumes that the purpose of a gambit is to get scum out of immediate danger, which I think needs proof.

- Scum know their kill was actually blocked. This means any potential town credit he got from it was temporary at best (and would have disappeared when likely alternatives were given).

This argument assumes gambits are always meant for the long-term. I don't see how scum taking a free pass isn't plausible, even if it is just for one day.

- It links scum together in the minds of town if one of them flips. I suppose this isn't a strong argument since it is WIFOM by nature (you could potentially argue that the fact I think this makes it an unlikely scum move actually makes it a likely scum move), but I think this is the kind of thing scum isn't likely to do on a whim (and it would have been on a whim since it happened at the very start of D2). There are safer ways to protect a buddy, and I think it's more likely it would be a last resort sort of thing rather than right out the gates D2 if they're scum together.

This point would be less compelling by scum having day talk, and they probably do.

[Heartless]

Antihero played with me a bunch of times. Even modded a game I played in. He knows how to read me. That slot needs to be vigged.

"a bunch" = suburban warfare and serum and steel and..... what else?
also i don't have any of your scum meta

[Heartless]

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

[Heartless]

I'd also disagree with the second statement: what have I given Vezok the benefit of the doubt about, exactly?

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

o_O

Damn. There goes that clean game.

[Heartless]

also, gotta' love that you're calling for our vig based on an associative even though you said you don't think tso is scum

I don't think it's an unreasonable to assume that vezok developed a scum read on TSO when TSO started pushing him, especially considering the only reason he suspects you is because you're pushing him.

Actually, I do think it's pretty unreasonable.

The much more accessible theory here is us being scum is that TSO is town and we're scum whiteknighting him right now for town cred when he flips.

[Heartless]

Nope! I need protection for tonight!

also, prod dodge

[Heartless]

the flipless circlejerk continues...

[Heartless]

the flipless circlejerk continues...

can we lynch this shit?

Like ffs.

you really blame me?

ok...

[Heartless]

I have addressed your slot and asked you several questions, which in the midst of you guys' epic prod-dodging and just in general refusing to offer up why your opinion is more valid than other people's and acting like you guys are god, you keep ignoring.

oh, we're playing the righteous indignation game now?

that's always fun

i'm guessing this is tammy? b/c otherwise this read makes no sense coming from someone who was in joss whedon

[Heartless]

lol tammy that's what you're mad at me for?

yeah, i'm an asshole. i thought you knew that already.

[Heartless]

Yu do have another head right? Who's supposed to be somewhat impressive and analytical, right?

yeah, i actually think that's working against her this game. 343 pages, i can see how things get overwhelming

so instead what you're getting this game is my low iq brute force gut approach.

but i'm here for a little bit, tammy. if i'm not answering your questions, it's b/c i'm not reading enough of the thread to know. don't take it personally.

what's up?

[Heartless]

alright tammy let's see what we got here...

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

There's a lot less skepticism in your neighborhood than I think should rationally exist.

It's not particularly synergistic nor is there a notable degree of interaction in the main thread.

It doesn't look like a town bloc, swim like a town bloc, or quack like a town bloc.

I'd also like to talk about this.

I asked you to tell me how much skepticism you think you should be seeing that you're not seeing. I don't know why you ignored that.

I'd also like to talk about the second point. Nacho did a good job of pointing out that this is incorrect, but I'm interested in talking to you about the impetus behind the claim.

Until falcon was modkilled there was plenty, and more than I'd have liked interaction between the two of us.

As for the others. Are you actually making a claim we, as a neighborhood, aren't interacting enough? You do realize that we are the only slot in the neighborhood not to have been replaced right? How much interaction did you suppose we should have done with bitmap when he portaled day one and lurked then got replaced day two? Or TD who lurked a lot then got replaced?

and considering we have a neighborhood where we can interact, I don't see why us not overly interacting inn the main thread would be an issue. How much in the main thread interaction have you or anyone really been doing in the main thread.

I also don't get the town block accusation. We never claimed to be a town block. I, in particular, don't advocate town blocks in the first place. You can town read someone and not be in a town block. Zelink and U.S. seem to be on the same page, but not exactly sure where espy stands as he's a bit behind.

Do you want is to have skepticism or do you want us to be a town block? And there are neighborhoods here who are claiming all town neighborhoods with a much higher degree than we are, and they're not town blocking, so some of this feels like kitchen sink for the sole purpose of making arguments against us but that don't really make a whole lot of sense when looked at in context.

You might not feel this way any more, and that's cool, but I still want you to explain where you were coming from because I'm trying like hell to get a read on you.

'mkay, the neighborhood stuff is mostly outguessing the mod from what i gather. just by the fact that scum being spread out would be more psychologically pleasing to game design, i would GUESS that dram spread the scum out but that's really nothing more than a guess and i think tth is putting too much stock into trying to out WIFOM the mod here. it's entirely possible dram would try to be cute and subvert meta. my gut tells me that's not the case since this is his first mass neighborhood game (game where everyone's in a neighborhood) and the other mass neighborhood game i was in was pretty evenly spread, but again, those points are really WIFOM-y.

re: my roman hate
my first thought when i saw the nk was "why is imperium keeping on being a universal town read and not dying and why are the claimed vigs keep not dying either; how the hell did andy end up being the scum nk." MY instinct was that there was a rat in the roman neighborhood who was pulling the strings and that somehow translated into >>>> andy kill for a reason i didn't understand yet. yeah, wasn't really that well thought out but that's what it was.
i'm not really sure what the whole "group theory" thing is since i personally don't use those kinds of tells b/c they require more cognitive resources than i have at my disposal and more speculation than i care to do. i do know tth does from time to time and my eyes glaze over b/c i don't understand them. i could try to explain it to you, but i wouldn't do it right.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

Ankamius, TSO, theaceofspades, farside22, ooba, Heartless, TheWayItEnds, Andrius

i agree
i also agree w/ this order

the game will end before you reach farside

What happened to this view of the game?

looking more

my desire to lynch anyone not in the roman neighborhood is at exactly zero

I'd really appreciate you articulating why. I told you I'd like you to try to articulate why you'd wouldn't be surprised if we flipped scum, but I don't think you did.

I spent some time looking over Imperium and I don't have anything I'm able to articulate yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were scum.

There's a lot less skepticism in your neighborhood than I think should rationally exist.

What type of skepticism do you think there should be in our nieghborhood that you aren't seeing?

I have a really hard time accepting that both of the above quotes are actually true statements.

in order:
>ankamius flipped town so that bloc needed to be burned to the ground
>covered that last post
>[insert whatever tth says here]

[Heartless]

why is tammy in this game? hi tammy <3

this is the most metal sonic post

ever

[Heartless]

By the way, if I had to guess, he used the ability on TD some time after the lie detector gambit (which would have meant some time in the last 24 hours of D1).

He probably didn't notice anything was wrong until after D1 ended.

you should say who you think is scum

then

...like...

vote them

[Heartless]

Thank you for the kind advice.

i like being helpful

[Heartless]

Speaking of which, I'll NOT read the thread in its entirety.

heresy!

BURN THE WITCH

[Heartless]

how mastin and nacho are having this hard of a time getting a bead on me is kind of beyond me

so magua, you think egyptian neighborhood is 3/4 scum? just clarifying here.

[Heartless]

oh wow, look who crawled out of the woodwork for the unopposed wagon

[Heartless]

Nope!

But I do think it contains 2, and I do think that both you and ooba have super strong reasons to be that second!

these are...?

neither of us are scum by the way

[Heartless]

Except you're currently voting vezok, whom, if you wander to the previous page and look at my reads, I see as one of the town holy trinity, and can tell you that pretty much nothing you say will change my mind, so I wouldn't bother there.

fine, enjoy being stubborn in being wrong

[Heartless]

I'm more enjoying the way you concentrate on defense rather than, oh, I don't know, who scum is or the actual questions I actually wanted to answer that you just blitzed right by.

oh fucking get over yourself

seriously

i've given reads and i don't see any question here:

Heartless: It's D4, and I have no reason to believe that Antihero is town. So I must assume that he's not. This is a PoE read of sorts, and I'm not in a position to explain it well. You can call it my Imperium-read-if-F16-had-not-townread-them-so-hard read.

[Heartless]

i also.... don't see any questions

i'm going to enjoy this

cataclysm: heartless

[Heartless]

it makes all the annoying people voteless

and it makes me smile

[Heartless]

that's scum rhetoric

[Heartless]

Ankamius (9): Ooba, Mastin2, Heartless, Metal Sonic,

VezokPiraka

, Magua, Fourtrouble, Drixx, Ankamius
TSO (7): Metal Sonic, Imperium, Zel1nk,

vezokpiraka

, ooba, Skybird, ZZZX
Ooba (4): Espeonage, Magua,

Vezok

, Mastin2
Heartless (7): MnemonicDevice, Magua, Otolia, Zelink, Skybird, Metal Sonic,

Vezokpiraka

look who shows up OVER and OVER on wagons with no explanation

where did the ooba vote come from?

[Heartless]

I wish you didn't do that. It doesn't exactly help your case.

I've been trying to get a conversation going with one of the Imperium heads but they're both busy or MIA.

I don't really think you're scum at the moment, but you're not exactly doing yourself any favours.

What are your thoughts on Ace-slot (Otolia)?

oh, and when i said "that's scum rhetoric" i meant this. the passive-aggressiveness. as if using my role is scummy, but you won't just directly call it that but shift the responsibility over to me.

it's helping my cause because people like magua and mastin have ass-backwards as fuck reads and our role now allows me not to have to argue with them. not to mention i have absolutely no qualms about taking away skybird's vote. or either of the new replacements for that matter.

metal sonic is a bonus.

[Heartless]

I don't think the people voting you are going to take kindly to being voteless

oh yeah...

what are they going to do?

vote me?

[Heartless]

also, i don't take too kindly to people being stubborn for no reason so i guess we're all even

[Heartless]

even after vezok's scum flip? don't think so.

[Heartless]

nahnahnahnahnahnah

you know what?

VOTE: zelink

[Heartless]

you flood this thread w/ so much bullshit and have so little to show for all of it

all the while, you're coasting on everyone else's hate to facilitate those lynches while remaining as detached as possible

[Heartless]

i've heard this all before. i get it magua, you don't like me. totally understandable, b/c not many ppl do.

[Heartless]

ooooo i made people so mad
a day in the life i guess /sigh

nah, the lynch thresholds adjust

[Heartless]

Heartless, could you give me a summary of where your reads are at now?

quick and dirty what i said in the neighborhood pt a couple days ago

best guess from me is vezok, esp, and skybird. maybe zelink.

[Heartless]

Heartless, could you give me a summary of where your reads are at now?

skybird's another wagon happy one whose vote on us came out of absolutely nowhere and at the time she was acting like she was suspicious of us to begin w/ though that scumread doesn't actually have a traceable origin when you go back in the ISO

[Heartless]

hold on a sec... i lied.

I really think Metal Sonic is scum. Along with the things I mentioned earlier, there's his very early decision that our neighborhood is all town. IMO that decision was made before he really could know because of the limited interactions. In the neighborhood, MS has been trying to direct the play of the others in the hood. He got very mad at TWIE when he replaced in because TWIE also thought MS looked scummy. He did threaten to day-vig TWIE in the hood. I also feel his "guaranteeing" me as town was to get me to feel ingratiated to him.

I am also suspicious of Heartless and Mastin. Verzok was a town read for me that has slipped lately due to his interactions with MS.

I feel Zelink is town. He's put forth a lot of effort to solve the game and generate content. I feel TWIE is town based on his play in the game thread and comments in the neighborhood. Imperium is also town based on play. I was town-reading bitmap and I haven't seen enough of Espeonage to determine if I should continue town-reading that slot. TAOS was scummy to me earlier in the game. It bothered me that we could never seem to get him lynched because I can't figure out why. (I guess the same could be said about me. Everyone is scum reading me so why the hell haven't I been lynched yet. lol)

I've been scum reading TSO, mastin, and MS. My mastin read has softened a bit.

I'm suspicious of Heartless. I was in the middle of rereading their ISO when my computer died.

that's quite the menagerie...

i have to go now, but i guess i'll try to make sense of it later.

[Heartless]

Someday, this hydra will not be known as "Anti."

That day might be a while from now.

[Heartless]

I don't really have anything to add here.
Anti thinks he's going get scum lynched here and everyone will see the light and the game will turn around. Even if we flipped

and

TSO

and

ooba all flipped town right now, I think people are married to their PoE's to straighten up and fly right at this point.

*shrug* If anyone can do it, Anti can. But I don't have nearly enough of a grasp on this game to be of any help. Sorry.

[Heartless]

Someday, this hydra will not be known as "Anti."

That day might be a while from now.

TTH, what are your thoughts right now?

I could make up a bunch of reads, but they would be exactly that. Made up and just based on intuition and guesswork that probably doesn't make sense.

[Heartless]

Heartless, did you both agree to do what your slot just did? Can you explain why you felt it was necessary?

Anti's in the driver's seat here. From what it looks like, I think that was an appropriate use of the ultimate.

Are you still scumreading Metal Sonic?

[Heartless]

Thank you. I'm trying to figure out if it was a scum move or a town move. To me, to say it was an appropriate use of the ultimate means you feel you are move valuable alive. Scum would definitely say/feel that way. I'm having trouble seeing the town motivation behind it.

Town are also more valuable dead than alive. The argument cuts both ways. :\

I'm still scumreading MS but Espe pointed out something about MS always likes to be in-charge as both alignments but even moreso as town. I've did some meta-diving on him and he does like to be a dictator. I'm just not convinced that he is doing it from a town alignment in this game.

So day vigging scum does nothing for you? How does that factor into your read?

[Heartless]

I agree that Heartless' action more probably comes from scum. I would like to see them here as well pushing their top scum read.

Alright-y.

VOTE: Skybird

[Heartless]

VOTE: heartless

lol

[Heartless]

Otolia, claim your list of actions now please.

---

Magua, since neither of them are VI's, would they have made post 2803 as scum?

In a vacuum, I would read 2803 as town.

However, they did not actually burn it D1. Nor did they burn it D2, nor did they burn it D3.

D4, they burned it in the most antitown way possible.

So the progression that I see is Heartless saying, "Hey, this power of ours is really antitown, we should use it," then not using it, then purposefully using it to be antitown.

There is a massive disconnect there.

And Heartless' posts since then have essentially just been trolling the thread. They figured they were going to get lynched and are now just seeing if they can survive till tonight.

WHAT YOU JUST LINKED WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOST ANTI TOWN WAY TO USE OUR POWER

HOW IS IT ANTI TOWN TO USE IT ON A SLOT WE KNOW IS TOWN

ANSWER ME THAT

[Heartless]

Otolia, have you had a chance to read enough to have an opinion on who scum is?

your scumreads make absolutely no sense together and you're scumreading a day vig who shot scum

[Heartless]

Everyone was scum reading him before he did that.

so that makes him more likely to actually be scum? popular opinion?
also, we were one of those people, something to think about

He confidently stated that scum have daytalk.

that's b/c the neighborhoods have daytalk. it doesn't make sense the neighborhood pts would be open and the scum pts wouldn't. we've been over this and i know ms isn't the only one who's acting like this is almost a given.

is that it?

[Heartless]

Heartless just destroyed any hope we had of having a good discussion so there's that.

PPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

i just took away the vote you had no intention of using wisely anyway.

...i'm stopping you from discussing what a load of shit...

[Heartless]

i don't recall a claim and i don't recall twie explicitly outing.
where did either of these happen?

[Heartless]

also, i have no interest in contrasting you and metal's hilariously bad reads with vezok's change with the winds of convenience as it shouldn't be that hard to spot

[Heartless]

well that would make you wrong on multiple counts. thanks for sharing.

[Heartless]

TWIE starts it in 6162

Skybird starts responding in 6201.

Skybird's anger at TWIE outting elements of her role reads as sincere.

the response looks pretty measured and calm and twie hardly "outed". so kind of wondering about your definition of "anger"

[Heartless]

Heartless, people were scum reading him because he was acting weird. At least a couple of the people that replaced in wondered why he wasn't lynched D1. Bitmap took him into his PT because he wanted to try and figure out if MS was scum. Bitpmap never decided whether he was leaning town or scum on MS after that time period.

Could you give me a post number where you stated that you thought scum have daytalk? Because honestly the only person I remember mentioning it was Metal Sonic. I don't remember anyone else chiming in and saying, yes, scum most likely has day talk because <reasons>.

in the top right, there's a search function
search "daytalk"

there's 15 hits. both magua and imperium have posts about scum having daytalk. i'm not linking them b/c i'm lazy as shit.

[Heartless]

top left, there's a search function

i forgot which way "L" faced when i did my finger trick that time

[Heartless]

Magua, fine, I'll move on.

Heartless, you've already shown you can't read me correctly. I was pissed when I read TWIE's comment.

jeez, that's your pissed?

...


what are you on thorazine?

[Heartless]

Beyond this, she was pushing for Cephrir to be shot by FourTrouble at the time. And not in a "Shoot one of the people in this group" way, but in a "Cephrir is scum, shoot him" way.

well, this didn't happen... ever.

in fact

when ceph got loverized to ozgin, she opted to keep voting no lynch even while implicitly calling ceph scum.

[Heartless]

I tend to walk away from the computer a lot and do a lot of reformatting of responses. I try to never just let my anger go.

yeah, that's probably what i should do. but instead i choose to be a sarcastic dick. i like making bad choices.

[Heartless]

well, this didn't happen... ever.

in fact

when ceph got loverized to ozgin, she opted to keep voting no lynch even while implicitly calling ceph scum.

This part is true! I was wrong!

So there's that.

(But then I thought about it, and I found it weird that you remembered this fact but not remembering Skybird's-role-outting stuff. Which doesn't make sense.)

Also, I still want you dead. So there's also that. But, you were right about this.

i didn't remember it. i went to skybird's iso and typed "ceph" in my control+f

these board have such awesome features.

[Heartless]

magua, if you promise to reverse literally every single one of your reads when we flip, i will self-vote